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100644 Binary files a/src/assets/images/www-life-path.png and b/src/assets/images/www-life-path.png differ diff --git a/src/config/config.json b/src/config/config.json index 4dd296e7..43e4a1a3 100755 --- a/src/config/config.json +++ b/src/config/config.json @@ -43,7 +43,7 @@ "metadata": { "meta_author": "Sovereign Engineering", - "meta_image": "/images/SEC-07-smp.png", + "meta_image": "/images/SEC-07-smp.webp", "meta_description": "The program that brought you Blossom, Nutzaps, Wikifreedia, Nsite, TollGate, Zapstore, and more..." } } diff --git a/src/content/sections/testimonial.md b/src/content/sections/testimonial.md index 71760570..c79bab1a 100644 --- a/src/content/sections/testimonial.md +++ b/src/content/sections/testimonial.md @@ -27,14 +27,14 @@ testimonials: - name: 'Tim Bouma' designation: 'Safebox' - avatar: '/images/tim-bouma-avatar.png' + avatar: '/images/tim-bouma-avatar.webp' npub: 'npub1q6mcr8tlr3l4gus3sfnw6772s7zae6hqncmw5wj27ejud5wcxf7q0nx7d5' noteid: 'nevent1qqsgfy2hscuw4lufwz7djfkql3yccvs7ypkh30gzh95nmmslcs3ednqpp4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzpwa4mkswz4t8j70s2s6q00wzqv7k7zamxrmj2y4fs88aktcfuf68akcsrw' content: "Don't miss the opportunity of a lifetime." - name: 'Arjen' designation: 'Tollgate' - avatar: '/images/arjen-avatar.jpg' + avatar: '/images/arjen-avatar.webp' npub: 'npub1hw6amg8p24ne08c9gdq8hhpqx0t0pwanpae9z25crn7m9uy7yarse465gr' noteid: 'nevent1qqs0qd3xuqstgqryxzv6n8nqsz558ufyfg9e46d72et5cxr0xysaxaqpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzpwa4mkswz4t8j70s2s6q00wzqv7k7zamxrmj2y4fs88aktcfuf68akcsrw' content: 'Sovereign Engineering has proven to be a place where the foundations of the internet are being redefined.' diff --git a/src/data/common-slides/2-hours-of-conversation.jpeg b/src/data/common-slides/2-hours-of-conversation.jpeg deleted file mode 100644 index 99f8a95b..00000000 Binary files a/src/data/common-slides/2-hours-of-conversation.jpeg and /dev/null differ diff --git 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index 5b168916..00000000 Binary files a/src/data/common-slides/wide-open-sea.jpeg and /dev/null differ diff --git a/src/data/highlights.png b/src/data/highlights.png deleted file mode 100644 index 8bb5270f..00000000 Binary files a/src/data/highlights.png and /dev/null differ diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/00 - Teaser - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/00 - Teaser - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index 4b0a8a82..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/00 - Teaser - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,37 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "Teaser / Test Recording" (Episode 00) - -**Context:** A short, informal teaser where the hosts test recording gear and articulate _why_ they want to start a public dialogue. - -## Underlying Values Highlighted - -1. **Embrace Imperfection** - • They openly admit technical hiccups and "take two," reinforcing the _build-in-public_ mindset. - • Rapid iteration > polished first try. - -2. **Conversation as Exploration** - • The goal is to _discover_ insights, not present finished answers. - • Recording conversations allows others to join the learning journey. - -3. **Walk-and-Talk Philosophy** - • Inspired by Sovereign Engineering cohorts where participants _walk, talk, and think out loud._ - • Physical movement helps surface deeper ideas and mitigates screen-induced tunnel vision. - -4. **Community & Continuity** - • Weekly meet-ups maintain connection among busy builders who rarely see each other despite proximity. - • Invitation to broaden the circle—"get other people involved." - -5. **Learning From Sovereign Engineering Cohorts** - • Past Sovereign Engineering cohorts revealed common stumbling blocks; the podcast aims to address them. - • Sharing mistakes accelerates collective progress. - -6. **Alignment With Nostr & Self-Sovereignty** - • Conversations center on Nostr development and sovereign tech. - • Reflects Sovereign Engineering's mission: empower builders through open protocols. - -## Essence - -A meta-conversation about _why_ to record future conversations: preserve the serendipity and insights that arise when sovereign engineers walk together, embrace imperfection, and share their ongoing exploration with a wider audience. - ---- - -Built in the spirit of Sovereign Engineering—iterate in public, learn together, and keep walking. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/00.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/00.srt deleted file mode 100644 index 1107e949..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/00.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,308 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000 -Alright, take two. - -2 -00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,000 -Alright. - -3 -00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,000 -I told you this was going to be very imperfect. - -4 -00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,000 -So we already fucked up the first time. - -5 -00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:11,000 -It was phenomenal. - -6 -00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:12,000 -Yeah. - -7 -00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,000 -The discussion? - -8 -00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,000 -Yeah. - -9 -00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:15,000 -The three minutes. - -10 -00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,000 -Absolutely amazing. - -11 -00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,000 -Sitting on via Jeff was excellent. - -12 -00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,000 -So we can always go longer. - -13 -00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:21,000 -Yeah. - -14 -00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,000 -A weird Brazilian guy is to blame for all of this. - -15 -00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,000 -So what is this going to be? - -16 -00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,000 -This is officially the second test recording slash teaser. - -17 -00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,000 -So tell me about it Pablo. - -18 -00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:33,000 -What is this going to be? - -19 -00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:43,000 -Well, it's a bit of an experiment where we're going to try to distill what we've learned, where we are. - -20 -00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:56,000 -And yeah, I think we, because mostly because of what we did with sovereign engineering so far, we now know a lot more than we did a year ago about where people get hung up. - -21 -00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:06,000 -And it's just the mistakes that keep coming up constantly or repeatedly. - -22 -00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:11,000 -So I think we're just going to walk and try to explore. - -23 -00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:16,000 -Yeah, it's a nice excuse to have a nice walk in the sun. - -24 -00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,000 -That's going to be my thing. - -25 -00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:26,000 -The reason why I'm doing this is I just want to have an excuse to see you once a week for an hour. - -26 -00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:31,000 -Because even though we are more or less at the same place, we basically never see each other. - -27 -00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:32,000 -So that's terrible. - -28 -00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,000 -And yeah, I just want to pick your brain. - -29 -00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,000 -I just want to see where things are at. - -30 -00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:41,000 -And I think you've been very close to Noster for a long time. - -31 -00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,000 -Probably closer than most. - -32 -00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,000 -And I just, yeah, probably too close. - -33 -00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,000 -Yeah, careful. - -34 -00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,000 -Don't fly too close to the sun. - -35 -00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:56,000 -No, but I, I, I, I mean, we talked about some of those things already. - -36 -00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:07,000 -And the last time we talked about it was like, we should actually record all this and just get other people involved and just see kind of how the conversation involves and open it up and so on. - -37 -00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:16,000 -And so we got because many in many of those conversations, we go in knowing less than we that we end up with. - -38 -00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:22,000 -We find out things while we are having a conversation as an exploration that we're having. - -39 -00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:29,000 -And I think we've arrived to many interesting thought provoking ideas, having those conversations. - -40 -00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,000 -Yeah. - -41 -00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,000 -And so we're going to continue and we're going to press record and we're going to just send it. - -42 -00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,000 -That's going to be the idea. - -43 -00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -44 -00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:39,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -45 -00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,000 -That's how that's how the internet evolves. - -46 -00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,000 -It used to be sent tweet, the secret to life and absolutely everything. - -47 -00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,000 -Now I guess it's like send note. - -48 -00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,000 -I still hate it. - -49 -00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,000 -I mean, I should, I think we should reclaim. - -50 -00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,000 -Yeah, fuck it. - -51 -00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,000 -But now it's going to be sent podcast. - -52 -00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,000 -Tolster. - -53 -00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -54 -00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,000 -And so that's what it's going to be. - -55 -00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:04,000 -And yeah, I'm a big believer in kind of, you know, that's why we, we also in the, in the cohorts, we force everyone to walk and talk and think out loud. - -56 -00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,000 -And so on. - -57 -00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:11,000 -And so that's, that's going to be an experiment in kind of, you know, I don't know. - -58 -00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,000 -Noster, development, dialogue, I think. - -59 -00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,000 -Something like that. - -60 -00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,000 -Yeah. - -61 -00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,000 -Well, let's see how it goes. - -62 -00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,000 -Let's see if that one worked. - -63 -00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,000 -Maybe we have to take a, do it take three. - -64 -00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,000 -We'll be loving something. - -65 -00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,000 -But yeah, no. - -66 -00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,000 -I hope, I hope we'll get something out of it. - -67 -00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,000 -I'm probably, we're probably going to do it mostly for ourselves. - -68 -00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,000 -I guess if someone listens via Jeff is going to listen. - -69 -00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,000 -Come on. - -70 -00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,000 -We're going to, we just have to do, like, hashtag starcraft or something. - -71 -00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,000 -It's going to be, it's going to be amazing. - -72 -00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,000 -It's going to be a Noster and Starcraft, but exactly. - -73 -00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,000 -There, we'll see, we'll see how it goes. - -74 -00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,000 -And yeah, we'll, we'll see where our feet and our conversations lead us. - -75 -00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,000 -So that's the plan. - -76 -00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:48,000 -That's the plan. - -77 -00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,000 -Awesome. - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/01 - Start Ugly - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/01 - Start Ugly - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index 4d124df7..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/01 - Start Ugly - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,45 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "Start Ugly" (Episode 01) - -**Context:** The hosts walk along a coastal path (complete with echo-filled tunnel!) discussing why shipping early, imperfect work is essential—both for individual builders and the broader Sovereign Engineering community. - -## Core Values & Themes - -1. **Start Ugly / Ship Imperfect** - • Shipping is an act of vulnerability but also the only path to learning. - • Quantity → quality: like the pottery-class experiment, frequent output breeds mastery. - • "Happiness is shipping." - -2. **Build-in-Public Culture** - • Releasing half-baked prototypes invites community bullying/feedback that accelerates improvement. - • Get the idea into other people's heads—let it evolve outside your laptop. - -3. **Habits & Identity** - • If you repeatedly delay launches, you _become_ someone who doesn't ship. - • Sovereign Engineering cohorts cultivate opposite habits via weekly demo pressure. - -4. **Self-Sovereignty & Responsibility** - • Parallels to Bitcoin's "Not your keys, not your coins." - • Freedom demands responsibility—developers must embrace trade-offs (e.g., custodial quick-fixes lead to Coinbase-like futures). - -5. **Nostr as the Dev Playground** - • Treat Nostr like a global testnet: push code, iterate live. - • Open protocols prevent rug-pulls—your app can't be shut down by API owners. - • Distribution is "free"—new apps instantly inherit a user/content graph. - -6. **Healthy Monetization Mindset** - • Avoid ad-driven capture; explore direct user payments/value-for-value. - • Fear of open-sourcing or charging too early both stem from scarcity thinking. - • "Lemonade stands in cyberspace": small, sustainable, user-centric ventures trump VC-fuelled land-grabs. - -7. **Walk-and-Talk Method** - • Mirroring Sovereign Engineering cohort rituals, walking removes screen distraction, forcing discussion of _why_ before _how_. - -## Takeaways for Sovereign Engineering Cohorts - -• Cohort participants are pushed to ship something—anything—each week, reinforcing the _Start Ugly_ ethos. -• Shared language/memes (e.g., "Nostr is testnet") help newcomers bypass repeat mistakes. -• Success is measured in exploration and learning, not perfection or early monetization. - ---- - -Start ugly, iterate publicly, and keep walking—this is Sovereign Engineering in motion. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/01 - Start Ugly.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/01 - Start Ugly.srt deleted file mode 100644 index b540329e..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/01 - Start Ugly.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,1812 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,880 -yeah let's just continue and let's do start ugly yeah so it's it was kind of leading into it yeah - -2 -00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:17,640 -good okay episode one is that's let me see let me see if everything still works - -3 -00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:24,300 -man that's good i'm having fun already so it's already working it's already working yeah yeah - -4 -00:00:24,300 --> 00:00:31,640 -we might even get an mp3 out of it okay yeah that's the goal so okay that's officially now episode one - -5 -00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:41,280 -okay that's correct fantastic good okay so yeah like like we said in the in the awesome teaser - -6 -00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:49,840 -which one the first one or the second one the second one the first official one um we we wanna - -7 -00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:58,480 -we landed on some themes basically and um one of them one of them was basically uh start ugly like - -8 -00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:04,900 -don't be afraid to ship whatever you have in some sense and uh why do you think that's important or - -9 -00:01:04,900 --> 00:01:10,100 -why do we or maybe maybe a follow-up question to that like why do you think are so many - -10 -00:01:10,100 --> 00:01:13,620 -so many deaths that we work with have hangups with that - -11 -00:01:13,620 --> 00:01:22,420 -i mean to me every time i ship something that i know it's incomplete uh alpha or whatever - -12 -00:01:22,420 --> 00:01:31,420 -it is a very vulnerable space um so a lot of it is just the the insecurity of i know i i could do - -13 -00:01:31,420 --> 00:01:37,980 -better but that's the thing that you can always do better right so given that that that um that way - -14 -00:01:37,980 --> 00:01:43,520 -of approaching the problem you will never ship um so you have to be there's no perfection right - -15 -00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,940 -yeah there is no perfection you have to you have to find the comfort in shipping something that you - -16 -00:01:47,940 --> 00:01:53,320 -know it's imperfect um there there is uh what's the ugliest thing you ever shipped - -17 -00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:58,060 -oh my lord uh that's a it's a tough question everything - -18 -00:01:58,060 --> 00:02:09,840 -um i oh yeah no i i know what it is i oh the tunnel with the echo is gonna be interesting - -19 -00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:16,400 -uh we're gonna make it they have to suffer so so so right now we're walking through a tunnel that is - -20 -00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:23,880 -dug into the uh into the shore of uh of the island uh so it's gonna be a bit echoey no it's gonna be - -21 -00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:32,800 -perfect we're gonna fix it in post uh you know so the the the ugliest thing i've shipped i was - -22 -00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:40,100 -accident i accidentally shipped the honeypot wallet uh because i was testing publishing stuff on on - -23 -00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:49,400 -substore so it was radically incomplete so there was complete stuff that was like for example if you - -24 -00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:57,260 -published an event with your so the honeypot wallet is um an ip60 a nutsack wallet uh and if you were - -25 -00:02:57,260 --> 00:03:01,720 -to publish a token and the publishing fail because you didn't have internet or whatever it didn't save - -26 -00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:09,160 -it locally or it didn't even retry to save the tokens so it was it's very much uh probably the - -27 -00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,660 -ugliest thing i've shipped but do you regret it or you still think it's the right approach - -28 -00:03:13,660 --> 00:03:21,240 -i mean get it out and deteriorate i i think it's always the right approach to ship something - -29 -00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:28,660 -especially if you if you say this is broken in these ways or you know in this super testing is - -30 -00:03:28,660 --> 00:03:38,420 -great at that yeah oh yeah super testing is the archetype um if you if you if you disclose that okay - -31 -00:03:38,420 --> 00:03:44,580 -this doesn't work or like this other part is broken or like the onboarding process of of the honeypot - -32 -00:03:44,580 --> 00:03:53,200 -wallet says you will probably lose all your money uh that you put here uh but uh but the the cool thing - -33 -00:03:53,200 --> 00:04:01,340 -is that if you ship something that is broken um it's much more likely that you will get bullied into - -34 -00:04:01,340 --> 00:04:09,200 -fixing it rather than if you just keep it local and say oh once i fix this bad i will aim for - -35 -00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:14,780 -perfection yeah and you'll get to the point where you will always find something that can be more - -36 -00:04:14,780 --> 00:04:21,080 -optimized you will always find something that could be nicer that could be yeah more closer to what you - -37 -00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:29,000 -think it should be um so you can always find an excuse to not ship um so i think not shipping is never - -38 -00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,540 -the approach yeah yeah no i agree i mean uh who was it i think it was david heidenmeyer hansen of all - -39 -00:04:35,540 --> 00:04:40,340 -people the guy who hated bitcoin starting in 2010 he changed his mind by the way he changed his mind i - -40 -00:04:40,340 --> 00:04:48,180 -like him a lot but i think it comes from him right happiness is shipping and so yes try to try to bring - -41 -00:04:48,180 --> 00:04:53,340 -it into a state where it's just like you can ship it as fast as possible like just basically it's the - -42 -00:04:53,340 --> 00:04:59,320 -super ugliest pre-alpha mvp and just ship it and i think i think to be fair a lot of people in our - -43 -00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,120 -space in the nostril space did that right like i remember the first version of nostril boat which was - -44 -00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:08,420 -like ugly as fuck and i was like oh my lord what is this but it worked and and they iterated and - -45 -00:05:08,420 --> 00:05:14,100 -iterated and now it's a you know like uh stuff works and it's everything is way better and all those - -46 -00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:22,240 -kind of things and um yeah i i was just surprised like we i think also the theme of course starting - -47 -00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:29,340 -ugly is very meta for this thing you know like it's gonna be uh we're trying to practice what we preach - -48 -00:05:29,340 --> 00:05:34,900 -but i think it's very important to make it real like it doesn't matter if it's beautiful it doesn't - -49 -00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:39,060 -matter if it's perfect once it's real that's what it's basically what you said as well it's like you're - -50 -00:05:39,060 --> 00:05:43,340 -gonna get you're gonna get feedback you're gonna be you know like bullied into fixing things and all - -51 -00:05:43,340 --> 00:05:49,220 -those kind of things and once you once you push anything out it doesn't matter what it is it - -52 -00:05:49,220 --> 00:05:53,880 -doesn't matter if it's software or a piece of artwork or a piece of writing or even an idea or - -53 -00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,760 -what have you then it's real then it's in other people's heads then other people know that this - -54 -00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:03,700 -exists and then it kind of takes a life uh it takes on a life of its own and and i think that's - -55 -00:06:03,700 --> 00:06:08,720 -that's why it's so important to just ship it out don't try don't try to you know like make it - -56 -00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:14,000 -perfect and don't it's it kind of it's not about you it's about the idea and it's about the thing - -57 -00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:20,120 -it's not about you and and the thing is that once the idea or the software whatever it is it's out - -58 -00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,460 -there it can evolve whereas if it's contained just within your computer just within your mind - -59 -00:06:25,460 --> 00:06:32,020 -the the uh the environment is not as aggressive it cannot evolve as fast yeah it doesn't have as - -60 -00:06:32,020 --> 00:06:36,900 -many inputs um and i i also think there's something to be said about the fact that - -61 -00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:44,580 -we are kind of we are our habits and if you get in the habit of not shipping oh absolutely then you - -62 -00:06:44,580 --> 00:06:48,900 -become a person that doesn't ship it's also you know about the the i don't know if it was a study - -63 -00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:54,700 -or whatever or i i have no idea but basically they they ran they had two groups of students and i think - -64 -00:06:54,700 --> 00:07:00,780 -it was like a pottery class or something like that and uh one group of students um got the - -65 -00:07:00,780 --> 00:07:06,760 -task of you will be graded by your masterpiece and you have like six months to make your masterpiece - -66 -00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,820 -and you can do whatever but at the end one masterpiece has to come out and the other group of students - -67 -00:07:11,820 --> 00:07:19,120 -was told it doesn't matter what you do you will be graded by the amount of pottery things that you - -68 -00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:26,660 -produce by the amount of whatever vases you you you push out and the group that did basically shipped - -69 -00:07:26,660 --> 00:07:33,140 -constantly they actually produced the masterpieces they actually like the the things were so much - -70 -00:07:33,140 --> 00:07:38,280 -better because it's just about you have to get into the habit of getting stuff out and and just - -71 -00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:43,740 -doing the next thing and getting that out and so on and so forth so yeah no surprise i i actually - -72 -00:07:43,740 --> 00:07:51,440 -experienced that very uh very much personally uh in the past few months or in the past year i mean - -73 -00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:56,220 -you started and abandoned i don't know so many more projects than everyone else combined i think - -74 -00:07:56,220 --> 00:08:02,180 -no but that's that's a what what so for example what happened with highlighter i think highlighter is - -75 -00:08:02,180 --> 00:08:10,200 -such a good example of what not to do because with highlighter i started with one idea which was your idea - -76 -00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:18,620 -uh the uh the um purple text orange highlights uh so i started with that idea and then it morphed - -77 -00:08:18,620 --> 00:08:23,320 -into this other thing and then it morphed into this other thing and it went through like like six - -78 -00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:30,640 -different different um uh products so different different value props um and it got to the point - -79 -00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:38,940 -where i rewrote the code so many times without actually shipping it because it was kind of in prototype - -80 -00:08:38,940 --> 00:08:46,940 -stage constantly it got to the point where i was i mean everybody that interface with highlighter is - -81 -00:08:46,940 --> 00:08:53,000 -confused on what the fuck is highlighter um and and even i was completely confused on what is highlighter - -82 -00:08:53,000 --> 00:09:01,020 -and and it's got to the point where i haven't shipped the the the code of highlighter in like - -83 -00:09:01,020 --> 00:09:06,460 -three different revisions so like the product that is live now the one that i that i have locally - -84 -00:09:06,460 --> 00:09:13,160 -completely different thing completely different thing but every time i think oh i need to publish this - -85 -00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,640 -why are you so afraid pablo i well - -86 -00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:23,140 -it's because it has an awesome domain that's why that's that's the thing right the stakes are very high - -87 -00:09:23,140 --> 00:09:31,840 -um no but but every time i think about shipping i think i haven't shipped for so long these codeways - -88 -00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:40,580 -that once i ship it must be a masterpiece it must be fucking perfect yeah and that prevents me from - -89 -00:09:40,580 --> 00:09:45,280 -shipping it prevents it says me ah you know let's just go and work on you from happiness because - -90 -00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:53,380 -happiness is shipping happiness is shipping 100 so we are also not perfect yeah no but i i find it - -91 -00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:59,780 -fascinating that i am the same person when i'm writing code on highlighter and i am the same person - -92 -00:09:59,780 --> 00:10:04,840 -when i'm writing code on on whatever it might be on on olas on ndk on on whatever it is yeah - -93 -00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:10,660 -but in in ndk i can cut a release just like that on olas i can ship just like that in highlighter - -94 -00:10:10,660 --> 00:10:16,720 -i i get like stage fright okay it's a big thing okay i see yeah yeah but but i think that's why - -95 -00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,560 -it's important that we kind of talk about all those things because we when - -96 -00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:28,960 -a lot of the things that are the right thing to do are actually also hard and i think we know this - -97 -00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,820 -from from the bitcoin world where uh you know like being self-sovereign for example it's actually - -98 -00:10:33,820 --> 00:10:39,420 -hard but you just you have to kind of it's like getting up in the morning and going for a run - -99 -00:10:39,420 --> 00:10:42,780 -or getting up in the morning and jumping into a fucking cold plunge or whatever it's like it's - -100 -00:10:42,780 --> 00:10:48,320 -hard every time you have to find ways to force yourself every time in some sense you know and - -101 -00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:54,160 -and i mean on the bitcoin side and that's also that's it's part of this experiment right now which - -102 -00:10:54,160 --> 00:11:01,560 -i hope we will land on some things on an ostracite that are condensed almost like memes like we have - -103 -00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:06,660 -in the bitcoin space right where it's like everyone kind of knows that shit is hard and it takes a lot - -104 -00:11:06,660 --> 00:11:10,320 -of responsibility but we landed on you know not your keys not your coins for example and all those - -105 -00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:16,140 -kind of things and everyone kind of there is a mutual shared understanding of how things work how - -106 -00:11:16,140 --> 00:11:24,140 -things should work and uh what is the implication of of this what is the implication of not your keys - -107 -00:11:24,140 --> 00:11:28,640 -not your coins it's the implication is actually you have to sit down and do the things and take the - -108 -00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,780 -responsibility of actually you know taking care of your stuff and all those kind of things and i think - -109 -00:11:33,780 --> 00:11:43,360 -on on on the nostril side my hope is that we land on a on similar things i care mostly about the - -110 -00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:49,180 -developer perspective like mostly about what does it mean to build in the nostril ecosystem it means - -111 -00:11:49,180 --> 00:11:55,540 -shipping something that's super ugly and super imperfect and very weird and very confusing and - -112 -00:11:55,540 --> 00:12:00,340 -just pushing it out the door and see seeing what happens it's like nostril is the testnet - -113 -00:12:00,340 --> 00:12:06,640 -i mean everything that happened so far shows this very clearly you know it's like there is no testnet - -114 -00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,640 -there's like nostril is the testnet just push it out and treat it as such - -115 -00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:22,920 -yeah very much so and i definitely agree i definitely agree that um landing on the on the memes uh on on this - -116 -00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:29,760 -knowledge um it's super important because it's it's hard and we've seen it even within cyber engineering - -117 -00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:39,680 -where we see the same people making the same category of mistake um and they don't have the words - -118 -00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:44,040 -like that's something that that i keep coming back to they don't have the words to explain - -119 -00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:50,180 -why that approach is wrong they just work on one approach they found find the limitations - -120 -00:12:50,180 --> 00:12:55,660 -the drawbacks of that approach and then they change to an approach that is different but it's - -121 -00:12:55,660 --> 00:13:00,680 -within the same category of mistakes and then they have to work for a few more months to reach the - -122 -00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:05,780 -same conclusion and it's just because they don't have the category of what is the mistake yeah yeah - -123 -00:13:05,780 --> 00:13:12,580 -yeah i i i but i i mean to be fair it's also i think hard and confusing if you come from a regular - -124 -00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:18,060 -you know client server architecture kind of everything is a rest api style of development - -125 -00:13:18,060 --> 00:13:24,520 -and and and kind of find your footing in the nostra way of doing things and there absolutely is a - -126 -00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:29,100 -way of doing things just like there is a bitcoin way of doing things and i i mean one of the - -127 -00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:33,840 -comparisons that we often um that we have been drawing over the last couple months is like - -128 -00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:40,700 -especially for example if you build a bitcoin product once you go down the path of uh of being - -129 -00:13:40,700 --> 00:13:45,800 -a custodian for someone else's money you're already you know like you're not only with like one foot in - -130 -00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:51,700 -hell you're already in hell 100 because you're gonna you know like everything that that that it - -131 -00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:55,880 -will bite you in the it's such a small decision basically in some sense you know like technically - -132 -00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:02,000 -speaking maybe or or or or it doesn't feel like such a big thing but it's like a make or break - -133 -00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:07,840 -decision it's it's it's if you if you want to actually don't turn yourself into coinbase like - -134 -00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:13,700 -if you hold if you hold money for someone else you're gonna be as shitty as coinbase down the line - -135 -00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:19,220 -there's no escape from that yeah the the success case of when you make that one bad decision - -136 -00:14:19,220 --> 00:14:27,960 -that one fork in the road the success stage is living a life that you were trying to live the - -137 -00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:33,880 -opposite of that life right like like i don't think brian armstrong wanted to run a compliance - -138 -00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:42,360 -department and uh uh a spying uh agency with chain analysis and all these things um yeah you have to - -139 -00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:47,040 -someone with a very large stick is at your door at all times you have to and it's it's super - -140 -00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:55,500 -interesting you you used to say a lot and this is a no solutions uh exclusive oh there's gonna because - -141 -00:14:55,500 --> 00:15:04,860 -you i i never told you this um but um you used to say a lot um that lean alden say i said at some - -142 -00:15:04,860 --> 00:15:09,700 -stage uh i think it was in oslo or something uh if you're a bitcoin company you don't you don't want - -143 -00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:14,780 -to hold your customer's case you don't uh you don't want to hold your yeah i love the code yeah - -144 -00:15:14,780 --> 00:15:20,420 -and i i remember at the time i was working on insect bunker yeah i told you it was a shit idea - -145 -00:15:20,420 --> 00:15:31,300 -yeah well but i mean yes yes so i had to go through like the whole process of saying oh fuck this is so - -146 -00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:38,600 -bad yeah this this could get ugly so fast yeah um and then finding the ways of shutting it down - -147 -00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,680 -in a in in the right way of shutting it down which yeah from my perspective shutting it down - -148 -00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:50,600 -meant yeah breaking it uh not saying that i was not going to work on that because i didn't want - -149 -00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,880 -other people to work on that because i i think it's just it's not a bad idea for me it's just a bad - -150 -00:15:54,880 --> 00:16:01,280 -idea yeah i agree um but it's a it's a very compelling idea oh you make it so easy for - -151 -00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,980 -everyone oh the onboarding is solved but that's the thing and i think we don't have we don't have good - -152 -00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:10,320 -um i mean not your keys not your coins is the closest we have but it's like the the you cannot - -153 -00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,660 -abstract this away meaningfully basically it's like if you freedom implies responsibility and you - -154 -00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:20,880 -you will need to be responsible uh on the bitcoin sign for your keys for example you know like you - -155 -00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,400 -need to be there's other things like there's there's similar examples where they're just again - -156 -00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:30,880 -like there is no solution like suko's triangle is a good one it's like naming there is no you can't - -157 -00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:35,660 -have handles in nostril without the trusted third party you can't have like at you know their gg - -158 -00:16:35,660 --> 00:16:41,100 -whatever it is and it it's it's impossible it's an impossible problem so there literally - -159 -00:16:41,100 --> 00:16:47,860 -it's a provable unsolvable problem so so there literally are no solutions and the the trade-off we - -160 -00:16:47,860 --> 00:16:53,400 -landed on with you know like nipple 5 and those kind of things it's like okay we rely on dns as - -161 -00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:58,120 -the trusted third party basically and again i think that all the verified services i also think - -162 -00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,520 -it's actually a bad idea because it's like it should be your own domain like that that would be the idea - -163 -00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:08,960 -but but anyway i think and also understanding it as a as a discoverability of how do you get to the - -164 -00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,620 -pubkey in the same way that dns is how do you get to the ip address exactly is it's not that is your - -165 -00:17:13,620 --> 00:17:18,520 -identity yes is your pubkey is your identity and you arrive to the to the pubkey via the nipple - -166 -00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:25,020 -file yeah and but i want to come back to the the quote of of linalden uh a bitcoin company doesn't - -167 -00:17:25,020 --> 00:17:29,440 -want to hold your bitcoin and i think it's it hits the nail on the head and i think that's what makes - -168 -00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,520 -it so different but it doesn't mean that bitcoin companies can't exist and it doesn't mean that - -169 -00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:38,020 -bitcoin companies can't make money you just have to think about things differently and i mean of course - -170 -00:17:38,020 --> 00:17:42,420 -you know there's like collaborative custody solutions and there's a ton of financial services that - -171 -00:17:42,420 --> 00:17:48,640 -actually do not need to hold your money for you there's still lots of things that you can do and - -172 -00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:53,380 -make money on and i think the reason why i go into detail with all of this on the bitcoin side because - -173 -00:17:53,380 --> 00:17:58,400 -i think that absolutely the same thing applies to the nostril side absolutely the same thing - -174 -00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:04,820 -it's it's not necessarily about money but it's like you can you can provide useful services - -175 -00:18:04,820 --> 00:18:10,040 -without holding your customers hostage yeah and i think that's what we - -176 -00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:15,940 -have to kind of really nail and and i think that's the the vision and the story we really - -177 -00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:21,600 -have to nail because it's actually possible and it's not like a pipe dream or whatever it's like - -178 -00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:28,360 -it's it's you can create something and build something that's super valuable that's super useful - -179 -00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:33,540 -and you can make money and you can do it without requiring anyone's permission and that's kind of the - -180 -00:18:33,540 --> 00:18:38,540 -story i want to tell and that's that's and and and i was surprised that a lot of developers - -181 -00:18:38,540 --> 00:18:45,060 -have a hard time seeing that and also have a hard time believing that and - -182 -00:18:45,060 --> 00:18:51,860 -to to stick with the theme of you know like starting ugly i think you have to take this leap - -183 -00:18:51,860 --> 00:18:57,720 -of faith and just go for it and try it out and iterate along the way because i can't tell you yet - -184 -00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,140 -like what is the cookie cutter recipe which we have for web 2.0 for example where it's like you - -185 -00:19:03,140 --> 00:19:08,460 -raise a bunch of pc money and so on and you do all that yeah exactly and you squeeze them and - -186 -00:19:08,460 --> 00:19:12,860 -like then everything goes to shit and that's kind of the cycle the web has been in so far - -187 -00:19:12,860 --> 00:19:18,860 -and i really think we can break the cycle i really think we can break the cycle all the platforms so - -188 -00:19:18,860 --> 00:19:23,900 -far everything that was great it all went to shit it all and i think it's it is because of the - -189 -00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:30,120 -monetization thing you know it is because you have to actually capture everyone and squeeze everyone - -190 -00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:34,260 -it's unavoidable it's unavoidable you just can't escape those incentives but but but but it's not - -191 -00:19:34,260 --> 00:19:39,300 -unavoidable unavoidable from a business perspective there is great multi-generational businesses there's - -192 -00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:44,060 -great multi-generational fucking restaurants you know where it's like this restaurant existed for - -193 -00:19:44,060 --> 00:19:49,840 -like 300 years and it's still like you know the whatever in in like some valley and they still make - -194 -00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,940 -great food and they still make a profit and i think we can do that in cyberspace i really think - -195 -00:19:54,940 --> 00:20:00,980 -we can do that and that's kind of what i want to you know like hopefully figure out along the way how - -196 -00:20:00,980 --> 00:20:06,940 -what is the recipe to actually do that and how can you do it without falling into all the dark patterns - -197 -00:20:06,940 --> 00:20:12,840 -that you know the current iteration of the web brought us yeah to me it's interesting because you can - -198 -00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:21,600 -you can build everything surrounding a noster but then if you try to to monetize in the in the old - -199 -00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:28,740 -ways you're actually just building uh a company in the in the legacy system it's just kind of maybe - -200 -00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:34,800 -like mines.com i think is kind of a if a it's a good example where it was kind of noster for a while but but - -201 -00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:42,960 -not really um we sadly we have many of those of those examples right now um of companies that are - -202 -00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:49,200 -kind of noster but in reality is a little bit adjacent kind of or turn like start out well and - -203 -00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:55,440 -then turn themselves more and more into noster in name only yeah exactly and and i think that comes - -204 -00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:02,880 -from from fear like if you think that your users are only going to choose you because they don't have a - -205 -00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,840 -fucking choice yeah that like what does that say about you coming back to the restaurant analogy - -206 -00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:13,440 -it's like you know all the users like all the all all the patrons come in and you just lock the door - -207 -00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,400 -and it's like you have to eat you know i'm only going to let you out if you if your bill is a hundred - -208 -00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,840 -bucks or higher you know like that's the that's kind of that's how the web currently operates it's - -209 -00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:31,920 -very weird but but i think and and that's the thing i i think we don't yet because noster is so so - -210 -00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:39,200 -nascent and even bitcoin um it's so it's so young that we don't have good examples because when i - -211 -00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:44,800 -when i've talked about monetization and noster a few times i get the question of can you point to - -212 -00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,960 -an example of a profitable company that is doing seven eight whatever number of figures it's like - -213 -00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:57,360 -no bro like we have like 10 users what are you talking about uh hey hey we have a strong circular - -214 -00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:02,640 -economy of like the same the same 20 people stepping around over and over again what do you - -215 -00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:10,560 -mean it's like flourishing um but but at the same time bitcoiners you know what you can point to you - -216 -00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:17,680 -can point to things actually making money and you can point to that in most other areas um like i i - -217 -00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,080 -always i i go to the value for value side and the artist and so on like no one on spotify makes any - -218 -00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:27,120 -money no artist yeah but if you switch to noster and you put your music in noster you will make - -219 -00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:33,840 -like 20 bucks a week or something in saps and shit and and it feels like nothing but it's like - -220 -00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:39,360 -10 000x when you get on spotify literally it's literally like for the smaller artist it's literally - -221 -00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:44,880 -like 10 000x it's like because they get absolutely nothing and i think on the on the business and kind - -222 -00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:50,400 -of monetization side i still think it's i kind of agree with you there's way too early to go too deep into - -223 -00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,680 -this um like how could we monetize and so on but the fact of the matter is that we have a lot of paid - -224 -00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:01,280 -services that actually do make money i'm not saying they're profitable but we have paid relays we have - -225 -00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,640 -you know like the paid media upload thingies and all those kind of things paid verification stuff and - -226 -00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:13,760 -so on subvertise me the plus of servers yeah yeah yeah i was surprised to get that and and so so money - -227 -00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,440 -is flowing through the system and it's not much yet but you don't i don't think you need a lot of - -228 -00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:24,320 -um kind of imagination to see where this could go with you know the user base a hundred access a - -229 -00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,920 -thousand access and so on and i mean we have all the room for growth in the world because like going - -230 -00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:35,840 -from 20 users to like eight billion that's a lot of percentage points you know yeah that's what that - -231 -00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:41,440 -was kind of where i was going that that bitcoiners into uh leaning to austrian economics and praxeology and first - -232 -00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:46,640 -principles thinking and all these things and then they tell you oh no you have to show me the point - -233 -00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,280 -to the to the example that works right now no you have to to extrapolate and you have to to imagine - -234 -00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:58,160 -um and you you have to to me it's all about like self-confidence you have to have the confidence that - -235 -00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:05,200 -you can create something so valuable that someone will be willing to pay without being forced to pay - -236 -00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,320 -yeah yeah uh and what do you what you say about the the artist and the value for value i i think - -237 -00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:18,560 -that is such a perfect example of um because the way i see it is we have all this busy money we have - -238 -00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:25,200 -all these uh just in in the legacy world um of companies that they don't really need to make a profit - -239 -00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:32,400 -uh you know is the cheap money keeps them alive and and the game they're playing is it's just it's just - -240 -00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,880 -it's just a different game they're not really trying to create utility they're just trying to - -241 -00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:46,720 -bump numbers right to just yeah just go get the um get to the next round um and the whole point - -242 -00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,240 -is to create a unicorn right yeah the whole point is to go well yeah now a unicorn is nothing like - -243 -00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:57,760 -unicorn is one bill yeah yeah you you you you want to sell out kind of the whole point is to sell out - -244 -00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,080 -exactly and i think that model just doesn't work anymore it's just that model will - -245 -00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:08,640 -die both in the legacy and in nothing will never happen um and i think the the the model that i mean - -246 -00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,880 -in some sense it's also very much found to easy money right in some hundred percent yeah yeah exactly - -247 -00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:20,560 -a lot of it exactly um it it it is only possible because of the of the cheap money yeah um and i just - -248 -00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:27,200 -don't see but i i see companies trying to create that same model to replicate that same model within - -249 -00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:34,080 -nostril and i just think that that will never exist i think it will be corners corners yeah i hope so i - -250 -00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:40,320 -hope so the the the picture i have in my mind i mean the the the kind of the slogan i i i try to - -251 -00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:47,280 -run with uh but i already got some bush pushback because it's it's like too too childish but it's like - -252 -00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:52,240 -you can create a lemonade stand in cyberspace and and and the reason why i like it is because you don't - -253 -00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:58,160 -need unless you live in canada or whatever kind of you know communist state you don't need a license - -254 -00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,640 -and you don't need a permission slip to open up a lemonade stand you could even be like you know - -255 -00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,320 -eight years old and you just get the lemonade stand going and you and and and it's also i think it's a - -256 -00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:13,520 -it's a nice metaphor because you don't know what this could turn into like if you're really into it - -257 -00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,960 -this could turn into a profitable business and kind of that's that's that's what i want to get out - -258 -00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:27,040 -there that like there is like probably half a million javascript devs right now that could start - -259 -00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:34,400 -something that produces a set flow and they don't know about it so i i just want them to know because - -260 -00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,120 -making money is awesome you know like capitalism is awesome and and and we have all the right tools - -261 -00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:45,760 -now i think to to actually do that and pursue that and i think uh coming back to the restaurant analogy - -262 -00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,760 -like a busy street with a an awesome restaurant on it is beneficial to absolutely everyone it's - -263 -00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,960 -beneficial to the street it's beneficial to the restaurant owner and it's beneficial to the - -264 -00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,880 -competition as well and and i think that's what we have in nostril that's why i like the the busy - -265 -00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:06,400 -street with lots of restaurants so much because it's like if you don't like it you can get up and - -266 -00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,280 -and leave and go somewhere else and i think that should be true across the whole nostril ecosystem if - -267 -00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,280 -you don't like your wallet use another wallet if you don't like your client use another client if you don't - -268 -00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,760 -like your relay use another relay yeah and so on and so forth and i think that's the right way to - -269 -00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,240 -think about it it's it's it's it's a win-win-win situation yeah absolutely and and the other the - -270 -00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:31,040 -other part of the coin i mean we are of age enough to remember when the internet didn't used to - -271 -00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:38,240 -everything look exactly the same yeah and when you are designing a product that needs to work for - -272 -00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:43,440 -pretty much any single person in the world regardless of their lowest common denominator - -273 -00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:49,440 -you must create by definition a mediocre product yeah you can't say i'm going to create this one - -274 -00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:55,920 -client that has that is very weird but these thousand or ten thousand or one million people - -275 -00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:01,840 -absolutely love it everybody else hates it and thinks it's um no you have to you have to create the - -276 -00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:09,040 -the same thing for every single person and it's it's so uncreative it's so boring it like the street - -277 -00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:14,320 -looks yeah it's boring by default by kind of by definition by definition yeah it's it's the difference - -278 -00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,880 -between a shopping mall yeah yeah yeah and it's just the the street yeah that's a good point as well - -279 -00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:24,000 -that's a good point as well and i i i mean we we spoke about these kind of topics a couple of of times - -280 -00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:30,000 -already so for me the same examples i used in the past come to mind but it's like you might be - -281 -00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:37,040 -the best person in the whole fucking town or whatever to create like an awesome chef's knife - -282 -00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,640 -and you might not have like the goal is not to compete with the whole world and take over like - -283 -00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:50,480 -the the whole kind of knife market of the world you produce the best chef knife in the area and you have - -284 -00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,520 -a lot of customers that really like you and cherish you and you make a profit and that's it and i think - -285 -00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:03,040 -i think we we kind of already have the same um for for for various things online basically it's like - -286 -00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:08,960 -you know like this the one little tool that one guy built a long while ago and your whole - -287 -00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:14,880 -workflow relies on it and you're one of the like i don't know 150 users that the thing has you would pay - -288 -00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:23,440 -a lot of money for this thing to exist in perpetuity and i feel like lots of deaths are they really suck - -289 -00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:29,680 -at monetizing that kind of and they suck at asking for money as well and they suck at i mean most value - -290 -00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:36,160 -for value people suck at at the ask part of it but it's that's why i i try to bully absolutely everyone - -291 -00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:42,880 -into um uh doing something as a lot of the free-to-play games did where it's like if you want - -292 -00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,000 -to buy the skin for like ten thousand dollars let them buy the skin for ten thousand dollars if you - -293 -00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:53,680 -love the game you're gonna do it there's lots of people that it doesn't have to make sense for you - -294 -00:29:53,680 --> 00:30:00,000 -it doesn't have to make sense at all but let the people support you in whatever way they they see fit - -295 -00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,040 -and also make it appealing and make it easy and so on and so the only person that listened to me so far - -296 -00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,480 -it was actually million from primal yeah and that's where the the whole legend and thing came from and - -297 -00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:16,160 -so on and it actually works so so he was very against the idea he was very against it very reluctant - -298 -00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:22,240 -but you know like it's i told him just ship it like what's the worst that can happen you know it's like - -299 -00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:30,960 -start ugly start small and just ship it push it out if if if it if it sucks and if you get blowback and - -300 -00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:37,360 -if it's like no one does it or whatever then just revert it and that's it and i think i think it - -301 -00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,880 -also it comes from a point of fear like you said before like a very similar fear of like why do people - -302 -00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,760 -not ship the things that they actually built yeah it's just just try it out and do those kind of - -303 -00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:54,080 -things and i think you know like if you've been embedded in in the wider gaming ecosystem like this stuff - -304 -00:30:54,080 --> 00:31:00,160 -works and i'm you know i'm not talking about the darker sides of gamifying everything and putting - -305 -00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:05,840 -gambling into things and so on because that's where it's you know can also go but i think that's - -306 -00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:11,440 -what patreon really showed and also substack really showed because the reason why substack worked is - -307 -00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:16,400 -not because they added paywalls which they did like years later the reason why substack worked is - -308 -00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:22,400 -because you want to support this journalist or whatever and they made it really easy to do that - -309 -00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,280 -and also they used the protocol as the delivery mechanism they used email as their as their - -310 -00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:33,360 -delivery and that's i think that's the recipe and most people still kind of don't believe in it - -311 -00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:41,600 -so i'm i'm frustrated about that but but we'll see i remember when a bit of a bit of a story but when i - -312 -00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:49,360 -started climbing um i i was climbing with who's now my wife and she could climb stuff that i couldn't - -313 -00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:55,760 -and she she would tell me dude your shoes are too big like you can't climb with those shoes i was - -314 -00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:04,320 -like no i just suck there's no way and she's like dude let's just go to like the store and and buy new - -315 -00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:13,440 -shoes and and the next day we just went and got new shoes and it was it was actually that simple - -316 -00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:22,640 -it was actually a retarded way and and that's it like but it's so easy to get caught up in your mind - -317 -00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:28,160 -and think you know it's got to be like all this complexity and all this finance financial engineering - -318 -00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:35,200 -and oh i will move this money here and i will like and sometimes it could be just the left side of the - -319 -00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,640 -curve approach is the right approach i mean ask people and kind of explain i think proton mail for - -320 -00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:48,080 -example did this well it's like uh which which i like as an example because it's also like the um - -321 -00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,280 -email was basically fully captured but we kind of turned the curve i feel like you know and there - -322 -00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,920 -was a need in the market and and and some people came and again like proton i think is the group is - -323 -00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:03,600 -a great example there's many others but it's like okay like it's not going to be free period it's - -324 -00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,440 -going to be we're going to focus on encryption we're going to focus on privacy but for this to work - -325 -00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,080 -like you're going to have to pay it's going to be that there is no other way like either you are the - -326 -00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,720 -product and we spy on all your emails and we you know ram advertising down your throat and so on - -327 -00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,120 -if you don't want that you're going to have to pay for it and it's the same for you know on the - -328 -00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,040 -nostril side for example it's going to be the same for media hosting and so on if you want to do a - -329 -00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:30,400 -youtube on nostril if you're and if you're a creator and your livelihood depends on that and so on - -330 -00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:36,640 -free hosting is kind of out of the question you have to figure out how to yeah because otherwise - -331 -00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:45,040 -otherwise like you know otherwise you are back to selling user data or going down the advertisement - -332 -00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:51,120 -route and all those kind of things and so i i'm going back to dhh i really like the the approach of - -333 -00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,680 -base camp and the stuff that they work on with yeah with hey.com they did kind of the same yeah - -334 -00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,880 -people were kept on asking oh yeah but how are you going to make money we are going to charge users - -335 -00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:08,160 -users for money and then we'll have money like what do you mean yeah what kind of question is that - -336 -00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:14,960 -but so many people would get hung up on yeah but how are you going to make money yeah well like dude - -337 -00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:21,440 -yeah yeah no absolutely but if you think about it the other way is the weird way it's just been - -338 -00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:26,560 -normalized by advertisement and by google yeah but the way of oh no no it's everything is free we're just - -339 -00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:32,080 -going to mine your data and that that is very complex that is very fucking weird yeah i mean - -340 -00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:37,440 -people we we kind of we kind of know all that but we it feels like we forgot and we have all these - -341 -00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,600 -sayings for a reason right like there is no free lunch there literally isn't like if you think there - -342 -00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,080 -is then you're being fooled and you're fooling yourself and you don't see the hidden cost and it's - -343 -00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:51,840 -the same it's the same same thing here and so i hope that yeah i i agree i think base camp got a lot of - -344 -00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:57,520 -things right and i think the next hang up is about open source how could i how could i make any money - -345 -00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:03,920 -if i open source the thing and like someone else could steal it from me and uh you know and then - -346 -00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:11,760 -everything is terrible what would be your answer to that i have my own answers uh to to me it's just - -347 -00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:19,760 -the the the a brand uh brings a lot of moat uh like i i see a lot of discussion around the the what - -348 -00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,920 -is your motive but the source code is and especially now with like ai and now everybody's - -349 -00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:31,040 -writing code with ai uh the source code itself i don't think is is what's protecting your the company - -350 -00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:40,400 -and the revenue the like i want to buy the stuff that i use from the people that that make it yeah - -351 -00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,800 -not from the people that don't really understand it that's from the people that copy it yeah okay - -352 -00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:51,760 -yeah yeah what is your answer yeah i i think i have multiple answers to that particular question - -353 -00:35:51,760 --> 00:36:00,880 -i think what so again i think first of all it's the same issue that it's a position of fear - -354 -00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:10,000 -and i think if someone copies you they only copy the state they copy a snapshot of what is a process - -355 -00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,960 -and they cannot copy the process of developing the thing and maintaining the thing and running the - -356 -00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:22,160 -thing and so on and uh so why why is there only like you know we see it in all successful open - -357 -00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:27,920 -source software it's the same pattern the team that is actually building the thing has like the 99 of the - -358 -00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,800 -share of the forks in terms of what are the users actually running we see for firefox we see - -359 -00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,120 -see for thunderbird we see for wordpress all those kind of things and wordpress is actually a great - -360 -00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:42,880 -example of how you can think about building a business around open source software while the - -361 -00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,280 -full thing remaining open source at all times because running a wordpress instance is actually - -362 -00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:54,640 -work and so the service you can provide is um making it easy for paying users to run a wordpress - -363 -00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,760 -instance and you develop the software and so it all kind of goes together like this and so on - -364 -00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:06,640 -so i think there's i think i think it's a similar hang-up that the nft people have you're actually - -365 -00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:13,520 -not selling the jpeg you know you can't sell the jpeg it's like the jpeg is worthless it's like you can - -366 -00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,400 -you can copy it's not where the value comes from you can you can copy the jpeg at zero marginal cost - -367 -00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:24,720 -and it's true for literally every time it's rendered it has been copied exactly and and so the value - -368 -00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:32,480 -you and i think and that's why why i wanted to you know like continue these conversations and - -369 -00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:41,360 -explore this together because i think we as a society basically um are very confused about - -370 -00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:46,720 -what can you actually sell online and what can't you sell online because people are actually trying - -371 -00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:51,840 -to sell jpegs you know and they're like that's so fucking retarded it's beyond belief and so so - -372 -00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:58,720 -we have to figure out what is actually the thing that can't be copied what is the service that you - -373 -00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:05,600 -can provide and that's the thing you charge money on and so uh i mean we we we discussed this many - -374 -00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:14,160 -times in the past but for example if if if the thing you're you if this thing you're selling in - -375 -00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,280 -evolves compute you can sell that in a straightforward manner and the same goes for storage space which - -376 -00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:24,160 -is you know very similar to compute it's actually what are the actually scarce resources and most of - -377 -00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:31,680 -the things that are useful they involve something along those lines of a scarce resource and you can - -378 -00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:37,040 -monetize that the code is like it's that's not where the value is that's not that's not where you're - -379 -00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:44,000 -actually not selling the code like we you did i don't know like in 1996 with winrar or whatever - -380 -00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:52,320 -i feel like we learned all that but yeah i don't know i i again i think it comes from a - -381 -00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:58,240 -position of of being afraid and the position of worry and so on and i think that's not a good position - -382 -00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:05,600 -to be in i think you will if you actually build something of value and you actually have active users - -383 -00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:12,160 -and you have actually people that cherish your product you will be able to get monetary support - -384 -00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:20,400 -for that just because basically in some sense yeah i i i think it's one of the notes that we have of the - -385 -00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:26,720 -things that we want to discuss but i i think there is um such a thing as trying to monetize too early - -386 -00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:32,320 -as well as trying to monetize too late yeah of not thinking enough or of thinking too much about about - -387 -00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:42,560 -monetization um and particularly within within nostr i i i think within nostr everything like the right - -388 -00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:49,920 -approach we still don't know we we are finding it out uh we are exploring it if you try to say oh i'm - -389 -00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:58,080 -going to monetize right now via this way um and it's just copying how it's been done before you are - -390 -00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:04,240 -closing yourself off to new ideas there's an opportunity goes to the fact that you are going - -391 -00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:10,800 -for the uh oh i'll just put some advertisement on these products or or whatever uh i i just don't - -392 -00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:16,240 -think that's that's the um absolutely i i would argue even that we still don't know what steps are for - -393 -00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:21,440 -example yeah i completely agree like they're definitely not like just payments i think they're - -394 -00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,080 -also definitely not like just tips i i think they're also not just super likes or what have you and - -395 -00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:32,320 -all those kind of things and i think we can do a lot of stuff just by like we can do so much - -396 -00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:38,720 -exploration just by money seamlessly flowing through the system and that's very very much underexplored - -397 -00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:46,240 -but uh yeah we're so we're we're gonna continually explore it so that's the whole point of the whole - -398 -00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:52,800 -thing i think that might be a nice way to end the the first one i'm getting sunburned already and tired - -399 -00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:59,200 -so i'm like i know we're gonna start going uphill i'm very i'm very close to having a stroke basically - -400 -00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,600 -it's it's probably a great place to stop - -401 -00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:10,640 -but how did you think that was it useful maybe i think so for us yeah i think so i i i think it - -402 -00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,160 -it can be yeah we'll see we'll see what we'll see we'll see we'll see what we'll see we'll see what - -403 -00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,320 -people say we did it is the first episode after all yeah we we didn't talk about starcraft too much - -404 -00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,080 -so i apologize yeah yeah i mean obviously asleep right now - -405 -00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,600 -but yeah no we i mean i my my goal is to to continue to kind of pick your brain and discuss - -406 -00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:37,440 -these things and and hopefully hopefully going forward with uh um not too much inside the baseball - -407 -00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:42,960 -kind of you know like yeah i i really hope to open up the conversation uh and just bring like you - -408 -00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:49,360 -know random javascript developers in have no idea about bitcoin have no idea about how all this works - -409 -00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:55,760 -but uh maybe are attracted to you know like the making money part of it and are compelled to yeah - -410 -00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:05,440 -maybe as a last thought um um before we we we enter the hellish part um the the reason i think why - -411 -00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,880 -people should really care or developers should really care about nostr is that you as a developer - -412 -00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:17,760 -can actually not be rug pulled and that's a very underappreciated um kind of aspect of the whole - -413 -00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:23,200 -system because there's many people we should probably stop doing that there's many there's many people - -414 -00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:29,200 -that developed you know on top of the reddit api on top of the youtube api on top of whatever api - -415 -00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:34,800 -and then things change the company changes the api changes full rug pull like you know - -416 -00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:39,600 -business model change yeah all those kind of things and the the little app or thing or service - -417 -00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:45,920 -that you worked the last 10 years on completely like the foundation is it's a literal rug pull the - -418 -00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:54,720 -rug is pulled under you and and you're done for and i think you know like um if if our intuition is - -419 -00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:59,920 -right on nostr this this should never happen like you can actually build a long lasting literally - -420 -00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:04,400 -multi-generational business on top of nostr and i think that's very very compelling yeah we have - -421 -00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:09,600 -to figure out a ton of things still like we have to figure out like it's still very very imperfect - -422 -00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:14,720 -it's still ugly nostr started ugly we're still in the ugly face but i feel like we're getting out of - -423 -00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:22,160 -the ugly face and i think we we can um yeah have something it really feels to me like it it we have - -424 -00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:27,120 -the chance of building the next iteration of the internet and hopefully not repeat the mistakes of the - -425 -00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:34,800 -past yeah yeah absolutely uh to to me i've been on the on the indie maker community for decades at - -426 -00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:41,600 -this point and they're one hang up every single time it's never about the technique how do i build - -427 -00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:46,800 -the product that is never the question around the indie maker community it's always how do i get users - -428 -00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:53,920 -okay oh how do i do facebook ads because that's always the solution oh it's just run facebook ads - -429 -00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:59,760 -be very active on twitter reply to people it's always always about the distribution of your product - -430 -00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:06,960 -and in the in the indie writers community on fictional writers it's exactly the same problem you go to a - -431 -00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:13,600 -writers conference it's never about honing your craft it's always distribution how do i get distribution - -432 -00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:19,280 -and that is the one thing that nostr completely solves yeah completely you get it for free basically - -433 -00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:25,840 -you get it for free i i launched uh olas what was it like six weeks ago it immediately had users - -434 -00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:31,360 -yeah immediately had users it immediately had content there was immediately a reason to install the app - -435 -00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:36,560 -and to engage with the app yeah because there was something there it wasn't just dummy text or you - -436 -00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:41,520 -know reddit style make it till you fake it till you make it style it was actual content by actual people - -437 -00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:49,120 -yeah um and that is so powerful that is so powerful and is is is you're building on something - -438 -00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:55,600 -that like you said it cannot be why did singa work right they they singa built on top of facebook so - -439 -00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:02,320 -they they had the users but then facebook can fuck them of course immediately you are building - -440 -00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:08,720 -everything based on someone on someone else's land and they can take it away at any point with - -441 -00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:16,400 -enough so you get that is of course is way smaller than facebook and twitter obviously but you get - -442 -00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:22,480 -the same dynamics and i i think that if you if you extrapolate if you do the game theory there is going - -443 -00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:29,840 -to be more and more and we to me one of the things that shocked me um a few times already is companies - -444 -00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:37,280 -that have been at the social network game uh trying to create their own oh yeah trying to create from - -445 -00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:44,400 -which is fucking insanely hard yeah um already coming to nostril yeah and we have yeah a few - -446 -00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:50,080 -it's a very good example it's a very good sign yeah yeah we we have a few examples of companies that - -447 -00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:56,480 -are pre-seed nostril they they pre-date nostril and they are they are coming to nostril yeah to me that is - -448 -00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:03,440 -absolutely fascinating and that gravity only increases i agree i agree i agree awesome awesome fantastic - -449 -00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:11,680 -thanks pablo for suffering with me through those 45 minutes i think that was good so yeah we're gonna - -450 -00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:17,920 -try to do it again and yeah we're gonna ship it as soon as we can so that's the plan it's ugly we know - -451 -00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,320 -let's see let's see let's see if the recording actually worked and let's see if we if you can't - -452 -00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:29,920 -understand stuff but well let's hope let's hope that's fine that's fine that's fine no that would be - -453 -00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:37,360 -nice you're in the rocks we'll put everyone to sleep all right take care - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/02 - There is No Global - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/02 - There is No Global - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index 0eb8d1b0..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/02 - There is No Global - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,43 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "There is No Global" (Episode 02) - -**Context:** A roaming dialogue that digs into why a single, all-knowing "global view" is impossible in distributed systems and how that insight shapes Nostr, Bitcoin, and Sovereign Engineering design philosophy. - -## Core Themes & Principles - -1. **No Global Truth** - • Physics (latency, locality) makes a real-time, authoritative global state unattainable. - • Metrics like view-counts, likes, or usernames are always approximations or lies. - • Accepting this reality frees us to design fault-tolerant, user-controlled systems. - -2. **Local-First & Offline Resilience** - • Apps should work in flight-mode, storing state locally and syncing opportunistically. - • Embrace conflicts/CRDT merge instead of pretending they don't exist. - • An account or note can be spun up instantly—no server round-trip required. - -3. **Rugpull-Resistance = Killer Feature** - • Open protocols (Nostr, Bitcoin, eCash) ensure neither devs nor users can be deplatformed by API changes. - • "Build once, never be Reddit-rugged again." - -4. **Building Blocks, Not Walled Gardens** - • View NIPs (e.g., NIP-60/61 for eCash, NIP-89 for capability discovery) as Lego bricks. - • Compose services (Blossom, RoboSats, NDK) rather than capture users. - • Service operators can still earn sats—but transparently, without lock-in. - -5. **Value-for-Value & Direct Monetization** - • SAPs and Lightning let money flow from second 0—no Stripe, no KYC. - • Small "lemonade stands in cyberspace" beat VC-fuelled land-grabs. - • Open-source funding can be baked into fee models (e.g., RoboSats coordinators sharing profit). - -6. **Distributed Cognition** - • Hard problems (re-inventing the internet) require ongoing, public dialogue. - • Sovereign Engineering cohorts, No Solutions chats, and walking meetings cultivate shared language and memes ("Nostr is testnet"). - -## Implications for Sovereign Engineering Cohorts - -• Weekly demos force participants to confront trade-offs—no time to chase mythical perfect global states. -• Cohort tools now leverage Lego-style NIPs (Blossom for media, NDK for local-first code, NIP-89 for discovery). -• Conversations like this serve as time-capsules, refining the story newcomers hear: build local-first, expect conflicts, leverage sats, avoid rugpulls. - ---- - -Freedom demands embracing decentralised messiness. Ignore promises of "one global truth," build resilient local pieces, sync when you can, and let sats—and ideas—flow. This is Sovereign Engineering in practice. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/02 - There is No Global.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/02 - There is No Global.srt deleted file mode 100644 index 64451511..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/02 - There is No Global.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,3124 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,680 -I just, I won't look at the phone anymore. I'll trust it. I fully, I fully trust - -2 -00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:14,640 -technology. Is that better? Maybe? That's great. I don't know, we'll see. I never know - -3 -00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:19,920 -how to start these things. How are you doing, Pablo? Good morning. Good morning. - -4 -00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:26,640 -Pretty good. Excited. Another episode of No Solutions. Well, it's not even an - -5 -00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:32,320 -episode, right? It's a dialogue. Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I'm not sure. People - -6 -00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,880 -will call it episodes anyway, but I see there's a dialogue. You know, that's the - -7 -00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,760 -problem with naming. You're not in charge of naming. That's another thing. Like, - -8 -00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,720 -people, you're not even in charge of your name. People will call you whatever. - -9 -00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,200 -It's cool. School makes this very apparent. It doesn't matter what your name is. It's - -10 -00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:54,720 -like, you'll get your own name. Anyway, I digress already. So, yeah. We go on a tangent - -11 -00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,840 -before hitting any point whatsoever. I listened back to the first one and - -12 -00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:05,680 -and it's actually, I was able to listen to it. That's okay. So, the sound quality - -13 -00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:13,120 -was okay, but it's, I hope we will improve. But one thing that we didn't talk too much - -14 -00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,920 -about was, like, what this experiment actually is. We talked a little bit about, - -15 -00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,120 -you know, it kind of came out of sovereign engineering or some of the things we - -16 -00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:27,280 -discussed during sovereign engineering. We want to kind of refine and have a more - -17 -00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,560 -open, more public dialogue about it. And I think that's a large part of it. But it's also, - -18 -00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:44,880 -the way I view it is, the whole problem space is way too big for one person to come up with a solution - -19 -00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,840 -in some sense. So, the only thing we have is dialogue. I think to navigate this whole space, - -20 -00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,920 -like, how should we build it and how should we build it right? And how do we think about - -21 -00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:59,120 -Noster and SAPS and, you know, building something on a Bitcoin standard, building something, - -22 -00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,240 -like, rebuilding the internet, reinventing the internet on a Bitcoin standard, so to speak. - -23 -00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,840 -It's too big of a task for one person or even a couple of people. You need to - -24 -00:02:10,640 --> 00:02:16,320 -muddle your way through and talk about it and have many, many dialogues about what might be - -25 -00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:21,200 -not the correct solution. I don't think there is a correct solution, but what are the right trade-offs? - -26 -00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,200 -How can you think about it? What is the, what would be the pro or cons of doing it this way - -27 -00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:31,920 -as opposed to that way? And I think the way I see this, the way I see this, like, no solutions, - -28 -00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:38,160 -conversations, dialogues, whatever, is I want to talk to the people that are closest to that, - -29 -00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:44,320 -that have been closest to that for the longest time, and to kind of have a, almost like a time capsule, - -30 -00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:49,680 -in some sense. How did we think about it in January 2025? Oh, now it's February. So how did we think - -31 -00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:56,720 -about it? Time flies, man. And just to see where we're at, and maybe, maybe something useful comes - -32 -00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:04,640 -out of it. And maybe it's also, my hope is that we will also get better at explaining to regular people, - -33 -00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:11,920 -why is this exciting? Why is this a massive opportunity? And why, I think I mentioned it the - -34 -00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:16,000 -last time as well. If you're just a regular JavaScript developer or whatever, you just learned how to - -35 -00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:22,160 -code. Why should you take a look at this? And why is this exciting? Yeah, I think explaining these - -36 -00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:30,160 -things is, is just so hard. And the closer you are, the harder it gets. Um, I was listening to, - -37 -00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:38,000 -to, to Adam Curry on, uh, on Joe Rogan last night. Oh, he went again? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. - -38 -00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:44,160 -He was like six or seven times now already, I think. He's not regular. Yeah. Um, and at one point - -39 -00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:50,560 -he started talking about Bitcoin and the way he was explaining Bitcoin, it, it wasn't too compelling. - -40 -00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,680 -Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, no, but I, I believe in Bitcoin. No, - -41 -00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:03,280 -I don't believe on the other shit coins. And it, that puts them in regular, in the same footing, - -42 -00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:08,560 -you know, it's a, it's a belief system. And, and it's not about, oh, I believe in this one and you - -43 -00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:15,120 -believe on this other one. Yeah. Um, and I, I think it does, uh, a huge disservice when you - -44 -00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:22,480 -explain things in the wrong way. Yeah. Um, which is something that I see a lot. Um, I saw Hussard - -45 -00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:30,160 -wrote, uh, wrote, um, a long form made like a year ago, making that point, saying something like, - -46 -00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:37,200 -uh, a bad explanation is worse, worse than no explanation, which I think is a very good point. - -47 -00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,280 -Yeah, I think that's true. One of the things that you've mentioned a bunch of times in, uh, - -48 -00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:51,520 -in, in cyber engineering, uh, I think we, it's a, it's a good point to, to touch on is the, the - -49 -00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:57,440 -distributed cognition. Yeah. I think it's a very, very useful way of thinking. Yeah. You want to, - -50 -00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:04,480 -you want to touch on that? Yeah. I, I, I mean, those are not my ideas. Um, uh, there's a lot of, - -51 -00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:12,240 -you know, like people that are way smarter than me that point this out that all the hard problems, - -52 -00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:18,160 -all the interesting problems are actually not solved by one person. They're all solved by - -53 -00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:26,080 -distributed cognition, by, by like, you know, who runs an airline, for example, - -54 -00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:32,800 -who, who, who steers a large cruise ship. It's not like one guy you need, you need like a hundred - -55 -00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:39,840 -people to do these things and no single one person can tell you how it works or like who runs America - -56 -00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:44,880 -or who runs a big country or who runs a big corporation and so on. So we put systems in place - -57 -00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:51,440 -and we, we have various things that hopefully self-regulate and that's what in combination - -58 -00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:58,320 -with humans runs the thing. And I think, um, just kind of, you know, who came up with the idea of - -59 -00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:04,240 -X. It's a very hard X as a placeholder, not X as in like the new Twitter now. It's a very, - -60 -00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,880 -he ruined, he ruined the X word. - -61 -00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:14,000 -Yeah. Oh, what a shame. No, but it's a very, it's a very, um, hard question to answer because - -62 -00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:19,120 -you don't actually have like true real original thoughts, so to speak, like everything is a remix - -63 -00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:27,680 -of, of something else and so on and so forth. And so there is, um, I mean, the, the way I look at all - -64 -00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:34,160 -that is that there is a reason why, for example, in the West, the logos is sacred and why in the US, - -65 -00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,160 -the first amendment is the first amendment that it's about free speech and having the ability to - -66 -00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:47,040 -actually speak freely about things and discuss things. And the, it's, it's the only way to figure - -67 -00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:55,280 -out what you actually need to do. It's the only way to get a grasp on a complex thing that doesn't - -68 -00:06:55,280 --> 00:07:02,320 -have a well-defined problem space. And I think all those things are the most interesting problems. - -69 -00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:07,920 -All the most interesting problems don't have like a definite solution. Evolution is a great example. - -70 -00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:12,720 -Yeah. Like, like the problem space of life itself. What is the perfect organism? There is no perfect - -71 -00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:18,080 -organism. The question makes no sense. Exactly. The question makes no sense. And I, I view Nostar - -72 -00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,280 -under the same light, for example, I view the stuff that we are doing under the same light. What is the - -73 -00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:26,240 -perfect Nostar app? There is no perfect Nostar app. It's, it's first, first of all, it's even hard to - -74 -00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:32,960 -even say what Nostar is in, in, in, like to box it in, in some sense. Yeah. And, and I think that's why - -75 -00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,880 -you can't figure it out. Like you, as a single person, you can't figure it out. You don't, you don't - -76 -00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,520 -even know. Like, even if you build a thing and you think you understand it from start to finish, - -77 -00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,440 -if you, if you actually shoot it out into the wild, if you actually ship it, if you actually release it, - -78 -00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:54,720 -the people will use it in surprising ways. That's always what happens. So you don't even understand - -79 -00:07:54,720 --> 00:08:00,000 -what you built yourself. You know, like the people that, that created Viagra, for example, - -80 -00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,080 -thought it was a heart medicine, you know, like it's, I always use this example because most people - -81 -00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:10,240 -know it. And that's true for absolutely everything, you know, like it's true. It's true across the board, - -82 -00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:18,240 -like pick your thing that was invented. The people will use it in very surprising ways. And, and, and so I, I, - -83 -00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:28,560 -I think we're at a point now where, um, it's absolutely crucial to have these conversations - -84 -00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:35,600 -and also involve kind of, how should I put it? Let me start, let me start somewhere else. - -85 -00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:42,320 -I think we figured out a lot of things by building the first iteration of the internet. - -86 -00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:50,000 -Hmm. And a lot of like rebel is a great example. Rebel knows a lot of things about social media - -87 -00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,640 -and the history of social media and how things went and, and how all this built and how this came about. - -88 -00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,000 -And he knows all the mistakes that were made along the way, basically. - -89 -00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:05,360 -So it's important to really hear these people and not repeat those mistakes. I think, I think it's, - -90 -00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:13,200 -it's, we, we actually have a chance of, you know, building the next iteration of the free and open - -91 -00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:20,000 -internet. And I would like, it would be a missed opportunity if we repeat the mistakes of the past. - -92 -00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:25,840 -Yeah. And I, I think one of the, the things, um, one of the benefits of having these conversations - -93 -00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:33,760 -and especially about opening them up, uh, like we're doing now is that it, it is very easy - -94 -00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:44,320 -to just default to no store. And like the stuff that we're working on, it technically, it looks - -95 -00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:50,960 -a lot like the old world, um, like the peer to peer, like the strictly peer to peer technologies - -96 -00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:56,880 -with a VHD, they architecturally, they look very different than a client server model. - -97 -00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,040 -No store looks a lot like a client server model. It looks very, very similar. It's just changes. - -98 -00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:07,440 -It's a very small change that is incredibly significant. Yeah. The servers are stupid - -99 -00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,560 -and very much replaceable. And also you don't use one server. And the data, I think that's the main - -100 -00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:18,320 -difference. And the data is there. Yes, exactly. The authenticity of the data is in the data. And - -101 -00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:23,120 -that makes all the difference. Yeah. All the difference. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter if the, - -102 -00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:29,840 -the data is coming from, uh, a server that you do not trust, the signature is there. That's all that matters. - -103 -00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:35,760 -Yeah. Um, but from an architectural standpoint, it looks very similar. Yeah. It looks extremely, - -104 -00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,400 -extremely similar. So it would be very easy to default. And it is something that we keep - -105 -00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:47,120 -seeing. It is very easy to default to having the same answers that we had before. Yeah. The same - -106 -00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:52,640 -answers of how do you grow? Trying the same thing because it worked in the past. Exactly. Exactly. And - -107 -00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:58,480 -just trying to rebuild the same thing. Um, and I think opening up these conversations - -108 -00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:06,240 -where we have free, because that it is the thing that we do not have the answers. Yeah. Yeah. We, - -109 -00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:10,400 -we are not recording ourselves thinking, Oh, this is how you need to do it. Yeah. No, not at all. - -110 -00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,600 -Uh, it, it is quite the opposite is we are opening up. Trying to figure it out. We're trying to figure it out. - -111 -00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:22,560 -Yeah. Like the first slide or among the first two or three slides on the day one of server engineering - -112 -00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:28,320 -is you are the guinea pig. Yeah. Yeah. Which is still true. Yeah. It is very much true. Yeah. Um, - -113 -00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:34,320 -and we are, and we are too, and we are too a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. We're just trying to figure - -114 -00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:40,800 -these things out and what this is, right? Yeah. Yeah. I, I think, I think the, - -115 -00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:50,880 -the default architecture of how most of the things in the web work right now, they, over the last 20 - -116 -00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:58,160 -years or so, they impressed various thoughts into the minds of people and developers. And it's very, - -117 -00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,800 -very, very hard to undo that. And it's actually lies. I mean, you talked about this a couple of - -118 -00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:07,120 -times already, but it's very much worth pointing out. And it's one of the, one of the themes we, - -119 -00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,840 -we had in, uh, in the courts as well. It's like, for example, there is no global, there is no global - -120 -00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,240 -view of the whole thing. It's impossible. It's an impossible problem. If you want to have a global - -121 -00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,720 -view, you need to actually build Bitcoin. You need to rebuild Bitcoin. You need proof of work, - -122 -00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:26,000 -all the limitations, everything, everything else is a lie. Yeah. You know, like the, the, - -123 -00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:31,440 -the global view count of a, of a YouTube video is a lie. It's a complete lie. You can't have the - -124 -00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:36,800 -global view. It's, it's, it's always wrong. It's always outdated. This is how, because the speed of - -125 -00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,880 -light and how information works and all of it, it's like, I don't want to get into the deal of why it's, - -126 -00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,840 -the details of why it is a lie, but it's always a lie. The like count of your, of your, of your tweet, - -127 -00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,960 -it's a lie and so on and so forth. And even within Bitcoin, Bitcoin, you, you need to reveal - -128 -00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:56,560 -Bitcoin. Bitcoin only claims to have the truth of its own system. Oh, absolutely. And that's why - -129 -00:12:56,560 --> 00:13:02,080 -inscribing shit on the blockchain is retarded, right? We already talked about the retardation of - -130 -00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:08,080 -NFTs last time. Let's not repeat that. But, but, but Bitcoin doesn't claim to have a global view of - -131 -00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,480 -the other stuff, of everything that is not within the system. You can't have that. But, but I think - -132 -00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:21,840 -that's so, that's so, you just have to be okay with having an incomplete view of the thing. Yeah. - -133 -00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:27,760 -You just have to be okay with things potentially being out of order or incomplete or what have you. - -134 -00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:33,280 -That's just, that's just how the world works. And there is no way around it. If you, if you, and, and, - -135 -00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:38,480 -and the reason why I think it's super important to, to, to talk about this and, and really like, - -136 -00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:43,360 -we have to land on some things where you really drive this into people's heads, because it's like, - -137 -00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:48,720 -if you, if you fix this, like, if you fix this problem, you reintroduce centralization, - -138 -00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:54,480 -you have a central authority. And with that, with that fix, with that supposed fix of the problem, - -139 -00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,600 -you reintroduce all the things that made all the stuff that we use right now terrible. - -140 -00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:05,920 -There is no way around it. So you, you just have to be okay with there being no global. And that's just - -141 -00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:12,080 -how it is. Yeah. I think that they are, there are things that we don't know. And there are things - -142 -00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:18,160 -that we do know. And it's, it's provable, provably impossible to have a global view. - -143 -00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,320 -Yeah. It just makes no sense. From, from a, and, um, - -144 -00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,280 -In physics terms, it makes no sense. Yeah. And so you just have to be okay with that. And also it's, - -145 -00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:37,760 -it's, uh, there, there, there, there's just, I don't know, there, there's so many problems that are - -146 -00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:44,080 -like this. And, and I feel like we, you know, I don't know, maybe we should list them all out and - -147 -00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:49,600 -kind of, maybe that would be helpful. But one, one issue is like the, the, the problem of naming - -148 -00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,880 -came up so often, which is the same problem. It is the same problem, which relates to, um, - -149 -00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:02,880 -there is no global database of, um, like handles of like usernames. If you have one, then again, - -150 -00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:08,960 -it's like you, you, if you're, you're back at square one, where there is a central server, which - -151 -00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:15,200 -tells the world, like, who is who it's a problem that DNS tries to solve. That's why DNS is like - -152 -00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,720 -one of the archival skills of the internet, because it's like, it's a centralized solution. It's like, - -153 -00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:24,960 -you have to map IP addresses to human readable and understandable names. And so there's a central - -154 -00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,320 -registry and that's how things work. But as we know, a central registry, the issue with a central - -155 -00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:37,520 -registry is whoever is in charge can remove the entry points, can remove the, the, whatever is in - -156 -00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:46,160 -the register. And so if we actually care about long lived and I kind of hate the word censorship - -157 -00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:52,080 -persistent because that's, it's also, it's, it's such bad marketing in some sense, if you want to have - -158 -00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:58,400 -something that has a hundred percent uptime, which says the same thing, um, then you must not have the - -159 -00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,360 -central register because the central register can get down, uh, can go down. And I think all of this - -160 -00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:09,680 -stuff is important to, to, I don't hear this talked about too often. It's I, or let me rephrase that. - -161 -00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:17,120 -A lot of people do talk about this stuff, but new people come in, they try to build something, - -162 -00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,200 -they build something and they try to fix exactly these issues. And they try to give everyone in - -163 -00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,760 -Noster like a username, for example, that works everywhere and so on. And, and, and so, okay, - -164 -00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,920 -that shows me they haven't ever deeply thought about these issues and they don't understand the - -165 -00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:35,360 -problem space, right? Because it's impossible. You're trying to do an impossible thing. So maybe don't - -166 -00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:42,880 -spend your time on trying to fix the impossible problems, trying to fix the possible problems - -167 -00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:49,680 -and be okay with some things being messy and remaining messy. Yeah. To me, one of the interesting - -168 -00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:56,720 -aspects of, of just freedom tech in general is, I mean, as Matt would say, how much it humbles you, - -169 -00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:05,200 -how much it, it forces you to be okay with constraints that are unremovable. There are constraints - -170 -00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:14,400 -that cannot be withdrawn. Um, and it is a, it, I, I think it's, um, it's a very self-actualizing, - -171 -00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:23,120 -um, moment where, when, when you accept the constraints and you accept moving forward without - -172 -00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:29,520 -trying to be perfect, without trying to have the username, without trying to have perfect data, - -173 -00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:36,320 -data guarantees, like, that's also something that keeps coming up, is the, the guarantee of the data. - -174 -00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:45,360 -There are no guarantees. You cannot have them. Yeah, no, it's, yeah, I, and I feel like... - -175 -00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:50,240 -By guarantee, I mean the availability of the data. Yeah, sure. No, but that's the best you can do. - -176 -00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,640 -I mean, and I feel like we, we know this. Every, everyone who, whoever, like, you know, - -177 -00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,120 -like, everyone who has been around a couple of years and worked with computer stuff for us, - -178 -00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:03,360 -a computer scientist and so on, it's like, RAID chose this clearly, for example. RAID is a great - -179 -00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:07,440 -example of like, okay, there's only these couple of trade-offs. If you have a RAID system, what do - -180 -00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,320 -you want to achieve? You want to achieve that if one hard disk goes bad, not everything is fucked. - -181 -00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:18,080 -And so there's these different kind of RAID levels and so on. And, and if you compare RAID to Bitcoin, - -182 -00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:23,280 -for example, Bitcoin is like an extreme RAID system, where it's like, as long as one - -183 -00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:29,600 -hard disk, so to speak, survives, everything is fine. For RAID is like RAID 5, for example, - -184 -00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,080 -if like one goes bad, you're still fine. If two go bad, you're fucked again, you know? - -185 -00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,400 -And, and so, so that's the trade-off that you have. There's like, how, how fault tolerant is - -186 -00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:43,920 -the system? And I think that's, that's what, from an engineering perspective, that's what we should - -187 -00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,960 -focus on. If you want to have something that's long lived and resilient, it has to be fault tolerant. - -188 -00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,480 -Central servers are not fault tolerant. And we see this over and over again. I mean, - -189 -00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,360 -we see it like, you know, everyone uses Wallet of Satoshi to receive steps. Wallet of Satoshi gets - -190 -00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:03,200 -banned from the US. Okay. Everyone who is in the US has to use something else. It's not very fault - -191 -00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:08,480 -tolerant, you know? We see it also, you know, like, uh, lots of people nowadays use Primal. - -192 -00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,640 -And don't get me wrong. I love Primal. I think they're, they're doing a great job of, you know, - -193 -00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:18,320 -getting, pushing NOSTA forward in terms of UX and just raising the bar higher and so on. But if Primal goes - -194 -00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,960 -down, if the caching server goes down, if the wallet goes down, like it goes down for many, - -195 -00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:28,000 -many, many, many, many people. And I think that's why that's, that's actually what, what NOSTA, - -196 -00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,840 -from an architecture standpoint, is really, really right. If like, if one relay goes down, - -197 -00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:39,440 -it doesn't matter. Like we'll nuke the Damus relay, I think like at least two times by now. And - -198 -00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,920 -Damus is used by a lot of people and it's a big relay. That didn't matter at all. You didn't even feel it. - -199 -00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,480 -It didn't matter at all. You can't even tell. Yeah. You can't tell that the thing happened. - -200 -00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,160 -And, and so if you have a system that works like this, I think that's the right approach. And that's - -201 -00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,440 -why, you know, like, I think there is a way of building it right, so to speak. I think Blossom - -202 -00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,760 -would be another example. You know, we're not there yet because we don't have like, not every client - -203 -00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,720 -has like automatically healing links and all those kinds of things. But in theory, it's, it's the same - -204 -00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:11,760 -principle. Um, just like with NOSTA, if one relay goes down, it doesn't matter. If one Bitcoin node goes - -205 -00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,560 -down, it doesn't matter, you know, and if one Blossom server goes down, it also doesn't, it shouldn't - -206 -00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,640 -matter. It's like, you just grab it from somewhere else. But again, it's like a trade-off. There is - -207 -00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:25,360 -no perfect solution because the answer can also be like, if we want to rebuild YouTube, for example, - -208 -00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:31,360 -you can't host every single video on every single hard disk of the world. You know, that also doesn't - -209 -00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:37,680 -make sense. So, so what is the right trade-off balance? What is the right amount of, of, of - -210 -00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,840 -replication? What is the right amount of deduplication? And so on. And also if you overdo it, I mean, - -211 -00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:47,040 -IPFS showed this clearly. They had other problems as well, but IPFS, they, they did deduplication to - -212 -00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:52,480 -the max. And then it was impossible to retrieve files because it's just like one shard goes offline - -213 -00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:57,280 -and you can't, you can't reassemble your file. And it was just way too complicated. But anyway, - -214 -00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,200 -Fiat Jeff has a lot to say about IPFS. - -215 -00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:06,080 -Fiat Jeff probably has no funds. I think you want to be at the systemic level, - -216 -00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:12,560 -you want to be for a hundred percent fault tolerant at the edges is, is perfectly acceptable to not be - -217 -00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,840 -fault tolerant. Oh, absolutely. But, but that also, that also leads us to, to the next issue of - -218 -00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:25,200 -this doesn't come for free. So someone has to run the things and someone has to actually, - -219 -00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,120 -you know, like host your image or also run the relay and all those kinds of things, - -220 -00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:34,160 -or run the mint or run the Bitcoin notes and so on. And so, so it all kind of hangs together because you, - -221 -00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:41,680 -you will never have the perfect solution of like, it's super easy to use. It's super fast. - -222 -00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,440 -It's like super convenient. It's super fault tolerant and it's free and you don't have to think - -223 -00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,840 -about anything and you don't have to do anything. It's not how the world works. It's also, - -224 -00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,560 -again, no free lunch. Yeah. There literally is no free lunch. And you see this, - -225 -00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:02,800 -I mean, that's true across all areas of life. Not everyone can have their private chauffeur and, - -226 -00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,760 -you know, that goes on, that comes in the Rolls Royce and so on. Like most people will need to - -227 -00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,360 -learn how to drive and use their own car and potentially fix their own car, all those kinds - -228 -00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:17,040 -of things and so on. And yes, we can make steps towards that direction as was shown with Uber and - -229 -00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,200 -bold and so on, make it easier, make it more convenient and so on. But it's still, it's like, - -230 -00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,880 -you're living in the European Union, there's a new stupid law passed, Uber is illegal, - -231 -00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,880 -we're back to square one. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know. - -232 -00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:37,840 -Yeah. So, from the work that I've been doing with NIP-60 and NIP-61… - -233 -00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,840 -It came out of conversations like this, by the way. - -234 -00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:51,520 -100%. The number one issue that people raise is, oh wait, but the mints can rug you. Yeah. Yes, - -235 -00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:56,720 -they can. That's the idea. That is the idea. You should never put a meaningful amount of money into - -236 -00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:03,040 -the thing. It is not for your cold storage, but it comes from this sense of, I should have perfect - -237 -00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:09,120 -guarantees of everything. It should be seamless UX and no one should be able to rug you. Yeah, - -238 -00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:15,920 -perfectly secure, perfectly available, all those kind of things. And like, I think one of the, - -239 -00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:22,480 -I, I mentioned, I, I did this, this, uh, this talk in, uh, in summer engineering about the, the, - -240 -00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:29,040 -the summer in Legos. It's about having building blocks. Yeah. With different trade-offs, because it - -241 -00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:34,480 -is all about the trade-offs. With different trade-offs that increase the design space that we have - -242 -00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:41,040 -available. Yeah. The tools that we can. Yeah. So, I, I don't see, obviously, I don't see, uh, - -243 -00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:48,720 -not Sagan and Ip60 as the VF. Yeah, yeah. I, I don't have most of my Bitcoin there, obviously. Yeah, - -244 -00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:55,680 -yeah, yeah. But it is one more tool. Yeah. And then LSPs and opening your own channels is, - -245 -00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,560 -it's also a tool, and liquid can be a tool, and site-chasing, no, but. Yeah. - -246 -00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:09,360 -Yeah. Um, um, yeah, but I think the issue is we don't even understand the tools right, and most - -247 -00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:14,560 -people, um, don't know about the tools at all, basically. I think that's the issue. I think in, - -248 -00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,000 -in the real world, so to speak, we don't have this issue. Most people know what a hammer is, - -249 -00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,080 -most people know what a sharp knife is, most people know what a saw is, and so on, and they know - -250 -00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:28,000 -when to use what, you know? Like, most people don't try to eat their, I don't know, like soup with - -251 -00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,400 -a chainsaw. It's like, that's, we understand the various tools and the various. There probably - -252 -00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:38,400 -was someone. I'm sure someone tried. I'm sure someone tried. But, but still, like, we are at - -253 -00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:44,640 -a point now where, like, we just built the tools, like, basically yesterday. Yeah, 100%. Absolutely. - -254 -00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:50,400 -Again, I keep coming back to Blossom, just, uh, I like it a lot. Yeah, that's the main reason. But, - -255 -00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:57,600 -it's also, um, so, a little over a year ago, it didn't exist at all, not even as an idea. - -256 -00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,920 -And, um, now it's, it hosts this podcast. So, this podcast, now I call it a podcast. - -257 -00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:10,080 -Oh, goddammit. See, that's how, that's how indoctrinated I am. So, just, just for the record, - -258 -00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,080 -this will not be a, just another podcast. This thing will end, and it's like, we're gonna have - -259 -00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,960 -a couple of conversations, record them, and that's gonna be it. But still, the fucking ep3 files, - -260 -00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,840 -they're served on the Blossom server. So, if we are right about our assumptions, and things work out, - -261 -00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:30,880 -as we hope they will, like, this will be around for a while, and, uh, it will be very hard to - -262 -00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:38,720 -get rid of the mp3 files, potentially. And so, um, now I lost my train of thought. Where was I going? - -263 -00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,280 -It's the waves. They're so loud. Enjoy, enjoy the breeze. - -264 -00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,880 -We, we barely, we, we just made the tools. Oh, yeah, exactly. Like a year ago. So, a year ago, - -265 -00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:56,400 -all of this stuff, most of this stuff didn't exist. Like, uh, NIP-60 is like, I don't know, - -266 -00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,560 -six months old now or so. Yeah, maybe six months. And, and we're just figuring out, okay, when can we - -267 -00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,440 -use this? How do we use this? And when does it make sense? Where does it fit? Yeah, exactly. And I - -268 -00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,640 -really like the building block idea. I think, I think that's also, that's also, I think now is the - -269 -00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:17,440 -right time to really open it up and talk about all this stuff. Because I really think we have - -270 -00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:25,840 -almost all of the building blocks now. It's, I think, two years ago, three years ago, I wouldn't - -271 -00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,480 -have been as bullish as I am now because there was a lot of stuff missing. Like, how do we do this? - -272 -00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:36,640 -And what about privacy? What about DNS? All those kinds of things. And, and we, we have made so much - -273 -00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:44,800 -progress in figuring out all these little things. Like, how do you, you know, like, um, how do you look - -274 -00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,920 -up other people? How do you look up other relays? How do you, how do you do discovery and Osterite - -275 -00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,640 -without relying too much on DNS, for example, and all those kinds of things. And we figured out a couple of - -276 -00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:01,520 -things and, and I think, yeah, maybe, maybe that would be one outcome. Just be very clear about what - -277 -00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:07,920 -kind of Lego pieces we have, so to speak. Yeah. I'm not sure. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, - -278 -00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:17,440 -uh, that's a useful. So for, for example, I, I think, um, NIP 89, which is the, the discovery NIP, - -279 -00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:23,920 -uh, and I gave a talk in, um, in Tokyo about, uh, discoverability in Osterite doesn't suck. - -280 -00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:31,760 -And I, I think NIP 89 is a, is a good example because in the past, I mean, in the present, - -281 -00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:39,040 -we, we think about app discovery and by app discovery, I mean, capability discovery. - -282 -00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:44,960 -Yeah. Uh, via going to some fucking officer and, and getting, and getting, uh, getting, - -283 -00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:55,040 -seeing what's possible. And I, I think NIP 89 is like, uh, is still a very underexplored, um, - -284 -00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:01,760 -building block that we have available, which is radically different because instead of going to - -285 -00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:10,400 -this place where you, you find what can I do, you, you see the people doing the thing. It's, - -286 -00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,120 -it's the same principle, right? Like the app speaks for itself, what it can do. Yes. Yes. - -287 -00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:18,800 -Yes. It's just like the, the, the signed message speaks for itself. - -288 -00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:25,440 -Very much. It's, it's very much the same principle. And so how do you, because it's also - -289 -00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,000 -like in, in, in an Oster world, like how do you get to the sign Jason? It doesn't matter whether it - -290 -00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,960 -comes from a central server or whether you got it on a USB stick or whatever, just like how, - -291 -00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:40,240 -how do you get a new valid Bitcoin block? It doesn't matter. That data speaks for itself. So - -292 -00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,760 -it, it, that's the only way how it can work so that it can ignore any central authority, - -293 -00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,200 -any supposed central authority. And this is the same idea, right? Like you basically ask the app, - -294 -00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:57,120 -tell in a self-sufficient manner, what you can do and what you can handle and how people discover you - -295 -00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,840 -and, and get to know, get to get, get a hold of this information. It doesn't matter. - -296 -00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,520 -Yeah. The, the people, the people interacting with the tool is the distribution of the tool. - -297 -00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:14,000 -Yeah. And, and you, you're just, if I see that you are live streaming, for example, - -298 -00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:21,120 -and, and I follow you and I see that you are doing the thing and I'm unsure what the thing is, like, - -299 -00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:29,120 -like, why, what, what is GG? What's the context here? NIP89 is that building block that, that takes - -300 -00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:34,960 -you from that point of utter confusion of what's going on to, oh, this is a live stream. I didn't - -301 -00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:40,000 -even know that this was possible. Yeah. Um, and I'm using live stream as a placeholder because - -302 -00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:46,720 -literally anything, all the things fit in that, in that, in that box. Yeah. And that is just one more - -303 -00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:53,280 -building block. It is just very different, very new. It's a very, it's a very different idea. There is - -304 -00:29:53,280 --> 00:30:02,880 -no equivalent on, on, on, on the legacy web, uh, that has that capability. Again, Natsack is another, - -305 -00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:08,480 -Blossom is another, Ensight is another. There is so many of these tools that are just completely different. - -306 -00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:15,040 -Um, or not completely different. Blossom is not completely different. Blossom solves a very known - -307 -00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:22,160 -problem. How many times have we tried to solve? Oh, many times. So many times. Yeah. And this is such - -308 -00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:28,880 -a stupid, simple, left side of the curve solution. Yeah. And it will also, it will not work for - -309 -00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:34,080 -everything. Oh, no, no. It's like, torrents might be the better solution for, for some things, you know, - -310 -00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:39,360 -like really large file stream or whatever. I don't know, but it's, it, it's not a one size fits all - -311 -00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,480 -solution. There, there isn't any, right? Yeah, there isn't. Right. That's the point of the - -312 -00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,960 -thing. There is no solution. Okay. We arrived. There's only, there's only, there's only trade-offs. - -313 -00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:54,240 -Yeah. That's the whole point. No, but I, yeah, I really liked it. But I, I, I coming back to what you - -314 -00:30:54,240 --> 00:31:02,560 -said about Adam Curry explaining the coin on Rogan and doing not the best job he could do. I think - -315 -00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:11,280 -that's where we are at in the Nostra developer space right now. I feel like, um, I think everyone - -316 -00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,960 -has their own reason to work on this stuff and be excited about, about it and so on. And there, - -317 -00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:23,280 -there might be quite a bit of overlap in regards to what are these reasons, but I think we're not very - -318 -00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,800 -good yet at explaining like, why, why should you take a look at this? I mean, just like with, with - -319 -00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:35,280 -Bitcoin, we were, I think kind of terrible in some sense, um, trying to explain to the world why, why - -320 -00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,840 -is this important and why should you take a look at it and so on. With Bitcoin, it's I think harder - -321 -00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:46,960 -because money is like an icky subject. Yeah. Um, most people, you know, like either have too much or too - -322 -00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:52,560 -little and it's always a taboo subject and, and people. And also the Bitcoin approach is so - -323 -00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,080 -counterintuitive. If you, if you believe in Bitcoin the first time you heard it, you're - -324 -00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:01,760 -either a massive genius or you need to arrive to the conclusion it's obviously a scam. - -325 -00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:09,200 -Yeah, it's, um, I think we'll have an easier time now, but it's still, it's still kind of weird - -326 -00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:15,840 -and some things are counterintuitive. And, and I think, I think the, the killer app of Nostra is you - -327 -00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,000 -can't be rug pulled. I think that's the killer app. Yeah. I really think that's a killer app, both for - -328 -00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:25,040 -the users and for the developers. I think everything else is kind of like a side use - -329 -00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:30,320 -case in some sense. And, but I, I do agree with, with, um, um, what a lot of people are saying, - -330 -00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,720 -like in the end we will be better than the centralized solutions, but you see this also, - -331 -00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,800 -you see this again, coming back to Bitcoin. - -332 -00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:42,880 -It is, it is, it is another Bitcoin podcast. It's, it's terrible. I hate myself right now. - -333 -00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,280 -It is a podcast. Oh my God. - -334 -00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:54,480 -Failing on all fronts. But, but fiat credit rails can never do what Bitcoin does. It's impossible. - -335 -00:32:54,480 --> 00:33:02,480 -Yeah. So Bitcoin, give them enough time and innovation. Bitcoin has to be better than fiat credit rails. - -336 -00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:08,320 -There is no other way. There is no other way. It's, it's, it's, it's the better thing. It's the - -337 -00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,960 -better solution. It's the superior system. And there's many technical reasons why this is the case. - -338 -00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,600 -And I, you know, I don't want to waste time to get into those. I think the same is true for Nostra. - -339 -00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:26,000 -I think it's the superior solution. It really is. And I think the, the legacy centralized systems - -340 -00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:32,400 -that we now have with, you know, like YouTube and X and Instagram and whatnot, and I don't know, - -341 -00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:38,640 -TikTok and so on, they will never be able to do what Nostra will be able to do or what Nostra already - -342 -00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:47,600 -is able to do. Like SAPs show this very clearly. Like you can only do like micropayments without a - -343 -00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:53,200 -signup. You can only do on Nostra and with Bitcoin. There is no other way. Everything else, - -344 -00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,400 -like that, that's already something that we can do way better than anyone else. - -345 -00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:05,200 -And we'll have more and more and more of those things, but I don't think that's the killer feature. - -346 -00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:11,280 -I think SAPs is an incredibly important feature. I think it's a novel thing. I think, again, I think - -347 -00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:17,760 -we don't understand it right yet. I, I hope to talk about SAPs at length at one point, but, but, but not - -348 -00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:27,120 -today. Another day. But the, the thing about being rug pull resistant is something, - -349 -00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,720 -it actually solves a problem. It solves a problem for users and it solves a problem for developers. - -350 -00:34:32,720 --> 00:34:37,440 -How many people have there been that built their whole developer career about the fucking Reddit API? - -351 -00:34:38,240 --> 00:34:43,280 -They're all rug pulled now. Everything is garbage now. And the same goes for YouTube and every other - -352 -00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,680 -API and all those kinds of things. It all goes away. Every API, even if you don't get cut off, - -353 -00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,600 -the API just changes the interface and you're fucked again. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -354 -00:34:51,600 --> 00:35:00,240 -Absolutely. No, it's terrible. And, and so, so. I, I tell you, one of the, one of the moments where - -355 -00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:09,520 -I said, all right, I, I need to go full on, on Noster was that company that we, uh, that I was working - -356 -00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:19,600 -in, um, uh, the KYC issues and they were changing the, the, uh, provider for their KYC and their, uh, - -357 -00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:26,720 -banking partners and whatnot. Everything's different. I, I, I had to start learning a new API from some - -358 -00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:33,920 -proprietary KYC thing and I was hating every single second of it. And I was comparing the work that - -359 -00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:40,480 -I was doing in Noster with learning this stupid fucking API, hating myself. It's like, no, this, - -360 -00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:47,280 -this cannot be it. There has to be a better way. There's got to be a better way. Yeah. Yeah. - -361 -00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:53,200 -No, it's awesome. It's just not fun. It's not fun. It sucks. It's, you know that you're wasting your - -362 -00:35:53,200 --> 00:36:00,960 -time. Yeah. You're building that, you know, I had this friend, um, who works on, uh, civil engineering - -363 -00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:09,440 -and he was, he was working on, on designing dams. And he was telling me that the calculations that they - -364 -00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:16,400 -make, uh, have to build in the assumption that the dam must last for 500 years. Yeah. And I was - -365 -00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:24,240 -wondering what piece of code have, have I written that has withstood 10 years, right? How, how much - -366 -00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:30,560 -code, what's the percentage of code that has been written that have withstood one year? It's, it's, - -367 -00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,600 -it's almost all disposable, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's, it's kind of a sad state of - -368 -00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:42,160 -affairs, right? Yeah. It's, um, but I mean, with the dams, it's interesting because, because that's - -369 -00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:47,040 -the right way of, of looking at the problem. It's like, if, if a flood comes, it's a catastrophic - -370 -00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:53,600 -event and one time in a hundred years, a really big flood comes. So the whole dam has to be built - -371 -00:36:53,600 --> 00:37:00,800 -to withstand this event. It's like, uh, uh, you know, once, once in a lifetime kind of catastrophic - -372 -00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,800 -flood or earthquake or what have you, and you have to take all that into account. And if you're doing - -373 -00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:11,920 -your thing properly, then it actually works. And we do very, very little of that, um, in the kind - -374 -00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:18,000 -of, you know, like thinking about the web infrastructure and the internet infrastructure - -375 -00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:24,720 -of, of, of those kinds of things or, or building out products or building out various systems that - -376 -00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:31,520 -the most things are completely disposable. And, and I, I'm old enough now that I really kind of, - -377 -00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,880 -you know, I'm a grumpy old man where it's just like, I saw all the things come and go. Can we kind - -378 -00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,840 -of stop doing that? Doing like the next MySpace and then it goes away and then we, we move on to - -379 -00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,760 -something else and then it goes away. And then, and, and it also, it iterates quicker and quicker - -380 -00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,400 -and quicker because things speed up. And then it, it, then it was this. And then it's like, - -381 -00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,400 -it was musically and musically was around for, I don't know, 10 months and then it became TikTok. - -382 -00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,960 -And now TikTok basically got banned or whatever. And people moved on to the other thing, Snapchat, - -383 -00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,360 -I forgot Snapchat and all those kinds of things. It's, it's also fine. You know, like the, the new - -384 -00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,080 -generation has to find their own thing. And it's like, you don't want to join Facebook because mom is on - -385 -00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,640 -Facebook and so on. It's all, it's all okay. It's, it's, I don't want to be too grumpy and too old. - -386 -00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:18,640 -Like I do, I think I do understand it to some extent, but still like, if it comes to infrastructure - -387 -00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:24,160 -stuff, you know, it's, that's why I like email so much. It's like email. I, um, yeah, I just, - -388 -00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:30,800 -I actually just mentioned this yesterday. It's like people thought ICQ was superior to email. - -389 -00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,880 -You know, email is still around, ICQ isn't. So email got something right. And so can we, can we, - -390 -00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:42,880 -can we do more of this? Yeah. I think when, when one of the, the incredible benefits that gets you - -391 -00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:49,840 -not quite there, but very close to there is what we discussed a few times when you decouple the - -392 -00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,880 -building of the, of the software and the running of the software, if you like built infrastructure, - -393 -00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:01,760 -don't run it. The authors of RFC 822, they've, they've all moved on from SMTP. They're all retired. - -394 -00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:07,360 -Yeah. But they were not running the thing. Yeah. They, they weren't in charge of running the SMTP - -395 -00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:12,720 -servers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think what, what kind of, I mean, they were all - -396 -00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:18,320 -idealists as, as were the early internet people. Yeah. And I think Noster is full of idealists. - -397 -00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:31,840 -Yeah. And, and that's perfectly fine. But I think, I think we have an opportunity now to mix the best - -398 -00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:37,760 -of both worlds because I am a capitalist as well, you know, like it's contrary, contrary to popular - -399 -00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,800 -belief. I like Stallman and the new licenses, but I'm still not a communist, you know, like I'm not a - -400 -00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:49,120 -full blown commie. Sorry. So shocked. Sorry to disappoint. But, but I mean, there's a reason - -401 -00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,160 -why we were never, uh, able to build out the 402 error code payment required. It just, it didn't - -402 -00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:59,840 -work. It doesn't work on, on, on, on Fiat payment rails. It just, it doesn't work. It can not work. - -403 -00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,920 -They didn't understand this back then. I'm convinced that like, it's very hard to really understand this - -404 -00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:10,160 -and really internalize it that, that Fiat implies like Fiat credit, Fiat rails are credit rails and - -405 -00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:15,840 -credit requires KYC. And so you can't do all those things. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's something - -406 -00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,520 -that took me like years and years and years to figure out. And I feel like most people still - -407 -00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:26,160 -haven't figured this out in some sense. It's, it's, and so now we have now, now we actually have - -408 -00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,560 -the building block with, you know, like for example, e-cash. E-cash is a great example for that. - -409 -00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:36,720 -It's phenomenal. E-cash fixes 402. It absolutely does. In the header of your request, you can put some - -410 -00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:41,360 -e-cash and with that, the request is paid. You don't even have to go back and forth and do like - -411 -00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,920 -10 round trips. It's just like, here's five bucks. Give me the Apple, you know, it's like whatever. - -412 -00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:53,360 -And, and, and so I think we have the opportunity now to do what you just mentioned, actually think - -413 -00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,160 -deeply about the infrastructure we want to build, come up with something that anyone can run. So again, - -414 -00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,760 -like you want to build infrastructure. You don't want to run everything yourself. Then you're just like, - -415 -00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,040 -then you're like Apple or Google or what have you, you know, like that doesn't make any sense. - -416 -00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:12,720 -And, and it doesn't have to be all altruistic and all like, you know, like Richard Stallman type - -417 -00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:20,320 -people that don't believe in money. You can actually build services that scale, that are useful, and you - -418 -00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:25,040 -can make money if you run your service well. And I think that's how things should be. I think we - -419 -00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,880 -touched on it the last time as well. It's like, that's how restaurants are run. It's like, it's no - -420 -00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,120 -secret what's happening there. They provide a service, they do it well. They sell something that's - -421 -00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,960 -actually scarce. And if you do your job well, you can make money on a restaurant and you can do it - -422 -00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,800 -for a long time. And that's why you can't have multi-generational restaurants and inns and other - -423 -00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,200 -things that are actually fantastic businesses. And you can have fun while you're doing it. - -424 -00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,360 -And you don't have to take over the world and you don't have to, you know, compete with McDonald's - -425 -00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,800 -and capture the whole food market of the world. And like, it's like, all these ideas are, I don't know. - -426 -00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,960 -They don't run a compliance department. Restaurants don't have a compliance department, which is - -427 -00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:05,840 -the goal. Yeah. But I feel like in the, in the, in the web 2.0 era, at least, and we're still in this - -428 -00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,080 -era, I think at the, at the end of it, but, but it's still, it's always, the question is always, - -429 -00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,680 -how can you take over the world? How can you take on Google? How can you, you know, replace Facebook? - -430 -00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,680 -Yeah. Like you launch a video thing. How do you kill YouTube? Are you the YouTube killer? - -431 -00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:26,240 -You know, it's like all of that's bullshit. It's like, you don't have to, if you're, if I'm starting a - -432 -00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:29,920 -lemonade stand, I'm not going to be the Coca-Cola killer. You know what I mean? - -433 -00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,880 -It's like the, uh, like the, the concept of hyper Bitcoinization, you know, it's like, oh, - -434 -00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:40,160 -but when, when are you going to be able to sit in any coffee shop and, and pay, pay with Bitcoin? - -435 -00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,160 -And when is everything going to be basically, it doesn't have to, it doesn't have to. - -436 -00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:49,440 -It's true in my life. It's true in your life. It's true in my life. We don't need all the other - -437 -00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:54,480 -people to agree with us. My life is very much hyper Bitcoin-wise. It has been for a while. - -438 -00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:59,440 -So I feel like the whole discussion is moot. But, but I think, I think it, it stems from the same - -439 -00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:05,920 -problem of an all or nothing approach where when are, when is Nostra going to replace Facebook? - -440 -00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:10,960 -It doesn't have to. No, no, no, not at all. And in some sense it also shouldn't. It should, it should, - -441 -00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:23,440 -it's, yeah, I'm surprised still that I feel there's a lot of overlap between other communities - -442 -00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:30,080 -that have identified the problem. I think, I think they, they have identified the issue, - -443 -00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,760 -um, but they haven't necessarily landed on the right solution. Oh, a hundred percent. - -444 -00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,760 -Um, all the Mastodon people is a great example. They, they know the problem. Well, - -445 -00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,360 -the, the, the, the solution sucks. Sorry, Mastodon people. I mean, most of, - -446 -00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,040 -a lot of the Mastodon people went to Nostra now and so on, but, but even broader than that, - -447 -00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,840 -I think a lot of the, the, the self hosting people, they have identified the problem really well, - -448 -00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:57,360 -but I still think most of the solutions are kind of very limited in some sense. It's like you, you then, - -449 -00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,920 -okay. So, so either you use, I don't know, like Google drive or whatever, - -450 -00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:08,080 -or whatever centralized service, or you run absolutely everything yourself in your own server - -451 -00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,720 -rack in your kitchen. And if one time you're in, you're in a place where the power goes out and - -452 -00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:17,520 -your whole stuff is down for like a month or whatever, you know, like that's, you know what - -453 -00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:23,600 -I mean? I think we can do better than that. I really think we can. And again, Blossom is a great - -454 -00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:29,760 -example for that, where it's like, you, or, that's way better. That's way better. It's - -455 -00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:36,800 -better than a Bitcoin podcast, but the, the Nostra has the right, right architecture. It's like, I, - -456 -00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:43,040 -I want to host my own thing and it's kind of a fail safe if everything else goes down or whatever, - -457 -00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:50,000 -but I don't want to be personally responsible for all the infrastructure all the time. I want to pay - -458 -00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,960 -other people to do it for me. And I don't want those people to know what I'm doing. I don't - -459 -00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,600 -want those people to be able to shut me off in a meaningful way or control me in a meaningful way - -460 -00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,560 -and those kinds of things. And I think that's the right, those, those are the right parameters. - -461 -00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:09,440 -Like it's none of your business. What, what, what I do with, I don't know, like, you know, - -462 -00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,560 -what kind of lightning payment your node routes, for example, it's none of your business. - -463 -00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,480 -If you pass on an encrypted message that I send, it's none of your business what's in there. - -464 -00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,560 -It's like, I mean, that's what, how the postal office used to operate. At least I'm not sure - -465 -00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:27,040 -what they do now, but it's probably illegal in like six different ways. Yeah. - -466 -00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:34,880 -I don't know. I feel like an old man ranting, but I, no, but, but one of the things that I've seen - -467 -00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:43,280 -is, um, you know, the, the local first movement, uh, where it's like the idea is that applications should - -468 -00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:50,080 -be, um, should be performant, it should be expected to work offline. Yeah. It should, - -469 -00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:55,600 -they, they can, they can still use the internet, of course. Yeah. Um, but, but the application, - -470 -00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,440 -the state of the application should be on the application itself. And instead of, oh, you are - -471 -00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:06,960 -not connected to the internet. So you cannot edit your document, you know, nothing, your OS doesn't - -472 -00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:13,680 -boot because your internet is down. Um, and I, I, I listened to, to a bunch of, uh, podcasts from - -473 -00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,080 -the local first community, which is, I didn't even realize there is a local first community. - -474 -00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,440 -Oh, there is, they have, they, they have a conference. Oh, really? - -475 -00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:31,440 -For real. At home, by themselves. Disconnected from the internet. It's just three guys screaming - -476 -00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:37,280 -into the screen. You discuss all the things local first. Maybe you meet at the late point. Um, - -477 -00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:43,280 -but, but it's very interesting because they, they arrive to many of the same problems. But as you say, - -478 -00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:50,080 -they identify the right problem and they arrive to a completely wrong solution. One of them, um, - -479 -00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:56,480 -is working on identity. How do you solve identity? Local first. Not, not just local first, - -480 -00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:03,920 -but within the, the realm of you own your data because your data is stored locally and you can - -481 -00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,160 -always access it and no one can take it from you because it's literally sitting on your hard drive. - -482 -00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:17,600 -Um, how can you go around the different applications and do the login with Google or login with Facebook - -483 -00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:25,680 -and using your local identity. So using your local identity and it, it is the right, uh, - -484 -00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,200 -is it is the right, uh, problem to, it's the right question. It's the right question. - -485 -00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:38,320 -A hundred percent. The solution is, well, posky. Okay. Let's just use, let's just have, - -486 -00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,280 -so they arrive at the solution of, well, we need public private key cryptography, - -487 -00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:51,040 -so we'll go in this direction. Perfect. Awesome. Yes. But if posky is what's giving your, your identity, - -488 -00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:56,880 -your, your public key. Yeah. First, you cannot actually access the private key. Yeah. Uh, - -489 -00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:03,440 -you cannot take your, your private key, um, with you to a different, uh, to a different system. It's, - -490 -00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,920 -it's Apple, you know, so it's constrained to the Apple ecosystem or to the Google ecosystem or to - -491 -00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:14,560 -whatever. So you are still downstream from the Google. Yes. It's beautiful. You just put your touch, - -492 -00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,640 -your, your, your, your finger, it scans your touch ID and it's just, boom, it just works. - -493 -00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:26,000 -But what's the trade off? Like the trade off to me is unacceptable. Yeah. Um, where, where Apple can - -494 -00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:32,960 -just de-platform you from your local first software. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's all the right. - -495 -00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:40,960 -It's all the right, uh, questions, all the wrong answers. And, and I keep thinking these people, - -496 -00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:47,440 -they, they, they, they have a very, uh, like the, the local first community, as most communities, - -497 -00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,440 -they hate Bitcoin. Oh, everyone hates Bitcoin. That's fine. That's just, that's the default. - -498 -00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:57,680 -Yeah. Yeah. Oh man, it's so inefficient. Oh sure. Yeah. But, but, but, but give it, uh, within the, - -499 -00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:07,200 -um, the, it's so inefficient. Look how trivial the problem looks from the outside that the HTTP spec - -500 -00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:13,040 -people thought, oh, let's just put like a 402 error. We'll figure it out next week. We'll figure out - -501 -00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:19,840 -the payments next week. Yeah. It's, it's such a, it's, it looks like such a simple problem. Yeah. - -502 -00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,920 -And it's so hard. Yeah. It's so hard. It is a simple problem. It is a very simple problem. - -503 -00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,160 -But simple problems don't always have simple solutions. That's the issue. Yeah. It requires - -504 -00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:35,120 -building like this mining site and this whole infrastructure in the world that has a, a very - -505 -00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:42,160 -significant, uh, cost. Yeah. But it is the only way. It's the only way. And from the outside, - -506 -00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:47,280 -it might look like, oh, why don't you just use Pasky? It's an API call. It's just there. Yeah. - -507 -00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:53,280 -Why are you building all these weird apps and all this stuff? Like just use Pasky. - -508 -00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:58,160 -It's so simple. But I really liked the local first idea. I had no idea that. Oh, it's phenomenal. - -509 -00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:03,520 -Oh, no, no. It's great. But they also arrive at the same problems of, okay. And how do you sync the - -510 -00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:07,840 -data? Okay. But what if, what if you are on device A? What if you have like three different devices? - -511 -00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,400 -Yeah. Okay. Well, let's put a server. Oh, but what if the server goes down? It's an actually a really - -512 -00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:17,200 -hard problem. It is a hard problem. Yeah. And it's impossible to solve without conflicts. - -513 -00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:22,720 -Everyone who ever worked with Git knows this. It's like, it's, it's, you know, if you actually, - -514 -00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,600 -let's say you have three or four devices and you travel around and you forgot to switch your phone, - -515 -00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:32,400 -like back, like deactivate the flight mode again, and then you sit down on your computer, - -516 -00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:37,760 -I run into this problem all the time because I actually use systems like this and in my note - -517 -00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,680 -taking apps and so on. And I will have conflicts that I need to resolve. Oh, of course. - -518 -00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,280 -Because I updated it on the other machine and I updated another thing on the other machine. Both - -519 -00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,440 -of them were offline. What's the state? And then what's the state? There is no global state. - -520 -00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:54,480 -There is like, that can't be. Not even within your own. Not even within me. Like it doesn't work. - -521 -00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:02,160 -But, but that's, I think that's the right way. Like, um, Rebel tried to came up with a list of criteria - -522 -00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:07,360 -for like what makes a social network protocol open and so on. I think we need something like that for - -523 -00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:13,040 -Nostra stuff. And it's like, if that's one criteria, it has to work in flight mode. Yeah. - -524 -00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:18,720 -If it works, if it doesn't work in flight mode, if it doesn't work, if, if, if it does, I have a relay - -525 -00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:24,080 -on my phone and I should be able to switch it to flight mode and everything just kind of still works. - -526 -00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:29,200 -And I say, just kinda, you know, like not absolutely everything can work, but still it has to, - -527 -00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,240 -a lot can work, a lot can work way more than you would think. Yeah. - -528 -00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:37,120 -A lot can work. And I think it's the right approach. I think it's, it's, it's a fantastic. - -529 -00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:41,200 -I really, I love the local first thing. So see, I learned something, man, that's fantastic. - -530 -00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,680 -It's already working. See, see what can happen in like a, in a conversation, in a dialogue. - -531 -00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:51,120 -You usually learn things and you figure stuff out along the way. So that's the idea. No, - -532 -00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:59,280 -but, but I, I, again, it's the local first, because I, I, in my head, I already tried to, - -533 -00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,680 -to kind of make this list. And I think, uh, uh, HODLBOT gave it a try as well, right? - -534 -00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,840 -Like doing a list of what makes a Nostarab and Nostarab and Nostarab. What is a Nostarab anyway? - -535 -00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:15,120 -Those kinds of things. And, and, and I, I mean, I think we obviously still suck at all those things, - -536 -00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:20,080 -but I hope that in a year from now we'll have something where we can actually take a quick - -537 -00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:25,680 -look at something and immediately go, yeah, that's, that's wrong. That's like, you know, - -538 -00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:30,800 -that's within this category of error. Yeah. And I think that would be super useful, - -539 -00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:37,440 -because again, I think like everyone who worked on Nostar so far, we figured out a couple of things. - -540 -00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:42,720 -And I think we have to get a little bit better at passing that on and explaining it to - -541 -00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,360 -just regular developers. I don't, I don't even care about the users that much, so to speak, - -542 -00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:52,800 -because it's like the users, this stuff will be figured out. The developer side is, I think, - -543 -00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:58,720 -harder to figure out because I don't want, I'm still worried that if we, - -544 -00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:06,240 -there's still a chance that Nostar kind of goes bad in some sense, I think. - -545 -00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:10,960 -Yeah, I, I, I tend to agree. I think we're in better footing than we were. - -546 -00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,040 -Oh yeah. You were insanely stressed out a year ago. - -547 -00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,040 -Oh, yes. I very much was. - -548 -00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,200 -I agree. I agree. I think, I think we are. - -549 -00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:18,000 -Should we turn around? - -550 -00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:23,840 -Yeah, let's do, but we can also, we can, we can, we can go through the pain once more. - -551 -00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:29,280 -It's not an issue, but let's do, let's do one ring around the Rosie and then let's see where we're at. - -552 -00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,080 -That might, that it's probably very confusing for people as well. - -553 -00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,600 -Like we're sometimes talking about the Nostar things. We're mostly talking about Bitcoin, - -554 -00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,280 -but then we're also talking about how to best keep walking without running into things, - -555 -00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:47,120 -running into too many other people. But yeah, that's kind of my hope for the whole - -556 -00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,880 -project and having these conversations and so on, that hopefully we land on some, on some things - -557 -00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:59,840 -where we not only, not only figure out these criteria, but also refine the message. - -558 -00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,640 -Why, why is it important? Like, why should you care about it? Why do you want to build on it, - -559 -00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:10,880 -for example? And, and I, I think it has to be, it has to be wound up with the money and the money - -560 -00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:16,800 -making. Oh yeah. It's like, it's, it's because that's, it's such a novel thing as well that you - -561 -00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:23,040 -can, you can, you will receive sets. Like if you do your thing right, you will receive sets from the - -562 -00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:27,520 -get go. It's not going to be a lot, but still having the possibility of having money flowing in - -563 -00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:36,160 -and flowing through the system from second one, basically. I mean, we pushed out this in a, in a, - -564 -00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,520 -like the first conversation that we had and also even the teaser, the teaser made money. - -565 -00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:44,560 -It was like a hundred sets or something. I don't know, but, but it's not nothing, - -566 -00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:50,320 -you know, and we, we, we put very little effort into marketing or CK. Well, we didn't market like - -567 -00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:56,720 -at all. CK would say that's more than generational wealth. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. If you disagree, - -568 -00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:04,320 -you're not bullish enough. But yeah, I don't know. I, I hope, I hope that we can figure this out - -569 -00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,680 -because I really think Nostra is one of the... I'm absolutely sure that, that we will. - -570 -00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:13,120 -I'm surprised that not more developers are flocking to it because I think, I think, I think it's one - -571 -00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,680 -of the most exciting things that's happening right now in the kind of internet development space. Yeah. - -572 -00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,520 -And most people are completely unaware. I think it's mostly because our own fault, - -573 -00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:30,720 -because everyone hates Bitcoiners and it's just... That is very likely the case. Also, I mean, - -574 -00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:39,840 -one of the things that keeps coming up is people join Nostra and they get 20 different people say, - -575 -00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,560 -I tried to stop you. I couldn't stop you. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Download this thing. And it's like, - -576 -00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:50,000 -okay, I was here for like a minute and now I have... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have like six hours worth, - -577 -00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:55,280 -you know, to watch this video and you need to sell these things. No, that's true. Yeah. But you - -578 -00:55:55,280 --> 00:56:00,560 -know, Nostra fixes this, so... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They won't be able to really spend it except for, - -579 -00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:06,880 -you know, pass it on. You, you, you can, you can pay late lightning invoices. So you could go to the - -580 -00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:11,440 -mythical coffee shop and buy a coffee. Oh yeah, yeah. But again, regular users. - -581 -00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:25,680 -But that's the thing. So the reason I started working on the Nostra stuff is that I was looking - -582 -00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:35,680 -very hard at how Substack works, how they do onboarding. And within the onboarding flow of an - -583 -00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:41,200 -author trying to write something on Substack and make some money, the moment you say that you - -584 -00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:49,920 -want to get paid, they take you in a very beautiful design, they take you to this KYC process with - -585 -00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:55,760 -Stripe. So they hand you off to Stripe and Stripe is doing the KYC for them and then you have to link - -586 -00:56:55,760 --> 00:57:04,400 -it and whatnot. The UX is as good as it can get when you bake in the assumption of KYC-ing the person. - -587 -00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:10,160 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once you have to scan your face and take a picture of your proof of address and - -588 -00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:16,400 -your passport and whatnot. Yeah. You can't have like a really good UX because it fucking sucks. - -589 -00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:27,120 -Yeah. And it's still very, very raw. It's still very early stages. But the fact that you can go - -590 -00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:34,640 -and have a Substack equivalent or have a whatever equivalent and not have to go through that, you - -591 -00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:41,840 -can go to Shopster and sell shit without having to KYC you with with Stripe. That is a massive deal. - -592 -00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,880 -Oh, absolutely. That is a massive, massive deal. Absolutely. - -593 -00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:55,520 -And I think developers might not, yeah, developers might not understand the identity piece and why - -594 -00:57:55,520 --> 00:58:04,080 -like all these parts are. So why is all this shit required? Why do we have to find a nonce on Bitcoin? - -595 -00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:10,320 -Yeah. Why is the mining? They won't have to understand those things. - -596 -00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:14,800 -Yeah, yeah. No, no, not at all. But the sales pitch of you can have your users - -597 -00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:19,360 -selling their shit immediately. Yeah. That is a very easy narrative to understand. - -598 -00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:23,440 -Yeah. No. And that's what I also mean. Like in the end, like give them enough improvements - -599 -00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:27,600 -and all those kinds of things. It will be better and easier. Just like Bitcoin is better and easier - -600 -00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:33,600 -than the legacy fiat banking system. Like try to do an international wire with any bank. It's like, - -601 -00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:39,360 -it's hell. It's you're in the fifth circle of hell. Like it doesn't matter how you cut it. - -602 -00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:44,960 -And also when it comes to the bigger platforms, um, if you do account creation, for example, - -603 -00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:49,840 -that's already so cumbersome. And not sure. It's a click. Yeah. It's one click and you have an - -604 -00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:54,560 -account. And, and if we do our verification, nothing, nothing. And you don't have to, - -605 -00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,320 -because on many things that I use, like, like they want to know everything about you. Like, - -606 -00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:03,280 -and I, I'm always going like, why, why do you need to know this? Why do you need my first name and my - -607 -00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:08,080 -middle name and my last name and my birth date and my, you know, like my blood type and my, - -608 -00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,760 -my, my country and my location and like all those kinds of things. And why, why, why? I mean, - -609 -00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:16,720 -I know why, but it's still, it's still very much stupid. It's like, it's, it's, it, - -610 -00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:21,680 -I just wanted to try out like a to do note making app. It's like, please don't, don't, - -611 -00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:29,520 -just, just let me try the thing. Just like, let me in. I promise. I'm not a terrorist. I promise. - -612 -00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:36,640 -I don't know. And so, so I was, I was getting, uh, a few months ago, I was getting KYC'd by this, - -613 -00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:42,560 -uh, company. They, and one of the questions that, that they asked me, I bailed. One of the questions - -614 -00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:47,360 -that they asked me is, how much money do you have? It's like, fuck you. I don't know. - -615 -00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:55,120 -How is that? Imagine, imagine if you download Sparrow and Craig says, okay, how much money do you have? - -616 -00:59:55,120 --> 01:00:00,080 -I need to report it. I need to know. Otherwise you can't use my software. No, - -617 -01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,600 -I think that's what, that's where we can really shine. I think that's where, where Nostar can - -618 -01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,120 -really shine. Like literally everything can be one click. And I think this, it's still, - -619 -01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:13,360 -it's still very much underutilized because, and I, and I think because we are so wedded to the old way - -620 -01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:17,440 -of doing things, like every single Nostar client should have a one click onboarding thing where you're - -621 -01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:22,560 -just like create a new account to try it out. It's like, why not? It's like, the NSACs are free. - -622 -01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:28,880 -There's, there's like, there's infinity of them. Just let me, like, I don't even want to have to do - -623 -01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:33,920 -it myself. Just like, bam, do it. I don't care about losing it. Like, who cares? You know, - -624 -01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,200 -all those kinds of things. There's nothing in there. Why wouldn't I? Yeah, exactly. - -625 -01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:43,520 -To me, when, when I installed a Bitcoin, a Bitcoin wallet and it sells you, it forces you to verify - -626 -01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:48,960 -the token. There's literally zero money because I haven't been able to use the fucking app. Like, - -627 -01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:53,280 -why are you making, but again, trade-offs, trade-offs. It's like, it's so many people lost Bitcoin. - -628 -01:00:53,280 --> 01:01:00,560 -So, so, okay, fine. But still, I, I, I, that's one of the things I, we, we, we haven't tried all these - -629 -01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,720 -things out enough. Like most people that are currently on Nostar, what, what, what would, - -630 -01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:11,360 -what would be your guess? How, how many percent of people using Nostar know that you can paste - -631 -01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:17,280 -an NPUP into pretty much any client and see the Nostar verse through the eyes of, I don't know, - -632 -01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:22,400 -you know, like Pablo or Jack or what have you. How many people know that you can do that? - -633 -01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:31,760 -I, I, I would think it's gotta be half. Wow. Oh man, you're, you're, you're, I would have said less - -634 -01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:37,680 -than one percent. Such a bubble, right? Less than one percent. Really? Yeah. No one knows this. Most - -635 -01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:42,880 -clients don't advertise this or show this or whatever. Show me a couple of profiles. When I - -636 -01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:47,040 -open the thing and I want to click on it and I want to see it, I want to use your NPUP to log in - -637 -01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:54,080 -or whatever, to just check it out. We, we, we, we don't do those kinds of things and it's all possible - -638 -01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:58,560 -because it was all impossible in the old system. Right. Yeah. It was completely impossible to do stuff - -639 -01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:02,800 -like that in the old system. And we're still so wedded to the old way of thinking at the old - -640 -01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:08,800 -system. And, and also in the old system, the old system has your private, your private data - -641 -01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:15,600 -unencrypted. Sure. So in the old system, log in with someone else's account. Would be very weird. - -642 -01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:21,040 -It, it, not only could it be very weird from, from an, from a developer perspective, you gotta be - -643 -01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:27,040 -fucking sure you're not leaking the DMs because you, you can. Yeah. You can. Yeah. In Nostar, - -644 -01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:31,040 -you don't have the private key, so you cannot decrypt. You can only see the public data. - -645 -01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:34,160 -The stuff that's public anyway, but it looks and feels as if you were doing the thing, - -646 -01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:38,080 -you can't interact, but you can, it feels like I'm looking over your shoulder basically. That's - -647 -01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:44,640 -what I can do in some sense. It's, but, but I, I don't know. I feel like we're in a new paradigm - -648 -01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:51,120 -and we haven't even done the new paradigm things yet enough. And I think it is because people don't - -649 -01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,800 -really understand it well enough yet in some sense. I don't know. It should be the default. Having, - -650 -01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,480 -having an NSEC for just like a day or something, it should be the default. - -651 -01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:02,720 -Yeah. Yeah. I think there's very few clients that, that implemented this. I think Amethyst - -652 -01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:08,400 -did as like replying as a NIM basically where you just, you spin up a new NPUB just for this reply. - -653 -01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:13,280 -That's fantastic. Yeah. Stuff like that is fantastic. Like we should, we should have way more of, of, - -654 -01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:19,520 -of these kinds of, you know, experimentations and, and really leaning into the new paradigm. But, but then, - -655 -01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:24,960 -first of all, we'll have to understand what is the new paradigm basically. And I think again, - -656 -01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:32,000 -like local first is part of this, like it's a new paradigm that your thing works, whether you're - -657 -01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:37,680 -online or not. It's a completely new paradigm. That's unheard of in like a client server architecture, - -658 -01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:49,040 -like old way of thinking. Yeah. In, in the, uh, based on the, the, the way the local first community - -659 -01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:55,440 -people speak, I, I wrote the documentation, uh, a local first documentation for NDK. And it's a guide - -660 -01:03:55,440 --> 01:04:01,680 -on building local first apps within, within NDK because I, to me, like the idea of I click the, - -661 -01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:07,040 -whatever, a reaction or make a comment or something. And it just works. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't, - -662 -01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:11,680 -because the data is already signed. Yes. So I know it works. The device goes online and it will. - -663 -01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:16,160 -Yeah. The device goes online. So whether it published to the relays or it didn't yet, - -664 -01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:22,480 -it's kind of secondary. Yeah. So it should be reflected in the app immediately. Yeah, absolutely. - -665 -01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:27,120 -Absolutely. No, it's the right way of, of thinking about it. So let's end with an echo and - -666 -01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:31,440 -be done with it. And someone yelling in the tunnel. We'll see. We'll, we'll, - -667 -01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:39,600 -well, oh, that was just a, just a sound chest, sound, sound check by some random guy. - -668 -01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,440 -Yeah. I feel like my brain is fried again anyway, so I'll have to, - -669 -01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:52,480 -oh, I don't, I don't have anything insightful to say anymore. Not, not that I said a lot of useful - -670 -01:04:52,480 --> 01:05:00,960 -things, but no, I really liked that. The, the, the combination of there being no global, - -671 -01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:07,200 -and building stuff in a way that it works in an offline mode, that it works local first, - -672 -01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,240 -that's already, you know, like, everyone should - -673 -01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:18,640 -know that this is how things work in another world, basically. And I feel like we're not there yet. - -674 -01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:23,440 -No, no, no, not at all. Most people still try to make a global view work, - -675 -01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:28,720 -and most people have never tested their own app in flight mode, for example. - -676 -01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:34,640 -Yeah. And the, and the, the idea of building this global view is one, - -677 -01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:43,680 -like I've seen many people, we, we've seen many, many, many people attempt that. And it's, it's such an, - -678 -01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:51,360 -an endless pursuit. Um, and the complete, the complexity just explodes. And it will never stop - -679 -01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:57,040 -exploding either. No, the, the, the deeper you dig into the problem, the worse it gets. - -680 -01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:02,000 -It's, I, that's, that's what I have to feeling with a lot of the, still in the, - -681 -01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,360 -the shit kind of world and the proof of stake people and so, and so on. They don't even know - -682 -01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:10,400 -how hard it is, how hard the problem is that they're trying to solve. They don't know. Yeah. - -683 -01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,760 -They try and they try and they try and all their attempts are misguided. And they don't even - -684 -01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:18,880 -understand how they don't even understand the impossibility of the problem that they're trying - -685 -01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:24,080 -to solve. And I've seen this so many times now where new people come in and they want to build - -686 -01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:29,760 -something and they want to make a global view happen. And, and I think that's something where - -687 -01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:34,960 -we just have to get better at explaining to people that you have to be okay with there being no global. - -688 -01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:39,840 -So let's, let's try to identify with more or narrow down the problem. Let's stop walking - -689 -01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:47,360 -before I completely lose my breath. Because we've seen many people just personally - -690 -01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:54,000 -working on this type of assurances and this type of views and not real realizing, not feeling, - -691 -01:06:54,000 --> 01:07:02,400 -even though we've yelled so many times, literally yelled so many times. What, what do you think is the, - -692 -01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:11,280 -um, is the holdup? What, why, why are these people that are smart and capable? Why do you think - -693 -01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:18,720 -we are not getting through? I think it's incredibly hard and also painful to deprogram yourself. - -694 -01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:23,680 -And it's like, you, you, you grew up with this stuff and it always worked like this. And you always - -695 -01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,960 -had a server that told you, told you the truth and nothing but the truth and the whole truth. - -696 -01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:31,840 -And if you don't, if you don't have that, then you, it's very hard to accept it, that you don't have - -697 -01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:38,160 -that. I think, I think that's the, that's the main issue to pick another example, um, that we ran into - -698 -01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:45,360 -often. It's like the main way of, of making money, um, online basically, or building out such apps and - -699 -01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:54,560 -systems and so on is, um, to, um, either capture your users, which, or introduce yourself as a - -700 -01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:58,560 -middleman and capturing your users is just like, you are the middleman, you are the thing and so on. - -701 -01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:04,720 -And so people default to those kinds of things. Most developers that are new to NOS and, and, and - -702 -01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:10,560 -want to do something and, and potentially eventually also make money. They, they really try hard to capture - -703 -01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:14,720 -their users in some way. And because that's what they learned. That's what they know. That's what - -704 -01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:20,880 -everyone taught them up to now. And in, in sense of adding yourself as a middleman, it's the same - -705 -01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:25,920 -thing. Like they try to, to insert themselves. Like it only works if you use this client. It only works - -706 -01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:30,400 -if you do it like this. And then they take like a, whatever percentage cut and so on. And that's, that, - -707 -01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:34,560 -I think that's the old business model. I think there is a, there is another way of doing things - -708 -01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:39,920 -and a more honest way of doing things and things, a more long lived way of doing things. I think - -709 -01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:44,880 -RoboSats is, it's the first innovation that I saw in, in that sort of monetizing open source - -710 -01:08:45,440 --> 01:08:54,880 -software in a, I think very honest way. It's where they, the coordinators can decide to give back - -711 -01:08:54,880 --> 01:09:02,880 -parts of their profit to RoboSats open source development. And they advertise that and they advertise - -712 -01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:07,200 -that and it's part of their, um, like they have a reputation, they have various ratings and all - -713 -01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:10,400 -those kinds of things. They, they advertise the liquidity and all those kinds of things. - -714 -01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:14,960 -And, and that's part of that. And so I personally, I'm not going to choose a coordinator that has this - -715 -01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:22,000 -put to 0%. I want to support the whole system and the whole thing. And so, and I think most people - -716 -01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:28,480 -are not assholes actually. I think most people are a meaningful percentage of people will choose - -717 -01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:32,640 -to select someone that actually gives back to the whole system and gives back - -718 -01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:37,200 -to open source development makes the whole thing work and so on. And, and, and that's a, - -719 -01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:42,560 -that's a very new idea, I think. And you can do it in a way like you, you can do it in a way - -720 -01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:45,920 -so that it's automated and transparent and verifiable and all those kinds of things. - -721 -01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:52,720 -And we can do that now. We can, and I feel the whole, this whole space is very unexplored yet. - -722 -01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:56,800 -Most people haven't tried something like that. Most people are still stuck in the old paradigm, - -723 -01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:00,640 -which is like, I'm going to be the middleman and I'm going to facilitate the things I'm going to take - -724 -01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:04,400 -like a 4% cut or whatever. I don't know. I don't have a better answer. - -725 -01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:10,960 -To me, the, the, the question about the, the money and the becoming the, the central point - -726 -01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:17,280 -so you can take your cut, that, that is a much clearer reason why you want to be there. - -727 -01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,080 -Because there is a fulfilled motive. There is an incentive to be there - -728 -01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:24,960 -because you want to take your, you want to take the money. The, the global view people - -729 -01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,480 -that I have a harder. How should we call them? Globalists? - -730 -01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:38,080 -The Websters. Oh, you're a globalist. I understand. I don't need to talk to you anymore. - -731 -01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:40,640 -If you're a globalist, I'm not interested. - -732 -01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:49,280 -Yeah. The global, the globalist perspective, I, I have a harder time understanding because - -733 -01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:57,840 -you're not going to make money because you are trying to solve the data assurance of all the data - -734 -01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:05,040 -I'm not sure or naming. I mean, it, it, in their defense, it kind of stuff kind of feels like - -735 -01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:10,400 -there is a global truth, right? Like if you, your everyday experience and all those kinds of things - -736 -01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:15,600 -tells you that there is a global shared view of things. And there is a global truth. And there's - -737 -01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:21,360 -like one truth, like how many beans are in the jar? Like there is a, there's a definitive answer. - -738 -01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:28,000 -Hmm. And I don't know what happened in your house this morning. I cannot have a view of what happened - -739 -01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:34,400 -in Tokyo an hour ago. Yeah, sure. But I, I think people have a hard time wrapping their head around - -740 -01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:41,440 -the fact that, um, in, in a global system, which by default is a distributed system, - -741 -01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:45,520 -like YouTube is a distributed system. Let's stick with YouTube because everyone kind of knows YouTube, - -742 -01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:49,920 -knows how it works, knows how the interface looks like. And so the like count is a complete lie. - -743 -01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:55,040 -And it has to be, and you can also tell if, if, if a YouTube video ever goes viral, - -744 -01:11:55,040 --> 01:12:00,960 -the like count will stop at like 137 or something, because that's when they start to actually start - -745 -01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:06,000 -counting the likes and they have to reconcile between the different geographically distributed - -746 -01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:11,920 -servers that they have. And so there is not one server that has the number. It can't have it because - -747 -01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:16,080 -the YouTube video in Germany is going to be served from a German server. If someone else in Japan looks - -748 -01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:19,680 -at it, it's going to be a Japanese server and so on, and they have to reconcile. And while they are - -749 -01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:24,480 -reconciling and that's just speed of light physics stuff, like a million other people have seen the - -750 -01:12:24,480 --> 01:12:30,640 -video again. So, so, so it's not off by a little, it's like if a video really goes viral, it's, it's - -751 -01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:35,200 -not off by a little, it's not off by two or three views. It's off by thousands and millions of views. - -752 -01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:39,520 -It's like, it's insane how, how hard this problem is also, you know, like what counts for a view and - -753 -01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:44,880 -all those kinds of things. And so, so, so I, I think people, most of the globalists just haven't - -754 -01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:51,760 -talked about or thought about, I love it already. They, they haven't thought about, uh, the problem - -755 -01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:56,320 -at the end deeply enough, I think they never thought about it. It's just like, oh, that's the like count. - -756 -01:12:56,320 --> 01:13:00,080 -And again, the server says that's the like count. So that's like, they never considered - -757 -01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:04,800 -that this could be a lie. It has to be a lie. It has to be a lie. Basically, you know, - -758 -01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:11,040 -like what's the global state of the internet? And everyone knows like what Google has indexed is - -759 -01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:15,200 -not the global state of the internet. It's not, it's, it's a very small sliver of the internet. - -760 -01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:20,240 -You cannot have a global state of the internet. You can't, you literally can't. It's physically - -761 -01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:26,480 -impossible. And so, so I don't know. I think it comes from a place of - -762 -01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,840 -both ignorance and also trying to have a nice and easy solution. - -763 -01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:39,600 -because actually not having a global state, like, like real, the realization that global is a lie. - -764 -01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:45,360 -It's a hard realization. It makes, it's harder to build stuff that way. It's like you, you, - -765 -01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:51,760 -you have to just be okay with it. And, and I think it's hard to confront that and build stuff accordingly. - -766 -01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:58,800 -Yeah. I think it, it, it's hard to accept. It's a good, uh, it's a good explanation - -767 -01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:06,800 -because it forces you to just accept the discomfort of not having a perfect answer and that there can't be. - -768 -01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:16,320 -Yeah. Having a global would be very comforting and very simple and very easy. And that's it. - -769 -01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:20,480 -And that's the source of truth. And that's what I'm going to work with and so on. And so I think, I think, - -770 -01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:26,240 -yeah, I, I think that's it. I think most people would love to have it. And so they kind of - -771 -01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:30,800 -force themselves to think that it exists in some way. - -772 -01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:38,080 -Yeah. I don't know, but we'll, we'll get there. Well, I mean, it also, not everyone has to - -773 -01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:43,360 -understand this stuff. I think, uh, critical percentage of people has to understand the - -774 -01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:48,240 -things. And if we, if we have a couple of hundred devs that are really good, that deeply understand - -775 -01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:53,200 -this stuff, I'm happy. I don't need, you know, my mom to understand this stuff. It's like, it's fine. - -776 -01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:58,720 -Yeah. I think the, uh, the eternal September of Noster is going to be people coming in and building, - -777 -01:14:59,440 --> 01:15:04,720 -uh, an A, a rest API that gives you the, what building rest APIs to give you global feeds. - -778 -01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:10,480 -Yes. That's going to be our eternal September. Yeah. Let's prepare for it accordingly. - -779 -01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:15,680 -Any last words, anything else you want to touch on? I need to get out of the sun. - -780 -01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:21,440 -No, I'm good. All good. Yeah. All right. Then see you next week. See you next week. - -781 -01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:25,200 -Bye. - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/03 - Data Ownership Is a Lie - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/03 - Data Ownership Is a Lie - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index ba0efc9e..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/03 - Data Ownership Is a Lie - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,43 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "Data Ownership Is a Lie" (Episode 03) - -**Context:** A wide-ranging conversation that combines earlier threads—shipping imperfect work, refusing centralized "global" views, and designing rug-pull-proof systems—into a bigger picture of where Sovereign Engineering cohorts and Nostr are heading. - -## Core Values & Insights - -1. **Ship, Even If It's Ugly** - • Countless useful projects die on forgotten hard drives; push the repo, share the idea. - • Code aesthetics matter less than letting others build on your work. - -2. **Own Your Data, Avoid API Rug-Pulls** - • History shows Reddit, YouTube, Twitter can change terms or shut you off overnight. - • Nostr/Bitcoin architecture lets devs "build once" without fearing platform whims. - -3. **No Single Source of Truth** - • Global like-counts or username registries are illusions; latency & locality win. - • Design apps to tolerate partial views and eventual consistency. - -4. **Local-First Applications** - • Apps should function offline, signing events locally and syncing later. - • One-click, throw-away Nostr accounts (or Nim replies) exemplify this paradigm. - -5. **Transparent, Opt-In Monetization** - • Replace ad/VC models with value-for-value sats and service fees users willingly pay. - • Example: RoboSats coordinators share profits with open-source fund—no lock-in, no hidden cuts. - -6. **Building-Block Mentality** - • Treat NIPs (eCash, discovery, media) as Lego pieces; compose rather than capture. - • Encourage experiments like Blossom hosting or NDK's local-first helpers. - -7. **Distributed Cognition & Dialogue** - • Hard problems (reinventing the internet) can't be solved by one coder—dialogue and cohorts surface better trade-offs. - • Sovereign Engineering gatherings foster shared memes ("Nostr is testnet") and weekly demo pressure that bakes these lessons in. - -## Takeaways for Sovereign Engineering Cohorts - -• Push prototypes every week; half-finished > never-shared. -• Evaluate projects on fault-tolerance and self-sovereignty, not polish. -• Encourage local-first UX patterns and direct sats flows in all cohort apps. - ---- - -Embrace messy, local, user-owned systems. Ship early, iterate publicly, earn sats without gatekeepers—this is Sovereign Engineering's path forward. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/03 - Data Ownership Is a Lie.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/03 - Data Ownership Is a Lie.srt deleted file mode 100644 index 6f4862a6..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/03 - Data Ownership Is a Lie.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,14944 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,000 -Yes, no, maybe. - -2 -00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:06,000 -You clipped the beard. - -3 -00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,000 -Oh my god. - -4 -00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,000 -That's great. - -5 -00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,000 -What a great way to start the day. - -6 -00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,000 -With pain. - -7 -00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,000 -With pain. - -8 -00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,000 -It's very stoic. - -9 -00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,000 -Yeah. - -10 -00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,000 -All right. - -11 -00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,000 -Wait, no, this is very annoying. - -12 -00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,000 -Me? - -13 -00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,000 -No, no, no. - -14 -00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,000 -You put it down and it works. - -15 -00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,000 -I don't know. - -16 -00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,000 -I'm sure if it works. - -17 -00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,000 -We'll see. - -18 -00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,000 -Last time you had it like that as well. - -19 -00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,000 -We have to be okay with it being shitty. - -20 -00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,000 -Yeah, like this. - -21 -00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,000 -I think that's good. - -22 -00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,000 -Who knows. - -23 -00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,000 -We'll learn. - -24 -00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,000 -We'll see. - -25 -00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,000 -So I told you I have a plan. - -26 -00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,000 -Yeah, a man with a plan. - -27 -00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,000 -I'm scared and excited at the same time. - -28 -00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:04,000 -So the meta theme seems to be to not tell people what to do, but to kind of. - -29 -00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,000 -Well, it's not for script either. - -30 -00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,000 -We're not telling people what to do. - -31 -00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,000 -No, that's what I mean. - -32 -00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,000 -We're not. - -33 -00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:18,000 -But putting a finger on the things that we think are misguided in some sense. - -34 -00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,000 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -35 -00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:28,000 -Like, again, like we saw a lot of stuff, worked with a lot of devs, had lots of these conversations off the record and so on. - -36 -00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:40,000 -And so the main thing what we discussed in the first one was people are like super afraid just to, I don't know, think out in the open, build out in the open, ship the things that they have and so on. - -37 -00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:48,000 -And that's that's something that that really grinds my gears because there's so much cool stuff that's just on some hard disk somewhere. - -38 -00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,000 -And people are kind of too embarrassed or too ashamed to push it out and so on. - -39 -00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:57,000 -And it's like I've seen this multiple times when someone built something really cool and it's just it's not on a repo somewhere. - -40 -00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,000 -No one knows that this exists. - -41 -00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,000 -And then the guy loses interest and and it would have been useful. - -42 -00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,000 -It would have been useful to me personally and so on. - -43 -00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,000 -And it's just not shipped. - -44 -00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,000 -It's not like just just kind of create repo, push it out. - -45 -00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,000 -That's that's all like no one cares that your code is ugly and things are not clean up. - -46 -00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,000 -Literally no one cares. - -47 -00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:21,000 -So, yeah, I mean, not to start within the first minute minute with the B word, but the B word. - -48 -00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,000 -But the Bitcoin first version could have been like that. - -49 -00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:26,000 -It could have been. - -50 -00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:27,000 -This sucks. - -51 -00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:28,000 -I'm not going to release this. - -52 -00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,000 -I'm going to be so ashamed if I release this. - -53 -00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,000 -Oh, yeah. - -54 -00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,000 -Oh, wow. - -55 -00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,000 -It's windy. - -56 -00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,000 -It's really windy. - -57 -00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,000 -Jesus. - -58 -00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,000 -That's got to be that's going to be interesting. - -59 -00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,000 -No, well, the tunnel will fix it. - -60 -00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,000 -The tunnel will fix the wind and then we'll see how it goes. - -61 -00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,000 -Okay. - -62 -00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:50,000 -I mean, now now we're going to know how it is if there's like really strong winds while we're walking. - -63 -00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,000 -Yeah. - -64 -00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,000 -I mean, as everyone knows now, this is just another Bitcoin podcast. - -65 -00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,000 -So I would encourage everyone to. - -66 -00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,000 -It's the Bitcoin Blossom podcast. - -67 -00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,000 -We are in a very unique niche. - -68 -00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:05,000 -It doesn't get more niche than that. - -69 -00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:11,000 -But yeah, look at the actually first released version of the Bitcoin code. - -70 -00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,000 -It's like insane. - -71 -00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,000 -It's insane. - -72 -00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,000 -It's like it's it's spaghetti code main dot CPP like a couple of hundred lines. - -73 -00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,000 -There's like a big poker game. - -74 -00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:21,000 -Exactly. - -75 -00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,000 -A big poker client in there and like all it's all over the place. - -76 -00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,000 -So, yeah. - -77 -00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:32,000 -And and and people defy Satoshi, you know, and he sent even earlier versions around before that, - -78 -00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,000 -you know, like in he did it right. - -79 -00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,000 -He's just like, hey, look, I built this ugly thing, send it to some people and then pushed it out. - -80 -00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,000 -So fantastic. - -81 -00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,000 -It's shit. - -82 -00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,000 -What do you think? - -83 -00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,000 -Exactly. - -84 -00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,000 -So, yeah. - -85 -00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:54,000 -And the second one was that there is no global, like one of the misconceptions that people have - -86 -00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,000 -and that we saw people run into. - -87 -00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,000 -They try to fix this problem. - -88 -00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,000 -They try to build a global state, which, of course, is what Satoshi managed. - -89 -00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,000 -But people, you know, we have to mention it as a Bitcoin podcast. - -90 -00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:12,000 -And so what I want to spring on you, what my plan is for today. - -91 -00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:17,000 -And this will lead to probably also like EVMs and Nutsubs and many other things. - -92 -00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,000 -But it's I think one of the main misconceptions that people still have both on the Bitcoin side, - -93 -00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,000 -but especially in the Nostra side is that you can own data. - -94 -00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,000 -Oh, yeah. - -95 -00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,000 -And I see it like at least once a week. - -96 -00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,000 -Someone is like it's and I just saw the book again with like read, write, own. - -97 -00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:34,000 -You know? - -98 -00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,000 -Yeah. - -99 -00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:41,000 -It's like the, you know, the new paradigm is that you own your data and you own your online identity and so on. - -100 -00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:49,000 -And I think one of the things that we had that we wrote down one day was like, you can't own public data. - -101 -00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:54,000 -I would even go as far as to say data ownership is a complete lie. - -102 -00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,000 -You can't own data. - -103 -00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,000 -So I don't know. - -104 -00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,000 -Can you can you own the number three? - -105 -00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,000 -Discuss. - -106 -00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:13,000 -Yeah, I think it's a confusion with the idea of controlling the data and owning the data. - -107 -00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,000 -Yeah. - -108 -00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,000 -What does it mean to own something? - -109 -00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,000 -Yeah. - -110 -00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,000 -In the first place. - -111 -00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,000 -Yeah. - -112 -00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,000 -I don't know. - -113 -00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,000 -What does it mean to own something? - -114 -00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,000 -Yeah. - -115 -00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,000 -I don't know. - -116 -00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,000 -What does it mean to own something in meat space? - -117 -00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,000 -Like, what does it mean if you own a chair? - -118 -00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,000 -I mean, within. - -119 -00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,000 -What's the, what's the phrase? - -120 -00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:32,000 -If you have something. - -121 -00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:33,000 -Possession. - -122 -00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:34,000 -Yeah. - -123 -00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,000 -That one. - -124 -00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,000 -Yeah. - -125 -00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:41,000 -But that means that you can, you can dictate what happens to it is I guess what it means. - -126 -00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:46,000 -I guess in that sense, I mean, at the very, at the very base. - -127 -00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:47,000 -You control it. - -128 -00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,000 -At the very base of things. - -129 -00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,000 -Um, it's always about the violence, right? - -130 -00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,000 -Like, what can you defend? - -131 -00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,000 -So, if I, if you. - -132 -00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,000 -That's a good, that's a good point. - -133 -00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,000 -That's a good frame. - -134 -00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:04,000 -If I have this chair, um, and you can, for whatever reason, take it away. - -135 -00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,000 -Who owns it? - -136 -00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:06,000 -Right? - -137 -00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:11,000 -Uh, that's why, where the state comes from, you know, like the idea of the state comes, - -138 -00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:18,000 -uh, into this paradigm of, um, we are going to externalize the violence. - -139 -00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,000 -So that someone will. - -140 -00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,000 -To resolve ownership disputes. - -141 -00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,000 -Yeah. - -142 -00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,000 -Exactly. - -143 -00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:30,000 -But for data, you don't like, I think data is a, is a very special because you can defend - -144 -00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:36,000 -it in a way that doesn't involve, um, violence because you can secure it with, via private - -145 -00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,000 -keys and then how you manage the private keys is, which are. - -146 -00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,000 -Then again, that's, can you own a private key? - -147 -00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,000 -I would argue, no, like I don't, I don't. - -148 -00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,000 -You can control it. - -149 -00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,000 -You, you can, you can have exclusive knowledge of a secret. - -150 -00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:50,000 -Yes. - -151 -00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,000 -And that simulates ownership. - -152 -00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,000 -Yes. - -153 -00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,000 -And that's the best we can do. - -154 -00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,000 -Yeah. - -155 -00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:00,000 -And I think the whole confusion around, you know, what it means to own data, what it means - -156 -00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,000 -to, I don't know, own your NASA profile or own whatever. - -157 -00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,000 -It stems from that that people, I think all that, I mean, we keep, we keep hitting the - -158 -00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,000 -same topics. - -159 -00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,000 -I kind of hate myself for bringing it up again, but the NFT people, that's what they are confused - -160 -00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,000 -about. - -161 -00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,000 -You can't actually own a JPEG. - -162 -00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,000 -You can't own anything that is for public consumption ever. - -163 -00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:24,000 -It's like the best you can do is that you have exclusive, exclusive knowledge of something. - -164 -00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,000 -That's the best you can do in the world of data. - -165 -00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,000 -And data is information and information is like the number three and the number three is - -166 -00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,000 -like an idea and you can't really own an idea. - -167 -00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,000 -Yeah. - -168 -00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,000 -It's just like, it's in some sense, all that Bitcoin trying to do is like simulate ownership. - -169 -00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,000 -But I think we have all these, it's tunnel time, by the way, in case you don't do it. - -170 -00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,000 -All right. - -171 -00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,000 -Readly apparent. - -172 -00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,000 -The wind is gone. - -173 -00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,000 -The echo is here. - -174 -00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:57,000 -No, but I think what's interesting is that Bitcoin, but cryptography in general gives us - -175 -00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:05,000 -tools to make this idea of defending a secret more robust, gives us more tooling, basically. - -176 -00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:10,000 -Like a multi-sig, for example, is a good example that, you know, you need to... - -177 -00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,000 -Oh, absolutely. - -178 -00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,000 -Pine Logs as well. - -179 -00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,000 -It's a very novel concept. - -180 -00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -181 -00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,000 -Or Shamir Sharding. - -182 -00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:27,000 -These are tools that allow us to manage a secret and keep a secret in a more robust - -183 -00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,000 -way. - -184 -00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,000 -It's still a secret. - -185 -00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,000 -It's a different... - -186 -00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,000 -It's, historically speaking, the guy with the longer stick one. - -187 -00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,000 -Yeah. - -188 -00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,000 -When it comes to ownership and when it comes to defending property, historically speaking, - -189 -00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,000 -violence always won. - -190 -00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,000 -What's new about cryptography is violence doesn't win. - -191 -00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,000 -You can't... - -192 -00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,000 -You can't... - -193 -00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,000 -I mean, there was... - -194 -00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,000 -Was it Apple Bomb or was it even... - -195 -00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:57,000 -I don't know who said it, but no amount of violence will ever solve a math problem. - -196 -00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,000 -And that's what's novel about it. - -197 -00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:04,000 -And that's what the whole, like, sovereign individual thesis is about and all those kind - -198 -00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,000 -of things. - -199 -00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,000 -I mean, at the end of the day, the key... - -200 -00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,000 -Unless you burn the key, the key is still somewhere... - -201 -00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,000 -Yeah, but you can also not provably burn it, right? - -202 -00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,000 -Yes. - -203 -00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,000 -And it relates to a lot of the confusions, again, on the notion side. - -204 -00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,000 -It's like, you can't really delete your profile. - -205 -00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:18,000 -Yes. - -206 -00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,000 -For example. - -207 -00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,000 -We just merged Nib62, which is this... - -208 -00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,000 -I know. - -209 -00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000 -Make-believe. - -210 -00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -211 -00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,000 -It's make-believe, like, the profile is gone. - -212 -00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,000 -Yes. - -213 -00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,000 -But if you still have a copy of the private key somewhere, you can start signing events - -214 -00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,000 -again and just pushing them out. - -215 -00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:38,000 -Yeah, the idea is that there is this one event that, regardless of the time of the event - -216 -00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,000 -or anything like that, you can take a round and it's an instruction, you know, if the - -217 -00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,000 -signature matches... - -218 -00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,000 -Yeah, to ignore the profile. - -219 -00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,000 -It's an instruction to the relays to delete everything, basically. - -220 -00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,000 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -221 -00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,000 -But it's completely make-believe. - -222 -00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,000 -Yeah, it's make-believe. - -223 -00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,000 -And it's also kind of bad, I think, in some sense, because what if someone takes over your - -224 -00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,000 -account? - -225 -00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,000 -It's like, what if you get hacked? - -226 -00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,000 -What if someone controls your private key that you don't want... - -227 -00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,000 -Oh, I'm a firm believer in burning the ship. - -228 -00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,000 -If your NSEC is compromised, leak the NSEC. - -229 -00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,000 -Yeah, no, but... - -230 -00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,000 -Because it's a complete destroyer, because we don't have time in Noster. - -231 -00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,000 -Noster cannot tell time. - -232 -00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,000 -Yeah. - -233 -00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,000 -Once the key is burned, you can rewrite anything, you can delete, you can do whatever, right? - -234 -00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,000 -Yeah. - -235 -00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:24,000 -So, if you leak the key, the whole history of that key is destroyed. - -236 -00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,000 -Because everything could have been forged. - -237 -00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000 -Yeah. - -238 -00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,000 -No, it's... - -239 -00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,000 -But that's also... - -240 -00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,000 -It relates to the misconception about the nature of data itself. - -241 -00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,000 -You just spoke about the destroying of a key and the destruction of data and all those - -242 -00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,000 -kind of things that we speak about deleting the data and so on. - -243 -00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,000 -And it's kind of impossible. - -244 -00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,000 -Yeah, no, no. - -245 -00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,000 -Yeah, I agree. - -246 -00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:45,000 -You can't prove deletion. - -247 -00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,000 -Like, you can destroy a chair. - -248 -00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,000 -You can provably destroy a chair. - -249 -00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,000 -Like, there's a chair, there's one chair, and you take a sledgehammer, and you destroy the - -250 -00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,000 -chair, and the chair is gone. - -251 -00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,000 -You have to have tears. - -252 -00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -253 -00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,000 -And data works very, very differently. - -254 -00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,000 -Yes. - -255 -00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:03,000 -Yes, you can destroy data. - -256 -00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,000 -Like, if there's only... - -257 -00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:10,000 -If you know for sure that there's only one copy of the data, and you destroy the medium - -258 -00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,000 -that holds it, then the data's gone. - -259 -00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,000 -Okay, fair enough, fair enough. - -260 -00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,000 -But most data, and especially in a networked world, it doesn't work like this. - -261 -00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,000 -Yeah. - -262 -00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,000 -Like, computers... - -263 -00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,000 -I mean, I spoke about this and wrote about this, like, so many times, I feel like a broken - -264 -00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:21,000 -record. - -265 -00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,000 -But it's computers are copying machines. - -266 -00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,000 -If you transfer something, you copy it, period. - -267 -00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,000 -You cannot move data. - -268 -00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,000 -Yeah. - -269 -00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,000 -You can only copy it and delete it. - -270 -00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:37,000 -And that's why in a networked online environment, it's so hard to speak about any deletion. - -271 -00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,000 -It's like, it's all based on trust. - -272 -00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,000 -Yeah, it's all... - -273 -00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,000 -It's like, Pinky promised I deleted the thing. - -274 -00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,000 -Yeah, it's all synthetic deletions. - -275 -00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,000 -Yeah. - -276 -00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,000 -It's not really what we mean by deletion. - -277 -00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,000 -It's just like a similar concept, but it's not real. - -278 -00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,000 -Exactly. - -279 -00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,000 -And all the things we talk about are kind of like that. - -280 -00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,000 -And that's what we touched on when we first talked, I think. - -281 -00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:04,000 -It's like, our metaphors and the things we have, the memes, so to speak, that we have - -282 -00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,000 -a lot of stuff, they all break down because they're all very inaccurate. - -283 -00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,000 -And I feel like we need new, clearer mental pictures of it. - -284 -00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,000 -I mean, files and folders are another example. - -285 -00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,000 -It's completely made up. - -286 -00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,000 -It's like, what is a folder? - -287 -00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,000 -It's like, where does it come from? - -288 -00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,000 -Or like the icons on the desktop or all those kind of things. - -289 -00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,000 -I mean, there are these great examples where it's like, no one knows anymore. - -290 -00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,000 -Like the kids don't know why the save button had a disc on it. - -291 -00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,000 -It's weird, like, quadratically shaped thing, whatever. - -292 -00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,000 -No one knows. - -293 -00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,000 -But that's just how it works. - -294 -00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:42,000 -And that's, we also talked about, you know, like our, the concept of distributed cognition, - -295 -00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,000 -where it's like, you didn't come up with this stuff. - -296 -00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,000 -Just like we didn't come up with English, you know? - -297 -00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:48,000 -Yeah. - -298 -00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,000 -English works like this. - -299 -00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,000 -And there's a reason why we have these words and use these words. - -300 -00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,000 -And it's all very complex. - -301 -00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,000 -You don't understand it. - -302 -00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,000 -No one really understands English. - -303 -00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,000 -English is way smarter than every single individual that speaks English. - -304 -00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,000 -And computers work like this as well. - -305 -00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,000 -And the metaphors we use work like this as well. - -306 -00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,000 -Like files and folders and ports and connections and whatnot. - -307 -00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,000 -In the end, it's all ones and zeros and so on and so forth. - -308 -00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,000 -Yeah, it's all make-believe. - -309 -00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,000 -It's all kind of make-believe in some sense. - -310 -00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,000 -And the same is true for ownership. - -311 -00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,000 -Hmm. - -312 -00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:22,000 -But I think ownership is so confused nowadays, because you can't really own data. - -313 -00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,000 -You can simulate ownership in some sense, but I think we shouldn't even talk about ownership. - -314 -00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,000 -We should talk about control. - -315 -00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,000 -We should talk about like, who is in charge, so to speak. - -316 -00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,000 -Because that's, that's way more important. - -317 -00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,000 -And that's also kind of what we mean. - -318 -00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,000 -That's what we mean when we say, you own your data in Nasser, so to speak. - -319 -00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:48,000 -Like you, no one can tell you what to do, or no one can kick you out, or no one can delete - -320 -00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,000 -it in your name, so to speak. - -321 -00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,000 -You know? - -322 -00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:58,000 -Yeah, I think the idea of own the data within the context of Nasser comes a bit from the, - -323 -00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:07,000 -what we were discussing in one of our dialogues, not episode, about the, the authenticity of - -324 -00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,000 -the data being bare within Nasser. - -325 -00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:10,000 -Exactly. - -326 -00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:16,000 -Whereas in platforms, the authenticity comes from the, the authority that says, yes, Gigi - -327 -00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,000 -said this thing. - -328 -00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,000 -Yeah. - -329 -00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:25,000 -And given that the authenticity came from the authority, if the authority decides not - -330 -00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:30,000 -to give that data, like the authority has to control whether it shows that data or shadow - -331 -00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,000 -bands the data, right? - -332 -00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,000 -Yeah. - -333 -00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,000 -Within the context of Nasser, that's the case. - -334 -00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,000 -You can simulate a bare instrument, so to speak, with that concept. - -335 -00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:46,000 -But, but it all stems, it doesn't really stem from any type of ownership. - -336 -00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,000 -If anything, it stems from exclusive knowledge of a secret. - -337 -00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:55,000 -So if you manage to keep your private key secure, and you're actually in control of it, - -338 -00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:01,000 -then you can simulate the bare type characteristics of a chunk of data. - -339 -00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,000 -And it's true in Bitcoin, it's true in Nasser, it's true across the board, basically. - -340 -00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:09,000 -Yeah. - -341 -00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,000 -So data ownership is a lie. - -342 -00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,000 -That's what I'm trying to say. - -343 -00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,000 -You can't own data. - -344 -00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:21,000 -No, I, I, I, I think the, um, it, it's true that... - -345 -00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,000 -By the way, that's waves. - -346 -00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,000 -Yeah, these waves are insane. - -347 -00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:28,000 -It's not cars, like when Fiat Jeff is usually talking, we're not on a highway. - -348 -00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,000 -But it's, it's like really big waves today. - -349 -00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,000 -Yeah, it's the wind. - -350 -00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:41,000 -The, um, I lost my train of thought. - -351 -00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,000 -It's the waves. - -352 -00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,000 -Yeah, it's the waves. - -353 -00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,000 -It comes in waves. - -354 -00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:55,000 -No, but I, but I think, um, the, because there's still a lot of people that are, that have kind of Nasser derangement syndrome. - -355 -00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:56,000 -Yes, very much so. - -356 -00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,000 -And there's still a lot of people that have Bitcoin derangement syndrome, of course. - -357 -00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,000 -Like I'm not even talking about those anymore. - -358 -00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,000 -They are kind of uninteresting. - -359 -00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,000 -They're all the same now. - -360 -00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:13,000 -But we have so many ex-coiners now that kind of, you know, um, basically criticize Nasser for sometimes valid reasons, sometimes invalid reasons. - -361 -00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:21,000 -And that's one thing I see over and over and over again with the kind of, the misconceptions about what it means to own your data. - -362 -00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:29,000 -Like what it means to, to where does the freedom that those systems provide you actually come from? - -363 -00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,000 -Like where does it actually come from? - -364 -00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:41,000 -And I, I mean, we discussed this the last time already a little bit, like the freedom implies responsibility and the responsibility lies in you taking care of your private key. - -365 -00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:48,000 -And in an extended sense on the Nasser side, you taking care of copies of your data if you want to. - -366 -00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,000 -And that's true on the Bitcoin side as well. - -367 -00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:59,000 -Like if you really, like if you really want to take charge, you have to run your own node, keep a copy of the data, enforce the rules, all those kinds of things. - -368 -00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,000 -And that's where, that's why you are in charge and why you can be in charge. - -369 -00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,000 -It's impossible for all the platforms. - -370 -00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:13,000 -Like you cannot be, you can't, you don't have a say what happens to you on Twitter, on X, on YouTube and so on. - -371 -00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,000 -You absolutely have a say on Nasser. - -372 -00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:22,000 -And to me, that's what's so extremely uninteresting about PubKey. - -373 -00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,000 -Okay. - -374 -00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,000 -I know very little about it, by the way. - -375 -00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:42,000 -So basically the way it works is you sign a DNS record, you put it on a DHT, saying my data is in this one, they call it home server, essentially it's like a relay kind of. - -376 -00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:49,000 -So you sign that pointer saying my data is there, go get it over there. - -377 -00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,000 -And that's it, right? - -378 -00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,000 -When you want to write, it's just a, whatever, a REST API, for example. - -379 -00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,000 -I don't know if it's an actual REST API, it doesn't matter. - -380 -00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:06,000 -You just want to publish something, you publish it on that one home server, and that's it. - -381 -00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:12,000 -But there is no, there is no, there are no signatures beyond the DNS record. - -382 -00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:21,000 -So you're essentially saying the authority of what data I actually created is given by this one server. - -383 -00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:27,000 -You do have the ability of changing the server, and you have to because the DHT kicks you out. - -384 -00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:33,000 -But you have to say, I am writing over here. - -385 -00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,000 -This one over here can be, can be malicious. - -386 -00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,000 -They can fake data because your data is not signed. - -387 -00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,000 -Okay, yeah. - -388 -00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,000 -Like each event, each... - -389 -00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,000 -The pointers are signed. - -390 -00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,000 -Only the pointers are signed. - -391 -00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,000 -Only the pointer is signed. - -392 -00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,000 -But... - -393 -00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,000 -Can it point to multiple... - -394 -00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,000 -No, it also can only point to one. - -395 -00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,000 -That's kind of bad. - -396 -00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:57,000 -To me, that is a very poor design. - -397 -00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:05,000 -And the whole idea for doing it in this way is that that gives you the ability of keeping the key kind of cold. - -398 -00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:06,000 -But... - -399 -00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:12,000 -Cold in the sense that it never leaves your local area network, for example. - -400 -00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,000 -You don't have to use any client. - -401 -00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:21,000 -You don't have to put your private key on each client, right? - -402 -00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:27,000 -Like you can use different clients and you don't have to expose your private key to each one of them - -403 -00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:33,000 -because the only thing that you're actually signing is the DNS record. - -404 -00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,000 -But then you're back to the authorities that these homes are. - -405 -00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,000 -Yes, you can change it if it becomes malicious. - -406 -00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:46,000 -But there are so many ways in which the home server can trick you even in a way where... - -407 -00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,000 -Like it could just shadow ban you. - -408 -00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,000 -It could... - -409 -00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,000 -Oh, sure. - -410 -00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,000 -It could not show your data only to some IP addresses or it could fake your data. - -411 -00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,000 -It could say... - -412 -00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:01,000 -What usually also happens is like if there's only one source for the data, it goes away and all that remains is the pointers. - -413 -00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:06,000 -That's what all the NFT people ran into where, you know, like it's hosted somewhere on like... - -414 -00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,000 -You own this 404. - -415 -00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,000 -Exactly. - -416 -00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000 -You own this 404. - -417 -00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,000 -It's a link to AWS and all those kind of things. - -418 -00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,000 -And yeah, you don't own the 404, but it's a 404 now anyway. - -419 -00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,000 -There you go. - -420 -00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,000 -Yeah. - -421 -00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,000 -And yeah. - -422 -00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,000 -Okay. - -423 -00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,000 -What would be the reason... - -424 -00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:32,000 -Because that's kind of the ingenious part of the Nostra slash Bitcoin architecture is that you don't rely on one data source, period. - -425 -00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:33,000 -Yeah. - -426 -00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,000 -It's like on the Bitcoin side, you don't rely on any data source anyway. - -427 -00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,000 -The data is self-reliant, which is the innovation basically. - -428 -00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,000 -Yeah. - -429 -00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,000 -100%. - -430 -00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,000 -It provides. - -431 -00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:49,000 -And on the Nostra side, it's similar without the temporal component. - -432 -00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,000 -And that's why it's kind of like a bearer thing. - -433 -00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,000 -That's what you mentioned. - -434 -00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:59,000 -Like the important part is that the servers are not only stupid and exchangeable and so on, but that the data itself is bearer. - -435 -00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,000 -So you don't have to trust whoever gives you the data in that sense. - -436 -00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:08,000 -And if you use multiple sources, if you use multiple stupid servers, multiple relays at the same time... - -437 -00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,000 -Or a pen drive. - -438 -00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,000 -Yeah. - -439 -00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,000 -I mean, that too. - -440 -00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,000 -But it's like if you... - -441 -00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,000 -I think the ingenious part is like if one... - -442 -00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,000 -I mean, we discussed this already, but if one relay goes offline, you don't even feel it. - -443 -00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,000 -You need to feel it for writing, not for reading. - -444 -00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,000 -100%. - -445 -00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,000 -And I think that's the right approach. - -446 -00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,000 -And I think that's also... - -447 -00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,000 -It's... - -448 -00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,000 -I mean, Torrent had these ideas as well, where it's just like you... - -449 -00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,000 -It's similar, but also different. - -450 -00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,000 -But it's basically like... - -451 -00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,000 -It doesn't matter if a thing goes down. - -452 -00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,000 -The whole system still works. - -453 -00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,000 -And that's the important characteristic. - -454 -00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,000 -100%. - -455 -00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,000 -And that relates a lot with the... - -456 -00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:50,000 -I don't even know if we already want to open the door, but with the design of NADSABs. - -457 -00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,000 -Where... - -458 -00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,000 -Or of NADSABs. - -459 -00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,000 -Of NIP60 and NIP61. - -460 -00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,000 -Where the money is the data. - -461 -00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:02,000 -Your private key controls that only you can have access to that data. - -462 -00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,000 -And I recently read... - -463 -00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,000 -But that's an important point that I think many, many people don't understand. - -464 -00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,000 -In the sense that... - -465 -00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,000 -Because... - -466 -00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,000 -Okay. - -467 -00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,000 -So first of all, eCash is bearer. - -468 -00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,000 -Period. - -469 -00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,000 -Like the money is the token. - -470 -00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,000 -Yeah. - -471 -00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,000 -So that's the first thing to really internalize. - -472 -00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,000 -And the switch that's kind of the... - -473 -00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,000 -The... - -474 -00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,000 -We kind of went full circle. - -475 -00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,000 -You know? - -476 -00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,000 -Because on the Bitcoin side, it's... - -477 -00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,000 -All the public is out in the open. - -478 -00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,000 -The only thing that's really private is the private keys. - -479 -00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,000 -And so... - -480 -00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,000 -It doesn't even matter that people know... - -481 -00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,000 -Like that money moved A to B. - -482 -00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,000 -Like if no one else can move it, but person C... - -483 -00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,000 -Like as the next one, it doesn't matter. - -484 -00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,000 -It doesn't matter that it's all out in the open. - -485 -00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,000 -And with nutsnaps, it's the same principle in a sense that it's like... - -486 -00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,000 -If you... - -487 -00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:54,000 -If you lock the bearer token to a specific NPUB, it can be all out in the open. - -488 -00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,000 -It doesn't matter. - -489 -00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,000 -Like it's... - -490 -00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,000 -Again, it's about... - -491 -00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,000 -The ownership and control part. - -492 -00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,000 -You know? - -493 -00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,000 -Like it's about... - -494 -00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,000 -On the Bitcoin side as well, we simulate ownership by exclusive control. - -495 -00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,000 -And it doesn't even matter that where this data is stored shouldn't matter. - -496 -00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,000 -And I think that's the... - -497 -00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,000 -That's... - -498 -00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,000 -That's the thing. - -499 -00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,000 -That's the... - -500 -00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,000 -That's the thing that we landed on so many times. - -501 -00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,000 -Where the data comes from and where it is stored shouldn't fucking matter. - -502 -00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,000 -And I, as a writer for example... - -503 -00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,000 -Like... - -504 -00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,000 -Like... - -505 -00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,000 -It's... - -506 -00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,000 -In some sense, we figured all these out a long time ago. - -507 -00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,000 -Like with books for example. - -508 -00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,000 -A book has an ISBN number. - -509 -00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,000 -How you read it. - -510 -00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,000 -Where you get this book. - -511 -00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,000 -Whether it's in digital form or audio book form. - -512 -00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,000 -Or like what kind of... - -513 -00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,000 -You know? - -514 -00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,000 -Who printed it? - -515 -00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,000 -And where do you read the information from? - -516 -00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,000 -Shouldn't matter. - -517 -00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,000 -At all. - -518 -00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,000 -At all. - -519 -00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,000 -It should matter. - -520 -00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,000 -If we... - -521 -00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,000 -If we discuss the book. - -522 -00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,000 -Like... - -523 -00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,000 -Or if a system discusses the book. - -524 -00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,000 -It... - -525 -00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,000 -It shouldn't be an Amazon link. - -526 -00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,000 -It should be an ISBN number. - -527 -00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,000 -You know what I mean? - -528 -00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,000 -And that's what Noster got right. - -529 -00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,000 -We're only dealing with... - -530 -00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,000 -And Bitcoin got right and so on. - -531 -00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,000 -Like we only deal with cryptographic identifiers. - -532 -00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,000 -Where the data comes from. - -533 -00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,000 -Doesn't matter. - -534 -00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,000 -At all. - -535 -00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,000 -This should... - -536 -00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,000 -Like... - -537 -00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,000 -Not really even exist in that concept. - -538 -00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,000 -If... - -539 -00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,000 -If it's all USB sticks. - -540 -00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,000 -It still works. - -541 -00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,000 -Like Noster still works over carrier pigeon. - -542 -00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,000 -Bitcoin still works over carrier pigeon. - -543 -00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,000 -And that's... - -544 -00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,000 -That's the right approach. - -545 -00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,000 -Like it doesn't matter if... - -546 -00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,000 -If something goes down or whatever. - -547 -00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,000 -Okay? - -548 -00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,000 -I'm ranting again. - -549 -00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,000 -No. - -550 -00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,000 -But it relates to... - -551 -00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,000 -So... - -552 -00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,000 -I read... - -553 -00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,000 -Someone wrote... - -554 -00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,000 -These... - -555 -00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,000 -Short... - -556 -00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,000 -Article about... - -557 -00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,000 -About... - -558 -00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,000 -NutsApps. - -559 -00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,000 -And... - -560 -00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,000 -From the get-go. - -561 -00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,000 -They got... - -562 -00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,000 -A lot of fundamental stuff wrong. - -563 -00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,000 -And... - -564 -00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,000 -Actually the article concludes... - -565 -00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,000 -With something like... - -566 -00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,000 -Uh... - -567 -00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,000 -Relay operators should be... - -568 -00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,000 -Very... - -569 -00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,000 -Um... - -570 -00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,000 -Um... - -571 -00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,000 -I don't know... - -572 -00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,000 -Very careful or something like that. - -573 -00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,000 -Uh... - -574 -00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,000 -Very worried about... - -575 -00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,000 -Uh... - -576 -00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,000 -Keeping this data... - -577 -00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,000 -On the... - -578 -00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,000 -On the risk of becoming money transmitters... - -579 -00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,000 -Or something like that. - -580 -00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,000 -You know... - -581 -00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,000 -Money operator... - -582 -00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,000 -I don't know... - -583 -00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000 -Money broker... - -584 -00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,000 -Something like that. - -585 -00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,000 -Is that... - -586 -00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,000 -It's... - -587 -00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,000 -It's... - -588 -00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,000 -It's data. - -589 -00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,000 -Like... - -590 -00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,000 -Cashew tokens... - -591 -00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,000 -Have been transmitted... - -592 -00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,000 -Over wires. - -593 -00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,000 -Over bank wires. - -594 -00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,000 -Yeah. - -595 -00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,000 -On the memo line. - -596 -00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,000 -Over emojis. - -597 -00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,000 -Over emojis. - -598 -00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,000 -That's the thing about data. - -599 -00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,000 -It can be... - -600 -00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,000 -It can be anything and you can put it into... - -601 -00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,000 -In anything. - -602 -00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,000 -And it will be put in... - -603 -00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,000 -Yes. - -604 -00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,000 -Yeah. - -605 -00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,000 -It can be 12 words, for example. - -606 -00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,000 -It's like... - -607 -00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,000 -Data... - -608 -00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,000 -Data and data representation are... - -609 -00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,000 -Like... - -610 -00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,000 -It's... - -611 -00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,000 -You can represent any data... - -612 -00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,000 -As anything. - -613 -00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,000 -It's like... - -614 -00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,000 -You can arrange the... - -615 -00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,000 -The... - -616 -00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,000 -Fucking... - -617 -00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,000 -You know... - -618 -00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,000 -Like... - -619 -00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,000 -Sand corns here on the beach... - -620 -00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,000 -To... - -621 -00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,000 -You know... - -622 -00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,000 -Be a Bitcoin private key, for example. - -623 -00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,000 -Or... - -624 -00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,000 -What have you. - -625 -00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,000 -It's... - -626 -00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,000 -Again... - -627 -00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,000 -I think... - -628 -00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,000 -I feel like... - -629 -00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,000 -It's those fundamental things that people don't understand. - -630 -00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,000 -Like... - -631 -00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,000 -In the world of information... - -632 -00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,000 -In cyberspace... - -633 -00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,000 -All we have is data... - -634 -00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,000 -And the manipulation of data. - -635 -00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,000 -That's all we have. - -636 -00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,000 -Period. - -637 -00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,000 -Period. - -638 -00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,000 -The end. - -639 -00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,000 -We don't have anything else. - -640 -00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,000 -You know... - -641 -00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,000 -You know... - -642 -00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,000 -From a practical standpoint... - -643 -00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,000 -What's very, very interesting... - -644 -00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,000 -Like... - -645 -00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,000 -I've implemented... - -646 -00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,000 -NatSox... - -647 -00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,000 -The NIP-60... - -648 -00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,000 -The wallet itself... - -649 -00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,000 -Many, many, many times... - -650 -00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,000 -Already. - -651 -00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,000 -And... - -652 -00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,000 -Every single time... - -653 -00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,000 -You know what's the hardest part? - -654 -00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,000 -Like... - -655 -00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,000 -Number one challenge I get... - -656 -00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,000 -I mean... - -657 -00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,000 -Number one is... - -658 -00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,000 -The people calling me a shit-coiner... - -659 -00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,000 -Every single one... - -660 -00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,000 -Is using... - -661 -00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,000 -Okay... - -662 -00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,000 -Whatever... - -663 -00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,000 -Like... - -664 -00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,000 -Yeah... - -665 -00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,000 -Okay... - -666 -00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,000 -Great... - -667 -00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,000 -Perfect... - -668 -00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,000 -Every single one of the people calling me a shit-coiner... - -669 -00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,000 -Every single one... - -670 -00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,000 -Is using... - -671 -00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,000 -Strike... - -672 -00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,000 -Or... - -673 -00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,000 -What if it was a Toshi to receive subs? - -674 -00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,000 -Okay... - -675 -00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,000 -Sure... - -676 -00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,000 -Whatever... - -677 -00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,000 -It's fine... - -678 -00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,000 -It's fine... - -679 -00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,000 -Can't delete your money... - -680 -00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,000 -Really... - -681 -00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,000 -Can't delete your money... - -682 -00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,000 -Every single time... - -683 -00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,000 -Is... - -684 -00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,000 -Oh... - -685 -00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,000 -No... - -686 -00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,000 -No... - -687 -00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,000 -This is super bad... - -688 -00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,000 -Because the release can delete your money... - -689 -00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,000 -Number one challenge... - -690 -00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,000 -Implementing... - -691 -00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,000 -NIP-60... - -692 -00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,000 -Is... - -693 -00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,000 -Receiving... - -694 -00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,000 -Too many tokens... - -695 -00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,000 -Not too few... - -696 -00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,000 -So the... - -697 -00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,000 -Token event... - -698 -00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,000 -Where you have the money itself... - -699 -00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,000 -You want to delete it... - -700 -00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,000 -Because you... - -701 -00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,000 -Spent it... - -702 -00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,000 -And you moved it somewhere else... - -703 -00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,640 -sometimes the release will still send you the fucking token. - -704 -00:27:00,220 --> 00:27:01,480 -Because it's on one server. - -705 -00:27:01,620 --> 00:27:03,040 -You have a swarm of relays, basically. - -706 -00:27:03,380 --> 00:27:03,960 -You throw it around. - -707 -00:27:04,620 --> 00:27:08,560 -And then the issue is that now you have to do state reconciliation. - -708 -00:27:08,860 --> 00:27:12,020 -Like, wait, no, this cash, this token, this proof has been spent. - -709 -00:27:12,420 --> 00:27:14,340 -I should not compete as part of my state. - -710 -00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:18,440 -So the hardest challenge is not getting too few tokens. - -711 -00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,040 -It's getting too much fucking data. - -712 -00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:22,700 -I actually had to change the... - -713 -00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,300 -Because if there is no global, that's actually a super hard problem. - -714 -00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:27,420 -And you have to kind of... - -715 -00:27:27,420 --> 00:27:28,920 -You have to... - -716 -00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,240 -With the data you get from the swarm, - -717 -00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,380 -you have to figure out what's going on. - -718 -00:27:33,420 --> 00:27:35,040 -And you have to keep a local state, at least. - -719 -00:27:35,180 --> 00:27:39,780 -So I actually changed the NIP 60 maybe like two weeks ago. - -720 -00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,740 -Saying, okay, fuck it, I'm done doing state recalculation. - -721 -00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,340 -What I'm doing now is when I produce a new token - -722 -00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:50,500 -that obsoletes a previous state, - -723 -00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,180 -I say, actually, this other ID, don't compete. - -724 -00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:55,300 -This ID is deleted. - -725 -00:27:55,420 --> 00:27:57,060 -Even if you get it, fucking ignore it. - -726 -00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,500 -So now it's like way easier to compute the state. - -727 -00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,440 -But what I want to stress is - -728 -00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,120 -that the problem is not - -729 -00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:11,340 -that the data is being withheld from you. - -730 -00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,900 -It's that the data is so fucking easy to copy - -731 -00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:16,160 -that it just spreads everywhere. - -732 -00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:17,800 -It just spreads everywhere. - -733 -00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,540 -And that's usually what data does. - -734 -00:28:20,740 --> 00:28:22,260 -That's usually... - -735 -00:28:22,260 --> 00:28:23,920 -That's how information works. - -736 -00:28:24,660 --> 00:28:25,700 -That's how information works. - -737 -00:28:25,780 --> 00:28:26,560 -Information spreads. - -738 -00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,760 -So that's where information wants to be free comes from - -739 -00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:31,200 -and so on. - -740 -00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:33,060 -And that's why it's so hard, - -741 -00:28:33,460 --> 00:28:36,800 -so, so, so hard to keep keys secret - -742 -00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:37,560 -and store them properly. - -743 -00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,140 -Because information wants to spread. - -744 -00:28:39,620 --> 00:28:42,000 -It's like it's the only way to move information around - -745 -00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:42,800 -is to spread it. - -746 -00:28:43,420 --> 00:28:45,240 -And again, you can't prove deletion. - -747 -00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,560 -And so, like, it's... - -748 -00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,540 -I must have said this like 500 times in the last 10 years, - -749 -00:28:50,620 --> 00:28:52,220 -but I'm going to say the whole thing again. - -750 -00:28:52,740 --> 00:28:55,660 -So, okay, the difference between an apple and an idea is like... - -751 -00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:57,020 -An information is like an idea. - -752 -00:28:57,340 --> 00:28:58,200 -And the difference is, - -753 -00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,040 -if I have an apple, - -754 -00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,200 -if I have an apple and you have an apple, - -755 -00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:04,100 -and I give my apple to you, - -756 -00:29:04,580 --> 00:29:05,520 -you have two apples, - -757 -00:29:06,020 --> 00:29:06,660 -I have zero. - -758 -00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:08,260 -If I have an idea, - -759 -00:29:08,980 --> 00:29:10,540 -and it goes... - -760 -00:29:10,540 --> 00:29:11,780 -I have messed it up already. - -761 -00:29:11,860 --> 00:29:13,080 -So that's how long I didn't say. - -762 -00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,780 -If I have an apple and you have an apple, - -763 -00:29:14,980 --> 00:29:16,620 -and we exchange apples, - -764 -00:29:16,780 --> 00:29:17,800 -both of us still have an apple. - -765 -00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,020 -If I have an idea and you have an idea, - -766 -00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:21,200 -and we exchange ideas, - -767 -00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:22,320 -both of us have two ideas. - -768 -00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,360 -So that's... - -769 -00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:24,760 -You can already see just with that, - -770 -00:29:24,820 --> 00:29:26,640 -that information only spreads. - -771 -00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,620 -It's like because you can't prove deletion, - -772 -00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:29,840 -because all those kind of things. - -773 -00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:31,700 -It's like it's very... - -774 -00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:33,840 -It's once your private key is leaked, - -775 -00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:34,620 -you're wrecked. - -776 -00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:35,100 -That's it. - -777 -00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:36,020 -That's it. - -778 -00:29:36,020 --> 00:29:37,560 -Like you can't go back from that. - -779 -00:29:37,980 --> 00:29:40,560 -It's like some guy probably still has a copy and so on. - -780 -00:29:40,580 --> 00:29:41,760 -That's why it's so, so, so hard. - -781 -00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,320 -Like it must never leak. - -782 -00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,000 -It's so hard to actually keep it a secret - -783 -00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,160 -and all those kind of things. - -784 -00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,040 -And it all relates to these things. - -785 -00:29:49,260 --> 00:29:52,580 -Like that's the ground truth of how information works. - -786 -00:29:52,940 --> 00:29:54,800 -And almost all of the confusions - -787 -00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,120 -and all the issues that we have stems from that. - -788 -00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,300 -Everything you described up to now stems from that. - -789 -00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,260 -It's like it's... - -790 -00:30:02,260 --> 00:30:03,740 -Yeah, it's hard to... - -791 -00:30:03,740 --> 00:30:05,620 -Of course you're getting too many proofs, - -792 -00:30:05,620 --> 00:30:07,840 -because the relays are obviously not in sync - -793 -00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:08,840 -because there is no global. - -794 -00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,580 -So you will get stuff that's outdated - -795 -00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:12,480 -and you'll get a token that's already spent - -796 -00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:13,560 -and all those kind of things. - -797 -00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:16,300 -So that's just how it works. - -798 -00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,080 -That's just how it works. - -799 -00:30:20,220 --> 00:30:23,300 -We've reached the end of our path. - -800 -00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:24,020 -Yeah. - -801 -00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,200 -It's a state intervention - -802 -00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:27,740 -stops us from going further. - -803 -00:30:28,260 --> 00:30:28,920 -Such a shame. - -804 -00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:34,800 -I'm looking forward to listening to a couple of minutes - -805 -00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:35,660 -in the middle - -806 -00:30:35,660 --> 00:30:37,880 -when it's like 10 meter waves and strong winds. - -807 -00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:40,800 -Like you're ranting about nutsabs. - -808 -00:30:41,020 --> 00:30:42,400 -No one can hear a thing probably. - -809 -00:30:42,980 --> 00:30:43,400 -But anyway. - -810 -00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:46,560 -No one asks. - -811 -00:30:47,140 --> 00:30:47,800 -What does this mean? - -812 -00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,020 -Interesting. - -813 -00:30:50,140 --> 00:30:50,980 -Interesting graffitis. - -814 -00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:52,200 -No, but anyway. - -815 -00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,060 -I really want to stress this, - -816 -00:30:54,140 --> 00:30:55,200 -because that's also... - -817 -00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,200 -That's the kind of... - -818 -00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,220 -There's another thing I want to touch on. - -819 -00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,620 -Because there is only information - -820 -00:31:04,620 --> 00:31:06,240 -and the manipulation of information - -821 -00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,040 -is only data and computation. - -822 -00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,060 -It's the only two things we have in cyberspace, period. - -823 -00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,480 -And we simulate everything else with that. - -824 -00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:13,980 -We simulate files with that. - -825 -00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:14,940 -We simulate folders. - -826 -00:31:15,180 --> 00:31:16,160 -We simulate ownership. - -827 -00:31:16,620 --> 00:31:18,240 -We simulate all those kind of things. - -828 -00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:19,780 -We simulate bearer tokens and so on. - -829 -00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,540 -It all boils down to there being data - -830 -00:31:23,540 --> 00:31:24,740 -and the manipulation of data. - -831 -00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,460 -And so we talked a lot about... - -832 -00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:28,420 -In the courts and so on, - -833 -00:31:28,460 --> 00:31:30,140 -it's like, what can you actually sell - -834 -00:31:30,140 --> 00:31:31,860 -and what is actually scarce and so on. - -835 -00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:33,660 -And compute is actually scarce. - -836 -00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,060 -The intense manipulation of data is actually scarce. - -837 -00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,100 -And that's also how we landed on DVMs, - -838 -00:31:39,260 --> 00:31:40,380 -where it's like, okay, - -839 -00:31:40,460 --> 00:31:42,240 -that's all that DVMs do. - -840 -00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,300 -And that's why they are universal in a sense, - -841 -00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:45,840 -because that's all you can do. - -842 -00:31:46,260 --> 00:31:47,740 -It's like data goes in, - -843 -00:31:47,740 --> 00:31:51,240 -and, of course, the novel part is... - -844 -00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:52,900 -I mean, the main idea of DVMs - -845 -00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:55,700 -and why I think it should be interesting for developers - -846 -00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:59,700 -is like, we can actually build something like an AWS now - -847 -00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:02,200 -without all the bad parts of AWS. - -848 -00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,120 -And we can actually build... - -849 -00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,940 -And I think it will also scale really well. - -850 -00:32:07,140 --> 00:32:10,660 -And I think the permissionless nature of it, - -851 -00:32:10,740 --> 00:32:12,740 -even though I don't really like that term in a sense, - -852 -00:32:12,740 --> 00:32:18,580 -because you don't have any walls that lock you out. - -853 -00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:19,700 -That's the thing. - -854 -00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:20,920 -You can't just do stuff, - -855 -00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,360 -and you can just have agents use this thing, for example. - -856 -00:32:24,460 --> 00:32:28,280 -And you can just deploy something that runs compute, - -857 -00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:30,820 -and because compute is actually scarce, - -858 -00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:31,940 -people will pay for it. - -859 -00:32:31,940 --> 00:32:34,840 -And we saw this already with, like, image generation, for example, - -860 -00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,680 -or also text summarization, those kind of things. - -861 -00:32:37,220 --> 00:32:40,400 -All the LLM stuff that's currently the hot shit that's on. - -862 -00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:40,960 -Text-to-speech. - -863 -00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:48,720 -It doesn't make sense to sign up for a mid-journey plan for a year - -864 -00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,580 -to generate, like, three images or whatever. - -865 -00:32:50,780 --> 00:32:52,080 -It's like, if you already have sets, - -866 -00:32:52,220 --> 00:32:56,900 -it's way more sensible to use your Nutsap wallet - -867 -00:32:56,900 --> 00:33:00,780 -to query a DVM, like, have a DVM marketplace, - -868 -00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:01,960 -take care of the thing, - -869 -00:33:02,420 --> 00:33:06,060 -and you just pay whatever, like, 100 sets for it, whatever it is. - -870 -00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,280 -And that's where all these ideas came from. - -871 -00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:15,040 -Yeah, to me, when you say that this can do all the stuff - -872 -00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,640 -that AWS can do without all the bad things of AWS, - -873 -00:33:19,460 --> 00:33:23,640 -the other part that, to me, is absolutely fundamental, - -874 -00:33:23,780 --> 00:33:29,200 -and that's why, to me, NIP-89, like the Discovery stuff, - -875 -00:33:29,540 --> 00:33:32,920 -and NIP-90 DVMs are so intertwined. - -876 -00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:38,280 -Or rather, NIP-90 depends on NIP-89, - -877 -00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,060 -and it was kind of by coincidence - -878 -00:33:41,060 --> 00:33:44,260 -that they landed together in a sequential manner. - -879 -00:33:44,260 --> 00:33:51,580 -The idea that you can produce a new service, - -880 -00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,520 -a new algorithm, or whatever it might be, - -881 -00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,520 -a new image generation, or text-to-speech, - -882 -00:33:56,620 --> 00:33:58,640 -whatever service you want to provide, - -883 -00:33:58,980 --> 00:34:00,600 -whatever compute you want to produce, - -884 -00:34:01,020 --> 00:34:06,100 -and you can just go in and advertise it via NIP-89, - -885 -00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:08,120 -and it can be immediately available - -886 -00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,480 -in any client that supports that specific service. - -887 -00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,540 -To me, that is absolutely wild. - -888 -00:34:14,620 --> 00:34:18,140 -It's something that AWS simply cannot do. - -889 -00:34:18,420 --> 00:34:19,520 -Like, there is no fucking way. - -890 -00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:22,200 -Because they have to work in their permission sandbox, basically. - -891 -00:34:22,540 --> 00:34:23,620 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -892 -00:34:23,820 --> 00:34:27,680 -Like, how would you build a permissionless discovery layer - -893 -00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,560 -where you don't have to know anything - -894 -00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,620 -about the person buying the service - -895 -00:34:31,620 --> 00:34:33,380 -or providing the service? - -896 -00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:34,940 -You can't do it because micropayments don't work. - -897 -00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,140 -You would always have to batch it - -898 -00:34:36,140 --> 00:34:38,280 -until you land until, like, 15 bucks or 20 bucks. - -899 -00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:38,640 -Exactly. - -900 -00:34:38,720 --> 00:34:39,640 -That's the main reason. - -901 -00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:40,180 -Exactly. - -902 -00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:41,560 -Because of that, you need KYC - -903 -00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:42,840 -and all those kind of things, and so on. - -904 -00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,360 -And so it can't really scale outside of your bounds - -905 -00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:46,680 -where you already know your customer - -906 -00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,240 -and you already have a credit line to the customer - -907 -00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:49,040 -and all those kind of things. - -908 -00:34:49,140 --> 00:34:51,340 -Yeah, it's kind of like what we discussed last week - -909 -00:34:51,340 --> 00:34:54,800 -with the introduction of the 402 HTTP code. - -910 -00:34:54,820 --> 00:34:55,060 -Exactly. - -911 -00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,360 -It's like, oh, let's just put, like, an HTTP code. - -912 -00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:58,800 -Okay, we'll figure it out next week. - -913 -00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,680 -It's like, it might look like a fucking simple problem. - -914 -00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,380 -It is a really hard problem. - -915 -00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,620 -And because it invites so much complexity, - -916 -00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:11,220 -like solving 402 requires the creation of a blockchain - -917 -00:35:11,220 --> 00:35:13,600 -and mining sites all over the world. - -918 -00:35:14,060 --> 00:35:15,180 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -919 -00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,020 -And you need, I mean, there is also a reason, - -920 -00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:20,200 -and Kelly talks about this beautifully, of course, - -921 -00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,260 -but there is also a reason why eCash never took off - -922 -00:35:24,260 --> 00:35:28,260 -because eCash on fiat, basically, like, - -923 -00:35:28,380 --> 00:35:30,240 -it can never be trustless. - -924 -00:35:30,380 --> 00:35:32,420 -It's like, in some sense, it doesn't make sense. - -925 -00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:33,560 -Yeah, it would be an upgrade, - -926 -00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,840 -but it doesn't fix the fundamental issue. - -927 -00:35:36,780 --> 00:35:37,920 -eCash on Bitcoin, however, - -928 -00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:39,420 -it's a completely different story, - -929 -00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,040 -and that's why I believe, like, eCash now, - -930 -00:35:42,180 --> 00:35:44,320 -nowadays, now that Bitcoin exists and works - -931 -00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:45,280 -and we have all this stuff, - -932 -00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:47,320 -eCash actually fixes 402. - -933 -00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:48,880 -It actually does. - -934 -00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:52,060 -And I think, I mean, we can already see now - -935 -00:35:52,060 --> 00:35:52,840 -where this is going. - -936 -00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:55,360 -Again, like, coming back to NutsApps, - -937 -00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,300 -like, the superpower of all this stuff, - -938 -00:35:57,380 --> 00:36:01,360 -the superpower of cryptography in some sense - -939 -00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,280 -is that it is self-contained - -940 -00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,520 -and you can actually, you can simulate identity, - -941 -00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:08,600 -you can simulate ownership, - -942 -00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,580 -and you can simulate all those things - -943 -00:36:10,580 --> 00:36:13,720 -that we just discussed just with cryptography, - -944 -00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,140 -but the implication is, - -945 -00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:18,760 -and that's something that I think - -946 -00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,880 -lots of people on our side are also still confused, - -947 -00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:23,400 -and every time new people come in, - -948 -00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:24,400 -they will be confused again. - -949 -00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:26,500 -The only way it works - -950 -00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:30,700 -is if people take the responsibility - -951 -00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:32,440 -upon themselves to custody the keys. - -952 -00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:35,020 -Yes, we can have fancy constructs - -953 -00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:36,640 -with, you know, Multisig and Frost - -954 -00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:37,240 -and other things - -955 -00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:38,700 -where you have collaborative custody models, - -956 -00:36:38,780 --> 00:36:40,000 -potentially, and all those kind of things, - -957 -00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,960 -but everything flies out the window - -958 -00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,740 -if you don't hold your own keys. - -959 -00:36:44,820 --> 00:36:44,980 -Yes. - -960 -00:36:45,420 --> 00:36:46,680 -Everything flies out the window. - -961 -00:36:47,180 --> 00:36:49,680 -It's like we revert to the old model, - -962 -00:36:50,580 --> 00:36:54,600 -and that's kind of what you have to consider - -963 -00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,620 -in your design space - -964 -00:36:56,620 --> 00:36:58,800 -if you build something out in this world. - -965 -00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,740 -Like, that's the fundamental truth of the matter. - -966 -00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,460 -It's like the freedom that those things provide - -967 -00:37:07,460 --> 00:37:08,920 -only come if people, - -968 -00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,260 -if each individual takes the responsibility - -969 -00:37:11,260 --> 00:37:13,060 -of holding their own keys, - -970 -00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:13,920 -of keeping them secret, - -971 -00:37:14,220 --> 00:37:17,160 -and of taking care of, you know, - -972 -00:37:17,220 --> 00:37:18,440 -their self-sovereign secrets. - -973 -00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:21,480 -I'm ranting again. - -974 -00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:22,680 -I feel like I'm only ranting. - -975 -00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,640 -It's interesting because when we, - -976 -00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,460 -so we started working on the spec for Blossom - -977 -00:37:32,460 --> 00:37:35,760 -to do payments in some way, - -978 -00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:37,380 -either when you publish something, - -979 -00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,060 -when you upload something, - -980 -00:37:39,140 --> 00:37:40,520 -or when you get something, - -981 -00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:43,500 -you can include some payment. - -982 -00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,480 -And Quentin was working on the spec, - -983 -00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,580 -and he initially built it with Lightning. - -984 -00:37:51,580 --> 00:37:54,160 -So, on the HTTP header, - -985 -00:37:55,220 --> 00:37:57,300 -there was a negotiation step - -986 -00:37:57,300 --> 00:38:01,120 -where you would get a Bolt 11 Lightning invoice - -987 -00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,820 -from the Blossom server, - -988 -00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:05,880 -and then you would pay it, - -989 -00:38:06,220 --> 00:38:07,800 -and then you would provide the pre-image - -990 -00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,920 -on the HTTP header. - -991 -00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:09,620 -It was something like that. - -992 -00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,020 -Which is extremely fucking common, too. - -993 -00:38:14,020 --> 00:38:15,360 -And it requires both parties - -994 -00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,340 -to be online at the same time, - -995 -00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:17,220 -all those kind of things. - -996 -00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:17,960 -It requires a secret. - -997 -00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,400 -It requires an exchange. - -998 -00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:19,880 -Exactly. - -999 -00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,620 -It requires a negotiation step. - -1000 -00:38:21,620 --> 00:38:22,480 -It requires the whole dance. - -1001 -00:38:22,780 --> 00:38:24,200 -And LNURL has the same problem - -1002 -00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:24,780 -where you have, like, - -1003 -00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:25,900 -all this talking - -1004 -00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:27,700 -and all this exchanging of information. - -1005 -00:38:28,740 --> 00:38:30,780 -And when we looked at it, - -1006 -00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:31,100 -it was like, - -1007 -00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:32,780 -huh, yeah, - -1008 -00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,100 -maybe cashew would be a better fit. - -1009 -00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:37,620 -And it's literally, - -1010 -00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:38,880 -you do the get, - -1011 -00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:39,740 -or you do the post, - -1012 -00:38:39,780 --> 00:38:40,980 -and you put the cashew in there, - -1013 -00:38:41,020 --> 00:38:42,180 -and okay, thank you, goodbye. - -1014 -00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:42,940 -And that's it. - -1015 -00:38:42,940 --> 00:38:44,420 -There is no negotiation step. - -1016 -00:38:44,540 --> 00:38:45,300 -Here it is. - -1017 -00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:45,660 -Yeah. - -1018 -00:38:45,740 --> 00:38:46,480 -Here's the proof. - -1019 -00:38:46,860 --> 00:38:47,080 -Yeah. - -1020 -00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:48,080 -And that's, - -1021 -00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:48,980 -again, - -1022 -00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:50,940 -I feel like we figured all this out - -1023 -00:38:50,940 --> 00:38:53,700 -over the thousands - -1024 -00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:55,160 -and thousands of years of civilization. - -1025 -00:38:55,340 --> 00:38:56,420 -That's why we have coins - -1026 -00:38:56,420 --> 00:38:57,340 -in the first place. - -1027 -00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:58,340 -You know? - -1028 -00:38:58,480 --> 00:38:59,280 -It's like, - -1029 -00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,180 -having a bearer token - -1030 -00:39:02,180 --> 00:39:04,080 -is actually an insane innovation - -1031 -00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,940 -because you don't rely - -1032 -00:39:05,940 --> 00:39:06,840 -on a central party - -1033 -00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,120 -to tell you the truth of the matter, - -1034 -00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:09,060 -which is always wrong. - -1035 -00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:10,620 -Like, whatever is on the clay tablet - -1036 -00:39:10,620 --> 00:39:11,400 -is always wrong - -1037 -00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:12,600 -because you always have - -1038 -00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:13,120 -to come together - -1039 -00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:13,320 -and reconcile it. - -1040 -00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:14,320 -And it's always political too. - -1041 -00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:15,060 -Yeah, of course. - -1042 -00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:18,440 -And the people - -1043 -00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,060 -who are the entry lines - -1044 -00:39:20,060 --> 00:39:21,020 -on the clay tablets, - -1045 -00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:22,940 -they are completely bound - -1046 -00:39:22,940 --> 00:39:23,620 -to the person - -1047 -00:39:23,620 --> 00:39:24,480 -who controls the tablet. - -1048 -00:39:24,820 --> 00:39:25,280 -And that's why - -1049 -00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,180 -we landed on coins - -1050 -00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:27,140 -and then later notes - -1051 -00:39:27,140 --> 00:39:27,960 -and all those kind of things. - -1052 -00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:28,500 -But it is, - -1053 -00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,660 -having a bearer instrument - -1054 -00:39:30,660 --> 00:39:32,460 -actually solves this problem. - -1055 -00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:33,000 -And I mean, - -1056 -00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:34,560 -everyone should know - -1057 -00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:34,860 -that like, - -1058 -00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:36,160 -the market, - -1059 -00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:37,260 -tapping into - -1060 -00:39:37,260 --> 00:39:38,180 -the distributed cognition - -1061 -00:39:38,180 --> 00:39:38,660 -of the market - -1062 -00:39:38,660 --> 00:39:39,240 -is actually - -1063 -00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:39,820 -what makes - -1064 -00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:40,880 -a complex society work - -1065 -00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,080 -and all those kind of things - -1066 -00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:42,500 -and so on. - -1067 -00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:43,180 -And so the money - -1068 -00:39:43,180 --> 00:39:44,440 -also needs to be distributed. - -1069 -00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:45,680 -That's what coins actually are - -1070 -00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:46,580 -and so on and so forth. - -1071 -00:39:46,980 --> 00:39:48,280 -But for something simple - -1072 -00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,620 -like paying for an API call, - -1073 -00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,940 -that becomes readily apparent again. - -1074 -00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,180 -That's why I mentioned - -1075 -00:39:53,180 --> 00:39:53,380 -like, - -1076 -00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:54,920 -without the bad things - -1077 -00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:55,420 -of AWS, - -1078 -00:39:55,660 --> 00:39:56,720 -AWS is in charge. - -1079 -00:39:56,820 --> 00:39:58,460 -AWS has the clay tablet. - -1080 -00:39:58,580 --> 00:39:59,160 -Oh, 100%. - -1081 -00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:00,000 -Or Visa or MasterCard - -1082 -00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:00,480 -or what have you. - -1083 -00:40:00,900 --> 00:40:02,300 -And if they don't like you, - -1084 -00:40:02,340 --> 00:40:03,200 -they can kick you out. - -1085 -00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:04,920 -And I mean... - -1086 -00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:05,240 -Oh, they do. - -1087 -00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:05,900 -What do you do? - -1088 -00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:06,920 -They absolutely do. - -1089 -00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:07,120 -They look, - -1090 -00:40:07,260 --> 00:40:09,100 -they cancel my Amazon account. - -1091 -00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:10,300 -Oh, I'm not surprised. - -1092 -00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:10,760 -I mean, - -1093 -00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:11,560 -I'm not surprised. - -1094 -00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:12,060 -Look at you. - -1095 -00:40:12,380 --> 00:40:13,600 -You look like a terrorist. - -1096 -00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:16,120 -No, - -1097 -00:40:16,340 --> 00:40:18,140 -but that's the thing, - -1098 -00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:18,440 -you know, - -1099 -00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:19,340 -and I feel like - -1100 -00:40:19,340 --> 00:40:19,820 -we learned this - -1101 -00:40:19,820 --> 00:40:20,880 -over and over and over again - -1102 -00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,380 -over the course of history. - -1103 -00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:24,900 -And it's having a bearer talking. - -1104 -00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:26,400 -It is so much simpler, - -1105 -00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:26,880 -but yes, - -1106 -00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:27,900 -it requires responsibility. - -1107 -00:40:28,340 --> 00:40:29,200 -You have to - -1108 -00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:30,400 -actually figure out - -1109 -00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:30,680 -and we, - -1110 -00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:32,700 -no one thinks about this, - -1111 -00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:33,200 -you know, - -1112 -00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:34,100 -you don't take - -1113 -00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:35,100 -all your wealth - -1114 -00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:36,240 -in your like - -1115 -00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:37,840 -pocket money wallet - -1116 -00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:38,440 -with you - -1117 -00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:39,480 -because that's one - -1118 -00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:40,000 -of the criticisms - -1119 -00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:40,580 -of Nutsapps, - -1120 -00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:41,020 -for example. - -1121 -00:40:41,180 --> 00:40:41,360 -It's like, - -1122 -00:40:41,580 --> 00:40:41,960 -oh no, - -1123 -00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:42,620 -it's so unsecure. - -1124 -00:40:42,860 --> 00:40:43,120 -Yes, - -1125 -00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:44,080 -so is the money - -1126 -00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:44,680 -in your pocket. - -1127 -00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:46,120 -Someone might rob you. - -1128 -00:40:46,340 --> 00:40:47,300 -You might lose it. - -1129 -00:40:47,540 --> 00:40:48,800 -It might go under the couch - -1130 -00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:49,700 -and then it's gone - -1131 -00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:50,260 -and you're poor. - -1132 -00:40:50,380 --> 00:40:51,060 -Oh my Lord, - -1133 -00:40:51,140 --> 00:40:51,300 -no, - -1134 -00:40:51,380 --> 00:40:52,280 -what are we going to do? - -1135 -00:40:52,780 --> 00:40:53,580 -But the alternative - -1136 -00:40:53,580 --> 00:40:54,460 -is so much worse. - -1137 -00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:55,380 -The alternative - -1138 -00:40:55,380 --> 00:40:56,020 -is so much worse. - -1139 -00:40:56,140 --> 00:40:56,260 -Yeah, - -1140 -00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:57,060 -you have to take care - -1141 -00:40:57,060 --> 00:40:57,760 -of your own money. - -1142 -00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:58,560 -And like, - -1143 -00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:59,300 -if there's a, - -1144 -00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:00,420 -if you have like - -1145 -00:41:00,420 --> 00:41:01,280 -bars of gold, - -1146 -00:41:01,460 --> 00:41:02,420 -put them in a safe. - -1147 -00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:03,620 -You know, - -1148 -00:41:03,780 --> 00:41:04,340 -for example. - -1149 -00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:04,980 -Like, - -1150 -00:41:04,980 --> 00:41:06,260 -don't carry them around - -1151 -00:41:06,260 --> 00:41:07,020 -in your back pocket. - -1152 -00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:07,780 -You know, - -1153 -00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:08,280 -it's like, - -1154 -00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:09,040 -ah, - -1155 -00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:09,240 -well, - -1156 -00:41:09,340 --> 00:41:09,580 -anyway, - -1157 -00:41:09,820 --> 00:41:10,060 -again, - -1158 -00:41:10,380 --> 00:41:10,680 -this is, - -1159 -00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:11,680 -ah, - -1160 -00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:12,480 -it feels cathartic - -1161 -00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:13,700 -to rant about this stuff. - -1162 -00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:13,920 -No, - -1163 -00:41:13,980 --> 00:41:15,740 -but what I find - -1164 -00:41:15,740 --> 00:41:16,880 -absolutely fascinating - -1165 -00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:17,520 -is the fact - -1166 -00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:18,180 -that - -1167 -00:41:18,180 --> 00:41:20,840 -had we worked - -1168 -00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,180 -on Blossom - -1169 -00:41:22,180 --> 00:41:23,520 -before - -1170 -00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,480 -any type of - -1171 -00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:25,840 -e-cash - -1172 -00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,160 -was really available, - -1173 -00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:29,020 -the solution - -1174 -00:41:29,020 --> 00:41:29,660 -would have been - -1175 -00:41:29,660 --> 00:41:30,980 -very hard. - -1176 -00:41:31,460 --> 00:41:31,820 -The solution, - -1177 -00:41:31,820 --> 00:41:32,420 -like, - -1178 -00:41:32,540 --> 00:41:33,000 -even going, - -1179 -00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:33,820 -even assuming - -1180 -00:41:33,820 --> 00:41:34,700 -Lightning is there, - -1181 -00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,100 -the solution - -1182 -00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:36,780 -of having - -1183 -00:41:36,780 --> 00:41:37,540 -this negotiation - -1184 -00:41:37,540 --> 00:41:37,980 -to get the - -1185 -00:41:37,980 --> 00:41:38,440 -Vault 11, - -1186 -00:41:38,860 --> 00:41:39,360 -or even if you - -1187 -00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:39,940 -go Vault 12, - -1188 -00:41:40,020 --> 00:41:40,140 -right, - -1189 -00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:40,560 -it's kind of, - -1190 -00:41:40,580 --> 00:41:40,760 -I mean, - -1191 -00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:41,260 -it's kind of the same. - -1192 -00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:43,420 -You need to get - -1193 -00:41:43,420 --> 00:41:44,220 -a payment request - -1194 -00:41:44,220 --> 00:41:45,680 -in some way - -1195 -00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:46,820 -and then send it - -1196 -00:41:46,820 --> 00:41:47,340 -and then send it - -1197 -00:41:47,340 --> 00:41:47,780 -pretty much. - -1198 -00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:48,420 -Like, - -1199 -00:41:49,020 --> 00:41:49,920 -there is a lot - -1200 -00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:50,480 -of complexity - -1201 -00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:51,320 -and there is a lot - -1202 -00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:52,340 -of interactivity there. - -1203 -00:41:52,980 --> 00:41:53,560 -And there's a lot - -1204 -00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:54,580 -of stuff that can go wrong. - -1205 -00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:55,600 -And there's a lot - -1206 -00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:56,280 -of stuff that can go, - -1207 -00:41:56,340 --> 00:41:56,760 -absolutely. - -1208 -00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:57,700 -And we know - -1209 -00:41:57,700 --> 00:41:57,980 -that, - -1210 -00:41:57,980 --> 00:41:58,320 -that, - -1211 -00:41:58,320 --> 00:41:58,940 -that, - -1212 -00:41:58,940 --> 00:41:59,360 -that, - -1213 -00:41:59,360 --> 00:41:59,380 -that, - -1214 -00:41:59,380 --> 00:41:59,400 -that, - -1215 -00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:00,600 -you go back - -1216 -00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:00,980 -and forth - -1217 -00:42:00,980 --> 00:42:01,800 -like 15 times - -1218 -00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:02,540 -with this handshake. - -1219 -00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:03,240 -If any, - -1220 -00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:03,520 -every, - -1221 -00:42:03,660 --> 00:42:04,540 -any single connection - -1222 -00:42:04,540 --> 00:42:05,660 -or any peer drops, - -1223 -00:42:05,820 --> 00:42:06,440 -then it's like, - -1224 -00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:06,980 -you have to start - -1225 -00:42:06,980 --> 00:42:07,480 -all over again. - -1226 -00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:07,820 -Everything. - -1227 -00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:09,040 -And that state - -1228 -00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:10,000 -that you need to control - -1229 -00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:10,660 -and you need to, - -1230 -00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:10,940 -okay, - -1231 -00:42:10,940 --> 00:42:11,940 -how do I gracefully - -1232 -00:42:11,940 --> 00:42:12,600 -handle this error? - -1233 -00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:13,760 -It, - -1234 -00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:14,760 -it is a lot - -1235 -00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:15,360 -of complexity. - -1236 -00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:16,880 -And, - -1237 -00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:17,700 -and now, - -1238 -00:42:17,820 --> 00:42:18,860 -we just reached - -1239 -00:42:18,860 --> 00:42:19,540 -for the tool - -1240 -00:42:19,540 --> 00:42:20,680 -and the tool - -1241 -00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:21,220 -was there. - -1242 -00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:22,960 -And it's so simple. - -1243 -00:42:23,140 --> 00:42:24,440 -It literally is, - -1244 -00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:24,680 -I think, - -1245 -00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:25,780 -it's just a payment header. - -1246 -00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:26,360 -Here, - -1247 -00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:27,000 -here it is. - -1248 -00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:27,240 -It, - -1249 -00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:28,760 -it is so simple. - -1250 -00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:29,600 -Yes, - -1251 -00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:30,860 -you don't send - -1252 -00:42:30,860 --> 00:42:31,740 -one Bitcoin there. - -1253 -00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:33,500 -It's not for that. - -1254 -00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:34,360 -Send, - -1255 -00:42:34,580 --> 00:42:34,900 -you know, - -1256 -00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:36,140 -a thousand sats - -1257 -00:42:36,140 --> 00:42:36,980 -or one sat - -1258 -00:42:36,980 --> 00:42:37,460 -or whatever. - -1259 -00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:38,180 -Uh, - -1260 -00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:39,620 -and everyone - -1261 -00:42:39,620 --> 00:42:40,540 -has to model the risk - -1262 -00:42:40,540 --> 00:42:41,320 -in whatever way - -1263 -00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:41,540 -they, - -1264 -00:42:41,540 --> 00:42:42,160 -they see fit. - -1265 -00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:43,460 -And people absolutely can. - -1266 -00:42:43,780 --> 00:42:44,920 -People absolutely can - -1267 -00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:46,000 -figure this out - -1268 -00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:46,760 -and model the risk - -1269 -00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:47,240 -as you say - -1270 -00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:47,660 -and so on. - -1271 -00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:47,860 -That's, - -1272 -00:42:47,860 --> 00:42:48,700 -that's why people - -1273 -00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:49,400 -are okay - -1274 -00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:50,560 -with running around - -1275 -00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:50,960 -with money - -1276 -00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:51,460 -in their pocket. - -1277 -00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:52,680 -And they're just - -1278 -00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:53,240 -going to take - -1279 -00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:53,920 -whatever they need - -1280 -00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:54,400 -for the day - -1281 -00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:54,900 -or for the next - -1282 -00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:55,600 -two or three days - -1283 -00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:56,000 -or whatever. - -1284 -00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:56,740 -It's like, - -1285 -00:42:56,820 --> 00:42:57,480 -it's not a, - -1286 -00:42:58,020 --> 00:42:58,640 -I feel like we, - -1287 -00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:00,780 -people, - -1288 -00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:01,500 -you know, - -1289 -00:43:01,900 --> 00:43:03,240 -contrary to popular belief, - -1290 -00:43:03,380 --> 00:43:03,520 -like, - -1291 -00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,120 -people are capable, - -1292 -00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:05,660 -I think, - -1293 -00:43:05,860 --> 00:43:07,980 -to figure this out. - -1294 -00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:08,700 -Just, - -1295 -00:43:08,780 --> 00:43:09,720 -just allow them to, - -1296 -00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:11,460 -allow them, - -1297 -00:43:11,580 --> 00:43:12,240 -give them the tools - -1298 -00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:13,020 -and allow them, - -1299 -00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:13,840 -give them space - -1300 -00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:14,520 -and time to learn - -1301 -00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:15,320 -and figure it out. - -1302 -00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:15,580 -Yeah, - -1303 -00:43:15,580 --> 00:43:15,740 -yeah, - -1304 -00:43:15,740 --> 00:43:16,080 -absolutely. - -1305 -00:43:16,660 --> 00:43:17,060 -One, - -1306 -00:43:17,180 --> 00:43:17,940 -one more thing, - -1307 -00:43:17,980 --> 00:43:18,840 -since we already - -1308 -00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:19,720 -opened the topic. - -1309 -00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:20,300 -The, - -1310 -00:43:20,380 --> 00:43:21,180 -yesterday, - -1311 -00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:22,180 -last night, - -1312 -00:43:22,180 --> 00:43:23,160 -Kali, - -1313 -00:43:23,340 --> 00:43:24,180 -which is to me - -1314 -00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:25,340 -one of the coolest - -1315 -00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:25,840 -things, - -1316 -00:43:25,940 --> 00:43:26,440 -not subs, - -1317 -00:43:27,180 --> 00:43:28,420 -Kali said something - -1318 -00:43:28,420 --> 00:43:28,740 -like, - -1319 -00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:29,860 -it's really cool - -1320 -00:43:29,860 --> 00:43:31,220 -that you can, - -1321 -00:43:31,780 --> 00:43:32,600 -you know the sub - -1322 -00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:33,340 -is there - -1323 -00:43:33,340 --> 00:43:34,560 -without waiting - -1324 -00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,220 -for the lightning node - -1325 -00:43:36,220 --> 00:43:36,800 -to respond, - -1326 -00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:37,920 -to publish the event - -1327 -00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:38,640 -with the sub receive. - -1328 -00:43:38,980 --> 00:43:39,560 -So the way - -1329 -00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:40,440 -subs work, - -1330 -00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:41,900 -like lightning subs, - -1331 -00:43:42,020 --> 00:43:42,260 -the way, - -1332 -00:43:42,340 --> 00:43:43,240 -the way they work is, - -1333 -00:43:43,340 --> 00:43:44,460 -you get, - -1334 -00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:45,020 -you talk, - -1335 -00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:45,360 -you say, - -1336 -00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:46,280 -I want to sub Gigi, - -1337 -00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:47,180 -I look at, - -1338 -00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:47,400 -okay, - -1339 -00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:48,400 -what he's Luke 16, - -1340 -00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:49,140 -he's LN URL - -1341 -00:43:49,140 --> 00:43:49,720 -or whatever, - -1342 -00:43:50,420 --> 00:43:51,320 -I talk to that, - -1343 -00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:52,040 -I get, - -1344 -00:43:52,180 --> 00:43:53,420 -after some negotiation, - -1345 -00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:54,000 -I get, - -1346 -00:43:54,140 --> 00:43:54,800 -I get a, - -1347 -00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,340 -a payment request. - -1348 -00:43:56,500 --> 00:43:57,080 -Which makes them - -1349 -00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:57,920 -even more trustless. - -1350 -00:43:58,520 --> 00:43:59,560 -You don't have to trust. - -1351 -00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:00,480 -That was my point. - -1352 -00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:00,640 -Yeah. - -1353 -00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,280 -That was exactly my point. - -1354 -00:44:02,380 --> 00:44:03,360 -You don't have to trust - -1355 -00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,220 -whoever is signing - -1356 -00:44:04,220 --> 00:44:04,920 -the message that you, - -1357 -00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:05,320 -you got, - -1358 -00:44:05,380 --> 00:44:06,180 -that's up in those things. - -1359 -00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:06,560 -And, - -1360 -00:44:06,660 --> 00:44:08,100 -and actually handling, - -1361 -00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,020 -handling, - -1362 -00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:11,800 -the validation - -1363 -00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,500 -of lightning subs, - -1364 -00:44:14,220 --> 00:44:14,560 -it's, - -1365 -00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:15,300 -it's really hard. - -1366 -00:44:15,380 --> 00:44:15,520 -Like, - -1367 -00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:16,380 -if you read the spec, - -1368 -00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,660 -there are so many steps. - -1369 -00:44:17,660 --> 00:44:19,060 -And the, - -1370 -00:44:19,060 --> 00:44:19,580 -the, - -1371 -00:44:19,580 --> 00:44:21,700 -the signer of the SAP - -1372 -00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:23,240 -is not the recipient, - -1373 -00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:25,040 -it's not the sender. - -1374 -00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:25,740 -It's Albi. - -1375 -00:44:25,860 --> 00:44:26,740 -It's Albi. - -1376 -00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,040 -It's either Albi - -1377 -00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:28,880 -or Primal - -1378 -00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:30,220 -or Wallis of Satoshi. - -1379 -00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:30,760 -That's it. - -1380 -00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:32,720 -That's all we have. - -1381 -00:44:33,660 --> 00:44:34,180 -And, - -1382 -00:44:34,220 --> 00:44:34,900 -and it's so weird. - -1383 -00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:35,680 -And I actually, - -1384 -00:44:36,020 --> 00:44:36,480 -um, - -1385 -00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:37,660 -re-implemented, - -1386 -00:44:37,820 --> 00:44:38,640 -I refactored, - -1387 -00:44:38,660 --> 00:44:39,180 -um, - -1388 -00:44:39,980 --> 00:44:40,700 -SAPs on, - -1389 -00:44:40,740 --> 00:44:41,860 -on Ola's yesterday. - -1390 -00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:43,100 -And, - -1391 -00:44:43,180 --> 00:44:44,040 -and I had a bag - -1392 -00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,260 -and the, - -1393 -00:44:46,260 --> 00:44:46,700 -um, - -1394 -00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:47,660 -the avatar, - -1395 -00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:47,980 -the, - -1396 -00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:48,180 -the, - -1397 -00:44:48,180 --> 00:44:48,540 -the, - -1398 -00:44:48,540 --> 00:44:49,860 -the icon that it was showing - -1399 -00:44:49,860 --> 00:44:51,380 -as the sender of the SAP - -1400 -00:44:51,380 --> 00:44:52,560 -was the, - -1401 -00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:53,100 -the sapper. - -1402 -00:44:53,260 --> 00:44:55,980 -So I was seeing a bunch of Albi icons. - -1403 -00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:56,920 -Okay. - -1404 -00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:58,080 -Because it was, - -1405 -00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:59,000 -I was getting the wrong, - -1406 -00:44:59,220 --> 00:45:00,460 -because I was using the pub key - -1407 -00:45:00,460 --> 00:45:02,360 -of the person publishing the SAP receipt, - -1408 -00:45:02,580 --> 00:45:03,420 -which is wrong. - -1409 -00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:04,220 -Um, - -1410 -00:45:04,740 --> 00:45:06,180 -and you're not waiting, - -1411 -00:45:06,260 --> 00:45:07,180 -like when you send the SAP, - -1412 -00:45:07,220 --> 00:45:08,040 -you send the payment - -1413 -00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,380 -and then you just wait - -1414 -00:45:09,380 --> 00:45:11,080 -to see if you get a SAP receipt. - -1415 -00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,540 -And with this is, - -1416 -00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,000 -if you publish the SAP, - -1417 -00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:16,260 -that is the SAP receipt. - -1418 -00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:18,440 -Like the publishing of the money is, - -1419 -00:45:18,460 --> 00:45:18,800 -it's better. - -1420 -00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:19,200 -It's better. - -1421 -00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:19,940 -And that's, - -1422 -00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:20,300 -that's, - -1423 -00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,020 -I think the, - -1424 -00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:23,940 -the, - -1425 -00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:24,640 -again, - -1426 -00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:25,460 -the issue is, - -1427 -00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:26,540 -the issue is that - -1428 -00:45:26,540 --> 00:45:29,000 -all you have is data - -1429 -00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,240 -and the manipulation of data. - -1430 -00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:31,760 -And so the best you can do, - -1431 -00:45:31,820 --> 00:45:32,660 -the best we can do, - -1432 -00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:33,700 -and I think we should do it - -1433 -00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:35,160 -everywhere we can, - -1434 -00:45:35,220 --> 00:45:35,600 -basically. - -1435 -00:45:35,820 --> 00:45:36,380 -It's like, - -1436 -00:45:36,380 --> 00:45:38,120 -you can simulate ownership, - -1437 -00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:38,640 -so to speak. - -1438 -00:45:38,740 --> 00:45:40,260 -You can simulate bearer tokens - -1439 -00:45:40,260 --> 00:45:41,840 -with public key cryptography. - -1440 -00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:42,860 -But again, - -1441 -00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:43,620 -that implies, - -1442 -00:45:43,740 --> 00:45:45,040 -that implies that you are actually - -1443 -00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:45,840 -in control of the key. - -1444 -00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:46,320 -Otherwise, - -1445 -00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:47,120 -everything falls out, - -1446 -00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:48,080 -falls out the window. - -1447 -00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:49,160 -Then we're back to like Facebook - -1448 -00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:49,760 -and Twitter and whatever. - -1449 -00:45:50,620 --> 00:45:50,920 -And so, - -1450 -00:45:50,980 --> 00:45:51,160 -so, - -1451 -00:45:51,220 --> 00:45:51,600 -so if, - -1452 -00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:52,080 -if, - -1453 -00:45:52,740 --> 00:45:53,700 -if we manage to, - -1454 -00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:54,740 -to build this new world - -1455 -00:45:54,740 --> 00:45:55,740 -and we build tools - -1456 -00:45:55,740 --> 00:45:56,420 -that make it easier - -1457 -00:45:56,420 --> 00:45:57,040 -to actually, - -1458 -00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:57,460 -you know, - -1459 -00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:58,260 -um, - -1460 -00:45:58,480 --> 00:45:58,780 -uh, - -1461 -00:45:58,780 --> 00:45:59,840 -hold your key securely - -1462 -00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:00,160 -and so on. - -1463 -00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:00,940 -And I think we're getting there. - -1464 -00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:01,280 -Like I, - -1465 -00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:01,940 -I love Amber, - -1466 -00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:02,520 -for example. - -1467 -00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:03,020 -Oh yeah. - -1468 -00:46:03,060 --> 00:46:03,440 -It's like, - -1469 -00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:03,820 -you know, - -1470 -00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:04,260 -I'm, - -1471 -00:46:04,460 --> 00:46:06,380 -the UX of Amber is, - -1472 -00:46:06,540 --> 00:46:07,040 -it's great. - -1473 -00:46:07,420 --> 00:46:08,140 -Absolutely incredible. - -1474 -00:46:08,140 --> 00:46:08,260 -You actually, - -1475 -00:46:08,420 --> 00:46:09,480 -you have a secure enclave - -1476 -00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:10,880 -and your key is only in there - -1477 -00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:11,440 -and you have a sign. - -1478 -00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:11,620 -It's, - -1479 -00:46:11,620 --> 00:46:12,160 -it's like a, - -1480 -00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:13,560 -it's like for people - -1481 -00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:14,580 -who don't know what Amber is, - -1482 -00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:14,960 -uh, - -1483 -00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:15,260 -it's, - -1484 -00:46:15,260 --> 00:46:15,520 -it's, - -1485 -00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:16,680 -it's for iOS people, - -1486 -00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:17,520 -for iOS people, - -1487 -00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:18,660 -like my Apple fanboys. - -1488 -00:46:18,820 --> 00:46:19,320 -Oh my Lord. - -1489 -00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:20,840 -It's, - -1490 -00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:21,780 -it's like a hardware wallet - -1491 -00:46:21,780 --> 00:46:22,720 -in your phone. - -1492 -00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:23,600 -It's like, - -1493 -00:46:23,660 --> 00:46:25,100 -the hardware is in your phone. - -1494 -00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:25,600 -You know? - -1495 -00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:25,960 -So, - -1496 -00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:27,100 -kind of. - -1497 -00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:27,920 -Any case, - -1498 -00:46:27,980 --> 00:46:28,380 -he's going to hate me - -1499 -00:46:28,380 --> 00:46:28,900 -for saying this. - -1500 -00:46:29,140 --> 00:46:29,540 -But anyway, - -1501 -00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:30,960 -that's how you can think about it. - -1502 -00:46:30,980 --> 00:46:31,640 -He will never listen to this anyway. - -1503 -00:46:31,860 --> 00:46:32,300 -Oh no, - -1504 -00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:33,040 -like he, - -1505 -00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:33,340 -he, - -1506 -00:46:33,340 --> 00:46:34,860 -he does his own boring thing - -1507 -00:46:34,860 --> 00:46:35,840 -where he reads changelogs - -1508 -00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:36,500 -for three hours - -1509 -00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:37,460 -and he doesn't listen - -1510 -00:46:37,460 --> 00:46:38,200 -to anything else. - -1511 -00:46:40,340 --> 00:46:41,020 -That's fine. - -1512 -00:46:42,220 --> 00:46:42,360 -But, - -1513 -00:46:42,420 --> 00:46:42,900 -but anyway, - -1514 -00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:43,220 -it's, - -1515 -00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:43,500 -it's, - -1516 -00:46:43,740 --> 00:46:44,080 -it's, - -1517 -00:46:44,180 --> 00:46:45,600 -if you can, - -1518 -00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,000 -if you can do a better thing, - -1519 -00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:50,360 -you should do a better thing - -1520 -00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:51,680 -because everything else - -1521 -00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,460 -implies keeping track of state, - -1522 -00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:54,800 -implies keeping track, - -1523 -00:46:54,860 --> 00:46:55,380 -in the worst case, - -1524 -00:46:55,420 --> 00:46:56,980 -of like a quasi global state, - -1525 -00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:58,020 -all those kind of things. - -1526 -00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,040 -It implies negotiation. - -1527 -00:46:59,420 --> 00:46:59,740 -Authority. - -1528 -00:47:00,100 --> 00:47:01,140 -You fall back to, - -1529 -00:47:01,180 --> 00:47:02,200 -to credit and authority - -1530 -00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:02,800 -in some sense. - -1531 -00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,140 -And so if you can simulate, - -1532 -00:47:05,140 --> 00:47:06,120 -if you, - -1533 -00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:06,920 -if you can't do better, - -1534 -00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:07,440 -do better. - -1535 -00:47:08,860 --> 00:47:09,440 -That's it. - -1536 -00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:10,300 -So, - -1537 -00:47:10,380 --> 00:47:11,940 -so when, - -1538 -00:47:12,020 --> 00:47:12,520 -um, - -1539 -00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:13,240 -during, - -1540 -00:47:13,380 --> 00:47:13,680 -um, - -1541 -00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:15,480 -during Miami, - -1542 -00:47:16,060 --> 00:47:17,120 -the Miami conference, - -1543 -00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:17,760 -the, - -1544 -00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:18,920 -they had like the, - -1545 -00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:19,940 -the, - -1546 -00:47:19,940 --> 00:47:21,580 -the big screens with, - -1547 -00:47:21,740 --> 00:47:22,120 -um, - -1548 -00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:23,340 -in the expo area - -1549 -00:47:23,340 --> 00:47:24,780 -and they were showing sub life. - -1550 -00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:25,020 -Yeah. - -1551 -00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:29,120 -And someone started publishing - -1552 -00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,580 -a bunch of fake, - -1553 -00:47:30,580 --> 00:47:31,200 -uh, - -1554 -00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:31,540 -subs, - -1555 -00:47:31,540 --> 00:47:32,540 -um, - -1556 -00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:33,420 -which are, - -1557 -00:47:33,420 --> 00:47:36,380 -it's really hard to identify. - -1558 -00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:36,900 -Yeah. - -1559 -00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:37,860 -It's really, - -1560 -00:47:38,060 --> 00:47:39,080 -really fucking hard. - -1561 -00:47:39,340 --> 00:47:40,040 -I mean, - -1562 -00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:41,040 -it's kind of impossible - -1563 -00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:41,540 -to identify. - -1564 -00:47:41,540 --> 00:47:43,200 -Did Carmen do a sap of like, - -1565 -00:47:43,300 --> 00:47:43,560 -uh, - -1566 -00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,340 -more than 21 million a ton or something? - -1567 -00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:47,780 -That tells you that something's wrong. - -1568 -00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,040 -It's the famous inflation thing. - -1569 -00:47:51,460 --> 00:47:51,860 -Uh, - -1570 -00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,360 -the 2010 inflation back. - -1571 -00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:54,400 -Um, - -1572 -00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:55,600 -the, - -1573 -00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:56,120 -um, - -1574 -00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,140 -so what was my solution? - -1575 -00:47:58,460 --> 00:47:58,660 -Like, - -1576 -00:47:58,660 --> 00:47:59,320 -because I was, - -1577 -00:47:59,380 --> 00:48:00,000 -I was in the, - -1578 -00:48:00,220 --> 00:48:01,100 -I was at the conference. - -1579 -00:48:01,100 --> 00:48:01,760 -I didn't have, - -1580 -00:48:01,980 --> 00:48:02,240 -I mean, - -1581 -00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:02,520 -I, - -1582 -00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:05,060 -you really cannot, - -1583 -00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:06,560 -um, - -1584 -00:48:07,020 --> 00:48:08,100 -demonstrate that, - -1585 -00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,040 -that the data is, - -1586 -00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:09,780 -that the, - -1587 -00:48:09,780 --> 00:48:10,920 -that the sap is real - -1588 -00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:11,520 -in, - -1589 -00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:11,820 -in, - -1590 -00:48:11,820 --> 00:48:12,460 -in lightning subs. - -1591 -00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:13,440 -Um, - -1592 -00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:14,760 -but, - -1593 -00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:15,220 -uh, - -1594 -00:48:15,260 --> 00:48:15,940 -what was my solution? - -1595 -00:48:16,180 --> 00:48:16,400 -Like, - -1596 -00:48:16,460 --> 00:48:17,520 -my solution was literally - -1597 -00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:18,740 -to just white list - -1598 -00:48:18,740 --> 00:48:20,360 -a bunch of supper pockets. - -1599 -00:48:20,540 --> 00:48:21,120 -I white listed. - -1600 -00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:21,980 -You became the authority. - -1601 -00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:23,040 -Yeah, - -1602 -00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:23,220 -you, - -1603 -00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:23,400 -my, - -1604 -00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:23,600 -my, - -1605 -00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:23,980 -yes. - -1606 -00:48:24,140 --> 00:48:24,300 -Yeah, - -1607 -00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:24,520 -yeah. - -1608 -00:48:24,580 --> 00:48:25,440 -You're the authority - -1609 -00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:26,040 -and you gave, - -1610 -00:48:26,140 --> 00:48:26,540 -I said, - -1611 -00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:26,820 -okay, - -1612 -00:48:27,180 --> 00:48:28,220 -so I'll be real. - -1613 -00:48:28,380 --> 00:48:29,440 -Wallet of Satoshi is real. - -1614 -00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:30,760 -So what happened? - -1615 -00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,220 -The self-custodial lining, - -1616 -00:48:33,540 --> 00:48:34,080 -like the people - -1617 -00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:35,140 -that were doing it right - -1618 -00:48:35,140 --> 00:48:36,200 -were not showing up - -1619 -00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:36,580 -on sublet. - -1620 -00:48:36,720 --> 00:48:38,020 -That's the issue. - -1621 -00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:38,340 -You, - -1622 -00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:39,340 -you turned yourself - -1623 -00:48:39,340 --> 00:48:39,740 -into, - -1624 -00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,400 -into the, - -1625 -00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:41,960 -the, - -1626 -00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:43,120 -the BIS basically. - -1627 -00:48:43,220 --> 00:48:43,380 -But, - -1628 -00:48:43,420 --> 00:48:45,080 -but I didn't have a way - -1629 -00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,060 -of saying - -1630 -00:48:46,060 --> 00:48:47,000 -this, - -1631 -00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,520 -this is a real sap. - -1632 -00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:49,480 -Even within - -1633 -00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:50,220 -Wave of Trust - -1634 -00:48:50,220 --> 00:48:51,000 -or whatever, - -1635 -00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:51,360 -like, - -1636 -00:48:51,820 --> 00:48:53,840 -there is no way. - -1637 -00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:54,840 -Um, - -1638 -00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:56,220 -yeah, - -1639 -00:48:56,260 --> 00:48:56,740 -those are actually - -1640 -00:48:56,740 --> 00:48:57,260 -hard problems. - -1641 -00:48:57,260 --> 00:48:57,860 -Yes. - -1642 -00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:58,500 -I mean, - -1643 -00:48:58,640 --> 00:48:59,840 -that one in particular - -1644 -00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:00,520 -is unsoldable. - -1645 -00:49:00,980 --> 00:49:01,120 -Yeah. - -1646 -00:49:03,700 --> 00:49:04,900 -So why do you think, - -1647 -00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:05,700 -why do you think - -1648 -00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:06,940 -people hate nuts ups so much? - -1649 -00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,020 -I think, - -1650 -00:49:09,020 --> 00:49:09,760 -I think most people - -1651 -00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:10,280 -love them. - -1652 -00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:11,680 -It's just a few people. - -1653 -00:49:12,020 --> 00:49:12,240 -I mean, - -1654 -00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:13,020 -some loud people. - -1655 -00:49:13,260 --> 00:49:13,680 -Some very, - -1656 -00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:15,000 -some very loud people. - -1657 -00:49:15,300 --> 00:49:15,880 -It's, - -1658 -00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:16,400 -yeah, - -1659 -00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,400 -I think, - -1660 -00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:19,240 -I think it's a, - -1661 -00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:20,460 -it's a natural evolution - -1662 -00:49:20,460 --> 00:49:21,220 -in some sense - -1663 -00:49:21,220 --> 00:49:22,360 -of all the stuff - -1664 -00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:23,160 -that was built out - -1665 -00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:23,700 -so far. - -1666 -00:49:23,860 --> 00:49:24,780 -Because in the end, - -1667 -00:49:24,780 --> 00:49:25,280 -it's like, - -1668 -00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:25,840 -what do you want - -1669 -00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:26,440 -to have happen? - -1670 -00:49:26,980 --> 00:49:27,360 -And I think - -1671 -00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:27,920 -what is the, - -1672 -00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:29,300 -what's one of the - -1673 -00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:30,480 -superpowers - -1674 -00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:31,480 -of any - -1675 -00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:32,680 -cryptographic system - -1676 -00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:33,480 -in terms of - -1677 -00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:34,280 -anything that uses - -1678 -00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:35,200 -cryptographic identities - -1679 -00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:36,100 -is like, - -1680 -00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:37,540 -you one click - -1681 -00:49:37,540 --> 00:49:38,380 -create an account. - -1682 -00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:39,700 -It's, - -1683 -00:49:39,860 --> 00:49:40,860 -that's it. - -1684 -00:49:41,260 --> 00:49:41,900 -You generate, - -1685 -00:49:42,020 --> 00:49:42,740 -all you have to do - -1686 -00:49:42,740 --> 00:49:43,440 -is generate a key. - -1687 -00:49:43,580 --> 00:49:43,820 -And again, - -1688 -00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:44,940 -like I spoke about this - -1689 -00:49:44,940 --> 00:49:45,920 -a million times - -1690 -00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:46,780 -from the Bitcoin side. - -1691 -00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:47,720 -The power of Bitcoin - -1692 -00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:48,160 -is like, - -1693 -00:49:48,980 --> 00:49:50,060 -you can lock yourself - -1694 -00:49:50,060 --> 00:49:50,960 -into a bathroom, - -1695 -00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:52,560 -you can flip a coin - -1696 -00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:53,320 -a couple times - -1697 -00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,520 -and you walk out - -1698 -00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:55,300 -with 12 words - -1699 -00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:56,160 -and you can, - -1700 -00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:56,940 -that's it. - -1701 -00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:57,840 -You're a Bitcoiner, - -1702 -00:49:57,940 --> 00:49:58,200 -basically. - -1703 -00:49:58,380 --> 00:49:59,280 -You can receive money, - -1704 -00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:00,560 -you can spend money, - -1705 -00:50:00,620 --> 00:50:01,160 -all the things, - -1706 -00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:01,680 -and so on. - -1707 -00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:02,720 -And you don't, - -1708 -00:50:03,060 --> 00:50:04,000 -like in some sense, - -1709 -00:50:04,060 --> 00:50:04,680 -you wouldn't even need - -1710 -00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:05,060 -a computer. - -1711 -00:50:05,220 --> 00:50:06,000 -You wouldn't even need, - -1712 -00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,600 -like you only need - -1713 -00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:09,500 -a way to do math - -1714 -00:50:09,500 --> 00:50:10,380 -and you need - -1715 -00:50:10,380 --> 00:50:12,320 -some communication channels - -1716 -00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:13,100 -to someone. - -1717 -00:50:13,540 --> 00:50:14,040 -But you could be - -1718 -00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:14,500 -in prison, - -1719 -00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:15,080 -theoretically, - -1720 -00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:15,540 -you know, - -1721 -00:50:15,580 --> 00:50:16,760 -and you could basically, - -1722 -00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:17,320 -again, - -1723 -00:50:17,420 --> 00:50:18,320 -with carrier pigeons, - -1724 -00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:20,860 -send the data packets - -1725 -00:50:20,860 --> 00:50:21,700 -in and out - -1726 -00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:22,080 -and all those - -1727 -00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:22,820 -kind of things. - -1728 -00:50:23,180 --> 00:50:24,500 -And through the power - -1729 -00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:26,120 -of public key cryptography, - -1730 -00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,200 -all this stuff works. - -1731 -00:50:28,420 --> 00:50:29,860 -And that's insanely powerful. - -1732 -00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:31,440 -And I mean, - -1733 -00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:32,080 -Bitcoin shows - -1734 -00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,120 -how powerful it is. - -1735 -00:50:33,180 --> 00:50:34,060 -And we actually know - -1736 -00:50:34,060 --> 00:50:37,360 -people like Charlie, - -1737 -00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:37,820 -for example, - -1738 -00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:38,480 -to name drop him. - -1739 -00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:40,840 -He had to leave Venezuela - -1740 -00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,000 -with his family and so on - -1741 -00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,320 -and Bitcoin saved his life. - -1742 -00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:44,380 -And he's one of the guys - -1743 -00:50:44,380 --> 00:50:45,440 -who actually did this. - -1744 -00:50:45,580 --> 00:50:46,420 -12 words in your head, - -1745 -00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:47,340 -cross the border. - -1746 -00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:48,040 -No one knows - -1747 -00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:49,360 -that you have anything - -1748 -00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:49,960 -or any wealth - -1749 -00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:50,540 -and it literally - -1750 -00:50:50,540 --> 00:50:51,280 -saved his life - -1751 -00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:51,900 -and he was able - -1752 -00:50:51,900 --> 00:50:53,160 -to build up - -1753 -00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:54,060 -another existence - -1754 -00:50:54,060 --> 00:50:55,180 -in another country - -1755 -00:50:55,180 --> 00:50:55,660 -and so on. - -1756 -00:50:55,860 --> 00:50:55,940 -Yeah, - -1757 -00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:56,540 -there was a, - -1758 -00:50:56,660 --> 00:50:57,400 -there was a, - -1759 -00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:58,260 -sorry to interrupt, - -1760 -00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,060 -but in Nashville, - -1761 -00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:01,040 -there was a, - -1762 -00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:02,400 -at the HRF event, - -1763 -00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:04,060 -there was this person - -1764 -00:51:04,060 --> 00:51:05,020 -that was supposed - -1765 -00:51:05,020 --> 00:51:05,520 -to come - -1766 -00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:06,540 -but couldn't come - -1767 -00:51:06,540 --> 00:51:07,680 -because of the, - -1768 -00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,180 -the situation - -1769 -00:51:11,180 --> 00:51:12,680 -in South Lebanon. - -1770 -00:51:14,460 --> 00:51:15,360 -And he mentioned - -1771 -00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:16,640 -that it was the second time - -1772 -00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:17,640 -that this had happened - -1773 -00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:18,080 -to him - -1774 -00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,100 -where he has to overnight - -1775 -00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:20,820 -all of a sudden - -1776 -00:51:20,820 --> 00:51:22,420 -just leave his hometown - -1777 -00:51:22,420 --> 00:51:23,220 -with his family - -1778 -00:51:23,220 --> 00:51:24,040 -in the middle of the night. - -1779 -00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:25,120 -And apparently - -1780 -00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:25,840 -that had happened - -1781 -00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:26,260 -in whatever, - -1782 -00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:27,920 -like 2013 - -1783 -00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:28,740 -or something like that. - -1784 -00:51:29,780 --> 00:51:31,580 -And he was mentioning - -1785 -00:51:31,580 --> 00:51:32,720 -how bad the situation - -1786 -00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:33,620 -had been - -1787 -00:51:33,620 --> 00:51:35,240 -in the last couple of weeks. - -1788 -00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:36,740 -He was in the north - -1789 -00:51:36,740 --> 00:51:37,360 -of Lebanon - -1790 -00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:37,920 -when he was, - -1791 -00:51:38,100 --> 00:51:39,800 -he remotely called in. - -1792 -00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,960 -and he was mentioning - -1793 -00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,920 -how this time - -1794 -00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,700 -it was really bad - -1795 -00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:50,300 -but it was incredibly better - -1796 -00:51:50,300 --> 00:51:51,760 -because he had - -1797 -00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:52,720 -all his money in Bitcoin. - -1798 -00:51:53,580 --> 00:51:54,180 -So he didn't, - -1799 -00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:55,480 -I mean, - -1800 -00:51:55,540 --> 00:51:55,820 -he was. - -1801 -00:51:55,820 --> 00:51:56,740 -One worry less. - -1802 -00:51:57,140 --> 00:51:57,440 -One, - -1803 -00:51:57,580 --> 00:51:58,800 -a very important worry. - -1804 -00:51:58,900 --> 00:51:59,740 -Like how do you provide - -1805 -00:51:59,740 --> 00:52:00,460 -it for your family - -1806 -00:52:00,460 --> 00:52:01,480 -when you don't have any money? - -1807 -00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,540 -It is a massive improvement. - -1808 -00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:05,580 -This idea, - -1809 -00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:06,240 -this ability - -1810 -00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:07,140 -of just saying, - -1811 -00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:08,320 -just go. - -1812 -00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:08,740 -I, - -1813 -00:52:08,740 --> 00:52:09,000 -I, - -1814 -00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:09,500 -I, - -1815 -00:52:09,500 --> 00:52:09,800 -I, - -1816 -00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:10,020 -I, - -1817 -00:52:10,020 --> 00:52:10,340 -I, - -1818 -00:52:10,340 --> 00:52:11,020 -I, - -1819 -00:52:11,020 --> 00:52:12,320 -I told my, - -1820 -00:52:12,420 --> 00:52:12,820 -that's, - -1821 -00:52:12,820 --> 00:52:13,140 -that's, - -1822 -00:52:13,140 --> 00:52:13,900 -that's by the way, - -1823 -00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:14,340 -like I, - -1824 -00:52:14,340 --> 00:52:15,280 -I really hope - -1825 -00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:15,980 -that very soon - -1826 -00:52:15,980 --> 00:52:16,820 -and we're getting there - -1827 -00:52:16,820 --> 00:52:17,340 -like with, - -1828 -00:52:17,820 --> 00:52:18,600 -I mean, - -1829 -00:52:18,740 --> 00:52:20,560 -the daylight computer people - -1830 -00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:21,280 -have the right idea - -1831 -00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:21,860 -for example - -1832 -00:52:21,860 --> 00:52:23,480 -and a sex story - -1833 -00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:24,160 -is getting there - -1834 -00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:24,520 -as well - -1835 -00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:24,980 -and so on. - -1836 -00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:26,040 -But I really hope - -1837 -00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:26,600 -that in the end - -1838 -00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,100 -like if you remember - -1839 -00:52:28,100 --> 00:52:29,080 -to have 12 words - -1840 -00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:29,560 -in your head, - -1841 -00:52:29,820 --> 00:52:30,560 -you pop out, - -1842 -00:52:30,620 --> 00:52:31,680 -you pop out somewhere else, - -1843 -00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:32,520 -you get a new phone - -1844 -00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:33,380 -and you, - -1845 -00:52:33,380 --> 00:52:34,740 -you derive your, - -1846 -00:52:34,740 --> 00:52:35,600 -your industry seed - -1847 -00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:36,440 -from that for example - -1848 -00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,640 -and everything is there again. - -1849 -00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:39,680 -You have everything again. - -1850 -00:52:39,780 --> 00:52:40,460 -You have your whole - -1851 -00:52:40,460 --> 00:52:41,560 -like online identity, - -1852 -00:52:41,980 --> 00:52:42,700 -you have your whole - -1853 -00:52:42,700 --> 00:52:43,500 -like your, - -1854 -00:52:43,500 --> 00:52:43,780 -your, - -1855 -00:52:43,780 --> 00:52:44,840 -your wallet system, - -1856 -00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,000 -your ecosystem of apps, - -1857 -00:52:46,300 --> 00:52:47,020 -all your settings, - -1858 -00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:47,980 -all those kind of things. - -1859 -00:52:48,260 --> 00:52:48,740 -Like every time - -1860 -00:52:48,740 --> 00:52:49,380 -I switch phone, - -1861 -00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:49,600 -I, - -1862 -00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:50,140 -I, - -1863 -00:52:50,140 --> 00:52:50,660 -you know, - -1864 -00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:51,540 -like I just, - -1865 -00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:52,240 -I lose my mind - -1866 -00:52:52,240 --> 00:52:52,920 -for like three weeks - -1867 -00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:53,920 -because most, - -1868 -00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:55,320 -most apps, - -1869 -00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:56,200 -they, - -1870 -00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:56,980 -they, - -1871 -00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:57,860 -they don't allow you - -1872 -00:52:57,860 --> 00:52:59,720 -to easily sync - -1873 -00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:00,740 -your setup in some way. - -1874 -00:53:00,860 --> 00:53:01,080 -You know, - -1875 -00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:01,820 -like you have to start - -1876 -00:53:01,820 --> 00:53:02,300 -from scratch - -1877 -00:53:02,300 --> 00:53:04,000 -and set everything up again - -1878 -00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:05,340 -and literally start - -1879 -00:53:05,340 --> 00:53:05,780 -from scratch - -1880 -00:53:05,780 --> 00:53:06,060 -and, - -1881 -00:53:06,180 --> 00:53:06,740 -and on the, - -1882 -00:53:06,780 --> 00:53:07,560 -on the monetary side - -1883 -00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:07,900 -of course, - -1884 -00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:08,340 -like that, - -1885 -00:53:08,460 --> 00:53:09,680 -that used to be the default - -1886 -00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:10,500 -with Bitcoin, - -1887 -00:53:10,620 --> 00:53:11,260 -you absolutely don't - -1888 -00:53:11,260 --> 00:53:12,180 -have to start from scratch. - -1889 -00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:13,200 -You have 12 words in your head, - -1890 -00:53:13,220 --> 00:53:13,820 -you go somewhere else, - -1891 -00:53:14,100 --> 00:53:15,040 -everything is still there, - -1892 -00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:15,900 -everything still works - -1893 -00:53:15,900 --> 00:53:16,760 -and that's, - -1894 -00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:17,780 -that's the fucking superpower - -1895 -00:53:17,780 --> 00:53:18,660 -and I think that's why, - -1896 -00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:19,260 -why nuts apps - -1897 -00:53:19,260 --> 00:53:20,540 -are so insanely important - -1898 -00:53:20,540 --> 00:53:22,980 -because the complexity, - -1899 -00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:24,880 -like the, - -1900 -00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:26,260 -they remove - -1901 -00:53:26,260 --> 00:53:27,300 -so much complexity. - -1902 -00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:27,880 -Yeah. - -1903 -00:53:28,220 --> 00:53:28,520 -Yes, - -1904 -00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:29,300 -it's not all sunshine - -1905 -00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:29,960 -and rainbows, - -1906 -00:53:30,180 --> 00:53:31,680 -there's different trade-offs - -1907 -00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:31,960 -and solutions. - -1908 -00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:32,660 -No solutions. - -1909 -00:53:33,180 --> 00:53:33,920 -No solutions, - -1910 -00:53:34,020 --> 00:53:34,560 -only trade-offs. - -1911 -00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:35,340 -But, - -1912 -00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,160 -but it is so awesome - -1913 -00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:38,180 -that you can click a button - -1914 -00:53:38,180 --> 00:53:39,840 -and you immediately - -1915 -00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:40,620 -receive SAPs. - -1916 -00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:40,800 -Yeah. - -1917 -00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:41,720 -and I, - -1918 -00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:42,940 -I know for a fact - -1919 -00:53:42,940 --> 00:53:44,000 -that this already blew - -1920 -00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:44,920 -the minds of some people - -1921 -00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:45,720 -on the Ola site - -1922 -00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:46,700 -because they talked - -1923 -00:53:46,700 --> 00:53:47,400 -about it publicly, - -1924 -00:53:47,540 --> 00:53:47,720 -you know, - -1925 -00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:48,180 -like they, - -1926 -00:53:48,180 --> 00:53:48,280 -they, - -1927 -00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:49,800 -they posted about it - -1928 -00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:50,180 -where it's like, - -1929 -00:53:50,260 --> 00:53:50,580 -oh my God, - -1930 -00:53:50,620 --> 00:53:51,240 -what do you mean? - -1931 -00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:51,540 -Like what, - -1932 -00:53:51,580 --> 00:53:52,260 -what just happened? - -1933 -00:53:52,380 --> 00:53:53,440 -Like they immediately - -1934 -00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:54,500 -are able to get SAP - -1935 -00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:56,040 -and that's so powerful. - -1936 -00:53:56,220 --> 00:53:56,960 -Everyone who ever - -1937 -00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:58,100 -onboarded someone to Bitcoin, - -1938 -00:53:58,100 --> 00:54:00,000 -they all use Wallet of Satoshi - -1939 -00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:01,560 -because of the powerful, - -1940 -00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:01,860 -wow, - -1941 -00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:02,780 -it just works effect - -1942 -00:54:02,780 --> 00:54:04,380 -and now we have that - -1943 -00:54:04,380 --> 00:54:04,720 -with, - -1944 -00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:05,680 -you know, - -1945 -00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:06,020 -better, - -1946 -00:54:06,020 --> 00:54:09,500 -you don't have to trust - -1947 -00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:10,580 -one provider fully. - -1948 -00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:11,920 -Like you don't have to trust - -1949 -00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:12,880 -Wallet of Satoshi fully. - -1950 -00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:14,360 -I have to catch my breath. - -1951 -00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:18,640 -Going upstairs was a mistake. - -1952 -00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:22,960 -What's, - -1953 -00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:24,440 -yeah, - -1954 -00:54:24,540 --> 00:54:25,220 -to me the, - -1955 -00:54:25,220 --> 00:54:26,900 -like the, - -1956 -00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:27,660 -the Nib 60, - -1957 -00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:29,100 -the Natsuk stuff, - -1958 -00:54:29,380 --> 00:54:31,280 -it is so fucking cool. - -1959 -00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:31,920 -It, - -1960 -00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:33,360 -like when you, - -1961 -00:54:33,860 --> 00:54:35,180 -but who will run the, - -1962 -00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:35,720 -who will run the, - -1963 -00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:35,860 -I mean, - -1964 -00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:36,060 -yeah, - -1965 -00:54:36,060 --> 00:54:36,220 -yeah. - -1966 -00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:38,440 -How, - -1967 -00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:39,500 -how are we going to manage - -1968 -00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:40,300 -without state subsidies? - -1969 -00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:43,440 -What's, - -1970 -00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:44,900 -like it's super interesting - -1971 -00:54:44,900 --> 00:54:45,380 -because I, - -1972 -00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:47,500 -as I was working on this stuff, - -1973 -00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:47,840 -I, - -1974 -00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:48,080 -I, - -1975 -00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:49,900 -like I understood it conceptually - -1976 -00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:50,240 -and, - -1977 -00:54:50,300 --> 00:54:51,080 -and I'm like, - -1978 -00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:51,220 -oh, - -1979 -00:54:51,220 --> 00:54:52,480 -this is like a really cool idea. - -1980 -00:54:53,180 --> 00:54:53,540 -Um, - -1981 -00:54:53,660 --> 00:54:55,520 -and the whole reason - -1982 -00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:56,880 -why I started working on that - -1983 -00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:58,140 -is because - -1984 -00:54:58,140 --> 00:54:59,340 -of Primal. - -1985 -00:55:00,500 --> 00:55:00,900 -Like, - -1986 -00:55:01,020 --> 00:55:02,420 -I really like the flow - -1987 -00:55:02,420 --> 00:55:03,260 -of Primal - -1988 -00:55:03,260 --> 00:55:04,420 -of where you create the account - -1989 -00:55:04,420 --> 00:55:05,060 -and you do click, - -1990 -00:55:05,060 --> 00:55:05,300 -click, - -1991 -00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:05,620 -click, - -1992 -00:55:05,620 --> 00:55:07,000 -like KYC, - -1993 -00:55:07,100 --> 00:55:07,280 -click, - -1994 -00:55:07,340 --> 00:55:07,440 -click, - -1995 -00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:07,500 -click, - -1996 -00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:07,640 -click, - -1997 -00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,580 -which, - -1998 -00:55:10,700 --> 00:55:11,200 -you know, - -1999 -00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:11,920 -all, - -2000 -00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:12,760 -all the love because - -2001 -00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:13,300 -you, - -2002 -00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:14,120 -it's, - -2003 -00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:15,000 -it's like you said, - -2004 -00:55:15,060 --> 00:55:15,960 -it's like you said for, - -2005 -00:55:16,180 --> 00:55:16,860 -I don't know what you, - -2006 -00:55:16,900 --> 00:55:17,580 -what you mentioned last time, - -2007 -00:55:17,620 --> 00:55:18,240 -the stuff you looked at, - -2008 -00:55:18,300 --> 00:55:19,860 -it's as good as it can be. - -2009 -00:55:19,940 --> 00:55:21,360 -The flow is as good - -2010 -00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:22,100 -as it can be - -2011 -00:55:22,100 --> 00:55:22,980 -if you're forced - -2012 -00:55:22,980 --> 00:55:23,720 -to do KYC. - -2013 -00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:24,280 -Yes, - -2014 -00:55:24,540 --> 00:55:25,440 -if you're forced - -2015 -00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:26,020 -to do KYC, - -2016 -00:55:26,180 --> 00:55:27,220 -it is as good - -2017 -00:55:27,220 --> 00:55:28,000 -as it can get, - -2018 -00:55:28,340 --> 00:55:28,980 -but it, - -2019 -00:55:28,980 --> 00:55:30,000 -it kind of opened the door - -2020 -00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:31,360 -of what does it feel like - -2021 -00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:32,020 -for the, - -2022 -00:55:32,020 --> 00:55:33,300 -the wallet to be right there. - -2023 -00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:34,660 -You don't have to pair it. - -2024 -00:55:34,860 --> 00:55:35,780 -You don't have to install - -2025 -00:55:35,780 --> 00:55:36,500 -this other app - -2026 -00:55:36,500 --> 00:55:38,020 -and then do this other dance - -2027 -00:55:38,020 --> 00:55:38,580 -and this thing, - -2028 -00:55:38,940 --> 00:55:39,140 -which, - -2029 -00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:39,920 -again, - -2030 -00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:40,840 -I think, - -2031 -00:55:41,260 --> 00:55:43,060 -even if it were to be - -2032 -00:55:43,060 --> 00:55:44,460 -self-custodial, - -2033 -00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:45,420 -if you don't know - -2034 -00:55:45,420 --> 00:55:46,240 -what you're doing, - -2035 -00:55:46,340 --> 00:55:47,420 -if you're just blindly - -2036 -00:55:47,420 --> 00:55:48,700 -copying data around - -2037 -00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:49,580 -and you have no fucking - -2038 -00:55:49,580 --> 00:55:50,480 -clue what's going on, - -2039 -00:55:50,860 --> 00:55:51,800 -is it self-custodial? - -2040 -00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,200 -There is this wallet - -2041 -00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:56,400 -that I actually really like. - -2042 -00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,400 -It has this very normie, - -2043 -00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:01,020 -friendly onboarding flow - -2044 -00:56:01,020 --> 00:56:01,760 -for inheritance - -2045 -00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,060 -and the last flow - -2046 -00:56:04,060 --> 00:56:05,680 -is upload your backup. - -2047 -00:56:06,660 --> 00:56:07,680 -So it's like a, - -2048 -00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,860 -like a multi-sig, - -2049 -00:56:09,980 --> 00:56:10,640 -they hold whatever, - -2050 -00:56:10,740 --> 00:56:11,440 -one key or two keys - -2051 -00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:11,760 -or whatever, - -2052 -00:56:12,020 --> 00:56:13,980 -so they don't have quorum. - -2053 -00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:15,380 -But as part of the flow - -2054 -00:56:15,380 --> 00:56:16,820 -is upload your backup - -2055 -00:56:16,820 --> 00:56:17,700 -to check that everything - -2056 -00:56:17,700 --> 00:56:18,220 -is okay. - -2057 -00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:19,400 -Yes, - -2058 -00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:20,120 -I mean, - -2059 -00:56:20,620 --> 00:56:21,280 -I'm guessing - -2060 -00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:22,640 -they are good guys. - -2061 -00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:24,220 -I know they're not going to keep... - -2062 -00:56:24,220 --> 00:56:25,280 -So the backup is not encrypted - -2063 -00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:26,100 -and it's like... - -2064 -00:56:26,100 --> 00:56:26,480 -No, no, no, - -2065 -00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:27,300 -you're just literally - -2066 -00:56:27,300 --> 00:56:28,400 -just sending to make sure - -2067 -00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:29,680 -that you did everything right. - -2068 -00:56:29,700 --> 00:56:30,520 -You send your key - -2069 -00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,900 -and they promise to delete it. - -2070 -00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:33,300 -Oh, really? - -2071 -00:56:33,300 --> 00:56:35,280 -I don't think - -2072 -00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:36,640 -that they're keeping it, - -2073 -00:56:36,820 --> 00:56:38,460 -but is that really self-custodial? - -2074 -00:56:38,460 --> 00:56:38,840 -Again, - -2075 -00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:39,500 -that's the issue. - -2076 -00:56:39,700 --> 00:56:41,280 -You can't prove deletion. - -2077 -00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:42,800 -So it is pinky promise. - -2078 -00:56:43,020 --> 00:56:44,080 -It is pinky promise. - -2079 -00:56:45,580 --> 00:56:47,220 -So even if it's not self-custodial, - -2080 -00:56:47,220 --> 00:56:48,660 -you don't know - -2081 -00:56:48,660 --> 00:56:49,400 -what the fuck you're doing. - -2082 -00:56:49,700 --> 00:56:51,860 -So you could be fucking yourself. - -2083 -00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:52,460 -Yeah, yeah, of course. - -2084 -00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:54,400 -But... - -2085 -00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:55,200 -So yeah, - -2086 -00:56:55,300 --> 00:56:56,360 -the Primal thing. - -2087 -00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:57,160 -To me, - -2088 -00:56:57,340 --> 00:56:58,240 -that flow - -2089 -00:56:58,240 --> 00:56:59,460 -was so smooth - -2090 -00:56:59,460 --> 00:57:01,220 -and I think - -2091 -00:57:01,220 --> 00:57:02,760 -they've executed - -2092 -00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:03,800 -on the product really well - -2093 -00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,920 -and the wallet - -2094 -00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:07,960 -is phenomenal - -2095 -00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,260 -and I wanted something like that. - -2096 -00:57:10,540 --> 00:57:11,320 -The thing is also - -2097 -00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:12,360 -with Primal - -2098 -00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:13,420 -and also with wallet of Satoshi - -2099 -00:57:13,420 --> 00:57:14,200 -to some degree, - -2100 -00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:15,440 -but with Primal in particular, - -2101 -00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:18,340 -you can have a taste - -2102 -00:57:18,340 --> 00:57:19,200 -of what it feels like - -2103 -00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:20,160 -if your money, - -2104 -00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:21,000 -if your wallet - -2105 -00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:21,720 -follows you around. - -2106 -00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:22,140 -Yes. - -2107 -00:57:22,340 --> 00:57:22,960 -Yeah, yeah, 100%. - -2108 -00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:23,580 -It doesn't matter - -2109 -00:57:23,580 --> 00:57:24,860 -if you use it - -2110 -00:57:24,860 --> 00:57:26,040 -in five different phones - -2111 -00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:26,760 -and it doesn't matter - -2112 -00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:27,320 -if you switch - -2113 -00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:27,900 -a different phone. - -2114 -00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:29,520 -You punch in your ANZAC - -2115 -00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:30,260 -and everything's there. - -2116 -00:57:30,340 --> 00:57:30,580 -Yes. - -2117 -00:57:30,820 --> 00:57:32,480 -And that's such a superpower - -2118 -00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,080 -and it's... - -2119 -00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,420 -I think that's... - -2120 -00:57:36,420 --> 00:57:37,640 -Nutsaps hit the sweet spot - -2121 -00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:38,840 -of all of that, - -2122 -00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:39,180 -I think. - -2123 -00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:39,420 -Like, - -2124 -00:57:39,500 --> 00:57:41,280 -I think from a trade-off perspective, - -2125 -00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:42,860 -Nutsaps are fantastic. - -2126 -00:57:42,860 --> 00:57:43,200 -Again, - -2127 -00:57:43,300 --> 00:57:43,380 -like, - -2128 -00:57:43,420 --> 00:57:44,440 -don't store your whole wealth - -2129 -00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:45,100 -and so on - -2130 -00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:45,780 -and they have their issues - -2131 -00:57:45,780 --> 00:57:46,180 -and so on. - -2132 -00:57:46,580 --> 00:57:47,660 -But it's also... - -2133 -00:57:47,660 --> 00:57:48,240 -It's also... - -2134 -00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:48,840 -It's not because - -2135 -00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:50,140 -a lot of people will say, - -2136 -00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:50,560 -oh, no, - -2137 -00:57:50,620 --> 00:57:51,040 -it's custodial. - -2138 -00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:51,440 -It's custodial. - -2139 -00:57:52,060 --> 00:57:52,540 -Yes, - -2140 -00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:53,840 -in some sense, - -2141 -00:57:53,980 --> 00:57:54,940 -but also no - -2142 -00:57:54,940 --> 00:57:55,920 -in another sense - -2143 -00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:57,520 -because the Mint - -2144 -00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,940 -cannot selectively remove you - -2145 -00:58:00,940 --> 00:58:02,400 -or selectively censor you. - -2146 -00:58:02,780 --> 00:58:03,900 -It's all or nothing, - -2147 -00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:04,780 -which is different - -2148 -00:58:04,780 --> 00:58:06,760 -than what we usually think about - -2149 -00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:07,940 -in a custodial sense. - -2150 -00:58:07,940 --> 00:58:09,280 -And that's what I mean - -2151 -00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:10,600 -with like... - -2152 -00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:11,480 -Or what we also mentioned. - -2153 -00:58:11,620 --> 00:58:12,540 -We're missing the words. - -2154 -00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:13,200 -Yeah. - -2155 -00:58:13,260 --> 00:58:14,460 -The metaphors break down. - -2156 -00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:14,860 -Yeah. - -2157 -00:58:14,980 --> 00:58:16,920 -There is not just custodial - -2158 -00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:17,480 -and non-custodial. - -2159 -00:58:17,580 --> 00:58:19,100 -There's an in-between also. - -2160 -00:58:19,460 --> 00:58:20,540 -It's just like collaborative custody. - -2161 -00:58:20,660 --> 00:58:21,400 -It is in-between. - -2162 -00:58:21,620 --> 00:58:21,940 -It's like... - -2163 -00:58:22,540 --> 00:58:25,320 -It's still self-custodial, - -2164 -00:58:25,460 --> 00:58:25,940 -but it's... - -2165 -00:58:26,460 --> 00:58:27,000 -You know what I mean? - -2166 -00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:28,100 -Someone else also holds the key - -2167 -00:58:28,100 --> 00:58:28,500 -and so on. - -2168 -00:58:28,780 --> 00:58:29,880 -And I feel like - -2169 -00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,160 -in a Mint setup, - -2170 -00:58:32,260 --> 00:58:33,640 -especially the multi-Mint setup, - -2171 -00:58:34,340 --> 00:58:35,180 -it's similar. - -2172 -00:58:35,380 --> 00:58:36,040 -It's very similar - -2173 -00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:36,480 -where it's like - -2174 -00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:37,480 -it's not all or nothing. - -2175 -00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:38,420 -It's like you can't - -2176 -00:58:38,420 --> 00:58:39,520 -be completely debanked. - -2177 -00:58:39,540 --> 00:58:40,860 -You can't be completely censored. - -2178 -00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:42,040 -You can't be... - -2179 -00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:43,740 -It's selectively targeted - -2180 -00:58:43,740 --> 00:58:44,280 -and so on. - -2181 -00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:45,240 -It's... - -2182 -00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:46,400 -Again, like the Mint - -2183 -00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:47,600 -knows nothing about you. - -2184 -00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:49,740 -The Mint is blind - -2185 -00:58:49,740 --> 00:58:50,620 -towards its users. - -2186 -00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:51,420 -And that's something - -2187 -00:58:51,420 --> 00:58:52,140 -that most people, - -2188 -00:58:52,300 --> 00:58:53,160 -I feel like, - -2189 -00:58:53,220 --> 00:58:53,920 -don't really understand. - -2190 -00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:55,320 -They should. - -2191 -00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:55,840 -It's like... - -2192 -00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:56,940 -It's the main value proposition, - -2193 -00:58:57,100 --> 00:58:57,460 -I feel like. - -2194 -00:58:57,700 --> 00:58:57,940 -Yeah. - -2195 -00:58:58,600 --> 00:58:59,580 -That's the innovation. - -2196 -00:59:00,420 --> 00:59:00,820 -But... - -2197 -00:59:00,820 --> 00:59:02,340 -But also the experience, - -2198 -00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:03,220 -like... - -2199 -00:59:03,220 --> 00:59:03,820 -So Berberica - -2200 -00:59:03,820 --> 00:59:04,800 -is integrating - -2201 -00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:06,720 -Natsacs - -2202 -00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:07,620 -and Natsacs - -2203 -00:59:07,620 --> 00:59:08,440 -in Chachi. - -2204 -00:59:08,940 --> 00:59:09,980 -And I've been playing - -2205 -00:59:09,980 --> 00:59:11,200 -with the beta version - -2206 -00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:12,200 -that he's working on now. - -2207 -00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,780 -And it is so fucking cool, man. - -2208 -00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:17,120 -Like, - -2209 -00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:18,540 -it is insane. - -2210 -00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,180 -I have Ola's open - -2211 -00:59:20,180 --> 00:59:21,940 -on one side of my screen - -2212 -00:59:21,940 --> 00:59:22,880 -and then I have Chachi - -2213 -00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:23,420 -on the other side - -2214 -00:59:23,420 --> 00:59:23,960 -of the screen. - -2215 -00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:25,900 -I am looking at my wallet, - -2216 -00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:27,860 -my Natsac wallet - -2217 -00:59:27,860 --> 00:59:29,140 -on Ola's. - -2218 -00:59:29,140 --> 00:59:30,240 -And I subbed someone - -2219 -00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:31,480 -from Chachi - -2220 -00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,300 -and Ola's immediately - -2221 -00:59:33,300 --> 00:59:35,040 -reflects that I spent - -2222 -00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:35,420 -some money. - -2223 -00:59:35,620 --> 00:59:36,900 -The data is the token. - -2224 -00:59:37,100 --> 00:59:37,520 -It's the SEP. - -2225 -00:59:37,660 --> 00:59:38,640 -It's all Berberica. - -2226 -00:59:39,020 --> 00:59:39,920 -But it's so... - -2227 -00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:40,780 -And you know, - -2228 -00:59:40,860 --> 00:59:41,000 -like, - -2229 -00:59:41,180 --> 00:59:42,260 -the first thing - -2230 -00:59:42,260 --> 00:59:43,420 -that shocked me - -2231 -00:59:43,420 --> 00:59:44,520 -about Noster - -2232 -00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,360 -when I first started writing... - -2233 -00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:46,680 -Like, - -2234 -00:59:46,740 --> 00:59:47,780 -within the first 10 minutes - -2235 -00:59:47,780 --> 00:59:48,900 -of writing Noster code - -2236 -00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:49,720 -was - -2237 -00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:51,300 -I wrote this thing - -2238 -00:59:51,300 --> 00:59:52,820 -as a test - -2239 -00:59:52,820 --> 00:59:53,900 -of changing - -2240 -00:59:53,900 --> 00:59:55,100 -my profile picture - -2241 -00:59:55,100 --> 00:59:56,180 -or my name - -2242 -00:59:56,180 --> 00:59:56,740 -and whatever, right? - -2243 -00:59:56,740 --> 00:59:57,780 -The immediacy of... - -2244 -00:59:57,780 --> 00:59:58,260 -The immediacy. - -2245 -00:59:58,580 --> 00:59:59,240 -And IPC, - -2246 -00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:00,180 -inter-process communication. - -2247 -01:00:00,460 --> 01:00:01,300 -I used to read - -2248 -01:00:01,300 --> 01:00:02,300 -entire books - -2249 -01:00:02,300 --> 01:00:03,260 -about IPC - -2250 -01:00:03,260 --> 01:00:03,760 -as a kid. - -2251 -01:00:04,380 --> 01:00:04,420 -And, - -2252 -01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:05,780 -you know, - -2253 -01:00:05,860 --> 01:00:06,520 -IPC is like - -2254 -01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:07,160 -fucking music. - -2255 -01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:07,480 -Like, - -2256 -01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:09,620 -it is a very - -2257 -01:00:09,620 --> 01:00:10,800 -complex - -2258 -01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:12,820 -computer science - -2259 -01:00:12,820 --> 01:00:13,600 -problem. - -2260 -01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:14,920 -And - -2261 -01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:16,560 -you write code - -2262 -01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:18,020 -in Noster - -2263 -01:00:18,020 --> 01:00:19,680 -and it's - -2264 -01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:20,540 -by default - -2265 -01:00:20,540 --> 01:00:21,060 -it's solved. - -2266 -01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:22,400 -By default - -2267 -01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:23,120 -it's solved. - -2268 -01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:23,860 -If you build it right. - -2269 -01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:24,860 -If you build it right. - -2270 -01:00:25,060 --> 01:00:25,740 -If you build it right. - -2271 -01:00:25,740 --> 01:00:26,720 -And that's what we saw - -2272 -01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:27,620 -over and over again. - -2273 -01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:28,100 -Like, - -2274 -01:00:28,260 --> 01:00:29,160 -once you - -2275 -01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:30,460 -build out - -2276 -01:00:30,460 --> 01:00:30,920 -a backend - -2277 -01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:31,900 -and once you introduce - -2278 -01:00:31,900 --> 01:00:32,340 -a server - -2279 -01:00:32,340 --> 01:00:32,780 -in the middle - -2280 -01:00:32,780 --> 01:00:33,160 -somewhere - -2281 -01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:33,880 -all of that - -2282 -01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:34,400 -goes away. - -2283 -01:00:34,460 --> 01:00:34,720 -All of that - -2284 -01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:35,160 -falls apart. - -2285 -01:00:35,660 --> 01:00:36,000 -Absolutely. - -2286 -01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:36,300 -So, - -2287 -01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:37,240 -you actually - -2288 -01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:38,000 -have to lean - -2289 -01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:38,860 -into the Noster paradigm - -2290 -01:00:38,860 --> 01:00:40,000 -to get - -2291 -01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:40,740 -all this stuff - -2292 -01:00:40,740 --> 01:00:41,220 -for free. - -2293 -01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:41,640 -Dude, - -2294 -01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:42,080 -that's what - -2295 -01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:43,460 -shocks me - -2296 -01:00:43,460 --> 01:00:44,420 -so much - -2297 -01:00:44,420 --> 01:00:45,080 -about all the people - -2298 -01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:45,620 -that want to build - -2299 -01:00:45,620 --> 01:00:46,400 -REST APIs - -2300 -01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:47,900 -around Noster - -2301 -01:00:47,900 --> 01:00:48,360 -is like - -2302 -01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:49,740 -the web - -2303 -01:00:49,740 --> 01:00:50,400 -are fucking - -2304 -01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:50,920 -amazing. - -2305 -01:00:51,340 --> 01:00:51,360 -Like, - -2306 -01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:53,060 -you're seeing - -2307 -01:00:53,060 --> 01:00:53,600 -the event - -2308 -01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:54,560 -being changed - -2309 -01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:56,160 -in your default - -2310 -01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:56,740 -way of getting - -2311 -01:00:56,740 --> 01:00:57,620 -your data - -2312 -01:00:57,620 --> 01:00:58,340 -you're seeing - -2313 -01:00:58,340 --> 01:00:59,920 -the profile changing - -2314 -01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:00,600 -or whatever - -2315 -01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:01,780 -information is changing - -2316 -01:01:01,780 --> 01:01:02,760 -or your wallet balance - -2317 -01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:03,260 -changing. - -2318 -01:01:03,980 --> 01:01:05,240 -It's so fucking cool. - -2319 -01:01:05,420 --> 01:01:05,540 -Like, - -2320 -01:01:05,540 --> 01:01:06,880 -why are you breaking it? - -2321 -01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:07,960 -It makes no sense. - -2322 -01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:08,320 -And also, - -2323 -01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:08,980 -it doesn't matter - -2324 -01:01:08,980 --> 01:01:10,480 -how well designed - -2325 -01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:11,560 -your thing is. - -2326 -01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:12,420 -At scale - -2327 -01:01:12,420 --> 01:01:13,100 -this stuff doesn't work. - -2328 -01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:13,660 -Oh, 100%. - -2329 -01:01:13,660 --> 01:01:13,800 -Like, - -2330 -01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:14,720 -on GitHub for example - -2331 -01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:15,180 -or wherever - -2332 -01:01:15,180 --> 01:01:16,140 -if you change - -2333 -01:01:16,140 --> 01:01:16,940 -your profile picture - -2334 -01:01:16,940 --> 01:01:17,280 -or whatever - -2335 -01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:18,300 -they will show a message. - -2336 -01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:19,540 -It might take like, - -2337 -01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:19,840 -you know, - -2338 -01:01:19,900 --> 01:01:20,900 -like 24 hours - -2339 -01:01:20,900 --> 01:01:21,460 -to propagate - -2340 -01:01:21,460 --> 01:01:22,220 -through all the, - -2341 -01:01:22,260 --> 01:01:22,780 -you know, - -2342 -01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:23,440 -views - -2343 -01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:24,560 -until your - -2344 -01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:25,120 -like fucking - -2345 -01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:25,660 -profile picture - -2346 -01:01:25,660 --> 01:01:26,400 -has changed. - -2347 -01:01:26,580 --> 01:01:26,820 -And that's, - -2348 -01:01:27,060 --> 01:01:28,060 -on all large scale systems - -2349 -01:01:28,060 --> 01:01:30,160 -that's the thing. - -2350 -01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:30,360 -Like, - -2351 -01:01:30,540 --> 01:01:30,980 -it's, - -2352 -01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:32,860 -that's physics. - -2353 -01:01:33,020 --> 01:01:33,620 -That's how data - -2354 -01:01:33,620 --> 01:01:35,120 -wants to spread - -2355 -01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:35,660 -and needs to spread - -2356 -01:01:35,660 --> 01:01:36,640 -but it also takes time - -2357 -01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:37,000 -and it's, - -2358 -01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:38,160 -if you have all - -2359 -01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:38,960 -these central authorities - -2360 -01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:40,140 -and the central servers - -2361 -01:01:40,140 --> 01:01:41,480 -they need to make sure - -2362 -01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:42,480 -that the update is legit. - -2363 -01:01:42,620 --> 01:01:43,680 -They need to make sure - -2364 -01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:43,940 -that, - -2365 -01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:44,440 -you know, - -2366 -01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:45,080 -all of this stuff - -2367 -01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:45,760 -is propagated - -2368 -01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:46,320 -and so on - -2369 -01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:47,180 -and you have all this caching - -2370 -01:01:47,180 --> 01:01:47,960 -and all the things - -2371 -01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:48,360 -and so on - -2372 -01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:48,720 -and so forth - -2373 -01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:49,060 -and so on. - -2374 -01:01:49,060 --> 01:01:50,300 -And all the complexity - -2375 -01:01:50,300 --> 01:01:51,620 -is what you invite - -2376 -01:01:51,620 --> 01:01:52,640 -when you're trying - -2377 -01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:53,520 -to create - -2378 -01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,240 -a fake global state - -2379 -01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:55,720 -of the system. - -2380 -01:01:56,060 --> 01:01:57,020 -It only counts - -2381 -01:01:57,020 --> 01:01:58,180 -because you have - -2382 -01:01:58,180 --> 01:01:58,660 -that appeal. - -2383 -01:01:59,060 --> 01:01:59,140 -Yeah, - -2384 -01:01:59,440 --> 01:01:59,660 -yeah. - -2385 -01:02:00,340 --> 01:02:00,620 -If you, - -2386 -01:02:00,780 --> 01:02:01,260 -and that's, - -2387 -01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:02,740 -I was listening - -2388 -01:02:02,740 --> 01:02:04,980 -to a friend, - -2389 -01:02:05,820 --> 01:02:06,620 -I was listening - -2390 -01:02:06,620 --> 01:02:07,180 -to someone - -2391 -01:02:07,180 --> 01:02:08,460 -on a podcast - -2392 -01:02:08,460 --> 01:02:08,900 -last night. - -2393 -01:02:09,820 --> 01:02:10,420 -You can dox them, - -2394 -01:02:10,460 --> 01:02:11,020 -no one is listening - -2395 -01:02:11,020 --> 01:02:11,300 -to that. - -2396 -01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:11,960 -Yeah, - -2397 -01:02:11,980 --> 01:02:12,440 -that's true. - -2398 -01:02:12,700 --> 01:02:12,840 -No, - -2399 -01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:12,980 -no, - -2400 -01:02:13,140 --> 01:02:14,560 -it's not a friend. - -2401 -01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:17,920 -He was saying - -2402 -01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:18,200 -that, - -2403 -01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:19,420 -he was saying - -2404 -01:02:19,420 --> 01:02:19,680 -that, - -2405 -01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:20,580 -that Noster - -2406 -01:02:20,580 --> 01:02:22,020 -is not even attempting - -2407 -01:02:22,020 --> 01:02:23,220 -to solve the problems, - -2408 -01:02:23,940 --> 01:02:25,960 -that this stuff - -2409 -01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:27,340 -that they're working on - -2410 -01:02:27,340 --> 01:02:29,160 -is solving the problem - -2411 -01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:29,560 -or at least - -2412 -01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:30,220 -is trying - -2413 -01:02:30,220 --> 01:02:31,780 -and that Noster - -2414 -01:02:31,780 --> 01:02:32,480 -is not even trying. - -2415 -01:02:33,020 --> 01:02:33,740 -Noster gave up. - -2416 -01:02:35,620 --> 01:02:36,540 -And it's, - -2417 -01:02:36,580 --> 01:02:37,700 -it's this idea - -2418 -01:02:37,700 --> 01:02:40,520 -of we can engineer everything, - -2419 -01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:40,980 -you know, - -2420 -01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:41,700 -we are masters - -2421 -01:02:41,700 --> 01:02:42,320 -of the universe - -2422 -01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:43,140 -because everything - -2423 -01:02:43,140 --> 01:02:43,980 -is synthetic anyway. - -2424 -01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:44,940 -So we can, - -2425 -01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:45,940 -we can solve everything. - -2426 -01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:47,200 -There are no trade-offs. - -2427 -01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:47,360 -Yeah, - -2428 -01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:47,940 -yeah, - -2429 -01:02:47,940 --> 01:02:47,980 -yeah, - -2430 -01:02:47,980 --> 01:02:48,120 -yeah. - -2431 -01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:48,680 -It's, - -2432 -01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:49,480 -it's lots of shitcoin - -2433 -01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:50,140 -and I said this as well. - -2434 -01:02:50,220 --> 01:02:50,400 -There's, - -2435 -01:02:50,460 --> 01:02:51,520 -there are no constraints. - -2436 -01:02:51,740 --> 01:02:51,960 -Yes, - -2437 -01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:53,300 -we can do absolutely everything. - -2438 -01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:54,900 -We can solve stuff perfectly - -2439 -01:02:54,900 --> 01:02:56,540 -because there are no constraints. - -2440 -01:02:56,620 --> 01:02:57,320 -That was the, - -2441 -01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:58,740 -that was the grand invention - -2442 -01:02:58,740 --> 01:02:59,100 -of, - -2443 -01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:00,180 -of proof of stake - -2444 -01:03:00,180 --> 01:03:00,600 -on Ethereum. - -2445 -01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:01,180 -Remember that - -2446 -01:03:01,180 --> 01:03:02,300 -Vitalik said something like, - -2447 -01:03:02,380 --> 01:03:02,420 -oh, - -2448 -01:03:02,420 --> 01:03:04,040 -we're no longer bound - -2449 -01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:05,060 -to the laws of physics. - -2450 -01:03:05,060 --> 01:03:06,180 -We're no longer bound - -2451 -01:03:06,180 --> 01:03:07,000 -to physical law. - -2452 -01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:07,200 -Like, - -2453 -01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:08,220 -we can do anything now. - -2454 -01:03:08,220 --> 01:03:09,260 -We can shitcoin. - -2455 -01:03:09,380 --> 01:03:09,500 -It's, - -2456 -01:03:09,500 --> 01:03:10,840 -it's literally make-believe now. - -2457 -01:03:10,940 --> 01:03:11,080 -It's, - -2458 -01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:11,640 -it's so funny - -2459 -01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:12,320 -how this evolved, - -2460 -01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:12,760 -by the way, - -2461 -01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:13,760 -because there's now literally, - -2462 -01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:14,000 -like, - -2463 -01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:14,340 -I don't know, - -2464 -01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:16,060 -like 20 million coins - -2465 -01:03:16,060 --> 01:03:16,860 -on CoinMarketCap - -2466 -01:03:16,860 --> 01:03:17,240 -and it's like, - -2467 -01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:18,560 -no one is even pretending anymore. - -2468 -01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:19,580 -It's just like, - -2469 -01:03:19,700 --> 01:03:21,300 -there's the physical reality - -2470 -01:03:21,300 --> 01:03:21,700 -of Bitcoin - -2471 -01:03:21,700 --> 01:03:23,120 -and there's everything else. - -2472 -01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:23,880 -There's everything else. - -2473 -01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:25,360 -Complete bullshit. - -2474 -01:03:25,980 --> 01:03:26,200 -And, - -2475 -01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:26,800 -and that's what I, - -2476 -01:03:26,860 --> 01:03:27,520 -that's what I like - -2477 -01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:28,300 -about Nostra so much. - -2478 -01:03:28,340 --> 01:03:29,620 -It really leans into the, - -2479 -01:03:29,900 --> 01:03:30,100 -the, - -2480 -01:03:30,100 --> 01:03:30,540 -the, - -2481 -01:03:30,540 --> 01:03:32,780 -the nature of information itself. - -2482 -01:03:33,500 --> 01:03:35,000 -It really leans into - -2483 -01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:36,400 -the nature of information itself. - -2484 -01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:37,140 -So, - -2485 -01:03:37,420 --> 01:03:38,720 -so it doesn't try - -2486 -01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:39,480 -to produce - -2487 -01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:40,600 -a global state. - -2488 -01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:41,860 -It doesn't try to be - -2489 -01:03:41,860 --> 01:03:42,740 -perfect. - -2490 -01:03:42,740 --> 01:03:43,120 -It's like, - -2491 -01:03:43,220 --> 01:03:44,120 -the stuff is messy. - -2492 -01:03:44,180 --> 01:03:44,680 -If you see it, - -2493 -01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:45,120 -you see it. - -2494 -01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:45,320 -That's what, - -2495 -01:03:45,380 --> 01:03:45,540 -that's what, - -2496 -01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:45,860 -by the way, - -2497 -01:03:45,900 --> 01:03:46,720 -that's why it is my, - -2498 -01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:48,360 -my profile banner pic. - -2499 -01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:49,840 -It's one of the best memes - -2500 -01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:50,520 -I ever saw. - -2501 -01:03:50,660 --> 01:03:50,960 -It's like, - -2502 -01:03:51,260 --> 01:03:51,560 -you know, - -2503 -01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:52,080 -it's the, - -2504 -01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:53,960 -it's from Rocky, - -2505 -01:03:54,060 --> 01:03:54,200 -right? - -2506 -01:03:54,220 --> 01:03:54,360 -Like, - -2507 -01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:54,800 -if he dies, - -2508 -01:03:54,860 --> 01:03:55,320 -he dies. - -2509 -01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:56,720 -It's before the fight - -2510 -01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:58,080 -and someone put an ostrich - -2511 -01:03:58,080 --> 01:03:58,460 -on, - -2512 -01:03:58,480 --> 01:03:59,120 -on top - -2513 -01:03:59,120 --> 01:03:59,960 -and it's like, - -2514 -01:04:00,020 --> 01:04:00,660 -if he sees it, - -2515 -01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:01,280 -he sees it. - -2516 -01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:02,240 -That's Nostra. - -2517 -01:04:02,420 --> 01:04:02,540 -Like, - -2518 -01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:02,880 -it's like, - -2519 -01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:03,600 -there's no guarantees - -2520 -01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:04,420 -that you're going to see - -2521 -01:04:04,420 --> 01:04:05,140 -what I put out, - -2522 -01:04:05,260 --> 01:04:06,140 -but if you see it, - -2523 -01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:06,320 -like, - -2524 -01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:07,020 -you're going to see it. - -2525 -01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:07,300 -It's like, - -2526 -01:04:07,380 --> 01:04:07,460 -I, - -2527 -01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:08,380 -and there's also nothing - -2528 -01:04:08,380 --> 01:04:09,260 -I can do about it. - -2529 -01:04:09,300 --> 01:04:09,640 -It's like, - -2530 -01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:09,940 -I can, - -2531 -01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:10,200 -you know, - -2532 -01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:11,200 -like pinky promise - -2533 -01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:12,160 -requests for deletion, - -2534 -01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:13,100 -but it's like, - -2535 -01:04:13,180 --> 01:04:13,520 -you know, - -2536 -01:04:14,060 --> 01:04:14,420 -there's, - -2537 -01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:16,000 -I'm not sure if they already exist, - -2538 -01:04:16,100 --> 01:04:17,220 -but there is going to be relays - -2539 -01:04:17,220 --> 01:04:19,440 -that only keep the deleted events, - -2540 -01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:19,900 -just like, - -2541 -01:04:19,940 --> 01:04:20,100 -you know, - -2542 -01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:21,020 -Twitter deleted - -2543 -01:04:21,020 --> 01:04:21,860 -and all those kind of things. - -2544 -01:04:21,980 --> 01:04:22,220 -Oh yeah, - -2545 -01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:22,560 -for sure. - -2546 -01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:23,880 -Like all the embarrassing stuff - -2547 -01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:25,060 -is going to be in one relay, - -2548 -01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:25,800 -neatly, - -2549 -01:04:26,020 --> 01:04:26,620 -neatly, - -2550 -01:04:26,620 --> 01:04:27,920 -neatly stored forever. - -2551 -01:04:29,300 --> 01:04:30,320 -And that's just how it works. - -2552 -01:04:30,380 --> 01:04:31,400 -That's how information works. - -2553 -01:04:31,980 --> 01:04:32,100 -And, - -2554 -01:04:32,100 --> 01:04:32,360 -and, - -2555 -01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:33,680 -and pretending otherwise - -2556 -01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:34,100 -is, - -2557 -01:04:34,100 --> 01:04:35,240 -is very disingenuous. - -2558 -01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:35,600 -And, - -2559 -01:04:35,620 --> 01:04:36,160 -and you will, - -2560 -01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:37,360 -if you, - -2561 -01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:39,040 -and that's the thing, - -2562 -01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:39,340 -that's why, - -2563 -01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:40,240 -that's why I'm kind of, - -2564 -01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:40,840 -you know, - -2565 -01:04:40,860 --> 01:04:41,100 -like, - -2566 -01:04:41,220 --> 01:04:43,760 -I don't know what the right adjective is, - -2567 -01:04:44,060 --> 01:04:44,180 -but, - -2568 -01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:45,440 -but if you, - -2569 -01:04:45,580 --> 01:04:46,660 -if you, - -2570 -01:04:46,700 --> 01:04:47,260 -if you do the, - -2571 -01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:48,600 -if you lean into the, - -2572 -01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:50,100 -the Vitalik way of doing things, - -2573 -01:04:50,100 --> 01:04:51,780 -like there is no objective reality, - -2574 -01:04:51,900 --> 01:04:52,660 -everything is made up - -2575 -01:04:52,660 --> 01:04:53,640 -and physics doesn't exist, - -2576 -01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:55,320 -you will run into problems. - -2577 -01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:58,440 -You will run into intractable problems. - -2578 -01:04:59,100 --> 01:04:59,500 -And, - -2579 -01:04:59,580 --> 01:05:00,680 -and just like with the, - -2580 -01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:01,300 -like we mentioned, - -2581 -01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:02,500 -the people that try to make - -2582 -01:05:02,500 --> 01:05:03,720 -a global state happen in Nostra, - -2583 -01:05:03,900 --> 01:05:05,780 -you will run into intractable problems. - -2584 -01:05:05,780 --> 01:05:05,880 -Oh, - -2585 -01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:06,280 -a hundred percent. - -2586 -01:05:06,740 --> 01:05:07,660 -I think, - -2587 -01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,700 -I think once you start going for those, - -2588 -01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:14,640 -solving those unsolvable problems, - -2589 -01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,900 -you end up creating so much complexity, - -2590 -01:05:17,900 --> 01:05:19,940 -like you add complexity on top of complexity. - -2591 -01:05:20,060 --> 01:05:20,360 -That way, - -2592 -01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:20,760 -I mean, - -2593 -01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:21,920 -Ethereum looks the way it looks. - -2594 -01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:22,240 -Yeah. - -2595 -01:05:22,380 --> 01:05:23,860 -It's incredibly complex. - -2596 -01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:25,240 -Or to keep on the Nostra side, - -2597 -01:05:25,300 --> 01:05:26,240 -another thing is like, - -2598 -01:05:26,580 --> 01:05:29,900 -you cannot give people the same flexibility and freedom - -2599 -01:05:29,900 --> 01:05:31,320 -while holding all their keys. - -2600 -01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,740 -You can't do it. - -2601 -01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,840 -You can't solve this problem just by, - -2602 -01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:37,600 -by doing that. - -2603 -01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:38,460 -Should we turn around? - -2604 -01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:38,640 -Yeah, - -2605 -01:05:38,700 --> 01:05:39,220 -let's turn around. - -2606 -01:05:39,620 --> 01:05:40,100 -If I go, - -2607 -01:05:40,140 --> 01:05:41,160 -if I go up more, - -2608 -01:05:41,260 --> 01:05:41,740 -then I'll be, - -2609 -01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:42,560 -I'll just die. - -2610 -01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:44,860 -It's hot as well. - -2611 -01:05:45,540 --> 01:05:46,780 -So let's go back into the wind. - -2612 -01:05:46,780 --> 01:05:50,020 -It might pull us down a bit. - -2613 -01:05:50,660 --> 01:05:50,940 -But yeah, - -2614 -01:05:51,020 --> 01:05:51,320 -I guess, - -2615 -01:05:51,420 --> 01:05:53,620 -I guess that's the overarching theme here, - -2616 -01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:53,780 -right? - -2617 -01:05:53,780 --> 01:05:58,820 -Like there's so much confusion because people think that there is perfect solutions to those - -2618 -01:05:58,820 --> 01:05:59,160 -things. - -2619 -01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:01,860 -And what we are trying to point out is like, - -2620 -01:06:01,940 --> 01:06:03,080 -there's no solutions. - -2621 -01:06:03,180 --> 01:06:04,220 -There's actually only trade-offs, - -2622 -01:06:04,380 --> 01:06:08,480 -but you have to be crystal clear about the problem space. - -2623 -01:06:09,020 --> 01:06:12,120 -And that there is various things that you just cannot solve. - -2624 -01:06:13,140 --> 01:06:14,000 -And I think the, - -2625 -01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:14,260 -the, - -2626 -01:06:14,260 --> 01:06:15,280 -yeah, - -2627 -01:06:15,420 --> 01:06:16,620 -the first three or, - -2628 -01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:17,180 -or whatever, - -2629 -01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:17,500 -like, - -2630 -01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,900 -I think it hits at the core of a lot of the things that we saw. - -2631 -01:06:21,220 --> 01:06:21,760 -It's like, - -2632 -01:06:21,860 --> 01:06:24,920 -you cannot have a global state in a distributed system. - -2633 -01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:26,440 -The only, - -2634 -01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,220 -the only thing that can emulate that is Bitcoin itself. - -2635 -01:06:29,260 --> 01:06:30,960 -So you need proof of work and all those kinds of things and blah, - -2636 -01:06:30,980 --> 01:06:31,080 -blah, - -2637 -01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:31,220 -blah. - -2638 -01:06:31,420 --> 01:06:31,640 -But, - -2639 -01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:32,020 -but other, - -2640 -01:06:32,100 --> 01:06:32,580 -other than that, - -2641 -01:06:32,620 --> 01:06:33,480 -you just can't have it. - -2642 -01:06:34,020 --> 01:06:37,880 -And just because Bitcoin is not pretending to keep state outside of the system. - -2643 -01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:38,040 -Yeah, - -2644 -01:06:38,140 --> 01:06:38,380 -exactly. - -2645 -01:06:38,380 --> 01:06:39,320 -The state of the system. - -2646 -01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:39,500 -I mean, - -2647 -01:06:39,540 --> 01:06:39,660 -the, - -2648 -01:06:39,660 --> 01:06:40,580 -the Oracle problem also, - -2649 -01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:41,240 -you can't solve it. - -2650 -01:06:41,420 --> 01:06:41,600 -Yes. - -2651 -01:06:41,620 --> 01:06:44,200 -It's like Bitcoin solves the Oracle problem by the link of, - -2652 -01:06:44,620 --> 01:06:44,780 -Well, - -2653 -01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:45,920 -Chainlink did, - -2654 -01:06:45,940 --> 01:06:46,640 -did solve it. - -2655 -01:06:47,460 --> 01:06:50,060 -Because Chainlink 1 did not because it had the Oracle problem. - -2656 -01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:50,560 -So then, - -2657 -01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:51,840 -then they introduced Chainlink 2. - -2658 -01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:52,680 -Did you know this? - -2659 -01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:52,900 -No. - -2660 -01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:53,880 -It's insane, - -2661 -01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:54,100 -man. - -2662 -01:06:54,220 --> 01:06:57,540 -Like when they were faced with the idea of Oracle collusion. - -2663 -01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:01,280 -So the first idea was that you have all these Oracles and then you make like, - -2664 -01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:01,800 -I don't know, - -2665 -01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,160 -you grab four of them and you say, - -2666 -01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:03,360 -okay, - -2667 -01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:03,640 -well, - -2668 -01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:06,400 -then now three of them need to collude in order to, - -2669 -01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:06,680 -to, - -2670 -01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:07,400 -to lie to me. - -2671 -01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:08,660 -And they, - -2672 -01:07:08,660 --> 01:07:08,860 -well, - -2673 -01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:09,120 -yeah, - -2674 -01:07:09,180 --> 01:07:09,760 -they can. - -2675 -01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:10,100 -So, - -2676 -01:07:10,380 --> 01:07:10,600 -okay, - -2677 -01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:13,100 -let's introduce a second layer of Oracles. - -2678 -01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:14,780 -That's how like master Oracles. - -2679 -01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:15,180 -Ah, - -2680 -01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:15,420 -sure. - -2681 -01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:16,320 -So, - -2682 -01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:17,620 -problem solved, - -2683 -01:07:17,700 --> 01:07:17,920 -GG. - -2684 -01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:18,780 -Absolutely trust. - -2685 -01:07:18,940 --> 01:07:19,020 -Yeah, - -2686 -01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:19,340 -yeah, - -2687 -01:07:19,340 --> 01:07:19,640 -yeah. - -2688 -01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:21,260 -That's how it always works. - -2689 -01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:23,060 -That's how it always works. - -2690 -01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:23,760 -Yeah. - -2691 -01:07:23,900 --> 01:07:24,400 -And like, - -2692 -01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:24,880 -again, - -2693 -01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:26,440 -like the nature of data itself, - -2694 -01:07:26,580 --> 01:07:29,820 -like you can't really own data and you can't also prove deletion of data. - -2695 -01:07:30,020 --> 01:07:30,580 -It's like, - -2696 -01:07:30,660 --> 01:07:30,880 -if you, - -2697 -01:07:30,940 --> 01:07:32,260 -if you actually understand this, - -2698 -01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:32,920 -like, - -2699 -01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:33,960 -because a lot of the, - -2700 -01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:35,900 -the systems that I see that people try to build, - -2701 -01:07:35,900 --> 01:07:36,440 -they, - -2702 -01:07:36,540 --> 01:07:37,980 -they are very disingenuous about this. - -2703 -01:07:38,140 --> 01:07:38,740 -It's like, - -2704 -01:07:38,780 --> 01:07:38,960 -you know, - -2705 -01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:39,120 -ah, - -2706 -01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:40,840 -pinky promise we deleted it and so on. - -2707 -01:07:41,180 --> 01:07:41,440 -Uh, - -2708 -01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:42,280 -or it's like, - -2709 -01:07:42,340 --> 01:07:42,520 -they, - -2710 -01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:42,640 -they, - -2711 -01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:48,440 -they will talk about data ownership without even kind of realizing what that means or, - -2712 -01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:51,260 -or what it implies or that like data ownership is a lie in some sense. - -2713 -01:07:51,260 --> 01:07:52,200 -It's like the, - -2714 -01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:52,500 -again, - -2715 -01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:54,500 -like you can simulate ownership by keeping a secret, - -2716 -01:07:54,500 --> 01:07:58,600 -like exclusive knowledge is what simulates ownership in the world of data. - -2717 -01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:03,980 -But that implies that someone needs to be responsible to not leak the secret, - -2718 -01:08:04,300 --> 01:08:04,520 -you know? - -2719 -01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:04,920 -And again, - -2720 -01:08:05,020 --> 01:08:05,100 -like, - -2721 -01:08:05,180 --> 01:08:06,540 -I mean, - -2722 -01:08:06,580 --> 01:08:07,400 -I feel like I'm, - -2723 -01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:09,900 -I have a broken record and we're always talking about the same things, - -2724 -01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:11,160 -but it's actually important. - -2725 -01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:11,860 -It's like, - -2726 -01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:14,000 -and you can't abstract that away. - -2727 -01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:14,440 -It's, - -2728 -01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:17,380 -it's someone has to be responsible for the secret. - -2729 -01:08:17,480 --> 01:08:18,800 -And if that someone is not the user, - -2730 -01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:19,920 -then the user is not in charge. - -2731 -01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:20,180 -Period. - -2732 -01:08:20,180 --> 01:08:20,300 -Right. - -2733 -01:08:21,340 --> 01:08:21,820 -Yeah. - -2734 -01:08:21,940 --> 01:08:22,140 -I, - -2735 -01:08:22,140 --> 01:08:24,000 -I have the impression, - -2736 -01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:25,000 -I'm wondering if you, - -2737 -01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:26,980 -if you have the same feelings or if you have more, - -2738 -01:08:26,980 --> 01:08:27,480 -um, - -2739 -01:08:27,900 --> 01:08:29,400 -information or knowledge about it, - -2740 -01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:31,620 -but do you think that this, - -2741 -01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:32,280 -um, - -2742 -01:08:32,980 --> 01:08:34,760 -intention of abstracting everything, - -2743 -01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:36,260 -all the complexity away, - -2744 -01:08:36,900 --> 01:08:37,520 -is it, - -2745 -01:08:37,620 --> 01:08:38,360 -is it new? - -2746 -01:08:39,220 --> 01:08:39,500 -It, - -2747 -01:08:39,620 --> 01:08:41,880 -did it exist 300 years ago? - -2748 -01:08:43,740 --> 01:08:44,260 -Huh? - -2749 -01:08:44,260 --> 01:08:44,980 -I mean, - -2750 -01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:45,560 -I think, - -2751 -01:08:45,820 --> 01:08:49,320 -I think in, - -2752 -01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:50,540 -in some sense, - -2753 -01:08:50,780 --> 01:08:55,320 -people lost a lot of self-reliance in some sense, - -2754 -01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:56,620 -um, - -2755 -01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:58,380 -uh, - -2756 -01:08:58,500 --> 01:09:01,700 -because society works so well and a lot of the things are taken care of. - -2757 -01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:02,720 -Um, - -2758 -01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:04,580 -that's definitely part of it. - -2759 -01:09:04,900 --> 01:09:05,220 -But, - -2760 -01:09:05,260 --> 01:09:05,800 -but I also, - -2761 -01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:06,060 -I, - -2762 -01:09:06,060 --> 01:09:07,020 -I really think it's, - -2763 -01:09:07,700 --> 01:09:08,300 -it's, - -2764 -01:09:08,420 --> 01:09:11,680 -we have to give people some credit and users some credit, - -2765 -01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:13,000 -like people can figure it out. - -2766 -01:09:13,380 --> 01:09:13,780 -And, - -2767 -01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:14,140 -and, - -2768 -01:09:14,140 --> 01:09:14,700 -um, - -2769 -01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:16,000 -I, - -2770 -01:09:16,500 --> 01:09:19,300 -in some sense, - -2771 -01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:27,960 -I think we just have to build for those that are willing to take the responsibility, - -2772 -01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,540 -offer these options, - -2773 -01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:31,420 -build those tools, - -2774 -01:09:31,420 --> 01:09:43,940 -and educate as much as we can about the drawbacks of not being responsible for your online life, - -2775 -01:09:43,940 --> 01:09:48,080 -and not taking control of your destiny in cyberspace, - -2776 -01:09:48,220 --> 01:09:48,660 -so to speak. - -2777 -01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:49,880 -I think it will, - -2778 -01:09:50,020 --> 01:09:53,120 -it will be more apparent as time moves on, - -2779 -01:09:53,180 --> 01:09:53,400 -like, - -2780 -01:09:53,860 --> 01:09:56,180 -as more of your identity and your existence moves online, - -2781 -01:09:56,260 --> 01:09:56,520 -which is, - -2782 -01:09:56,620 --> 01:09:56,860 -I mean, - -2783 -01:09:56,900 --> 01:09:57,500 -it has been happening. - -2784 -01:09:57,620 --> 01:09:57,900 -Oh yeah. - -2785 -01:09:57,980 --> 01:09:58,400 -For the last, - -2786 -01:09:58,500 --> 01:09:58,760 -I don't know, - -2787 -01:09:58,800 --> 01:09:59,460 -20 years plus, - -2788 -01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:01,640 -but people really care. - -2789 -01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:02,300 -I mean, - -2790 -01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:05,640 -the most important thing that people possess nowadays is their phone. - -2791 -01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:07,760 -Your whole life is in your phone. - -2792 -01:10:09,140 --> 01:10:09,320 -And, - -2793 -01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:09,900 -and, - -2794 -01:10:09,980 --> 01:10:12,500 -a lot of people build their existence around whatever, - -2795 -01:10:12,700 --> 01:10:12,860 -you know, - -2796 -01:10:12,900 --> 01:10:14,200 -their YouTube channel or what have you, - -2797 -01:10:14,380 --> 01:10:16,980 -or around certain online communities and so on. - -2798 -01:10:17,660 --> 01:10:17,920 -And, - -2799 -01:10:18,140 --> 01:10:18,540 -um, - -2800 -01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:19,700 -I mean, - -2801 -01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:22,600 -times are so volatile now where, - -2802 -01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:23,340 -you know, - -2803 -01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:25,820 -people are actually getting debanked and deplatformed for - -2804 -01:10:25,820 --> 01:10:27,840 -very benign things, - -2805 -01:10:27,900 --> 01:10:28,860 -you know, - -2806 -01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:30,320 -like voicing opinions that, - -2807 -01:10:30,420 --> 01:10:31,140 -I don't know, - -2808 -01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:32,620 -there's only two genders, - -2809 -01:10:32,740 --> 01:10:33,080 -for example, - -2810 -01:10:33,220 --> 01:10:33,800 -or what have you, - -2811 -01:10:33,900 --> 01:10:34,160 -you know, - -2812 -01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:34,640 -terrorists. - -2813 -01:10:34,940 --> 01:10:35,080 -Yeah, - -2814 -01:10:35,180 --> 01:10:37,440 -absolutely labeled like enemy of the state, - -2815 -01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:38,280 -terrorist and so on. - -2816 -01:10:38,480 --> 01:10:38,900 -And, - -2817 -01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:40,060 -and I think this will, - -2818 -01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:40,900 -like, - -2819 -01:10:40,940 --> 01:10:42,960 -even with the political change that just happened in the US, - -2820 -01:10:43,060 --> 01:10:44,640 -that will just, - -2821 -01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:51,880 -that will just continue because if we have systems where someone in the - -2822 -01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:52,940 -middle is in full control, - -2823 -01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:54,500 -this control will be exercised. - -2824 -01:10:54,500 --> 01:10:56,460 -If there is a block button, - -2825 -01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:57,840 -the block button will be pressed. - -2826 -01:10:57,940 --> 01:10:58,420 -If there is a, - -2827 -01:10:58,420 --> 01:10:58,780 -you know, - -2828 -01:10:58,840 --> 01:10:59,260 -the platform, - -2829 -01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:00,540 -this person button, - -2830 -01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:00,800 -the, - -2831 -01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:01,100 -the, - -2832 -01:11:01,100 --> 01:11:01,480 -the, - -2833 -01:11:01,480 --> 01:11:02,400 -the button will be pressed. - -2834 -01:11:02,700 --> 01:11:02,860 -It's, - -2835 -01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:03,060 -it, - -2836 -01:11:03,060 --> 01:11:04,300 -I think in some sense, - -2837 -01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:05,200 -it's, - -2838 -01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:05,320 -it's what, - -2839 -01:11:05,380 --> 01:11:05,600 -what, - -2840 -01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:05,900 -what, - -2841 -01:11:05,900 --> 01:11:07,380 -what Satoshi figured out with Bitcoin is like, - -2842 -01:11:07,460 --> 01:11:08,460 -if there is a printing press, - -2843 -01:11:09,140 --> 01:11:11,540 -the printing press will be used because if there, - -2844 -01:11:11,540 --> 01:11:11,680 -there, - -2845 -01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:16,800 -there will be a war or emergency emergency or whatever big enough to mess with - -2846 -01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:18,680 -the monetary supply to find an excuse. - -2847 -01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:20,180 -And that's actually what gold, - -2848 -01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:22,060 -why gold was used because gold, - -2849 -01:11:22,180 --> 01:11:24,200 -gold moves the question, - -2850 -01:11:24,500 --> 01:11:26,160 -of monetary, - -2851 -01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:30,880 -monetary policy from the realm of politics into the realm of physics. - -2852 -01:11:31,100 --> 01:11:31,860 -Bitcoin does the same. - -2853 -01:11:31,980 --> 01:11:32,800 -So it removes, - -2854 -01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:34,680 -removes humans from the equation. - -2855 -01:11:35,060 --> 01:11:36,820 -And I think we have to do, - -2856 -01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:40,500 -make the same move in kind of all of cyberspace in some sense. - -2857 -01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:44,700 -And Nostra makes this move for your online life in some sense, - -2858 -01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:45,880 -like for your address book, - -2859 -01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:46,880 -for your profile, - -2860 -01:11:47,060 --> 01:11:48,760 -for your identity in some sense, - -2861 -01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:49,060 -you know, - -2862 -01:11:49,140 --> 01:11:49,660 -for your, - -2863 -01:11:49,740 --> 01:11:51,260 -the stuff that you put out, - -2864 -01:11:51,340 --> 01:11:53,280 -the content that you put out and all those kinds of things. - -2865 -01:11:54,060 --> 01:11:54,080 -And, - -2866 -01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:54,480 -and, - -2867 -01:11:54,480 --> 01:11:55,680 -and so I think, - -2868 -01:11:56,740 --> 01:12:01,480 -it's going to be the same as it was on the Bitcoin side. - -2869 -01:12:01,580 --> 01:12:01,820 -If you, - -2870 -01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,640 -if you have to flee from Venezuela, - -2871 -01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:05,980 -because otherwise you'll, - -2872 -01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:06,560 -you know, - -2873 -01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:08,140 -starve to death in the next two weeks, - -2874 -01:12:08,140 --> 01:12:13,000 -I don't have to explain why Bitcoin is interesting or important to you. - -2875 -01:12:13,300 --> 01:12:13,560 -Like you, - -2876 -01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:14,140 -you get it. - -2877 -01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:15,120 -If you got wrecked enough, - -2878 -01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:15,860 -you get it. - -2879 -01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:17,040 -And I think on the Nostra side, - -2880 -01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:17,840 -it's going to be the same thing. - -2881 -01:12:18,100 --> 01:12:18,320 -It's like, - -2882 -01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:18,740 -if you, - -2883 -01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:19,640 -if you, - -2884 -01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:20,840 -if you hopped, - -2885 -01:12:21,180 --> 01:12:24,900 -like if you got de-platformed five times because of the videos you produce or whatever, - -2886 -01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:26,580 -you will, - -2887 -01:12:26,660 --> 01:12:31,860 -you will figure out what kind of system is resilient enough that you can, - -2888 -01:12:31,980 --> 01:12:32,540 -you know, - -2889 -01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:34,720 -keep living your life and keep doing what you do, - -2890 -01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:38,340 -without this happening again and again and again. - -2891 -01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:41,200 -Yeah. - -2892 -01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:41,480 -The, - -2893 -01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:42,760 -I, - -2894 -01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:43,600 -I mean, - -2895 -01:12:43,660 --> 01:12:43,860 -we, - -2896 -01:12:43,860 --> 01:12:44,900 -we also discussed this. - -2897 -01:12:44,900 --> 01:12:45,120 -I, - -2898 -01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:52,300 -I think Nostra will shine not for the lack of pain. - -2899 -01:12:52,740 --> 01:12:55,920 -Like it will push people into Nostra because they get burned. - -2900 -01:12:56,220 --> 01:12:57,340 -But I think the vast, - -2901 -01:12:57,420 --> 01:13:00,060 -vast majority of people will come because the experience is just better. - -2902 -01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:00,540 -Because it's awesome. - -2903 -01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:01,440 -It's just fucking better. - -2904 -01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:03,320 -It's just way early. - -2905 -01:13:03,700 --> 01:13:04,680 -It's really hard to see. - -2906 -01:13:04,820 --> 01:13:05,060 -I, - -2907 -01:13:05,060 --> 01:13:07,960 -I feel like we're kind of close to that because there is no, - -2908 -01:13:08,700 --> 01:13:11,320 -and also because of Nostra and I think also because of DVMs. - -2909 -01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:11,740 -Yeah. - -2910 -01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:12,280 -Because, - -2911 -01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:13,840 -because I think with, - -2912 -01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:15,780 -with LLMs and all the AI stuff and so on, - -2913 -01:13:16,100 --> 01:13:19,260 -you need something and people are figuring this out right now. - -2914 -01:13:19,340 --> 01:13:20,820 -You need something, - -2915 -01:13:21,340 --> 01:13:26,680 -you need an underlying substrate for AI agents that is actually open. - -2916 -01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:31,520 -And that includes money in some sense that so, - -2917 -01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:35,500 -so that the agents can pay themselves and collaborate and find each other. - -2918 -01:13:35,500 --> 01:13:35,640 -Yeah. - -2919 -01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:36,740 -And also limit themselves. - -2920 -01:13:36,740 --> 01:13:37,160 -Yeah. - -2921 -01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:38,440 -Like you need to give those agents budgets, - -2922 -01:13:38,440 --> 01:13:38,900 -for example, - -2923 -01:13:38,900 --> 01:13:39,600 -and those kinds of things. - -2924 -01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:39,980 -It's like, - -2925 -01:13:39,980 --> 01:13:40,320 -yes, - -2926 -01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:41,380 -compute this car and so on, - -2927 -01:13:41,380 --> 01:13:42,060 -but still you need, - -2928 -01:13:42,420 --> 01:13:44,900 -you need marketplaces to figure out a lot of these things out. - -2929 -01:13:45,300 --> 01:13:46,320 -And Nostra provides the, - -2930 -01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:47,000 -the, - -2931 -01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:47,680 -the ground, - -2932 -01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:48,260 -so to speak. - -2933 -01:13:48,420 --> 01:13:49,560 -It provides the physics, - -2934 -01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:50,040 -if you will, - -2935 -01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:50,380 -for, - -2936 -01:13:50,380 --> 01:13:50,780 -for, - -2937 -01:13:50,780 --> 01:13:51,720 -for this ecosystem. - -2938 -01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:52,320 -Yeah. - -2939 -01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:54,520 -And it can't work in like a closed system, - -2940 -01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:55,160 -like for all the, - -2941 -01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:56,260 -the reasons we mentioned that. - -2942 -01:13:56,260 --> 01:13:56,380 -So, - -2943 -01:13:56,380 --> 01:13:57,220 -but yeah, - -2944 -01:13:57,220 --> 01:13:57,540 -I'm, - -2945 -01:13:57,540 --> 01:13:58,160 -I, - -2946 -01:13:58,160 --> 01:13:59,680 -I rented so much now that I'm, - -2947 -01:13:59,680 --> 01:13:59,940 -I'm, - -2948 -01:13:59,940 --> 01:14:00,620 -I'm close to, - -2949 -01:14:00,620 --> 01:14:04,120 -to that's like, - -2950 -01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:05,400 -we don't have a limit on this, - -2951 -01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:07,440 -but it's like after like 60 minutes or so, - -2952 -01:14:07,440 --> 01:14:08,460 -I die of heat stroke. - -2953 -01:14:08,460 --> 01:14:10,120 -And that's like a good place to end. - -2954 -01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:14,260 -I feel like it's only going to get worse because we're going into the summer. - -2955 -01:14:14,260 --> 01:14:14,600 -So, - -2956 -01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:16,060 -Oh yeah, - -2957 -01:14:16,060 --> 01:14:16,880 -it's going to get hotter, - -2958 -01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:20,160 -but yeah, - -2959 -01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:20,540 -no, - -2960 -01:14:20,540 --> 01:14:20,780 -I, - -2961 -01:14:20,780 --> 01:14:21,040 -I, - -2962 -01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:21,360 -I mean, - -2963 -01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:21,820 -I feel like, - -2964 -01:14:21,860 --> 01:14:22,580 -I feel like we're, - -2965 -01:14:22,580 --> 01:14:24,660 -we're two old guys sitting on the, - -2966 -01:14:24,660 --> 01:14:24,880 -on the, - -2967 -01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:26,460 -on the lawn and screaming at the kids. - -2968 -01:14:26,540 --> 01:14:26,780 -Yeah. - -2969 -01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:27,820 -So sometimes I, - -2970 -01:14:27,820 --> 01:14:28,120 -I, - -2971 -01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:29,180 -I think a little bit about, - -2972 -01:14:29,300 --> 01:14:34,080 -about that in the sense as we are recreating a, - -2973 -01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:37,400 -a web that is far less permissioned, - -2974 -01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:39,960 -which is where we grew up in, - -2975 -01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:40,560 -right? - -2976 -01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:42,020 -It looked a lot more like that. - -2977 -01:14:42,020 --> 01:14:42,440 -Yeah. - -2978 -01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:42,760 -Like, - -2979 -01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:43,000 -you know, - -2980 -01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:44,280 -like the geo cities and whatnot. - -2981 -01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:44,480 -Yeah. - -2982 -01:14:44,480 --> 01:14:45,160 -Um, - -2983 -01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:47,840 -and that's one thing that I, - -2984 -01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:48,320 -that we, - -2985 -01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:49,300 -we mentioned as well. - -2986 -01:14:49,300 --> 01:14:49,860 -Um, - -2987 -01:14:49,860 --> 01:14:50,680 -and I, - -2988 -01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:52,420 -I think actually in the first cohort, - -2989 -01:14:52,420 --> 01:14:52,800 -but I, - -2990 -01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:54,100 -I think I mentioned it a couple of times. - -2991 -01:14:54,100 --> 01:14:54,780 -It's, - -2992 -01:14:54,780 --> 01:14:55,780 -I think we have to be careful. - -2993 -01:14:55,780 --> 01:14:56,780 -Um, - -2994 -01:14:56,780 --> 01:14:57,560 -and that's, - -2995 -01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:58,800 -it's not even my line. - -2996 -01:14:58,800 --> 01:14:59,440 -Um, - -2997 -01:14:59,440 --> 01:14:59,740 -but, - -2998 -01:14:59,740 --> 01:15:00,360 -but, - -2999 -01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:01,100 -uh, - -3000 -01:15:01,100 --> 01:15:03,100 -neither nostalgia nor utopia. - -3001 -01:15:03,100 --> 01:15:04,020 -Like we, - -3002 -01:15:04,020 --> 01:15:04,200 -we, - -3003 -01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:07,400 -we must not make the mistake of being nostalgic about geo cities or, - -3004 -01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:07,900 -yeah, - -3005 -01:15:07,900 --> 01:15:08,620 -absolutely. - -3006 -01:15:08,780 --> 01:15:10,020 -And rebuild it exactly. - -3007 -01:15:10,020 --> 01:15:10,600 -And so on, - -3008 -01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:12,280 -but it had a lot of good things. - -3009 -01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:12,540 -Yes. - -3010 -01:15:12,540 --> 01:15:13,380 -Just like all traditions. - -3011 -01:15:13,380 --> 01:15:14,820 -They have a lot of good things. - -3012 -01:15:14,820 --> 01:15:15,740 -And, - -3013 -01:15:15,740 --> 01:15:17,100 -and also it's not going to be utopia. - -3014 -01:15:17,100 --> 01:15:17,580 -And it's, - -3015 -01:15:17,580 --> 01:15:20,280 -I think that's a lot of what a lot of the Bitcoiners got wrong in some sense. - -3016 -01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:21,620 -It's like Bitcoin is no utopia, - -3017 -01:15:21,620 --> 01:15:22,140 -not at all. - -3018 -01:15:22,140 --> 01:15:22,580 -It's like, - -3019 -01:15:22,580 --> 01:15:22,880 -it's, - -3020 -01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:23,260 -it's, - -3021 -01:15:23,260 --> 01:15:27,420 -you actually have to take responsibility to enjoy the freedom of that Bitcoin brings - -3022 -01:15:27,420 --> 01:15:29,720 -you and taking responsibility is not utopic, - -3023 -01:15:29,860 --> 01:15:30,580 -not utopic. - -3024 -01:15:30,820 --> 01:15:31,100 -It's, - -3025 -01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:31,720 -it's hard. - -3026 -01:15:31,860 --> 01:15:34,980 -It's like you have to put in the work and you have to actually be responsible for - -3027 -01:15:34,980 --> 01:15:36,020 -those things and so on. - -3028 -01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:37,140 -And the same on the NASA side, - -3029 -01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:37,820 -it's not a utopia. - -3030 -01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:38,540 -It's not like, - -3031 -01:15:38,980 --> 01:15:39,220 -you know, - -3032 -01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:39,700 -you just, - -3033 -01:15:39,740 --> 01:15:40,160 -uh, - -3034 -01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:42,960 -lay on the couch and get fat cake all day long. - -3035 -01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:44,240 -And that's why you don't have to do anything. - -3036 -01:15:44,380 --> 01:15:47,000 -You actually have to put in some work into Noster to, - -3037 -01:15:47,100 --> 01:15:48,960 -to enjoy the freedom that it brings you. - -3038 -01:15:49,180 --> 01:15:49,920 -It's like you, - -3039 -01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:52,460 -you're depending on what you do and who you are and how you use it. - -3040 -01:15:52,460 --> 01:15:53,260 -If you're a power user, - -3041 -01:15:53,260 --> 01:15:54,200 -you might want to, - -3042 -01:15:54,580 --> 01:15:54,800 -you know, - -3043 -01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:57,820 -like run your own relay or even run your own mint or what have you to, - -3044 -01:15:57,820 --> 01:15:59,000 -to enjoy all this stuff. - -3045 -01:15:59,580 --> 01:15:59,660 -And, - -3046 -01:15:59,720 --> 01:15:59,880 -and, - -3047 -01:15:59,980 --> 01:16:01,060 -and so I think that's, - -3048 -01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:02,240 -that's also something that, - -3049 -01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:07,200 -that we have to really kind of be more outspoken about in some sense, - -3050 -01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:07,520 -because, - -3051 -01:16:07,700 --> 01:16:09,820 -because a lot of people that are really bullish on this stuff, - -3052 -01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:11,740 -they will tell you that, - -3053 -01:16:11,860 --> 01:16:12,220 -oh yeah, - -3054 -01:16:12,220 --> 01:16:13,120 -it's going to be utopia. - -3055 -01:16:13,300 --> 01:16:14,420 -It's everything's going to be amazing. - -3056 -01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:14,660 -It's like, - -3057 -01:16:14,660 --> 01:16:14,880 -no, - -3058 -01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:15,320 -it's like, - -3059 -01:16:15,340 --> 01:16:16,840 -there is no utopic solution. - -3060 -01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:17,640 -There isn't. - -3061 -01:16:17,740 --> 01:16:20,560 -I think that's where I was wrong with building an insect bunker. - -3062 -01:16:21,020 --> 01:16:23,200 -It's thinking you can, - -3063 -01:16:23,300 --> 01:16:25,420 -you can not reach utopia, - -3064 -01:16:25,420 --> 01:16:26,080 -but like, - -3065 -01:16:26,180 --> 01:16:26,520 -uh, - -3066 -01:16:26,580 --> 01:16:28,180 -like approach utopia, - -3067 -01:16:28,380 --> 01:16:28,660 -you know, - -3068 -01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:29,840 -and I was just, - -3069 -01:16:30,480 --> 01:16:31,760 -I was struck away the key. - -3070 -01:16:33,380 --> 01:16:34,420 -I was so young. - -3071 -01:16:34,420 --> 01:16:38,600 -One and a half years ago. - -3072 -01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:38,940 -Yeah. - -3073 -01:16:38,940 --> 01:16:39,420 -Learned a lot. - -3074 -01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:40,480 -Yeah. - -3075 -01:16:40,540 --> 01:16:40,860 -I think, - -3076 -01:16:40,940 --> 01:16:44,860 -I think one of the things that it's, - -3077 -01:16:44,860 --> 01:16:46,420 -it's very hard to figure out beforehand, - -3078 -01:16:46,420 --> 01:16:47,400 -but there is some, - -3079 -01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:54,160 -there's some kind of solutions that make stuff worse over time. - -3080 -01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:56,880 -And there's other solutions that make stuff better over time. - -3081 -01:16:57,700 --> 01:16:59,720 -and like Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining is a great example. - -3082 -01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:01,000 -I think Bitcoin mining in, - -3083 -01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:01,680 -in essence, - -3084 -01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:03,060 -it gets better over time. - -3085 -01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:04,320 -It gets more distributed. - -3086 -01:17:04,540 --> 01:17:05,100 -It's it's it's, - -3087 -01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:06,980 -and we had this metaphors for a long time. - -3088 -01:17:06,980 --> 01:17:07,300 -It's like, - -3089 -01:17:07,300 --> 01:17:10,080 -it finds the stranded energy and all those kinds of things, - -3090 -01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:10,400 -you know, - -3091 -01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:12,100 -and it finds a nice equilibrium. - -3092 -01:17:12,480 --> 01:17:14,020 -It's not going to eat up all the world's energy, - -3093 -01:17:14,100 --> 01:17:14,500 -for example, - -3094 -01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:14,920 -and so on. - -3095 -01:17:14,980 --> 01:17:15,200 -It's like, - -3096 -01:17:15,300 --> 01:17:16,480 -I read it in some report. - -3097 -01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:16,780 -Yeah. - -3098 -01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:17,600 -By 2020, - -3099 -01:17:17,740 --> 01:17:18,280 -we're going to be fucked. - -3100 -01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:19,960 -It's like we're going to boil the oceans, - -3101 -01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:20,160 -everything. - -3102 -01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:20,760 -And, - -3103 -01:17:20,860 --> 01:17:21,260 -and, - -3104 -01:17:21,380 --> 01:17:23,100 -and I, - -3105 -01:17:23,440 --> 01:17:25,700 -but it's very hard to know kind of beforehand. - -3106 -01:17:25,940 --> 01:17:27,240 -And Sackbanka gets worse over time. - -3107 -01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:27,720 -Oh, - -3108 -01:17:27,820 --> 01:17:27,920 -how? - -3109 -01:17:28,060 --> 01:17:29,580 -And I think I, - -3110 -01:17:29,580 --> 01:17:33,200 -I just looked just a couple of days ago, - -3111 -01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:34,520 -I posted out in Nostra as well. - -3112 -01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:34,780 -It's like, - -3113 -01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:34,940 -what, - -3114 -01:17:34,980 --> 01:17:36,160 -what are your thoughts on pass keys? - -3115 -01:17:36,480 --> 01:17:37,820 -Half the people didn't understand the question. - -3116 -01:17:37,900 --> 01:17:38,580 -There was funny as well. - -3117 -01:17:39,440 --> 01:17:41,400 -I wasn't talking about YubiKeys. - -3118 -01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:43,160 -No, - -3119 -01:17:43,260 --> 01:17:44,580 -the pass key is basically it, - -3120 -01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:45,100 -it, - -3121 -01:17:45,100 --> 01:17:45,440 -um, - -3122 -01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:47,360 -Google and Apple and, - -3123 -01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:48,260 -and one password and, - -3124 -01:17:48,260 --> 01:17:49,540 -and also the YubiKeys people, - -3125 -01:17:49,580 --> 01:17:50,340 -they really push it. - -3126 -01:17:50,340 --> 01:17:52,140 -And it's basically it's, - -3127 -01:17:52,140 --> 01:17:52,440 -it's, - -3128 -01:17:52,440 --> 01:17:53,880 -it's public key cryptography, - -3129 -01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:54,480 -but, - -3130 -01:17:54,580 --> 01:17:55,120 -but, - -3131 -01:17:55,260 --> 01:17:56,360 -but the private key, - -3132 -01:17:56,820 --> 01:17:58,000 -you're not really in control. - -3133 -01:17:58,100 --> 01:18:00,660 -It's either on your device or it's with Apple or, - -3134 -01:18:00,660 --> 01:18:02,540 -or in one password and you can't get it out. - -3135 -01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:03,360 -So, - -3136 -01:18:03,440 --> 01:18:03,680 -so, - -3137 -01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:07,320 -so in some sense you are not in control of your private key because people are bad with keys and they can leak them. - -3138 -01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:07,620 -So I, - -3139 -01:18:07,620 --> 01:18:08,760 -I understand where it comes from. - -3140 -01:18:08,860 --> 01:18:09,180 -And I'm, - -3141 -01:18:09,180 --> 01:18:10,540 -I'm not saying they suck. - -3142 -01:18:10,740 --> 01:18:11,080 -It's like, - -3143 -01:18:11,100 --> 01:18:11,300 -it's, - -3144 -01:18:11,300 --> 01:18:13,160 -it's a different kind of trade off again and so on. - -3145 -01:18:13,380 --> 01:18:13,760 -But, - -3146 -01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:14,260 -but I, - -3147 -01:18:14,340 --> 01:18:15,360 -I feel like, - -3148 -01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:17,940 -I think pass keys are going to get worse over time. - -3149 -01:18:17,940 --> 01:18:21,180 -because it's going to be in like one or two data silos. - -3150 -01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:21,920 -Oh yeah, - -3151 -01:18:21,980 --> 01:18:22,380 -absolutely. - -3152 -01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:22,880 -And, - -3153 -01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:23,260 -and, - -3154 -01:18:23,260 --> 01:18:23,520 -and, - -3155 -01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:23,840 -and, - -3156 -01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:24,280 -and, - -3157 -01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:24,540 -I mean, - -3158 -01:18:24,540 --> 01:18:25,220 -it's starting there. - -3159 -01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:25,780 -Yeah. - -3160 -01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:27,040 -It's starting there also. - -3161 -01:18:27,220 --> 01:18:27,360 -Yeah. - -3162 -01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:27,920 -And it's also, - -3163 -01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:28,820 -it, - -3164 -01:18:28,820 --> 01:18:29,760 -it's, - -3165 -01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:30,020 -you know, - -3166 -01:18:30,020 --> 01:18:31,100 -it's this FIDO Alliance. - -3167 -01:18:31,100 --> 01:18:32,800 -It's like the three biggest players come together. - -3168 -01:18:32,860 --> 01:18:33,820 -We're going to do it like this now. - -3169 -01:18:33,940 --> 01:18:35,500 -It's going to be amazing. - -3170 -01:18:35,620 --> 01:18:37,360 -No one has to use passwords ever again. - -3171 -01:18:37,500 --> 01:18:38,540 -No one knows how this stuff works. - -3172 -01:18:38,540 --> 01:18:38,920 -Basically, - -3173 -01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:40,240 -it's very confusing for users. - -3174 -01:18:40,240 --> 01:18:42,700 -And you're just locked into the ecosystem forever, - -3175 -01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:43,200 -basically, - -3176 -01:18:43,400 --> 01:18:44,040 -in some sense that, - -3177 -01:18:44,100 --> 01:18:46,340 -that I think might be the result. - -3178 -01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:46,800 -Oh, - -3179 -01:18:46,940 --> 01:18:47,840 -a hundred percent. - -3180 -01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:49,660 -Unless there are some innovations and some, - -3181 -01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:50,320 -I don't know. - -3182 -01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:51,520 -And it's also, - -3183 -01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:52,680 -I think that's the thing. - -3184 -01:18:52,740 --> 01:18:53,940 -You cannot innovate that. - -3185 -01:18:54,060 --> 01:18:54,560 -Like you, - -3186 -01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:55,480 -you cannot solve, - -3187 -01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:56,620 -you cannot square. - -3188 -01:18:56,780 --> 01:18:57,440 -What's the phrase? - -3189 -01:18:57,480 --> 01:18:58,400 -You cannot square that circle. - -3190 -01:18:58,400 --> 01:18:58,600 -Yeah. - -3191 -01:18:58,740 --> 01:18:58,880 -Yeah. - -3192 -01:18:58,880 --> 01:18:59,200 -You, - -3193 -01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:00,200 -you cannot solve that. - -3194 -01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:00,480 -Yeah. - -3195 -01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:04,820 -Like you either have the key and you control the key or, - -3196 -01:19:04,820 --> 01:19:06,460 -or someone else is controlling the key. - -3197 -01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:07,100 -And it's, - -3198 -01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:07,440 -again, - -3199 -01:19:07,480 --> 01:19:07,640 -it's, - -3200 -01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:07,800 -it's, - -3201 -01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:09,860 -it's such an impossible problem because it's the, - -3202 -01:19:09,860 --> 01:19:10,000 -the, - -3203 -01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:10,800 -what we landed on, - -3204 -01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:11,100 -on the, - -3205 -01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:12,620 -on the authentication world is like, - -3206 -01:19:13,020 --> 01:19:13,360 -uh, - -3207 -01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:14,140 -basically something, - -3208 -01:19:14,140 --> 01:19:14,700 -you know, - -3209 -01:19:14,700 --> 01:19:16,520 -and something you own and something you are. - -3210 -01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:16,720 -It's, - -3211 -01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:17,300 -it's basically, - -3212 -01:19:17,300 --> 01:19:18,180 -it's, - -3213 -01:19:18,180 --> 01:19:22,700 -it's a password and a YubiKey and a biometrics. - -3214 -01:19:22,820 --> 01:19:23,100 -Okay. - -3215 -01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:23,920 -It's something like that. - -3216 -01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:24,440 -And, - -3217 -01:19:24,440 --> 01:19:25,480 -and that's the best we can do. - -3218 -01:19:25,480 --> 01:19:25,920 -That's like, - -3219 -01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:26,380 -it's very, - -3220 -01:19:26,380 --> 01:19:28,720 -very hard to attack all that and steal all that. - -3221 -01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:31,060 -And so on the problem with biometrics is, - -3222 -01:19:31,060 --> 01:19:33,840 -and that's what most people also have no realization of. - -3223 -01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:35,440 -Biometrics are usernames and not passwords. - -3224 -01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:36,280 -And, - -3225 -01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:36,600 -and, - -3226 -01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:37,440 -and the, - -3227 -01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:37,700 -uh, - -3228 -01:19:37,700 --> 01:19:38,980 -I mean the chaos computer club people, - -3229 -01:19:38,980 --> 01:19:40,960 -they made this readily apparent when they like, - -3230 -01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:41,400 -you know, - -3231 -01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:44,780 -got a photo from fucking Angela Merkel or whatever. - -3232 -01:19:44,780 --> 01:19:45,180 -And, - -3233 -01:19:45,180 --> 01:19:46,480 -and from the photo, - -3234 -01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:49,360 -they reverse engineered the fingerprint and they unlock the phone. - -3235 -01:19:49,540 --> 01:19:50,840 -And you can actually do that. - -3236 -01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:51,740 -It's a high res photo, - -3237 -01:19:51,860 --> 01:19:53,500 -like cameras are good and you, - -3238 -01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,900 -you get all the lines and then you print it out and then you use some wax or - -3239 -01:19:56,900 --> 01:19:57,720 -something and so on. - -3240 -01:19:57,740 --> 01:19:57,860 -It's, - -3241 -01:19:57,860 --> 01:19:58,600 -it's not even that hard. - -3242 -01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:00,260 -Like you can DIY that stuff. - -3243 -01:20:00,260 --> 01:20:00,760 -And then you just, - -3244 -01:20:00,940 --> 01:20:01,140 -you, - -3245 -01:20:01,220 --> 01:20:03,720 -you put the little film over your own finger and you touch the finger, - -3246 -01:20:04,020 --> 01:20:05,780 -the fingerprint sensor and the phone unlocks. - -3247 -01:20:05,980 --> 01:20:07,980 -So biometrics are usernames. - -3248 -01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:08,680 -They're not passwords. - -3249 -01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:09,240 -And, - -3250 -01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:10,480 -and passwords are actually great. - -3251 -01:20:10,580 --> 01:20:11,960 -People suck at doing passwords, - -3252 -01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:15,500 -but people will also suck at doing private keys and pass keys, - -3253 -01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:16,000 -for example, - -3254 -01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:16,320 -you know, - -3255 -01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:17,080 -and the thing is like, - -3256 -01:20:17,300 --> 01:20:17,520 -okay, - -3257 -01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:18,140 -everything is like, - -3258 -01:20:18,140 --> 01:20:20,600 -let's say you have the one on device pass key and then, - -3259 -01:20:20,660 --> 01:20:20,900 -you know, - -3260 -01:20:20,900 --> 01:20:21,300 -like you, - -3261 -01:20:21,300 --> 01:20:22,260 -you lose your phone. - -3262 -01:20:22,500 --> 01:20:23,720 -Like you're insanely wrecked. - -3263 -01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:24,740 -You're mega wrecked. - -3264 -01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:25,520 -You have to, - -3265 -01:20:25,620 --> 01:20:26,560 -you have to call Google. - -3266 -01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:29,100 -So in Apple, - -3267 -01:20:29,100 --> 01:20:31,720 -I don't know if that's the way I'm guessing is the same way in Google. - -3268 -01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:32,600 -In Apple, - -3269 -01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:33,020 -your, - -3270 -01:20:33,020 --> 01:20:34,820 -your pass key is all stored in the cloud. - -3271 -01:20:34,820 --> 01:20:35,660 -In the cloud. - -3272 -01:20:35,660 --> 01:20:36,660 -Of course, - -3273 -01:20:36,660 --> 01:20:36,940 -of course, - -3274 -01:20:36,940 --> 01:20:37,280 -of course, - -3275 -01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:37,540 -but, - -3276 -01:20:37,540 --> 01:20:38,040 -but someone, - -3277 -01:20:38,220 --> 01:20:39,780 -the secret has to be somewhere. - -3278 -01:20:39,780 --> 01:20:40,060 -Like, - -3279 -01:20:40,060 --> 01:20:40,320 -yeah, - -3280 -01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:40,520 -yeah, - -3281 -01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:41,060 -exactly. - -3282 -01:20:41,060 --> 01:20:41,980 -stuff on the cloud. - -3283 -01:20:41,980 --> 01:20:42,520 -Like it's all, - -3284 -01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:43,040 -it's, - -3285 -01:20:43,040 --> 01:20:43,260 -it's, - -3286 -01:20:43,260 --> 01:20:44,420 -it's turtles all the way down. - -3287 -01:20:44,540 --> 01:20:44,960 -And that's also, - -3288 -01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:45,260 -I mean, - -3289 -01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:45,720 -I mean, - -3290 -01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:45,920 -we, - -3291 -01:20:46,220 --> 01:20:49,560 -everyone always runs into the same problems and, - -3292 -01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:50,980 -and on the nostril side as well. - -3293 -01:20:51,020 --> 01:20:51,160 -Okay. - -3294 -01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:51,460 -What is, - -3295 -01:20:51,580 --> 01:20:52,740 -what about key rotation? - -3296 -01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:53,240 -Yeah. - -3297 -01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:53,800 -Okay. - -3298 -01:20:53,860 --> 01:20:54,220 -Oh yeah. - -3299 -01:20:54,220 --> 01:20:55,740 -Then you have a master key and you derive, - -3300 -01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:58,280 -you derive the thing from the master key and so on. - -3301 -01:20:58,280 --> 01:20:58,460 -Okay. - -3302 -01:20:58,460 --> 01:20:58,760 -What if, - -3303 -01:20:58,760 --> 01:20:59,960 -what if your master key gets stolen? - -3304 -01:21:00,220 --> 01:21:02,060 -Because it's always about compromise and so on. - -3305 -01:21:02,060 --> 01:21:02,480 -And then you, - -3306 -01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:03,000 -you, - -3307 -01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:03,460 -you know, - -3308 -01:21:03,460 --> 01:21:04,920 -like you timestamp some things. - -3309 -01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:05,120 -Okay. - -3310 -01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:06,560 -I'm still in control of my key, - -3311 -01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:07,440 -pinky promise. - -3312 -01:21:07,440 --> 01:21:08,180 -And I, - -3313 -01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:08,700 -so I, - -3314 -01:21:08,700 --> 01:21:11,440 -I whitelist the next other keys that, - -3315 -01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:12,140 -you know, - -3316 -01:21:12,140 --> 01:21:16,420 -I set them up in advance because if my key gets compromised and so on and so forth, - -3317 -01:21:16,420 --> 01:21:16,980 -but it's, - -3318 -01:21:16,980 --> 01:21:17,280 -it's all, - -3319 -01:21:17,340 --> 01:21:20,560 -it's all based in pinky promise because of all the things we talked about, - -3320 -01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:21,740 -because you, - -3321 -01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:21,980 -you, - -3322 -01:21:21,980 --> 01:21:24,280 -you cannot prove deletion of a key. - -3323 -01:21:24,860 --> 01:21:25,660 -You cannot, - -3324 -01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:26,080 -you, - -3325 -01:21:26,260 --> 01:21:29,660 -there is no link between the real world and the world of data. - -3326 -01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:30,900 -There just is none. - -3327 -01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:32,220 -So if someone steals your key, - -3328 -01:21:32,780 --> 01:21:37,320 -there is no difference between you pretending your key got stolen or you pretending you lost your key or - -3329 -01:21:37,320 --> 01:21:41,340 -someone actually stealing your key or someone actually losing their key. - -3330 -01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:42,100 -It's the, - -3331 -01:21:42,100 --> 01:21:42,380 -the, - -3332 -01:21:42,380 --> 01:21:42,720 -the, - -3333 -01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:44,680 -the computer system cannot know. - -3334 -01:21:44,900 --> 01:21:45,060 -Yeah. - -3335 -01:21:45,060 --> 01:21:45,160 -Yeah. - -3336 -01:21:45,740 --> 01:21:46,460 -And that's the whole, - -3337 -01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:46,820 -that's, - -3338 -01:21:46,820 --> 01:21:47,700 -that's, - -3339 -01:21:47,700 --> 01:21:47,940 -that's, - -3340 -01:21:47,940 --> 01:21:48,220 -that's it. - -3341 -01:21:48,660 --> 01:21:49,800 -You can't solve it. - -3342 -01:21:49,980 --> 01:21:51,600 -So don't pretend that you solved it in some way. - -3343 -01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:52,020 -I, - -3344 -01:21:52,020 --> 01:21:52,920 -I think that's why the, - -3345 -01:21:52,940 --> 01:21:53,220 -um, - -3346 -01:21:53,220 --> 01:21:55,440 -this idea of having like a, - -3347 -01:21:55,440 --> 01:21:57,740 -like a social key account, - -3348 -01:21:57,920 --> 01:21:58,940 -whatever identity recover. - -3349 -01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:01,580 -It's like retarded as fuck, - -3350 -01:22:01,580 --> 01:22:03,480 -but it's a reality, - -3351 -01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:03,760 -right? - -3352 -01:22:03,980 --> 01:22:05,220 -It's left side of the bell curve, - -3353 -01:22:05,220 --> 01:22:06,700 -which is why it works. - -3354 -01:22:06,700 --> 01:22:08,780 -But we also have to differentiate between, - -3355 -01:22:08,780 --> 01:22:11,620 -between identity and authentication. - -3356 -01:22:11,620 --> 01:22:12,840 -When I wrote that NIP, - -3357 -01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:16,960 -NIP 41 there with a key rotation and the pre assigning of the white listing of the key. - -3358 -01:22:17,060 --> 01:22:17,720 -When I wrote that, - -3359 -01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:18,900 -this, - -3360 -01:22:19,060 --> 01:22:19,200 -the, - -3361 -01:22:19,200 --> 01:22:23,220 -the hardest part was how do I name this NIP? - -3362 -01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:26,640 -And I went with key rotation. - -3363 -01:22:26,980 --> 01:22:28,480 -It's both of those are wrong. - -3364 -01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:30,760 -Identity migrate. - -3365 -01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:31,440 -I think I, - -3366 -01:22:31,440 --> 01:22:32,000 -I landed, - -3367 -01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:33,440 -ended up landing on identity migration, - -3368 -01:22:33,440 --> 01:22:34,440 -which is also wrong. - -3369 -01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:35,360 -It's, - -3370 -01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:35,660 -it's, - -3371 -01:22:35,660 --> 01:22:37,020 -it's just like a pointer. - -3372 -01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:37,480 -Yeah, - -3373 -01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:37,740 -yeah, - -3374 -01:22:37,740 --> 01:22:37,900 -yeah, - -3375 -01:22:37,900 --> 01:22:38,220 -exactly. - -3376 -01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:38,600 -Exactly. - -3377 -01:22:38,940 --> 01:22:39,340 -But, - -3378 -01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:43,540 -but naming it was so hard because I mean, - -3379 -01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,360 -rotation also means a bunch of things, - -3380 -01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:45,600 -right? - -3381 -01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:46,440 -So it's, - -3382 -01:22:46,440 --> 01:22:51,980 -it's a very problematic term because it actually has a meaning within like PGP and, - -3383 -01:22:52,100 --> 01:22:52,200 -you know, - -3384 -01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:53,340 -like it means something. - -3385 -01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:56,960 -And what I wrote there is not rotation. - -3386 -01:22:57,260 --> 01:22:57,360 -Yeah. - -3387 -01:22:58,640 --> 01:22:59,040 -But, - -3388 -01:22:59,120 --> 01:22:59,720 -but to me, - -3389 -01:22:59,740 --> 01:23:00,400 -the more I think, - -3390 -01:23:00,480 --> 01:23:01,360 -and I know that when, - -3391 -01:23:01,460 --> 01:23:02,200 -when I wrote that, - -3392 -01:23:02,340 --> 01:23:03,120 -that you were, - -3393 -01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:03,380 -you, - -3394 -01:23:03,380 --> 01:23:06,060 -you extremely favored that part of the NIP was, - -3395 -01:23:06,920 --> 01:23:07,460 -you should say, - -3396 -01:23:07,540 --> 01:23:08,040 -Gigi says, - -3397 -01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:08,220 -Oh, - -3398 -01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:09,640 -Pablo's league is compromised. - -3399 -01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:10,700 -Pablo's new keys. - -3400 -01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:11,240 -This one, - -3401 -01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:13,420 -people know that we have a relationship. - -3402 -01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:14,920 -So they say, - -3403 -01:23:14,940 --> 01:23:15,060 -Oh, - -3404 -01:23:15,100 --> 01:23:15,260 -well, - -3405 -01:23:15,300 --> 01:23:17,000 -Gigi said that this is the new key. - -3406 -01:23:17,140 --> 01:23:17,260 -Okay. - -3407 -01:23:17,400 --> 01:23:17,960 -I'm okay. - -3408 -01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:18,460 -It already works. - -3409 -01:23:18,580 --> 01:23:18,780 -Yeah. - -3410 -01:23:19,500 --> 01:23:22,060 -The best use case for this is American model. - -3411 -01:23:22,060 --> 01:23:22,940 -Fucking American. - -3412 -01:23:23,940 --> 01:23:24,740 -That's fucking it. - -3413 -01:23:24,820 --> 01:23:25,020 -Yes. - -3414 -01:23:25,020 --> 01:23:27,680 -It shows you how key rotation actually works in the real world. - -3415 -01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:28,320 -It's like, - -3416 -01:23:28,320 --> 01:23:30,780 -this is Twitter pro for people that are not in the know. - -3417 -01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:31,440 -He, - -3418 -01:23:31,440 --> 01:23:32,600 -he got booted off Twitter. - -3419 -01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:32,980 -I don't know. - -3420 -01:23:33,060 --> 01:23:33,900 -Like 17 times. - -3421 -01:23:33,900 --> 01:23:34,620 -Every two weeks. - -3422 -01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:36,420 -And it was very easy. - -3423 -01:23:36,480 --> 01:23:37,720 -Like he comes back and it's like, - -3424 -01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:38,340 -it's me bitches. - -3425 -01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:38,920 -And, - -3426 -01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:39,340 -and you, - -3427 -01:23:39,340 --> 01:23:40,660 -you either trust that statement, - -3428 -01:23:40,660 --> 01:23:43,820 -or like someone who knows him in person will tell, - -3429 -01:23:43,820 --> 01:23:44,020 -no, - -3430 -01:23:44,020 --> 01:23:45,580 -it's actually him. - -3431 -01:23:46,300 --> 01:23:46,860 -That's it. - -3432 -01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:47,580 -I called him. - -3433 -01:23:47,660 --> 01:23:48,260 -And that's good. - -3434 -01:23:48,480 --> 01:23:48,880 -Okay. - -3435 -01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:49,380 -And boom. - -3436 -01:23:49,660 --> 01:23:50,020 -And, - -3437 -01:23:50,020 --> 01:23:50,960 -and it's, - -3438 -01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:52,460 -it's actually not that big of a deal. - -3439 -01:23:52,480 --> 01:23:53,940 -It's not that big of an issue. - -3440 -01:23:53,940 --> 01:23:54,340 -It, - -3441 -01:23:54,500 --> 01:23:55,060 -and that's, - -3442 -01:23:55,140 --> 01:23:56,960 -but that's purely speaking from an individual perspective. - -3443 -01:23:56,960 --> 01:23:57,640 -I realized like if, - -3444 -01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:00,060 -if Nike or like whatever big company, - -3445 -01:24:00,060 --> 01:24:00,700 -uh, - -3446 -01:24:00,700 --> 01:24:01,200 -gets their, - -3447 -01:24:01,280 --> 01:24:02,800 -their key hacked or whatever, - -3448 -01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:03,620 -then it's a, - -3449 -01:24:03,620 --> 01:24:04,960 -it's a different situation. - -3450 -01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:06,760 -But I think we can also get there, - -3451 -01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:07,880 -like with all the stuff that's happening, - -3452 -01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:09,060 -happening around frost. - -3453 -01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:09,560 -Yeah. - -3454 -01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:10,400 -It's just a quorum. - -3455 -01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:14,260 -And all that complexity doesn't need to live on the protocol. - -3456 -01:24:14,260 --> 01:24:14,480 -Exactly. - -3457 -01:24:14,480 --> 01:24:15,500 -How do we do signatures? - -3458 -01:24:15,500 --> 01:24:16,120 -Now do we, - -3459 -01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:17,700 -they can just take that, - -3460 -01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:19,480 -all that complexity and put it in. - -3461 -01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:22,680 -I know a company that is within, - -3462 -01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:23,200 -within us, - -3463 -01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:23,640 -because I, - -3464 -01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:24,840 -they told me when I was working on, - -3465 -01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:25,060 -on, - -3466 -01:24:25,060 --> 01:24:25,360 -on NSEC, - -3467 -01:24:25,420 --> 01:24:26,100 -on NSEC bunker, - -3468 -01:24:26,260 --> 01:24:28,720 -that they had built something like that for themselves, - -3469 -01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:33,820 -where they had social media managers that could sign as the main, - -3470 -01:24:33,820 --> 01:24:34,260 -like the, - -3471 -01:24:34,260 --> 01:24:34,680 -the key, - -3472 -01:24:34,820 --> 01:24:37,000 -but they did not have access to the key. - -3473 -01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:38,060 -And they just built it in house. - -3474 -01:24:38,060 --> 01:24:38,440 -Yeah. - -3475 -01:24:38,500 --> 01:24:39,700 -And it's not that fucking complex. - -3476 -01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:40,240 -Yeah. - -3477 -01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:40,340 -Yeah. - -3478 -01:24:40,340 --> 01:24:40,520 -Yeah. - -3479 -01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:40,700 -Yeah. - -3480 -01:24:40,700 --> 01:24:40,840 -No, - -3481 -01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:41,000 -no, - -3482 -01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:41,220 -no. - -3483 -01:24:41,220 --> 01:24:41,280 -Well, - -3484 -01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:41,700 -I mean, - -3485 -01:24:41,700 --> 01:24:43,820 -and Coinbase and like all these companies, - -3486 -01:24:43,820 --> 01:24:45,860 -they also build their own tool, - -3487 -01:24:45,860 --> 01:24:50,600 -their own solutions on how do we keep these keys so that no one guy can take it. - -3488 -01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:50,760 -Right? - -3489 -01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:50,920 -Yeah. - -3490 -01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:51,020 -Yeah. - -3491 -01:24:51,020 --> 01:24:51,240 -Sure. - -3492 -01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:51,580 -Sure. - -3493 -01:24:51,700 --> 01:24:51,840 -No, - -3494 -01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:52,180 -that's what, - -3495 -01:24:52,220 --> 01:24:53,140 -that's what you have to do in, - -3496 -01:24:53,140 --> 01:24:53,720 -in those settings. - -3497 -01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:54,460 -But again, - -3498 -01:24:54,460 --> 01:24:55,080 -I think maybe, - -3499 -01:24:55,080 --> 01:24:57,100 -maybe we'll touch on that a little bit more the next time, - -3500 -01:24:57,100 --> 01:24:58,300 -because I'm, - -3501 -01:24:58,300 --> 01:24:59,200 -I'm literally out of steam. - -3502 -01:24:59,300 --> 01:24:59,440 -I'm, - -3503 -01:24:59,440 --> 01:25:00,300 -I'm running on fumes, - -3504 -01:25:00,300 --> 01:25:05,040 -but the one last thing that I love is that this one person that was saying, - -3505 -01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:05,240 -Oh, - -3506 -01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:05,440 -no, - -3507 -01:25:05,480 --> 01:25:07,000 -there is not even trying to solve these, - -3508 -01:25:07,100 --> 01:25:07,440 -these, - -3509 -01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:08,300 -these things. - -3510 -01:25:08,660 --> 01:25:09,020 -Uh, - -3511 -01:25:09,020 --> 01:25:09,220 -they, - -3512 -01:25:09,220 --> 01:25:10,620 -they are just ignoring the problem. - -3513 -01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:13,340 -It came up in the discussion, - -3514 -01:25:13,340 --> 01:25:13,640 -the, - -3515 -01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:16,300 -the idea of social recovery and I'm out of band and, - -3516 -01:25:16,300 --> 01:25:16,580 -you know, - -3517 -01:25:16,580 --> 01:25:17,020 -like saying, - -3518 -01:25:17,060 --> 01:25:17,160 -Oh, - -3519 -01:25:17,160 --> 01:25:18,100 -this is my new end pub. - -3520 -01:25:18,100 --> 01:25:19,980 -And five of my friends say, - -3521 -01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:20,240 -Oh yeah, - -3522 -01:25:20,300 --> 01:25:21,900 -this is the Gigi's new end pub. - -3523 -01:25:22,440 --> 01:25:22,920 -Um, - -3524 -01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:25,400 -laughing at that idea saying, - -3525 -01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:27,020 -that is fucking ridiculous. - -3526 -01:25:27,260 --> 01:25:28,240 -Why would you do it? - -3527 -01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:29,460 -Like that's so stupid, - -3528 -01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:31,560 -but that's how it works and how it always works. - -3529 -01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,120 -Like if your identity actually got stolen or if you, - -3530 -01:25:34,220 --> 01:25:36,140 -if you lose all your passports or whatever, - -3531 -01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:36,440 -that's, - -3532 -01:25:36,440 --> 01:25:37,000 -that's how it works. - -3533 -01:25:37,100 --> 01:25:37,760 -That's how it works. - -3534 -01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:38,780 -You go through the, - -3535 -01:25:38,820 --> 01:25:39,860 -to the family, - -3536 -01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:40,460 -to the friends, - -3537 -01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:40,800 -whatever. - -3538 -01:25:40,940 --> 01:25:41,460 -And they will tell you, - -3539 -01:25:41,480 --> 01:25:41,580 -no, - -3540 -01:25:41,620 --> 01:25:42,580 -that's actually the person. - -3541 -01:25:42,660 --> 01:25:42,800 -Yeah. - -3542 -01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:43,040 -And so on. - -3543 -01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:44,600 -And I think a lot of people, - -3544 -01:25:44,700 --> 01:25:45,340 -and maybe we, - -3545 -01:25:45,340 --> 01:25:47,480 -we touch on this the next time or at some other point, - -3546 -01:25:47,480 --> 01:25:50,800 -a lot of people are confused about the difference. - -3547 -01:25:50,900 --> 01:25:53,040 -There is a difference between identity and authentication. - -3548 -01:25:53,420 --> 01:25:54,440 -They're not the same thing. - -3549 -01:25:54,580 --> 01:25:54,760 -Oh, - -3550 -01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:56,520 -they're absolutely not the same thing. - -3551 -01:25:56,740 --> 01:25:57,220 -And identity, - -3552 -01:25:57,360 --> 01:25:58,620 -you are not in charge of your identity. - -3553 -01:25:58,620 --> 01:25:59,100 -Really? - -3554 -01:25:59,240 --> 01:25:59,680 -That's like what, - -3555 -01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:02,400 -what all the postmodernist people are confused about as well. - -3556 -01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:03,140 -It's like, - -3557 -01:26:03,260 --> 01:26:03,700 -um, - -3558 -01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:07,120 -people will tell you who you are or what you are in some sense. - -3559 -01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:07,460 -Like in, - -3560 -01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:11,460 -the people are social creatures and your identity derives from the - -3561 -01:26:11,460 --> 01:26:12,620 -environment you're embedded in. - -3562 -01:26:12,620 --> 01:26:13,140 -And you, - -3563 -01:26:13,220 --> 01:26:14,440 -you cannot choose who you're again, - -3564 -01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:16,580 -like I made this joke already the last time, - -3565 -01:26:16,580 --> 01:26:17,840 -but the high school makes us very clear. - -3566 -01:26:17,900 --> 01:26:19,140 -You're not even in charge of your name. - -3567 -01:26:19,460 --> 01:26:20,880 -Like if you're dickface, - -3568 -01:26:20,940 --> 01:26:22,300 -then you're dickface for all of school, - -3569 -01:26:22,620 --> 01:26:22,860 -you know, - -3570 -01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:23,380 -like whatever. - -3571 -01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:23,840 -It's like, - -3572 -01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:24,960 -it's like, - -3573 -01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:25,100 -you, - -3574 -01:26:25,140 --> 01:26:26,820 -you can't tell other people what to call you, - -3575 -01:26:26,860 --> 01:26:27,260 -for example, - -3576 -01:26:27,260 --> 01:26:27,640 -like you, - -3577 -01:26:27,740 --> 01:26:30,400 -you'll get the name that whatever fits you, - -3578 -01:26:30,540 --> 01:26:31,980 -what other people think fits you. - -3579 -01:26:32,100 --> 01:26:32,300 -And so on. - -3580 -01:26:32,720 --> 01:26:32,940 -And, - -3581 -01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:33,220 -and, - -3582 -01:26:33,220 --> 01:26:33,560 -and so, - -3583 -01:26:33,620 --> 01:26:34,260 -so that's very, - -3584 -01:26:34,340 --> 01:26:35,380 -very different from authentication, - -3585 -01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:36,520 -which, - -3586 -01:26:36,580 --> 01:26:36,780 -which, - -3587 -01:26:36,940 --> 01:26:37,520 -and, - -3588 -01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:37,800 -and, - -3589 -01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:38,280 -and I, - -3590 -01:26:38,280 --> 01:26:39,300 -I think like even in, - -3591 -01:26:39,300 --> 01:26:40,360 -in an Oscar world and lots of, - -3592 -01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:41,000 -of devs, - -3593 -01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:43,620 -I feel like are quite confused about them, - -3594 -01:26:43,620 --> 01:26:43,960 -where, - -3595 -01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:44,300 -where they, - -3596 -01:26:44,300 --> 01:26:44,720 -they kind of, - -3597 -01:26:45,140 --> 01:26:45,320 -they, - -3598 -01:26:46,580 --> 01:26:49,880 -mix these concepts together in some weird way, - -3599 -01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:52,480 -or try to come up with solutions for, - -3600 -01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:53,100 -for, - -3601 -01:26:53,180 --> 01:26:53,840 -for the whole thing, - -3602 -01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:55,160 -but they only have a solution for identity, - -3603 -01:26:55,160 --> 01:26:57,820 -or they only have a solution for authentication and so on and so forth. - -3604 -01:26:58,020 --> 01:27:01,300 -So maybe that's worth exploring a little bit more because it's, - -3605 -01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:01,640 -again, - -3606 -01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:05,480 -I think it's a problem of where missing a lot of the, - -3607 -01:27:05,960 --> 01:27:07,840 -I feel like we don't have great terminology. - -3608 -01:27:08,040 --> 01:27:08,280 -Oh, - -3609 -01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:08,800 -a hundred percent. - -3610 -01:27:09,020 --> 01:27:09,420 -Absolutely. - -3611 -01:27:09,700 --> 01:27:09,820 -And, - -3612 -01:27:09,820 --> 01:27:11,040 -and it's also like, - -3613 -01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:11,260 -you know, - -3614 -01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:14,020 -pseudonymity and anonymity and all those kinds of things. - -3615 -01:27:14,020 --> 01:27:14,560 -It's like, - -3616 -01:27:14,740 --> 01:27:14,880 -we, - -3617 -01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:18,540 -some people know that there is a difference and all those kinds of stuff. - -3618 -01:27:18,900 --> 01:27:25,820 -And I think Nostar gives us a unique kind of possibility to explore all this some more and also normalize it in the sense, - -3619 -01:27:25,900 --> 01:27:27,980 -like we mentioned it briefly last time, - -3620 -01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:28,480 -I think as well. - -3621 -01:27:28,700 --> 01:27:28,880 -It's like, - -3622 -01:27:29,060 --> 01:27:29,460 -you can, - -3623 -01:27:30,340 --> 01:27:30,720 -again, - -3624 -01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:31,620 -like NSACs are free. - -3625 -01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:32,180 -You can, - -3626 -01:27:32,260 --> 01:27:32,580 -you can, - -3627 -01:27:32,640 --> 01:27:34,580 -you can reply as like a new person, - -3628 -01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:35,800 -just for this one reply. - -3629 -01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:38,080 -You can try out a client for a week. - -3630 -01:27:38,220 --> 01:27:38,620 -Just, - -3631 -01:27:38,700 --> 01:27:38,920 -just, - -3632 -01:27:39,160 --> 01:27:39,740 -just because, - -3633 -01:27:40,060 --> 01:27:45,140 -but just because you don't want to potentially compromise your main account or do something stupid with your main and those kinds of things. - -3634 -01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:45,720 -And, - -3635 -01:27:45,780 --> 01:27:46,020 -and, - -3636 -01:27:46,140 --> 01:27:48,060 -and I think it's very much, - -3637 -01:27:48,180 --> 01:27:52,480 -very much worth exploring all this because it's, - -3638 -01:27:52,480 --> 01:27:55,900 -it's just a fact of the new system. - -3639 -01:27:55,900 --> 01:28:03,840 -And it's very different from what Facebook or Google or Apple tries you to believe that you have one identity. - -3640 -01:28:03,840 --> 01:28:04,780 -You are one thing. - -3641 -01:28:04,860 --> 01:28:05,540 -That's only you. - -3642 -01:28:05,700 --> 01:28:05,780 -And, - -3643 -01:28:05,780 --> 01:28:06,040 -and it, - -3644 -01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:07,580 -and it's all encompassing, - -3645 -01:28:07,580 --> 01:28:08,400 -you know? - -3646 -01:28:08,460 --> 01:28:08,800 -And I, - -3647 -01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:13,180 -I think that's extremely misguided from the get go because identity is inherently prismatic. - -3648 -01:28:13,180 --> 01:28:14,040 -It's like you, - -3649 -01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:15,400 -you are not one thing. - -3650 -01:28:16,060 --> 01:28:16,540 -And, - -3651 -01:28:16,540 --> 01:28:17,080 -and again, - -3652 -01:28:17,140 --> 01:28:17,440 -like I, - -3653 -01:28:17,480 --> 01:28:19,060 -I always use the same examples, - -3654 -01:28:19,060 --> 01:28:19,500 -but if you, - -3655 -01:28:19,500 --> 01:28:20,040 -if you go to, - -3656 -01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:20,940 -to Vegas for, - -3657 -01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:22,440 -to Las Vegas for the weekend, - -3658 -01:28:22,440 --> 01:28:23,920 -you might be Steve or whatever, - -3659 -01:28:24,100 --> 01:28:24,320 -you know? - -3660 -01:28:24,380 --> 01:28:24,620 -It's like, - -3661 -01:28:25,060 --> 01:28:27,340 -that's always how identity worked, - -3662 -01:28:27,440 --> 01:28:27,700 -you know? - -3663 -01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:28,440 -And again, - -3664 -01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:28,840 -like we, - -3665 -01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:29,780 -we have to, - -3666 -01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:36,820 -I think we have the opportunity now to model cyberspace accordingly, - -3667 -01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:41,940 -model cyberspace on reality and not make something up. - -3668 -01:28:43,180 --> 01:28:47,180 -like Facebook or whatever and force everyone into the made up world. - -3669 -01:28:47,540 --> 01:28:48,640 -And I think that's, - -3670 -01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:52,140 -that's kind of why I'm so motivated to, - -3671 -01:28:52,260 --> 01:28:52,480 -to, - -3672 -01:28:52,540 --> 01:28:54,960 -to talk about these things because I think we can actually do it. - -3673 -01:28:55,140 --> 01:28:55,260 -Yeah. - -3674 -01:28:55,260 --> 01:28:55,460 -Yeah. - -3675 -01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:55,760 -Yeah, - -3676 -01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:56,160 -absolutely. - -3677 -01:28:56,280 --> 01:28:57,540 -But the devs also have to, - -3678 -01:28:57,620 --> 01:28:58,640 -the people building the stuff, - -3679 -01:28:58,760 --> 01:28:59,320 -they, - -3680 -01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:04,160 -they need to understand this properly and understand the problem space properly. - -3681 -01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:04,560 -And to, - -3682 -01:29:04,620 --> 01:29:04,860 -to, - -3683 -01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:05,600 -to follow up to, - -3684 -01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:06,560 -to what you said about, - -3685 -01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:07,080 -oh, - -3686 -01:29:07,080 --> 01:29:08,280 -we're not even trying to solve this problem. - -3687 -01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:12,240 -It's fine to not try and solve an impossible problem. - -3688 -01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:13,980 -It's the only, - -3689 -01:29:14,200 --> 01:29:15,440 -the only way to go. - -3690 -01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:15,940 -Yeah. - -3691 -01:29:16,180 --> 01:29:18,800 -You will expend all your energy and time. - -3692 -01:29:18,940 --> 01:29:19,220 -It's like, - -3693 -01:29:19,500 --> 01:29:19,660 -don't, - -3694 -01:29:19,740 --> 01:29:20,380 -and it will, - -3695 -01:29:20,540 --> 01:29:21,300 -you will not make a thing. - -3696 -01:29:21,380 --> 01:29:21,700 -Don't, - -3697 -01:29:21,700 --> 01:29:22,120 -don't, - -3698 -01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:24,880 -don't waste your time trying to build a perpetual motion machine, - -3699 -01:29:24,980 --> 01:29:25,420 -for example. - -3700 -01:29:25,580 --> 01:29:25,900 -It's like, - -3701 -01:29:25,940 --> 01:29:26,220 -you know, - -3702 -01:29:26,580 --> 01:29:27,460 -have you heard that Vitalik? - -3703 -01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:31,700 -That might be a good place to end. - -3704 -01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:32,280 -I'm, - -3705 -01:29:32,280 --> 01:29:33,180 -I'm completely done. - -3706 -01:29:33,300 --> 01:29:33,560 -Yeah. - -3707 -01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:34,060 -Me too. - -3708 -01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:34,900 -Any last words? - -3709 -01:29:35,220 --> 01:29:35,440 -No, - -3710 -01:29:35,520 --> 01:29:36,060 -I think we're good. - -3711 -01:29:36,060 --> 01:29:37,260 -Oh yeah. - -3712 -01:29:37,380 --> 01:29:37,840 -I tweeted, - -3713 -01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:39,200 -I tweeted a few days ago. - -3714 -01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:40,520 -You're, - -3715 -01:29:40,700 --> 01:29:41,740 -you are not your NPUB. - -3716 -01:29:42,580 --> 01:29:45,260 -And I was going for this discussion. - -3717 -01:29:45,600 --> 01:29:45,920 -You aren't. - -3718 -01:29:46,180 --> 01:29:46,560 -You aren't. - -3719 -01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:48,100 -You absolutely aren't. - -3720 -01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:49,600 -Your NPUB is a pointer. - -3721 -01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:50,180 -That's it. - -3722 -01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:51,200 -Maybe. - -3723 -01:29:51,700 --> 01:29:52,140 -But you know, - -3724 -01:29:52,260 --> 01:29:53,240 -some people ask me, - -3725 -01:29:53,620 --> 01:29:54,520 -am I my NSEC? - -3726 -01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:56,220 -Thinking that that's, - -3727 -01:29:56,300 --> 01:29:57,180 -that's what I was going for. - -3728 -01:29:57,240 --> 01:29:58,400 -And you're not your NSEC either. - -3729 -01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:00,420 -I have many NSECs. - -3730 -01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:01,280 -I mean, - -3731 -01:30:01,380 --> 01:30:02,320 -people would only know. - -3732 -01:30:02,420 --> 01:30:03,880 -Nostra is literally like 20 people. - -3733 -01:30:06,480 --> 01:30:07,040 -All right, - -3734 -01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:07,360 -Pablo. - -3735 -01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:07,900 -All right. - -3736 -01:30:07,940 --> 01:30:09,460 -Let's continue this next week. - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/04 - Ecash Fixes 402 - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/04 - Ecash Fixes 402 - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index a5b2bb6c..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/04 - Ecash Fixes 402 - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,36 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "Ecash Fixes 402" (Episode 04) - -**Context:** A meandering walk that unpacks why the web's missing _HTTP 402 Payment Required_ is finally solvable—and why blinded e-cash + Lightning + Nostr form the missing money-layer for a saner, user-sovereign internet. - -## Core Themes & Insights - -1. **Micropayments Liberate the Web** - • 402 was reserved in 1992 for "digital cash"—three decades later sats fulfil the spec. - • Sub-cent transfers unlock pay-per-second, pay-per-byte, and ad-free business models. - • Value-for-value zaps already prove the concept in the wild. - -2. **Blinded Custodianship & Privacy** - • Ecash mints operate _blindly_—they cannot see users or balances, eliminating KYC drag. - • Multiple small mints outperform a single mega-bank; failure of one ≠ systemic collapse. - • "Blinded compute" and zero-knowledge proofs will extend the idea to storage & AI. - -3. **Agency vs. Centralisation** - • Early web utopians conflated information with wisdom; platforms filled the gap by monetising attention. - • Bitcoin, Nostr, Ecash re-introduce agency: anyone can run a node, mint, relay, or paywall. - • Systems that _reward symbiosis_ (open protocols) beat those that _require monopolies_ (walled gardens). - -4. **Technology Isn't Neutral—Ethos Matters** - • Like literacy or personal vehicles, certain tech embeds freedom (agency) by design. - • Proof-of-Work anchors a neutral arrow of time; credit rails always regress to guns & gatekeepers. - -## Implications for Sovereign Engineering Cohorts - -• **Ship the Money-Layer:** Cohort projects should default to sats & ecash instead of ad models or VC cheques. -• **Rug-Pull Resistance:** Local mints + Lightning fallback mean builders aren't beholden to Stripe/Twitter APIs. -• **Market-Rate Learning:** Pay-per-use infrastructure (compute, storage, AI inference) lets hackers prototype cheaply, then scale organically. -• **Shared Vocabulary:** Terms like _blinded custodian_, _symbiotic protocol_, and _no-global-truth_ help teams reason about sovereignty. -• **Walking & Talking:** Just as cohort walks surface insights, pay-per-second primitives surface sustainable internet economics. - -> "Increase agency, then responsibility follows."  —Episode takeaway - -Episode 04 weaves a cautionary history of the internet with a pragmatic blueprint: pair Bitcoin-denominated ecash with open protocols so the next iteration of the web funds itself—one sat at a time. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/04 - Ecash Fixes 402.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/04 - Ecash Fixes 402.srt deleted file mode 100644 index 4916cfa8..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/04 - Ecash Fixes 402.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,3948 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,480 -there we go i found an open source an open source voice recorder it actually works - -2 -00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,080 -all right i think that's it are we on yeah that should work all right i'll trust it again - -3 -00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:22,540 -which didn't serve me well so far every single time i said like i trusted something went wrong - -4 -00:00:22,540 --> 00:00:25,880 -and i had to do some manual recovery - -5 -00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,480 -but we made it that far - -6 -00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:36,380 -all right yeah let's just go there - -7 -00:00:36,380 --> 00:00:46,760 -and we'll we'll see where our feet and our conversation leads us okay so yeah i think - -8 -00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:52,560 -we both agree that the internet is fucked i really like the title that you gave one of your talks - -9 -00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:59,080 -which was the internet is fucked yeah i completely agree the thing is the internet is the best thing - -10 -00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:05,320 -that we've ever invented and it's so fucked because our expectations were so high about it - -11 -00:01:05,320 --> 00:01:14,660 -i remember this from my youth and childhood when the overarching theme was that the internet is going - -12 -00:01:14,660 --> 00:01:23,240 -to be this massive intense uh technology that's going to unite us and elevate us the human spirit - -13 -00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:30,680 -will reach a new level and the sphere free access to information free access to knowledge - -14 -00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:37,640 -free everything at your fingertips yes and like uh kind of a uprising of the human soul - -15 -00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:44,620 -yeah to the powers that be yeah and and now we have memes and porn and misinformation memes porn - -16 -00:01:44,620 --> 00:01:51,500 -misinformation violence political manipulation crazy people finding each other on the internet - -17 -00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:58,820 -starting cults yeah i mean i think as i as i'm getting like i don't want to say as i'm getting older - -18 -00:01:58,820 --> 00:02:07,120 -but looking at how things turned out and i become less disappointed about it at the same time though - -19 -00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,440 -so i'm kind of finding my peace with the developments that we've been seeing because - -20 -00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:19,400 -maybe um i think maybe our expectations have been a bit too naive about how things going to work out and - -21 -00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:25,300 -maybe just maybe the things that we're seeing now as the internet perpetrates or penetrates the entire - -22 -00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:31,840 -world the frictions that we see that you just mentioned maybe are just part of the process - -23 -00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:39,600 -and you know it's like you know a child expecting like the the gift and then you get the gift and - -24 -00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:44,720 -you realize it's not like what you imagine it to be yeah but you still get something out of it and - -25 -00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:50,520 -you only when you grow up you see that it was something actually towards that goal that you - -26 -00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:56,940 -anticipated and i'm kind of thinking maybe for example misinformation or cults or just you know - -27 -00:02:56,940 --> 00:03:05,740 -the crazy people finding each other maybe that's an unavoidable point in the path on the path towards - -28 -00:03:05,740 --> 00:03:11,700 -this original vision what the internet would have brought us you know yeah i mean i think it's also - -29 -00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:16,240 -it's also good that crazy people find each other i mean we found each other on the internet as well - -30 -00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:22,440 -correct i mean we're also crazy people but it's it's the the thing is that um you know it's always - -31 -00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:30,820 -a two-sided coin or a you know like a uh uh what's the saying with the sword yeah double-sided - -32 -00:03:30,820 --> 00:03:35,720 -double-edged sword double-edged sword that's right yeah and and so you can't have the good without - -33 -00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:41,160 -the bad and i think all all the wisdom traditions will tell you this as well you know and that's what i - -34 -00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:48,140 -think is that i think that was the main mistake that the early internet people they equated - -35 -00:03:48,140 --> 00:03:54,580 -information with knowledge and with wisdom and those are three very distinct things like if you're - -36 -00:03:54,580 --> 00:03:58,220 -lucky you get from information to knowledge and if you're very lucky you get from knowledge to wisdom - -37 -00:03:58,220 --> 00:04:05,180 -but but it doesn't come just because and it doesn't come for free and i think we were very naive - -38 -00:04:05,180 --> 00:04:11,000 -and what i kind of hope that i mean in some sense we're trying to build the next version of the - -39 -00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,220 -internet right now in some sense yes and what i'm worried about is that we're going to make the same - -40 -00:04:15,220 --> 00:04:19,100 -mistakes so i really hope that we're not going to make the same mistakes and so i don't want to be - -41 -00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:24,640 -utopic about you know bitcoin and oscar and e-cash and all those kind of things because it's not - -42 -00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:30,140 -going to be utopia i i mentioned i mentioned as many times already but i really like john riveki's line - -43 -00:04:30,140 --> 00:04:37,640 -neither nostalgia nor utopia so so both of those are misguided we have to learn from the past and - -44 -00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:44,640 -extract the good things from the past and kind of aim for have a utopic vision in some sense but we're - -45 -00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,600 -never gonna have any utopia ever and i think that's where the early internet people they got a lot of - -46 -00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:55,840 -things right like net neutrality for example um which of course you know it's debatable whether we - -47 -00:04:55,840 --> 00:05:01,660 -still have that and so on um but i think they got a lot of things wrong as well which which was kind - -48 -00:05:01,660 --> 00:05:09,460 -of you know being convinced that we will usher in the utopia yes and i mean looking back at the - -49 -00:05:09,460 --> 00:05:17,820 -cypherpunks the cypherpunk movement itself uh defined itself through uh making everyone aware of the - -50 -00:05:17,820 --> 00:05:25,580 -terrifying world that we could end up in if the internet if the world digitizes and we yeah we become - -51 -00:05:25,580 --> 00:05:33,380 -more connected it's not a utopic vision per se um it is even stronger i think i would say is the - -52 -00:05:33,380 --> 00:05:39,240 -dystopic vision is the thing that you're trying to avoid the insights that speaking of things trying - -53 -00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,640 -to avoid i was like let's walk here i'm sure there isn't it's going to be it's not going to be that - -54 -00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,440 -noisy and there's like you know a jackhammer like it's it's really terrible instruction everywhere - -55 -00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:54,880 -so let's see these mics they are pretty good all right so that's closed off anyway so fuck it let's - -56 -00:05:54,880 --> 00:06:00,160 -turn around because i wanted i wanted to to get up there but everything's closed okay so that's - -57 -00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:06,300 -construction let's just for the listeners this is uninteresting we're just turning around in circles - -58 -00:06:06,300 --> 00:06:10,700 -basically walking in circles that's gonna be the the future of the internet it's like - -59 -00:06:10,700 --> 00:06:18,940 -so the long arc of history is getting back to the to the warnings the early warning signs i think - -60 -00:06:18,940 --> 00:06:27,260 -like they're also in bitcoin you'll find some of the i think interesting voices uh made us aware of - -61 -00:06:27,260 --> 00:06:32,780 -the dangers of a hyperbitconized world for example oh yeah not everything should be purely optimistic - -62 -00:06:32,780 --> 00:06:39,860 -you need to think about what happens let's say if nation states adopt bitcoin and uh use it - -63 -00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:45,540 -as a weapon to oppress their own people yeah it can be it's not like just because the tech is there - -64 -00:06:45,540 --> 00:06:51,020 -everything will turn out fine yeah there is the the the idea and the fundamentals of the tech are the - -65 -00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:58,260 -most important i think we all agree on that but obviously the way it's implemented is a whole like - -66 -00:06:58,260 --> 00:07:05,220 -it's it's undefined until it's done yeah yeah yeah and i think it's it's i mean that's a - -67 -00:07:05,220 --> 00:07:12,420 -that's just kind of by definition always true you know it's but i flip flop on this because it's like - -68 -00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:17,160 -you know it's just a tool technology it's just a tool it depends on how you use it and so on and you - -69 -00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:22,720 -have i don't know let's let's take nuclear power you know like you can have uh clean abundant energy - -70 -00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:28,480 -forever and you you have nuclear weapons it's the same tech kind of you know you have a great kitchen - -71 -00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:34,920 -knife it's like you can murder someone with it or you can cook a great meal and and and so so the - -72 -00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,160 -technologists will tell you that technology is neutral but the reason why i flip flop on this is - -73 -00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:45,220 -is because i feel like there's some technologies that aren't neutral like reading and writing for - -74 -00:07:45,220 --> 00:07:49,640 -example i don't think are like it's it's i don't think it's super neutral in some sense or i i don't - -75 -00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:55,520 -know i'm again i haven't made up my mind on this yet but the the reason why i bring it up is because - -76 -00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,760 -i think the - -77 -00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:05,540 -there is such a thing as a certain ethos embedded in various technologies like the car for example - -78 -00:08:05,540 --> 00:08:11,020 -there's there's there are arguments that that personal transportation is what in part would - -79 -00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:15,420 -brought out the brought down the soviet union because it's basically it's hyper personalized you - -80 -00:08:15,420 --> 00:08:19,580 -know it's like you can go anywhere you just you fill up your car and you can go anywhere it's it's - -81 -00:08:19,580 --> 00:08:23,820 -freedom technology in that sense you increase the ability of people to move you increase agency - -82 -00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:27,680 -you increase agency and that's why why i i brought reading and writing as well because - -83 -00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:33,960 -reading also increases agency in the sense that that it expands your horizon and it expands your - -84 -00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,060 -knowledge and those kind of things and i think i think it's undeniable that there is a certain - -85 -00:08:38,060 --> 00:08:43,600 -ethos embedded in bitcoin for example and it truly changes people i mean i've seen this over and over and - -86 -00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:49,100 -over again and it changed me as well and like that's why lots of people wrote about this and and i think - -87 -00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:54,800 -that's this by now this is a known fact and so that's why i'm not sure if technology if all technology - -88 -00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:00,840 -is truly neutral in some sense but i don't know so my my the reason why i bring all this up is because - -89 -00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:09,560 -i my hope is that we can have a kind of and i'm not even sure if technological is the right word like - -90 -00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:16,780 -i was about to say that we can have a technological substrate that brings more agency and thus also more - -91 -00:09:16,780 --> 00:09:23,080 -responsibility to society but i'm not sure if it's the right word it's like i mean there's a reason - -92 -00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:33,020 -why we go through great lengths to you know to to the things we have to do so that almost everyone - -93 -00:09:33,020 --> 00:09:38,980 -in society can rewrite it's like insane it's insane it takes like years and years and years of education - -94 -00:09:38,980 --> 00:09:45,580 -it's like our whole society is geared towards this you know towards literacy and numeracy and so on - -95 -00:09:45,580 --> 00:09:52,160 -so so we obviously think that this is valuable and we obviously think that this is beneficial - -96 -00:09:52,160 --> 00:10:00,620 -to everyone and and and so with the with the internet right now for example we don't do anything - -97 -00:10:00,620 --> 00:10:06,400 -like that and someone just a couple days ago brought up an excellent point that the current where the - -98 -00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:11,600 -internet is trending right now with internet with tiktok and all all this bullshit it's completely - -99 -00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:18,520 -passive it's like i'm here now entertain me yes give me all the recommendations even like amazon - -100 -00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,860 -shopping is like that you don't even you know go out to look for the thing that you need you're just - -101 -00:10:23,860 --> 00:10:30,440 -like yeah please dear algorithm tell me what i need on average the agency of the individual - -102 -00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:37,200 -is on average is reduced at the number of people with higher agency probably increases but as more and - -103 -00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:43,840 -more people use the internet we ended up in a point where most people are pure consumers that was - -104 -00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:52,260 -always the case that most people will be consumers but um i think we both can agree that - -105 -00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:59,740 -the morality of the question whether something is good or bad only depends on the human itself - -106 -00:10:59,740 --> 00:11:08,800 -technology itself just can never exist in a pure vacuum it has no meaning in a pure vacuum it always - -107 -00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:15,020 -needs to be applied for human and whether it's used for human good or human bad depends on the - -108 -00:11:15,020 --> 00:11:20,960 -individual situation i think we we can all agree on that so the the thing itself is neither good - -109 -00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:27,480 -nor bad i'm i'm a strong proponent of stoic philosophy and stoic philosophy basically dictates - -110 -00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:36,180 -that also technology and everything outside of your control has no moral meaning the fact that it can - -111 -00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:44,100 -be used by a totalitarian regime to control its people and the same technology can be used by the - -112 -00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:49,100 -people to topple the totalitarian regime shows that very very distinctly very obviously - -113 -00:11:49,100 --> 00:12:00,080 -yeah yeah i like the i like the stoic thought uh you know basically it's it's it's it's in in eastern - -114 -00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:06,740 -philosophy as well right where it's you know if if you can do something about it then do the thing - -115 -00:12:06,740 --> 00:12:11,520 -and stop worrying about it and if you can't do something about it then worrying about it won't do it - -116 -00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:23,380 -any good right same same thing but yeah i i mean my my hope is kind of that with what we've learned - -117 -00:12:23,380 --> 00:12:28,900 -now from the current iteration of the internet and i i view i view i mean this is still all ongoing - -118 -00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:34,800 -and it's like you know ai is like proliferating and everything is algorithmically driven and it's - -119 -00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:42,300 -kind of it's in some sense i hope that we'll build stuff that allows those who want to - -120 -00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:49,460 -position themselves in the driver's seat to be back in the driver's seat and actually have a say - -121 -00:12:49,460 --> 00:12:56,300 -in kind of what happens to their money what happens to their compute what happens like how they - -122 -00:12:56,300 --> 00:13:02,800 -like have agency in cyberspace basically yes and increase the number of agents also like yeah we will - -123 -00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:08,540 -always there will always be something new that enables those who adapt it first to gain more - -124 -00:13:08,540 --> 00:13:14,740 -power and influence and what i find interesting is all the technological breaks that we encounter on - -125 -00:13:14,740 --> 00:13:23,820 -the way um sometimes equal the playing field again yeah right now it's ai it doesn't i mean it's - -126 -00:13:23,820 --> 00:13:30,380 -ambivalent i think because you can see that the larger companies that were you know uh developing this - -127 -00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:37,260 -technologies such as google amazon maybe apple as well they have a head start yeah but at the same - -128 -00:13:37,260 --> 00:13:44,720 -time the models are getting so much faster and more efficient that suddenly like thousands and - -129 -00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:50,560 -thousands of new people can build products that really rival those big ones yeah you know that's - -130 -00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:55,020 -the best thing that can happen that's like that's the that's really the best thing that can happen - -131 -00:13:55,020 --> 00:14:01,580 -because there is no other moral direction as we have discussed before there's no ai is not going - -132 -00:14:01,580 --> 00:14:08,500 -to be just good yeah but we can increase the chance of it being good by making sure that more people have - -133 -00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:16,140 -access to it and more people can use it to fulfill their dreams and their goals instead of like the few - -134 -00:14:16,140 --> 00:14:22,560 -one company dictating already have their goals already know where things need to go to to benefit - -135 -00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:29,940 -themselves yeah yeah yeah i think it's it's interesting to watch this happen over and over - -136 -00:14:29,940 --> 00:14:38,260 -again that that kind of uh you know like the the cost gets driven down and and also the open models now - -137 -00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:43,080 -catching up and stuff gets smaller and easier and cheaper and that means more people can use it and - -138 -00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,120 -have access to it that's the most exciting thing and the same thing happened also with bitcoin yeah - -139 -00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,960 -absolutely the banking system the entire finance anything that has to do with money like literally - -140 -00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:58,740 -anything from payments to saving to whatever you want to come up with 15 years ago there were maybe - -141 -00:14:58,740 --> 00:15:04,400 -like you know hundreds of entities in the world that could do those things yeah now we have hundreds - -142 -00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:10,600 -of thousands of people who can build this and deploy this and just go with it because of bitcoin - -143 -00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:16,560 -because we have like completely equalized the access to financial systems to find to financial - -144 -00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:22,480 -operations on the internet and we're going to see the same with intelligence hopefully like actually - -145 -00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:28,220 -like i'm so impressed with by what's happening one year ago i remember this very clearly that i said - -146 -00:15:28,220 --> 00:15:34,040 -to someone it's like i don't think that we'll be able to build uh you know that we'll have - -147 -00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:41,380 -competitive on-device ai because of the big of this huge gap between large data centers and the local - -148 -00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:48,100 -llms that people have been using one year ago and this has changed now like a couple months ago i was - -149 -00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:56,000 -telling someone else the same i did the same uh wrong prediction by saying now we're in this regime of - -150 -00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:03,400 -um excuse me what is called like the the thinking models um the ones that you know first produce - -151 -00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,700 -uh the chain of thoughts that's that's what it's called like chain of thoughts models and then you - -152 -00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:15,180 -make the actual uh synthesis of data yeah and i was like convinced this is a new paradigm this is going - -153 -00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:20,860 -to you know win over the old paradigm which turned out to be true now everyone does thinking models but i - -154 -00:16:20,860 --> 00:16:28,920 -thought because it uses so much energy local llms will never be able to compete with large data - -155 -00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:35,780 -centers that now offer this uh you know prediction time compute basically uh that that requires so much - -156 -00:16:35,780 --> 00:16:43,640 -compute during prediction and deep seek v3 just came out you know a month ago and just shattered that - -157 -00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:50,180 -prediction again so it's like this force of equalizing is the most the strongest force - -158 -00:16:50,180 --> 00:16:56,360 -that that that i can think of it really like on an economic level forces everyone to rethink - -159 -00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:01,800 -what they've been doing and adjust to the new status quo and i like that's why i'm so in love - -160 -00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,340 -i mean technology that's that's what that's what free markets usually do right but but i i feel like - -161 -00:17:06,340 --> 00:17:11,600 -not every technology works like that and not all systems work like that and i feel like we have to be - -162 -00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:19,440 -i briefly uh touched with this on on on pablo in one of the conversations um that we have to - -163 -00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:26,200 -be very careful to distinguish with stuff and systems that gets better over time which is what - -164 -00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:31,980 -you just described it gets more uh you know more democratic to use the term over time more people - -165 -00:17:31,980 --> 00:17:36,900 -will have more access and so on and other things that have a centralizing tendency that centralize - -166 -00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:43,540 -over time and can get kind of worse over time it's like um i don't know i feel do you see it in a - -167 -00:17:43,540 --> 00:17:49,120 -similar way or do you think it's always going to be kind of nature works in a way that it's it's - -168 -00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:55,800 -automatically tending towards the good no i don't i don't think that it's uh it's an automatic thing - -169 -00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:01,840 -there are systems that get you know that benefit from centralization some things just scale better - -170 -00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,980 -when you centralize them and that's like the opposing force to what i just described - -171 -00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:13,420 -um and network things are very good examples of that social networks are like the best example of - -172 -00:18:13,420 --> 00:18:18,400 -that it's it's known as the network effect yeah the more people participate in a network the more - -173 -00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:25,360 -valuable the network becomes that means like inherent to the way this system works means that competition - -174 -00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:30,540 -is really hard to bootstrap you can make a social network with your five friends but it's not going to - -175 -00:18:30,540 --> 00:18:37,280 -do anything sure i mean that that was the that was the bane of uh like every single time uh bitcoin - -176 -00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,300 -has tried to move away from bitcoin twitter it didn't work because of network effects i think we're - -177 -00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:47,580 -now now with nostr it's the first time where it has a chance of working yeah and i agree and uh with - -178 -00:18:47,580 --> 00:18:55,380 -nostr we've we've kind of unlocked one thing that the closed systems will never be able to unlock - -179 -00:18:55,380 --> 00:19:01,400 -because they cannot cooperate in their they don't have synergies in their dna they must compete yeah - -180 -00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,280 -this is the only thing that keeps them alive yeah is the competition they must steal each other's - -181 -00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,680 -uses from each other forever because they cannot transition into a different model yeah many people - -182 -00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:17,360 -have tried that it's why jack dorsey left twitter at the end yeah it's why so many protocols in the - -183 -00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:22,500 -past that were supposed to be adopted by you know the large players for example facebook or meta - -184 -00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:29,260 -adopted 80 proto uh for for their instagram twitter clone whatever it's called and it's like it's - -185 -00:19:29,260 --> 00:19:35,760 -irrelevant no one interrupts with them no one even you can't you kind of just with blue sky like the - -186 -00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:44,040 -same to to you know mention the b word it's it's if you if you need like uh billions of dollars to run - -187 -00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:50,940 -one node then no one will ever interrupt it's like it's it's not an open it's it's open in name only - -188 -00:19:50,940 --> 00:19:56,140 -right it's like you you need you need so much money to run the single master node that is required of - -189 -00:19:56,140 --> 00:20:02,880 -the system that you just can't it's just like you know try joining the the swift node banking system - -190 -00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,820 -you know it's like yes it's it's you can in theory but you need like billions of dollars and we are - -191 -00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:13,520 -doing it with noster we are literally doing it with not with noster it's like my same nsec i can use it - -192 -00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:21,220 -to stream videos i can sell stuff with shopster i can use it as my wallet on noster i can like i can - -193 -00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:25,980 -do so many things with the same identity now and all of these systems benefit from each other yeah - -194 -00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:31,400 -because they have not been founded on this premise of becoming the big thing yeah none of these - -195 -00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:38,040 -small subsystems of noster want to become the only thing that is around because they kind of - -196 -00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:44,140 -you know they know that noster will fail so their entire system will fail if they are the only thing - -197 -00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:49,400 -yeah right so even like let's take primal as an example primal is like the most walled garden - -198 -00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,860 -experience that you'll get on noster and it's also sometimes makes compromises you know on on - -199 -00:20:54,860 --> 00:21:02,120 -decentralization and whatnot like people know that but even primal knows exactly that if only primal is - -200 -00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:06,460 -used at the end of the day everything else breaks yeah none of their business models will work out - -201 -00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:12,200 -like we've we've found the system in which synergies are rewarded yeah exactly it's the same thing in - -202 -00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:17,320 -bitcoin like i look at the bitcoin space and i see all these different companies and i've never seen - -203 -00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,660 -this in my life before we are all in the same boat you can feel that people think that they're in the - -204 -00:21:22,660 --> 00:21:29,900 -same team you have competing companies that produce for example like two wallet providers that both - -205 -00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:39,700 -compete for number of users maybe like but both of them know that they both improve the bitcoin - -206 -00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:44,800 -ecosystem with their products yeah and everyone's working on the same mission bitcoin fails we all - -207 -00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,900 -fail yeah i think i think that's a perfect way to put the incentives out there it's new it's never - -208 -00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:55,900 -been done before it's so exciting to witness this yeah no i think i think that's what what the - -209 -00:21:55,900 --> 00:22:02,960 -the the current like platform style building of internet systems is like it's it's it's pure - -210 -00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:09,060 -competition basically without any any symbiosis and we had no underlying substrate that allowed for - -211 -00:22:09,060 --> 00:22:14,840 -symbiosis no and i think if you look at nature like the the most successful systems are symbiotic - -212 -00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,260 -systems it's like nature is full of symbiotic relationships that's what a lot of the you know like - -213 -00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:26,920 -uh i i feel like a lot of people gloss over this fact that it's not all the jungle is not all - -214 -00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,740 -like competition competition and like only the strongest will survive and all those kind of - -215 -00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:35,720 -things i mean in that case we would have probably only one single species left at the end of the day - -216 -00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:47,480 -like if that were the case yeah no i i i i but i think coming back to the you know stuff gets better - -217 -00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:54,800 -over time and stuff gets worse over time uh what are your thoughts on what still i feel like is the - -218 -00:22:54,800 --> 00:23:01,340 -main criticism in in bitcoin especially from outsiders but also also like some some people - -219 -00:23:01,340 --> 00:23:06,720 -that know a lot about bitcoin will tell you that you know mining is centralized lightning will centralize - -220 -00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:13,980 -over time uh um like cashew is a terrible idea because who will run the mints and we'll only have - -221 -00:23:13,980 --> 00:23:18,720 -a couple of big mints that they will be like banks or what have you what's your what's your response to - -222 -00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:26,760 -all of that i mean um i let's steal minute for a second uh with lightning i think we have a good - -223 -00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:34,340 -example of a system where the network effect again plays uh has a strong strong effect on how the how the - -224 -00:23:34,340 --> 00:23:41,640 -system develops in you know this in network theory the stronger hub becomes the more efficient the system - -225 -00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,940 -becomes right so there is an incentive to centralize in lightning this is just simply - -226 -00:23:45,940 --> 00:23:54,100 -true and we've been seeing it and you can measure it in in lightning and you see it happen but the the - -227 -00:23:54,100 --> 00:24:03,660 -the important point in lightning is that it allows you to participate in the system without asking for - -228 -00:24:03,660 --> 00:24:07,780 -anyone's permission yeah and i know this phrase is being said over and over again permission that's lost - -229 -00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:13,460 -its meaning yeah it's being said over and over again but i just want to you know make this more - -230 -00:24:13,460 --> 00:24:19,300 -concrete and uh how this and make this more concrete and show how this specifically applies to lightning - -231 -00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:28,780 -as as an l2 system also different from others lightning is the only thing that we have that invites - -232 -00:24:28,780 --> 00:24:35,440 -everyone to join without signing up anywhere so you can spin anyone invites anyone anyone anyone's - -233 -00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:41,140 -join we know mathematically impossible to invite everyone yes correct like if i said everyone then i - -234 -00:24:41,140 --> 00:24:49,840 -need to correct myself there so um lightning is the only decentralized layer two system so even if - -235 -00:24:49,840 --> 00:25:00,880 -the the incentives drive it slowly towards decentralization uh sorry drive it mildly to centralization - -236 -00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:07,460 -that means that doesn't mean that you cannot run your own node and connect to the system and - -237 -00:25:07,460 --> 00:25:11,620 -offer an alternative to a subsystem or something like that i think there is also an important - -238 -00:25:11,620 --> 00:25:18,720 -difference between a centralizing force and a monopolizing force right because if you fuck up - -239 -00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,940 -you're dead immediately and someone else will take your place and that's not true in the monopoly - -240 -00:25:22,940 --> 00:25:28,880 -but even if you're the biggest player and so on oh my lord we're good we're almost getting run over - -241 -00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:35,900 -we're actually getting run over by a truck we are still alive all right okay thank you - -242 -00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:42,800 -so yeah this is this is the exciting thing about recording a podcast in the wild that's why that's why - -243 -00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:48,140 -that's why most people uh are are pusses and build a studio and hide in the studio no no we don't need - -244 -00:25:48,140 --> 00:25:51,200 -they can't take the the jungle of the street - -245 -00:25:51,200 --> 00:26:00,700 -but yeah i think i think that's an and the reason why i want to have all these conversations is because - -246 -00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:06,040 -again i feel like we are missing the vocabulary the right way to talk about those things because - -247 -00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:11,260 -there is a big difference between between centralization and monopolization there is a big difference - -248 -00:26:11,260 --> 00:26:17,980 -just like for example like just two days ago we talked about um custodians and so on and it's the - -249 -00:26:17,980 --> 00:26:24,640 -first time i i stumbled into the phrase of a blinded custodian a blinded custodian is distinctly - -250 -00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:30,240 -different from a regular custodian and i think i think just having that word just having that phrase - -251 -00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,540 -blinded custodian makes it so much easier for me to talk about those things and think through these - -252 -00:26:34,540 --> 00:26:40,500 -things and so so i i think you you hit on something let's take the example of cashew there - -253 -00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:48,340 -uh because like that's kind of that was the dream for such a long time is okay so we have custodians - -254 -00:26:48,340 --> 00:26:52,900 -we have blinded custodians we can talk about the specific meaning of the blinded custodian later - -255 -00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:58,520 -but you know an e-cash system with a blinded custodian that offers you great privacy - -256 -00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:06,420 -with a single entity that gives you that service let's say a bank a one single bank would - -257 -00:27:06,420 --> 00:27:13,360 -would develop like an e-cash system and provide this for their users that bank could fuck up it - -258 -00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:19,900 -could blow up it could fractionally fractional do fractional reserve and then like all its users - -259 -00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:27,640 -would be you know left holding the bag for example so it could just break very easily what we have - -260 -00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:34,500 -tried to do and what i think we're we're really you know achieving at this point is to allow anyone - -261 -00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:42,080 -to spin up an alternative system if they want cashew is super easy to deploy and it really like the the - -262 -00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:47,540 -only thing that you need is a lightning note and you can become uh you can spin up a custodian or a - -263 -00:27:47,540 --> 00:27:53,040 -service and offer it to all the users what we've done like none of the cashew wallets out there - -264 -00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:58,340 -assume that you're going to use a single mint yeah for example all of them kind of assume that there - -265 -00:27:58,340 --> 00:28:03,400 -will be many different mints and you can connect multiple mints to your single wallet and that's - -266 -00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:09,420 -exactly what we've been seeing like there are 30 to 40 different mints out there run by people and - -267 -00:28:09,420 --> 00:28:15,700 -like some of them will blow up some of them will fractional reserve some of them will rock their - -268 -00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:20,060 -users i'm sorry there's like no way to prevent it it's a custodian system but the thing is like there - -269 -00:28:20,060 --> 00:28:26,820 -are 39 different mints out there still alive yeah and even if that happens like a small part of the - -270 -00:28:26,820 --> 00:28:32,700 -system breaks but the entire system keeps growing yeah and like that's what we're trying to achieve - -271 -00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:37,140 -like even and it's the same principle everywhere right like if one bitcoin note goes down it doesn't - -272 -00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:41,200 -matter if one lightning note goes down it doesn't matter if one computer on the internet goes down it - -273 -00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:47,120 -doesn't matter and so on and so forth yes and i think that i mean that's what to my mind the the - -274 -00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:53,260 -whole nostril architecture it's so simple and so ingenious because you just default you default to - -275 -00:28:53,260 --> 00:28:58,880 -you default to you know a couple different relays and and you just blast everything out to like five - -276 -00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,740 -six different ones by default and so if one goes away even if it's a big one you don't even feel it - -277 -00:29:03,740 --> 00:29:08,760 -it doesn't matter at all i was just asked this this like yesterday this question about like what - -278 -00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:14,080 -happens if that if that relay goes down and my answer to that was it's like you won't even notice that - -279 -00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:19,540 -the relay goes down it's like you have eight relays or ten relays in your client yeah i have no - -280 -00:29:19,540 --> 00:29:25,220 -emotional connection to my relay if it goes down whatever man i'll just use the next exactly and - -281 -00:29:25,220 --> 00:29:31,300 -and you can have that again relays are not necessarily blinded in that sense but but they - -282 -00:29:31,300 --> 00:29:36,680 -don't have any real power over you and that's what we we discussed when we said like it's it's like the - -283 -00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:42,460 -data is bearer you know like you sign the data and it's almost like if you if you if you look at - -284 -00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:46,920 -storage for example you can have a blinded custodian when it comes to storage because you - -285 -00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,960 -can you can just split stuff up and encrypt the charts only knew what's there and and like okay - -286 -00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,360 -i give you my hard disk whatever you store there i cannot even know that's also how a lot of the - -287 -00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,520 -modern you know email providers and so on work where it's just like the provider doesn't have the - -288 -00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,160 -keys to access the data so they don't know what's going on they just they just provide the system and i - -289 -00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,160 -think that's a again i feel like we're we're we're missing the succinct vocabulary to talk about - -290 -00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:17,300 -these things because that's a very very different power dynamic um than what we've had previously - -291 -00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:20,860 -where you know like your email provider reads absolutely everything knows absolutely everything - -292 -00:30:20,860 --> 00:30:26,560 -and if the government comes and and and and says you know like oh you have to get mr snowden off - -293 -00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:31,320 -your platform or something then then exactly those are like two different and very important things - -294 -00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:37,160 -to distinguish there as well you have one is the service provider that either knows what's happening - -295 -00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:43,300 -and can therefore individually sensor in the users or course individual users and the second thing - -296 -00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:50,000 -is that the provider itself could be forced to to censor an individual or rock an individual so - -297 -00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:56,740 -uh the state might from like from external information that the state has acquired about a certain user go to - -298 -00:30:56,740 --> 00:31:02,560 -that provider and say just stop this provider if you have a blind system then neither the provider can - -299 -00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:08,300 -uh rug you specifically nor can it be coerced to rug you specifically exactly those are two different - -300 -00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:15,780 -things that the the provider can protect itself from and the user of that provider can protect and it - -301 -00:31:15,780 --> 00:31:20,300 -makes a big difference because then it's like an all or nothing like if if if someone with a really - -302 -00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:25,320 -large stick knocks at your door and tells you okay we have reasons to believe that you know like - -303 -00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,420 -problematic person is using your system then you have to you would have to shut down absolutely - -304 -00:31:29,420 --> 00:31:34,520 -everything for everyone yes and that's what what like uh i mean if you know your i'm sure you do - -305 -00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:40,240 -but if you know your cypherpunk history it's like with love a bit you know it's like okay a problematic - -306 -00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:46,080 -person used uh love a bit email provider uh please hand over you're you're legally obliged to hand over - -307 -00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:51,740 -all encryption keys all everything and so you know the absolute legend of the guy printed everything out - -308 -00:31:51,740 --> 00:31:57,280 -with the printer and as the printer was printing the keys he shut down and nuked everything and that was - -309 -00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:03,640 -the end of love a bit so a little bit of history for everyone here fantastic that's how but then - -310 -00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,820 -then you at least kind of you know you have a way a meaningful way to protect your users basically - -311 -00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:16,780 -and you have a meaningful way of of also kind of um you don't want to have all the liability on your - -312 -00:32:16,780 --> 00:32:21,500 -shoulders and i think that's what we what we see now happening with the next iteration of the internet - -313 -00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:27,500 -so to speak it's user data in general is a liability yes it's absolutely it's treated as an asset with - -314 -00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:33,180 -the current platforms people to step in and provide services for others yeah it's like you have to be - -315 -00:32:33,180 --> 00:32:39,940 -afraid of you know knowing too much about the people that you serve absolutely so the way to protect - -316 -00:32:39,940 --> 00:32:45,780 -yourself is to apply cryptography so that you cannot know anything and you cannot hand over anything - -317 -00:32:45,780 --> 00:32:51,680 -and you'll be in a much better spot if if things go south exactly and and the reason why i say like - -318 -00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,320 -i think this is what we see happening now because for some businesses and for some people um user data - -319 -00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:02,380 -is an extreme liability and that's of course you know like um vpn providers and those kind of things - -320 -00:33:02,380 --> 00:33:08,380 -and so the first people naturally that uh accept bitcoin accept lightning and so on is something like - -321 -00:33:08,380 --> 00:33:14,800 -a mulvat vpn or obscura vpn or silent.link and so on and and i think this will continue to happen like we - -322 -00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:21,820 -we will see continue this adoption will continue to happen at the edges where you absolutely do not - -323 -00:33:21,820 --> 00:33:27,760 -want to know anything about your users so you will accept e-cash for example it's just like here is your - -324 -00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:34,680 -user id you pay that's it and that's all the service needs to know about you i want to go one step deeper - -325 -00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,640 -because we're talking about the internet right and like i like our theme it's it's a bit like a fractal - -326 -00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:44,860 -but we're trying to trying to keep it like focused on you want to go from the internet is - -327 -00:33:44,860 --> 00:33:49,800 -fuck to everything is fuck everything is no but like one good example that just came to my mind when - -328 -00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,520 -you said this was i want to talk a bit about internet infrastructure i think that's that's - -329 -00:33:54,520 --> 00:34:01,020 -something that we talk so little about because we have almost like almost no power as users oh yeah - -330 -00:34:01,020 --> 00:34:06,680 -yeah yeah run your own isp yeah run your own fucking email yeah yeah try that you know and - -331 -00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:12,460 -if you run your own isp and there are very brave individuals who run their own isp and offer this - -332 -00:34:12,460 --> 00:34:18,760 -as a service to their local community for example local city and so on like if you can know which - -333 -00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:25,320 -every isp that uses standard techniques kind of has to know who uses your your service who the - -334 -00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,560 -individual users ip addresses are what services they connect to then you're going to run into - -335 -00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,980 -into problems that's why it's like scary to run an isp yeah and like there are countries where you - -336 -00:34:35,980 --> 00:34:42,140 -cannot host a wi-fi for example it's a very simple problem that many people know about you have a cafe - -337 -00:34:42,140 --> 00:34:48,840 -and you host a wi-fi like you become kind of responsible for what happens on your wi-fi because - -338 -00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,820 -because people people can just point towards your cafe and say like something bad happened at your - -339 -00:34:54,820 --> 00:34:59,340 -cafe and now you're responsible for that figure out who did that and hand me all overall - -340 -00:34:59,340 --> 00:35:04,420 -information like we're still at the very very beginning of what we could do there and i think one - -341 -00:35:04,420 --> 00:35:11,860 -example of how we can fix this is you know exemplified through tor and many you know similar techniques - -342 -00:35:11,860 --> 00:35:18,900 -that try to kind of use encryption and other techniques to to hide user data and again like running - -343 -00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:25,660 -a tor relay that takes you know data from the tor network and and relays it forward to the tor network - -344 -00:35:25,660 --> 00:35:32,300 -is super safe it's like you can do it at your home it's there is almost nothing that can happen to you - -345 -00:35:32,300 --> 00:35:36,520 -the data is encrypted just because you don't know who sent it and you don't know who where it's going - -346 -00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,720 -and you can run a tor relay that's no problem the problem with tor relays rather is like the entry - -347 -00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:47,280 -node and the exit node again the points where someone can point to and say now you have to hand over the - -348 -00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:53,920 -data or you're responsible for this kind of traffic that flew flowed through your node so i think in in - -349 -00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:59,400 -terms of internet infrastructure now when we go down the stack really really down the stack and even to - -350 -00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:06,220 -the hardware level we haven't even started that process yet that we've been talking about with you - -351 -00:36:06,220 --> 00:36:14,940 -know social networks and money social networks being noster money being bitcoin the all services all - -352 -00:36:14,940 --> 00:36:22,860 -infrastructure that we rely on is still in the hands of the of the you know powerful isps because - -353 -00:36:22,860 --> 00:36:32,340 -we haven't developed yet alternative ways wherein like an uncle jim isp can just spin up a network - -354 -00:36:32,340 --> 00:36:38,000 -for their for for their community for their village or something like that and be protected himself - -355 -00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:44,080 -not have all the liability of everyone using that infrastructure i mean to to to be fair like to be - -356 -00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,840 -fair to to our society and civilization uh pre-cryptography all of this was impossible - -357 -00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:54,180 -because we had to rely on authority like there was no other way to to build these systems and scale - -358 -00:36:54,180 --> 00:37:01,940 -these systems and so on and i think uh also like i'm convinced and i i have very technical reasons - -359 -00:37:01,940 --> 00:37:06,580 -for that i'm convinced that bitcoin is the only solution to like proof of work is the only solution - -360 -00:37:06,580 --> 00:37:14,740 -to um again i have this big talk and thing about uh cryptography is not enough so you still need - -361 -00:37:14,740 --> 00:37:19,860 -like an arrow of time in cyberspace and you need an authority that that you cannot get with - -362 -00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:24,680 -cryptography alone and bitcoin provides this with proof of work and you basically like it's a long - -363 -00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,220 -long long argument i'm not going to go into it but i'm convinced we need this we need this this - -364 -00:37:28,220 --> 00:37:33,140 -substrate and the only way to build it out um we need entropy in cyberspace and we don't have - -365 -00:37:33,140 --> 00:37:37,560 -entropy in cyberspace and bitcoin provides entropy in cyberspace and the only way to provide it is - -366 -00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:42,700 -actually with proof of work provable randomness that's what you mean yes yeah and but but that's - -367 -00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:47,060 -also how you build up an arrow of time like you need provable randomness to build up an arrow of - -368 -00:37:47,060 --> 00:37:51,820 -it's so interesting because also you know in in physics itself the definition of the arrow of time - -369 -00:37:51,820 --> 00:37:55,960 -it's the same thing no that's why i'm convinced it's the only way like physics works in the same way - -370 -00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,480 -all physical laws are symmetric in time and the only thing that is asymmetric in physics except for - -371 -00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:07,980 -like symmetry breaking or crazy quantum and or fundamental physics is entropy basically space - -372 -00:38:07,980 --> 00:38:13,360 -time emerges out of entropy delta s always larger than zero yes and and and and so so so we now - -373 -00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:18,420 -know kind of you know i mean that's where everything's heading uh space time emerges out of entropy out of - -374 -00:38:18,420 --> 00:38:21,600 -irreversible processes and all those kind of things it's the same we need the same in cyberspace - -375 -00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:26,320 -so and that's what bitcoin provides and so so it's a it's a long-winded way of saying kind of - -376 -00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:32,500 -we have to also forgive ourself and forgive society and forgive the banks and everyone else - -377 -00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:38,800 -and the ice piece and so on it was quite impossible to build that up um i mean you know this as well - -378 -00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,280 -like pre-bitcoin it was quite impossible to build all this up same with e-cash you know having large - -379 -00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:48,260 -scale deployed e-cash systems on top of fiat would be an improvement yes but it's kind of you know it's a - -380 -00:38:48,260 --> 00:38:53,620 -band-aid it's like it's bitcoin really makes it work as we've just said before it's like it's going to - -381 -00:38:53,620 --> 00:38:58,140 -be jp morgan who builds this and it will be offered to jp morgan's clients and that's it - -382 -00:38:58,140 --> 00:39:03,720 -and if jp morgan goes down the whole system goes down yeah like without bitcoin you cannot do this - -383 -00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:08,600 -in a meaningful way you need the underlying substrate that's actually fair and open to everyone - -384 -00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:17,560 -and provides kind of a you know to have a marketplace you first need physics you first need an actual - -385 -00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:23,320 -substrate where you can build a marketplace on and that's kind of how i see it and and i think - -386 -00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,760 -i think it's all going in that direction as you mentioned where where we have we can actually - -387 -00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,760 -build those systems out now where you are kind of zero knowledge about your customers and you are - -388 -00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,920 -zero knowledge about certain things and we see this now with tollgate for example you know it's one - -389 -00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,800 -of the one of the experiments currently going on where you basically you you you use e-cash to pay - -390 -00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:48,500 -for internet access and in this way the you know the mini isp basically your local isp - -391 -00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:53,060 -doesn't know anything about you can't know anything about you and and that's fantastic because it's - -392 -00:39:53,060 --> 00:39:57,660 -actually it it allows for an equal playing field in terms of who will actually provide the best - -393 -00:39:57,660 --> 00:40:03,500 -service can we just please for a second appreciate this wonderful fact that you can finally pay for - -394 -00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:09,660 -things online without having to kyc yeah i know i like i mean we're both hardcore bitcoiners and we - -395 -00:40:09,660 --> 00:40:15,380 -kind of sometimes forget about the hey this guy recognizes us as bitcoin bitcoin is great - -396 -00:40:15,380 --> 00:40:24,660 -so you know there is so much stuff on the internet that you could purchase and buy and like - -397 -00:40:24,660 --> 00:40:32,680 -many also privacy improving technologies vpn as the best example like the only way to pay for a vpn - -398 -00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:39,500 -was a kyc credit card for the entire existence of the internet and again there are technical reasons - -399 -00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:43,280 -there are technical reasons for it there are technical reasons you needed you needed bitcoin - -400 -00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:49,120 -before you before you could fix that because because before that all it's so funny that like - -401 -00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:58,100 -in the white paper it says electronic cash you know it says electronic cash and in my mind the - -402 -00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:03,140 -electronic says already something about the whole system because you need to push electrons around to - -403 -00:41:03,140 --> 00:41:08,860 -make the thing work so so so the proof of work stuff is kind of embedded in the title it's not digital - -404 -00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:14,080 -cash that's why it's so distinct from cbdc and so on and and and in the digital world purely digital - -405 -00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:19,240 -world if you remove electronics if you remove proof of work you're immediately in credit there is no - -406 -00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:23,840 -other way to do it it can be just a representation of like exactly because there is no link between the - -407 -00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,200 -the physical world and the digital world yes and so you always need a trusted authority to resolve any - -408 -00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:34,880 -conflicts that will inevitably arise and so so if you have digital money it is credit money period - -409 -00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:42,240 -and credit implies identity and implies thus kyc because i need to know who you are because if - -410 -00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:47,740 -there are conflicts or the credit goes bad then i need to find you with the police in my back you - -411 -00:41:47,740 --> 00:41:53,520 -know that's that's how it works and that's why if you pre-bitcoin if you bought a anything like a - -412 -00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,780 -a domain or a vpn or what have you you had like you had to use credit rates there was no other way - -413 -00:41:58,780 --> 00:42:04,840 -it's it's it's like once you truly understand this stuff it's like okay okay that's but now we have it now - -414 -00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:09,300 -we can actually rebuild it and build it properly absolutely and the thing is like this is a - -415 -00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:17,600 -like a slight philosophical take but we see these very obvious truths only when the alternative is - -416 -00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,720 -presented to us yes yeah like this is something absolutely that that thought was almost worthless - -417 -00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:28,420 -yeah insight was almost worthless without being able to point to the alternative yeah and today we - -418 -00:42:28,420 --> 00:42:34,100 -can see like we can just say as like a lemma yeah credit means you need a gun yeah without guns - -419 -00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:38,700 -credits credits doesn't work yeah it doesn't scale or what what have you like you need to - -420 -00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:45,780 -at least kyc and in order for kyc to make any sense you need a gun because like what what benefit do you - -421 -00:42:45,780 --> 00:42:50,160 -have to know that joe owes you money if you can force joe to pay you back basically it's all about - -422 -00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,540 -enforcement in the end then yeah and that's the neat thing about bitcoin it does the enforcement for - -423 -00:42:54,540 --> 00:43:00,400 -you and that's still true on lightning so that's i think that's why that's why it allows anyone to - -424 -00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,100 -participate anyone to participate because you don't need a lawyer you don't need an army - -425 -00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:11,360 -like to actually be your own bank in bitcoin and have a self-sovereign monetary policy you don't need - -426 -00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:17,620 -a standing army that's kind of a big innovation let's tie it back again i'm trying so go ahead - -427 -00:43:17,620 --> 00:43:22,940 -in terms of e-cash no no you're you're great i love listening to you i'm sure everyone everyone - -428 -00:43:22,940 --> 00:43:28,780 -else does as well i derail every single conversation you you tend to sometimes - -429 -00:43:28,780 --> 00:43:36,020 -go on a tangent you go ahead no no like let's get back to the internet and why the internet looks - -430 -00:43:36,020 --> 00:43:39,860 -like it is today and i think this is also something that both of us have thought about a lot - -431 -00:43:39,860 --> 00:43:47,900 -is the way that the internet developed due to a lack of being able to finance itself yeah i think the the - -432 -00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:53,400 -word here is micropayments it sounds like a small part you know a small feature of something but - -433 -00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:59,940 -when you look into the history of micropayments and what people wrote about it and so on it kind of - -434 -00:43:59,940 --> 00:44:05,680 -it's not just about you know paying your coffee and being able to make a transaction with low fees - -435 -00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:14,860 -it was seen as the way that this cyberspace like the the electronic sphere that uh that is built - -436 -00:44:14,860 --> 00:44:20,340 -that is kind of finding a way how the electronic sphere itself can finance itself from within - -437 -00:44:20,340 --> 00:44:26,680 -you want we see that you cannot offer a service for free it's just everything takes resources so - -438 -00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:32,360 -you need to refinance it some way and the early visions of the internet thought that we are going - -439 -00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:38,480 -to find uh a way like you have talked about this with pablo in the last episode about 402 that was - -440 -00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:44,240 -kind of added as the error code and then you know we'll find a way to to to make payments in a - -441 -00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:48,720 -couple years and then we'll we'll be able to use that error code yeah it was kind of baked in into - -442 -00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:55,120 -the assumption that the internet would grow on an ability to make payments for things online and - -443 -00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:01,240 -that's why i you know i'm so bullish on on e-cash because it kind of finally gives us a very simple - -444 -00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:08,200 -way to to make payments online for services that we use online in a microscopic scale you need to be - -445 -00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:14,580 -able to pay like one cent or less than a cent for some things you need to be able to pay per second - -446 -00:45:14,580 --> 00:45:22,200 -if you don't want to rely on credit so if you want like a better access to a service and then be able - -447 -00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:26,240 -to use that immediately and the service provider can shut you down immediately if you don't pay - -448 -00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:32,100 -if you want that dynamic you need like a bear token that can move instantly for almost for free - -449 -00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:39,280 -and in any arbitrary amount that you want and like i'm so bullish about e-cash because in my mind it - -450 -00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:45,500 -opens this possibility of this new internet the internet kind of bifurcated in the 90s - -451 -00:45:45,500 --> 00:45:52,680 -when everyone thought that we are going to have a cyber economy and we will be able to finance all - -452 -00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:58,360 -these services from within we saw that no it's not going to happen it's not happening with credit - -453 -00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:04,260 -cards and people do not enter their kyc data into a form to make like a 10 cent i don't even i don't - -454 -00:46:04,260 --> 00:46:07,940 -even think that's the issue it is the 10 cent payment because it's impossible with credit cards - -455 -00:46:07,940 --> 00:46:12,900 -and so you have to batch payments because otherwise otherwise the counterparty risk kills you even the - -456 -00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:17,720 -10 cent payment must be a fake payment that's why every single subscription that you you'll ever see - -457 -00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:23,180 -online is like at least five bucks a month and it's mostly paid annually so that it's like 20 bucks - -458 -00:46:23,180 --> 00:46:28,020 -the bottom is dictated by the transaction fees of the entire system basically yeah or like the risk - -459 -00:46:28,020 --> 00:46:33,480 -inside the system exactly yeah so so it was impossible and just to interject for for a brief - -460 -00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:40,660 -moment but i think one of the guys who who wrote most kind of lucidly about this was uh i think um - -461 -00:46:40,660 --> 00:46:46,240 -the book's name is who owns the future and it was i think jared lanier he was very early on vr stuff as - -462 -00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:54,040 -well and he wrote about kind of um uh in the best case money flows through the whole internet and and - -463 -00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:59,360 -these kind of levies build up where we're just like wherever the value is provided like um that's - -464 -00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,420 -where the value will flow and his main criticism at the time was there was the book was written like - -465 -00:47:03,420 --> 00:47:07,500 -well over 10 years ago i i don't know exactly when but it's it's an old book in internet standards - -466 -00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:12,580 -and and he was one of the early critics of like the big players like facebook and those kind of - -467 -00:47:12,580 --> 00:47:19,640 -things where basically um there is lots of value provided but the whole value flows to one central - -468 -00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:27,060 -point and for i think he didn't know uh like you know big commie and so on he thought it was only for - -469 -00:47:27,060 --> 00:47:32,520 -for structural political reasons not for technical reasons i'm convinced it's mostly for for technical - -470 -00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:37,860 -reasons where you just you can't do it basically you can you cannot enter the space and become a - -471 -00:47:37,860 --> 00:47:42,780 -competition exactly like you will always end up with a monopoly if there was no one else can can - -472 -00:47:42,780 --> 00:47:48,120 -and also if there are any micro payments in the thing you still would have to kyc to receive payouts - -473 -00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,060 -and so on and so forth and it's like very high barrier to entry and it's like you get in the best - -474 -00:47:52,060 --> 00:47:57,720 -case you get facebook points like reddit karma you know and then to to pay like to actually exit the - -475 -00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:04,700 -system again you'll have to go through the whole you know kyc everything is so stupid yeah it's so - -476 -00:48:04,700 --> 00:48:11,320 -fucked like it's so fucked like if we continue on this path just think ahead like 10 years - -477 -00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:18,280 -is the is the is the realistic expectation that every person will have like 50 subscription at some - -478 -00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:23,460 -point yeah yeah that's the other thing is this how you're going to live on the internet you're you're - -479 -00:48:23,460 --> 00:48:28,000 -limited to only like 20 services because that's what you can pay for because you need like five - -480 -00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,940 -dollars minimum per month to be able to access them yeah it's like so stupid that's why i showed the - -481 -00:48:32,940 --> 00:48:36,820 -comic with like the pirate bay you know ah netflix comes around and it's like ah i don't need you - -482 -00:48:36,820 --> 00:48:41,920 -anymore and he puts away the pirate bay hat and then it's like netflix and disney plus and hulu - -483 -00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:48,220 -and youtube premium and whatnot and then like 10 years later he gets back into oh yeah my old - -484 -00:48:48,220 --> 00:48:55,200 -friend hello my dear old friend i made this i made this development myself so much like i'm so in love - -485 -00:48:55,200 --> 00:49:00,740 -with torrents right now and you know to resolve this issue to to really make sure that torrents can - -486 -00:49:00,740 --> 00:49:06,120 -survive forever which i think like i'm such a big fan of torrent for me it's like there are three - -487 -00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:11,820 -systems in the world that i think are really well done this is bitcoin torrent and nosta you know - -488 -00:49:11,820 --> 00:49:18,700 -torrent was there since the beginning and it will survive every nuclear disaster that we have like i love - -489 -00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:25,620 -it but torrent has no economics incentives built in that's the biggest weak point of torrents and when - -490 -00:49:25,620 --> 00:49:32,660 -i saw bitcoin for the first time a long time ago because also about the name overlap of bit torrent - -491 -00:49:32,660 --> 00:49:38,040 -and bitcoin i kind of automatically assumed that this will be used for online file sharing immediately - -492 -00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:44,320 -like it's just you know we're in the cyber world we have exchange of value in terms of data people - -493 -00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:51,040 -seed data people leech data and obviously like things cost money so let me just pay for for the data - -494 -00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:57,320 -that i download from you it's a very natural exchange basically as we all know we haven't - -495 -00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:02,080 -reached that point with bitcoin yet and that's due to technical reasons only like i'm convinced we would - -496 -00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:07,220 -we would see this already if we could make like micropayments with pure bitcoin and we can still do - -497 -00:50:07,220 --> 00:50:12,120 -it with lightning because we cannot force everyone to run to run a lightning note just to see it torrents - -498 -00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:19,040 -with ecash things look very different if we both share a mint then we can do micropayments for - -499 -00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:24,360 -for every kilobyte of data that you sent me i can send you like a satoshi and that's totally doable - -500 -00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:31,280 -and i i really hope that we will see this so it's also just again i'm i know i hate to interject but - -501 -00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,420 -it's also it's also about rate limiting because that's like every open system has this issue as well - -502 -00:50:35,420 --> 00:50:39,860 -and so it's not only about payments payments are a great way to rate limit stuff because the other - -503 -00:50:39,860 --> 00:50:44,200 -way to rate limit stuff is to kyc even if it's pseudonymous and so on it's like you have to create an - -504 -00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,740 -account and so on but it's like one one satoshi per whatever you know kilobyte or megabyte - -505 -00:50:48,740 --> 00:50:54,060 -don't pick your thing it's a fantastic way to rate limit yeah absolutely and like uh again lemma from - -506 -00:50:54,060 --> 00:51:00,040 -that so either to rate limit someone either you need to know their identity so you can say like - -507 -00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:07,600 -this identity now you had enough stop doing that or if you want privacy which we all want then you - -508 -00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:14,220 -have no solution other than payments yeah right and that's that's so beautiful to see and satoshi - -509 -00:51:14,220 --> 00:51:19,680 -says that the signal actually says that to himself proof of work exactly that if you want a anonymous - -510 -00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:24,840 -system where everyone like an open set of people everyone can join and leave whenever they want they - -511 -00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:30,900 -do not have to register they have no identity then you must find a way to slow them down and the way - -512 -00:51:30,900 --> 00:51:37,640 -to slow them down is to make them pay and the only way to do it like internally inside cyberspace - -513 -00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,860 -without going out it's we all know it's compute it's proof of work and the funny thing is like - -514 -00:51:41,860 --> 00:51:47,420 -at the end of the day you would use like for example if you would use cashew for that is that - -515 -00:51:47,420 --> 00:51:53,820 -you you peg on the proof of work that has been provided earlier by some miner yeah by mining that - -516 -00:51:53,820 --> 00:51:59,860 -satoshi the real satoshi that is represented by that by that cashew token so you kind of only can - -517 -00:51:59,860 --> 00:52:07,500 -piggyback on real energy being spent and it's so clean yeah it's like almost the the universe giving - -518 -00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:13,520 -you a signal there's only one single way that we know of like there might be maybe another super - -519 -00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:20,520 -revolutionary idea but there's only like anonymous systems need proof of work which is bitcoin or you - -520 -00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:25,620 -have no anonymous system yeah yeah yeah that's that's also why like like from first principles - -521 -00:52:25,620 --> 00:52:30,580 -i think that's why also you can dismiss absolutely everything that doesn't have proof of work baked in - -522 -00:52:30,580 --> 00:52:36,260 -outright it's like all that's why once once i had this insight i just i was able to dismiss everything - -523 -00:52:36,260 --> 00:52:41,680 -else and if you if you look at the proof of work share yeah in the world it's like it's only bitcoin - -524 -00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:47,840 -so it's only bitcoin i reasoned myself into maximalism i did not absolutely i get that 100 - -525 -00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:53,120 -percent and also proof of stake i think like proof of stake as an example as an alternative example - -526 -00:52:53,120 --> 00:53:00,420 -to proof of work i'm like strongly convinced that this all these systems are like super unstable and - -527 -00:53:00,420 --> 00:53:05,500 -the reason why they are still around is because bitcoin is still around yeah like we see it all the time - -528 -00:53:05,500 --> 00:53:10,260 -take bitcoin out of the equation yeah all of that would collapse like it's funny because they kind - -529 -00:53:10,260 --> 00:53:16,800 -of you know in a hidden way yeah or not to mention they're hiding behind the shield kind of all hiding - -530 -00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,800 -behind that proof of work sheet of bitcoin no no absolutely but you see it with the with the - -531 -00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:27,860 -shittiest uh uh proof of stake systems with like i don't know like is it solana that restarts every - -532 -00:53:27,860 --> 00:53:35,120 -week and so on no but but there there's plenty that just have to kind of uh you know reset themselves - -533 -00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:39,460 -like every couple weeks and so on because they run into unresolvable conflicts and then you have to - -534 -00:53:39,460 --> 00:53:45,480 -ask a quorum which can't agree on what is right um like what is the actual state of the system and - -535 -00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:50,340 -you cannot know without proof of work you cannot know and then you just have to all right like this - -536 -00:53:50,340 --> 00:53:55,120 -is the checkpoint this is like we dictate now this is the actual state of the system and then we - -537 -00:53:55,120 --> 00:54:00,220 -continue again and that's a political process of course and so so i mean everyone should know this - -538 -00:54:00,220 --> 00:54:08,080 -by now but but but basically the beauty of gold was to move the question of of um monetary policy - -539 -00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:13,260 -to the realm of physics yes away from the realm of politics to the realm of physics it's a kind of - -540 -00:54:13,260 --> 00:54:19,020 -like objectivism about what the state of a system is and yeah it removes humans from the equation can - -541 -00:54:19,020 --> 00:54:25,060 -only be based on physics yeah and bitcoin does the same thing just in cyberspace it it it it shifts the - -542 -00:54:25,060 --> 00:54:31,820 -question of monetary policy away from humans into physics so so physics dictates what the monetary - -543 -00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:37,480 -policy is and you can you know whatever you can be angry at you know physics as much as you want but - -544 -00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:44,580 -it's going to be no use don't be the angry man shouting at clouds yeah they won't shout back - -545 -00:54:44,580 --> 00:54:54,880 -so what would the internet look like if we were able to uh if we would have been able to build it - -546 -00:54:54,880 --> 00:55:01,020 -without without having to and i i kind of skipped over this fact before when i had my made my rant - -547 -00:55:01,020 --> 00:55:07,200 -about the bifurcation of the internet because the other path the world the path that we actually went - -548 -00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:13,680 -on was the monetization through advertisement through attention i would say yes attention exactly - -549 -00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:19,820 -attention attention is the currency yeah and advertisement is the way to to kind of monetize - -550 -00:55:19,820 --> 00:55:27,140 -that maybe yeah but um so that's what we ended up with the entire internet has now basically two modes - -551 -00:55:27,140 --> 00:55:33,200 -either you pay a subscription fee or you consume yeah ads or you pay with your eyeballs or you pay with - -552 -00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:40,760 -your eyeballs oh that's nice i i hope the listeners can hear the church bell ringing - -553 -00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:47,040 -mics will pick it up it's loud enough what do you think like what what what would we what would - -554 -00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:53,000 -the internet look like first of all for sure i'm sure that we wouldn't have this you know the world - -555 -00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:59,100 -that you're either a netflix subscriber or a disney plus subscriber and you know you just cannot - -556 -00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:07,360 -afford like five million different subscriptions so you must kind of become a separated folk from the - -557 -00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:13,260 -others like oh sorry i cannot watch that series because i i don't subscribe to that platform i i think - -558 -00:56:13,260 --> 00:56:18,700 -we would have less monopolies in general i think you know like going back to a very old book the - -559 -00:56:18,700 --> 00:56:24,560 -cathedral and the bazaar which talked about the ways to the different ways to develop software it was - -560 -00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:32,420 -like you know microsoft versus unix systems basically and i think the because we had to monetize - -561 -00:56:32,420 --> 00:56:40,940 -attention we kind of it favors monopolies it favors like you you you scale to like a half billion - -562 -00:56:40,940 --> 00:56:46,740 -users and then you're able to monetize and the the you know the user base is large enough that you - -563 -00:56:46,740 --> 00:56:52,240 -actually make money and then you squeeze them and then you do it all over again i think i think - -564 -00:56:52,240 --> 00:56:58,380 -it's not smart for us to go up that steep i think we'll just we'll just do a loop around all right - -565 -00:56:58,380 --> 00:57:07,960 -and can i have a look of just all right can i have a look again yeah sure we've been recording for one - -566 -00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:14,300 -hour oh okay good yes because as i told you after 90 minutes my brain is usually fried no we have 30 - -567 -00:57:14,300 --> 00:57:20,760 -more minutes of your juicy brain to squeeze let's see let's see let's see you might need another coffee - -568 -00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:28,860 -i i will i will try this once just to just fuck it and just sit down and and go i i want to bring - -569 -00:57:28,860 --> 00:57:35,960 -someone to a shisha bar or something and just go really wild just record it all but anyway i i think - -570 -00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:43,720 -i think it would have evolved very differently and i think with the beauty to me of noser and and - -571 -00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:49,840 -with baked in e-cash right now is that it doesn't matter who you are it doesn't matter what you are you - -572 -00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:55,380 -can be a bot you can be a dog you can be a kid you can be from a sanctioned country whatever you - -573 -00:57:55,380 --> 00:58:00,540 -one click create a cryptographic identity and you immediately can receive money that's so - -574 -00:58:00,540 --> 00:58:05,760 -revolutionary like people it feels so not revolutionary but if you actually know what's - -575 -00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:13,640 -happening underneath like that's that is revolutionary and and if you allow people to make money things just - -576 -00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:20,640 -change very quickly things like i think i think because with the with the kind of current iteration - -577 -00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:27,040 -of the internet you the the barrier to receiving money is really high like you need a bank account - -578 -00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:32,120 -you need a credit line you need basically you need to be able to create a paypal account those kind of - -579 -00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:37,380 -things there's so many people that can't do that but absolutely anyone can you know like for example sign - -580 -00:58:37,380 --> 00:58:42,400 -up to all us and just receive saps immediately anyone can do that and so i think the internet would have - -581 -00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:47,980 -evolved very very differently just because of look at look at how the world works in general like - -582 -00:58:47,980 --> 00:58:53,740 -how many shops are in in this city there isn't only one there isn't just like one amazon that you go - -583 -00:58:53,740 --> 00:58:57,880 -to and you get everything there's like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of shops and there's people - -584 -00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:02,220 -like you know standing at street corners making money absolutely everywhere and we don't see this - -585 -00:59:02,220 --> 00:59:08,320 -we don't see this online yes without without cash you cannot like you cannot imagine a world where just - -586 -00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:14,020 -someone sets up a rogue store yeah that's why i use the lemonade sells sells there try to set up a - -587 -00:59:14,020 --> 00:59:19,120 -lemonade stand without without cash exactly it's it's it's impossible you'll have to fill out forms of - -588 -00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:24,940 -regulations and everything we will also lose that if we don't you know if we are not aware of what cash - -589 -00:59:24,940 --> 00:59:29,700 -brings us we will lose many of those nuances that we see right now and i think the same analogy - -590 -00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:35,820 -applies to the internet as well you have this you know media outlets crying out loud for years you know - -591 -00:59:35,820 --> 00:59:42,560 -oh like print media is dying no one buys stuff anymore and then they're begging for your credit card - -592 -00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:47,720 -number so you can like pay a little bit for the article that you're paying and at the same time you have - -593 -00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:53,520 -like customers when you do when you ask people like would you be able would you be willing to pay if you - -594 -00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:58,020 -could without any mental barriers like everyone says yes like of course i will pay like 10 cents - -595 -00:59:58,020 --> 01:00:01,880 -50 cents yeah but it's also i don't believe the customers in some way just like oh everyone will - -596 -01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:09,980 -buy the all natural uh buy a you know bio raised good meat chicken whatever and they just usually - -597 -01:00:09,980 --> 01:00:16,240 -don't they just usually don't it's like if you if if if you ask people they will tell you something - -598 -01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:22,140 -else and if they if you let them vote with their wallet they will behave very differently so so i would - -599 -01:00:22,140 --> 01:00:25,820 -be careful with that but i think also the mistake that the new york times and everyone is making - -600 -01:00:25,820 --> 01:00:30,640 -is they're trying to sell the wrong thing and i keep coming back to this i hate talking about the - -601 -01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,880 -fucking nft retards every single time but it's like you cannot sell a jpeg just like you cannot - -602 -01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:41,160 -sell a blog post there is no market that can form around a blog post because it's not this car's - -603 -01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:46,720 -thing so i think i think the people that that force you into these subscription models they are they're - -604 -01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:52,180 -trying to sell you the wrong thing well they can only do that because as you say there it doesn't have a - -605 -01:00:52,180 --> 01:00:56,780 -defined price you can just pick the price out of the yeah you have to make it up because there is - -606 -01:00:56,780 --> 01:01:01,060 -no supply and demand because i can take a screenshot of the blog post and send it to everyone for free - -607 -01:01:01,060 --> 01:01:07,140 -and so there is there is no like the supply is infinity and once one supply approaches infinity - -608 -01:01:07,140 --> 01:01:11,400 -market prices make no sense so they're selling the wrong thing and i think twitch figured that out for - -609 -01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:16,540 -example like twitch and like the streaming world and also to some extent the free-to-play games - -610 -01:01:16,540 --> 01:01:21,100 -figured that out what can you sell on twitch they are not selling the mp4 files they are not selling - -611 -01:01:21,100 --> 01:01:25,160 -access to the streams they're selling access to a community access to super chat and so on and i - -612 -01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:29,480 -think for journalism it could be the same way where it's like okay like maybe maybe you have tier - -613 -01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:33,980 -subscriptions and whatever but it's like you get access to the journalist you know and you get access - -614 -01:01:33,980 --> 01:01:39,260 -to whatever like was whatever was discussed in this thing and so on you you have to sell something that - -615 -01:01:39,260 --> 01:01:43,800 -is actually scarce and the blog post itself is not actually scarce and i feel like people are - -616 -01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:49,420 -insanely confused about this because they still try to sell blog posts and jpegs and mp4 files and so on - -617 -01:01:49,420 --> 01:01:53,360 -it's like oh i'm gonna build a youtube killer and it's like a paywall for every single video - -618 -01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:59,340 -it's like it it it does not work at all because also you're limiting the spread of the information - -619 -01:01:59,340 --> 01:02:04,200 -which is never a good idea you want to you you have to sell information wants to be free information - -620 -01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:09,760 -can be freely copied as well and and it's it's you have to sell something else and that's what - -621 -01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:14,920 -what i kind of want to that's why i keep harping on it because like almost everyone is still confused - -622 -01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:20,420 -about it and we see it already trending in a very different direction just because you it it like - -623 -01:02:20,420 --> 01:02:26,320 -everyone real like the market dictates that but we i think we can also if you know that beforehand - -624 -01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:31,420 -you can build something that you don't need like 25 iterations of until you land on something that - -625 -01:02:31,420 --> 01:02:35,660 -works like you can actually figure out what is cars in the first place and sell that but anyway - -626 -01:02:35,660 --> 01:02:40,100 -long round over no no explain this to me then like how this works with torrents because - -627 -01:02:40,100 --> 01:02:46,080 -like i would private trackers are scars yeah i would the trackers are scars it's not the files - -628 -01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,760 -the kilobytes and the things are not scars that doesn't mean that we shouldn't add e-cash to the - -629 -01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:53,740 -things because of the rate limiting issue and all those kind of things i but but that's not going - -630 -01:02:53,740 --> 01:02:58,780 -to be the you you it's very it's going to be very hard to have market dynamics around this and it's - -631 -01:02:58,780 --> 01:03:04,020 -also like metering everything doesn't necessarily make sense just because of mental transaction costs - -632 -01:03:04,020 --> 01:03:07,760 -that's why we have flat rates for everything that's why you get a flat rate for your gym and a flat - -633 -01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:14,460 -rate for your internet access and so on and and but um having high quality curation for example - -634 -01:03:14,460 --> 01:03:20,760 -that's something people should and could pay for it's like it's we see it with relays it's like we - -635 -01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:28,500 -have relays that are paid i assume because they are paid it's it's higher quality you know less spam - -636 -01:03:28,500 --> 01:03:35,680 -um higher availability all those kind of things and that's actually a service that is scarce and that's - -637 -01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:42,600 -worth paying for but you're not paying for you know like for the notes yeah you know but but - -638 -01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:48,300 -anyway like i'm trying to to to figure all these out again by by just picking the brains of of - -639 -01:03:48,300 --> 01:03:53,520 -everyone it's like figure out what is actually scarce in cyberspace and the easiest one of course is - -640 -01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:59,560 -compute and that's why i think i mean you we started uh talking about other lamps and so on and i think - -641 -01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:05,380 -that's why why why this is a match made in heaven like especially like e-cash and ai agents i think it's a - -642 -01:04:05,380 --> 01:04:11,180 -match made in heaven because you don't necessarily want to sign up for you know jet gbd or whatever - -643 -01:04:11,180 --> 01:04:17,600 -with your credit card and and you know like you i mean jet gbd obviously is what killed google no one - -644 -01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:21,920 -is using google anymore everyone is just like querying and and just like you know having a - -645 -01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:26,580 -conversation with their ai agent for absolutely everything with so paul you know like just like - -646 -01:04:26,580 --> 01:04:32,440 -coding is if you if you like learn to code is like a dad hashtag because you have to learn learn to - -647 -01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:39,140 -prompt i really want to i really want to see us go down that road because as we said before the - -648 -01:04:39,140 --> 01:04:43,960 -question of hardware and like hardware is inherently scarce because it's physical - -649 -01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:50,120 -anything physical is inherently scarce there is nothing physical that is not scarce yeah in a sense - -650 -01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:54,400 -like you can say yeah molecules there are enough air molecules for everyone but it's not an infinite - -651 -01:04:54,400 --> 01:05:01,600 -amount of air molecules and i don't know maybe in a dystopian uh world war three situation the - -652 -01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:08,140 -submarine you might have to pay for the oxygen as well exactly so uh that's really why where i want to - -653 -01:05:08,140 --> 01:05:15,100 -see us and i think like that would set us on a path of so much more freedom if we could create - -654 -01:05:15,100 --> 01:05:23,200 -markets for hardware-based services on the internet that starts with an isp but i think the more generic - -655 -01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:32,020 -form of it is compute as you said if we you know if we could even dream of a world where we do not - -656 -01:05:32,020 --> 01:05:39,000 -have to rely on gigantic centralized super clusters of compute that are controlled by a small amount - -657 -01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:46,620 -of companies but where we can actually have a market on-demand market where everyone could pay for - -658 -01:05:46,620 --> 01:05:53,320 -the resources that they that they use for that specific purpose and you know compute is universal - -659 -01:05:53,320 --> 01:06:00,280 -you could do ai with the same hardware you could you know do all sorts of different different ai - -660 -01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:06,020 -models on it you could mine bitcoin with the same hardware and you know who knows what in in the future - -661 -01:06:06,020 --> 01:06:11,580 -because the hardware itself a general purpose and yeah i mean in some sense that's what airbnb - -662 -01:06:11,580 --> 01:06:17,320 -uh figured out and same for uber it's like okay to pick all the hotels in the world world which are - -663 -01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:22,700 -like that like in our analogy now the big data centers the big compute super clusters there is many - -664 -01:06:22,700 --> 01:06:27,660 -hotels and there's big hotels but take all the you know living rooms of all the people in the world - -665 -01:06:27,660 --> 01:06:32,500 -there's way more of those and so so switching to that like in some other areas that already happened - -666 -01:06:32,500 --> 01:06:39,180 -and and uh i think you know if you actually allow people to make money with their living room - -667 -01:06:39,180 --> 01:06:43,740 -they will rent it out and they will make money and it will proliferate so we see this that is work - -668 -01:06:43,740 --> 01:06:48,120 -same for uber and and everything else you know like most people have cars and so on and they don't - -669 -01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:53,780 -need it all the time so same for graphics cards and same for hard disks and everything and and so you - -670 -01:06:53,780 --> 01:06:59,920 -just need to be able to to pay for that and build a system that actually scales and scales in a trustless - -671 -01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:06,840 -manner basically yes and so uber unlocked this because um it was the apps that kind of unlocked this - -672 -01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:13,100 -like the missing link for that uber success story was our phones and the applications that connect us - -673 -01:07:13,100 --> 01:07:19,720 -yeah but and they were able to build this empire um while still being like the centralized party in - -674 -01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:25,420 -between navigating yeah everyone from from and to yeah and also the the payments going through them - -675 -01:07:25,420 --> 01:07:31,200 -yeah like payments existed before uber and then the apps came and connected everyone online now - -676 -01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:35,460 -everyone could use these services and boom you have like the biggest taxi service in the world - -677 -01:07:35,460 --> 01:07:42,380 -doesn't own a taxi yeah right so um if we think this one step further and we want to get rid of uber - -678 -01:07:42,380 --> 01:07:46,280 -at that point i mean again this is already happening i think like because then you have competition and - -679 -01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,740 -you have the same thing happen that happened to netflix where it's like 15 other things pop up and - -680 -01:07:49,740 --> 01:07:53,680 -then everyone hates it again because you actually want the stuff that interrupts and you don't want - -681 -01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:58,920 -to be locked in one silo and uber is a silo yeah uber is a silo and we can replace uber with nostr - -682 -01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:04,500 -yeah we we don't need the company in between that tells you what you can rent and what you cannot - -683 -01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:11,000 -rent but you would still you know without bitcoin you still couldn't do it because uber uber depends - -684 -01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:15,800 -on the credit card system all the payments need to go through uber and otherwise it's not possible - -685 -01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:21,480 -like with the right combination especially for compute you can't do it because because the more - -686 -01:08:21,480 --> 01:08:28,920 -micro something get the more the smaller the the kind of um yes the smaller the packets so to speak - -687 -01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:33,300 -that you want to sell uh are the harder it's going to be on credit rails that's why you need like an - -688 -01:08:33,300 --> 01:08:38,800 -instant payment system that is better absolutely and you want to pay for uh one second of compute - -689 -01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:43,220 -you want to be able to a single second of compute and once you stop paying you just turn off the - -690 -01:08:43,220 --> 01:08:48,280 -computer and i think the last step that's missing and that's coming now is blinded compute - -691 -01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:53,780 -and i think that's gonna be that's gonna be fantastic because that's we know that this - -692 -01:08:53,780 --> 01:08:58,820 -already works like again coming back to the torrents like people exactly even without payment people are - -693 -01:08:58,820 --> 01:09:04,360 -seeding torrents even without payment people ran sati at home and we're trying to search for - -694 -01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:08,640 -extraterrestrial life and or do protein folding and all those kind of things yes but what about the - -695 -01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,960 -risk of storing someone's data on your hard drive right yes and do you really want to go that risk - -696 -01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:17,760 -i don't know but if you cannot decrypt the data that is stored on your hard drive then you're fine - -697 -01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:25,360 -yeah so blinded compute and uh especially for ai i mean it's a two-sided coin again it's good for - -698 -01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:29,880 -privacy for the individual user but again also for the service provider you cannot become a service - -699 -01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:35,220 -provider if you don't like have a huge team of lawyers protecting yourself or being a company with - -700 -01:09:35,220 --> 01:09:40,720 -the resources of that but once you cannot look into what's happening the risk basically goes to zero - -701 -01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:44,360 -there is nothing you could have done and nothing you can be coerced to - -702 -01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:51,840 -yeah and i how how far along do you think are we i i i know that you know a little bit about the - -703 -01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:56,780 -you know zero knowledge compute stuff and all those kind of things i know very very little uh the only - -704 -01:09:56,780 --> 01:10:04,040 -thing that i know is that a lot of you know very smart people are currently looking into this working - -705 -01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:10,920 -on this and also trying to wet this stuff with nostr dvms yeah which i think is going to be - -706 -01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:17,380 -quite oh i think i think zero knowledge computation is going to be like the you know the next thing - -707 -01:10:17,380 --> 01:10:25,380 -it's like what we have with bitcoin and what it feels like is happening now with ai i think the next - -708 -01:10:25,380 --> 01:10:31,640 -step looking like 10 years ahead or something is going to be zero knowledge compute because it it's a - -709 -01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:38,420 -whole new paradigm of compute it basically like a summary is you can make computations on a machine - -710 -01:10:38,420 --> 01:10:43,380 -where the machine itself doesn't know what's being computed and this sounds like but you can prove - -711 -01:10:43,380 --> 01:10:48,380 -that it's right right you can prove that it's right and you can do crazy things with it like one - -712 -01:10:48,380 --> 01:10:56,780 -thing that for example i i can imagine us seeing at some point is you know you can make unruggable - -713 -01:10:56,780 --> 01:11:03,040 -compute in a sense you can pay for someone to calculate something for you but you know that they - -714 -01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:08,280 -couldn't have manipulated the calculation yeah and that's like a very very important point especially - -715 -01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:13,300 -if you want to rely on these services right so you cannot let's say i don't know which is what we - -716 -01:11:13,300 --> 01:11:17,040 -already use on the nostril and the bitcoin side just with cryptographic signatures basically you know - -717 -01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:22,480 -that you you yes but that's the static data yeah yeah exactly you can attest to the to the static - -718 -01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:27,920 -data that comes from the same from the correct source and hasn't been tampered with but how that data was - -719 -01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:32,660 -computed we cannot prove that yet yeah so with zero knowledge compute like i just want to make an - -720 -01:11:32,660 --> 01:11:38,460 -example with uh with what we are looking into for cashier right now so in cashier we have i hope - -721 -01:11:38,460 --> 01:11:43,240 -this is not too technical we have like spending conditions in cashier so it's it's similar to a - -722 -01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:49,440 -bitcoin spending condition so uh i pay you a coin and you can only you can only withdraw that coin or - -723 -01:11:49,440 --> 01:11:56,120 -receive that coin if you know the uh the result of a secret like of a riddle for example you have to - -724 -01:11:56,120 --> 01:12:00,780 -for example sign it with your private key or something like that yeah so that's how that's - -725 -01:12:00,780 --> 01:12:05,600 -also how you can lock e-cash to an endpub right exactly like we call that pay to public key and we - -726 -01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,920 -have another spending condition which is called an htlc a hash time lock contract it works the same way - -727 -01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:14,960 -as an htlc in bitcoin so you can only spend the coin if you know the pre-image to a hash or after a - -728 -01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:20,160 -time lock you can withdraw it so we have two different spending conditions in in cashier and people - -729 -01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:24,880 -always ask us like hey can we not add a third one and this idea and that idea and like all these cool - -730 -01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:29,880 -ideas of how to make more spending conditions but we have the problem in cashier that we want - -731 -01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:36,460 -incredible privacy so the more ways you add to spend the coin the worse the privacy for everyone - -732 -01:12:36,460 --> 01:12:42,780 -else becomes you make the unknown sets smaller and smaller because the mint needs to execute the - -733 -01:12:42,780 --> 01:12:47,560 -spending condition and so it needs to see the spending condition so like it's a complicated way - -734 -01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:53,520 -of saying if the two of us have a contract of how to spend a coin we need to show the mint the - -735 -01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:58,300 -contract and your signature for example on top of that and the mint would look at the contract and - -736 -01:12:58,300 --> 01:13:04,100 -see like public key a public key b and time log and blah blah blah okay it's valid you can get the - -737 -01:13:04,100 --> 01:13:10,040 -coin right so that's how it works today with a what we've been looking into is a zero knowledge - -738 -01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:17,320 -spending condition and this is this is based on work by people at startware who have built a vm called - -739 -01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:25,900 -cairo and in cairo cairo is a vm in which you can build uh spending conditions or programs in zero - -740 -01:13:25,900 --> 01:13:32,820 -knowledge what that means is that you write normal code and you can then execute this code and while - -741 -01:13:32,820 --> 01:13:39,080 -executing you can also produce a proof that you have correctly executed the code so basically i could - -742 -01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:44,280 -give you the proof after executing the program i could give you the proof without showing you the - -743 -01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:48,800 -program i can prove to you that i have executed it correctly yeah yeah and like that's the magic - -744 -01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:55,180 -point so getting back to cashew what we want want to see at at some point is a spending condition that - -745 -01:13:55,180 --> 01:14:01,500 -is zero knowledge so that you and me can make a contract and you can say like i want a signature - -746 -01:14:01,500 --> 01:14:06,780 -from this public key i want time to has passed until this point and so on and so forth i want the moon - -747 -01:14:06,780 --> 01:14:13,140 -to be in a special position and the weather in in madeira to be this and that degree like all these - -748 -01:14:13,140 --> 01:14:18,400 -different uh variables inside there which make it a very specific spending condition which means it's - -749 -01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:24,080 -very bad for privacy if we would release this spending condition to the mint and what what you - -750 -01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:29,540 -can do instead with zero knowledge compute is we can agree on that very complicated contract you and me - -751 -01:14:29,540 --> 01:14:36,100 -and then we can put it into cairo and produce a proof that we have correctly executed the proof and now we - -752 -01:14:36,100 --> 01:14:42,300 -can go to the mint and say hey mint me and this other user have come to an agreement of a certain - -753 -01:14:42,300 --> 01:14:46,760 -contract and we are not going to show you the contract but we're just going to show you that - -754 -01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:51,320 -we have correctly executed the contract without even telling you what the specific details are - -755 -01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:56,780 -and the mint can then verify this proof and say okay you guys seem to agree so you can make the - -756 -01:14:56,780 --> 01:15:03,640 -transaction so this is one example of how you can make a computation applied to cashew where we don't - -757 -01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:10,500 -have to tell the the verifier which is in this case the mint what we actually did so coming back to - -758 -01:15:10,500 --> 01:15:17,960 -the earlier example if i could rent a piece of compute from a server and i could just tell it - -759 -01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:26,180 -you know i want to compute uh some kind of operation on my data set that is like a for example it's a - -760 -01:15:26,180 --> 01:15:29,780 -secret data set i'm a company with secrets or something like that i don't want to share the - -761 -01:15:29,780 --> 01:15:36,460 -data set but i still want you to make a computation on the data set i could give that to you in a form - -762 -01:15:36,460 --> 01:15:42,480 -that is hidden so it's this is called you know sometimes homomorphic encryption but you can do - -763 -01:15:42,480 --> 01:15:49,140 -operations on that and give me the results and i can verify that you've done the correct operations - -764 -01:15:49,140 --> 01:15:55,400 -on top of it without me ever showing you what the data was yeah so i know this all sounds a bit weird - -765 -01:15:55,400 --> 01:16:01,980 -and crazy and zero knowledge proofs are weird and crazy but they open up a whole new world of - -766 -01:16:01,980 --> 01:16:08,080 -computation so i want to end this monologue with one vision that i really want to see in like 10 - -767 -01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:16,920 -years is we today rely on hardware security modules to make sure that our hardware has not been - -768 -01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:21,700 -tempered with this is in bitcoin hardware wallace this is sometimes also in phones these days and so - -769 -01:16:21,700 --> 01:16:29,760 -on so forth i can see a future where we carry a phone in our pocket that runs the os in a zero - -770 -01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:38,360 -knowledge vm and at the same time produces a proof that the vm executed the code of the os correctly - -771 -01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:43,740 -and some other part of it that checks this so we can look in the moment where someone tampers with - -772 -01:16:43,740 --> 01:16:50,060 -your phone you can immediately detect that something has gone wrong without relying on specific hardware - -773 -01:16:50,060 --> 01:16:54,860 -that again relies on the fact that no one can look into the hardware like a hardware security module - -774 -01:16:54,860 --> 01:17:03,460 -so yeah zero knowledge is definitely going to have like a massive effect on things how we can prove - -775 -01:17:03,460 --> 01:17:08,880 -things in cyberspace without showing what we prove which is a condition for most of the things that we - -776 -01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:14,080 -want to that we want to do like we have so much private data and we need to operate on the private data - -777 -01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:18,560 -but we don't want to share it with anyone you think 10 years is a realistic time frame - -778 -01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:25,360 -i mean you usually underestimate how fast things go into the future so it's probably it's probably even - -779 -01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:30,980 -too bearish to be honest it's probably too bearish that's a good point yeah that's a good point it's - -780 -01:17:30,980 --> 01:17:38,020 -especially now with uh i really feel that stuff is accelerating um in in terms of kind of also - -781 -01:17:38,020 --> 01:17:44,140 -compute innovation in some sense i think the llms are just kind of you know um kicking things into - -782 -01:17:44,140 --> 01:17:50,980 -high gear because you can just iterate so much more quickly in on so many things and i mean material - -783 -01:17:50,980 --> 01:17:54,840 -science is another or i mentioned protein folding before you know it's just like you throw the llms - -784 -01:17:54,840 --> 01:18:00,140 -on it and suddenly it's like oh okay we have new stuff and a new material that we can synthesize that - -785 -01:18:00,140 --> 01:18:05,700 -is stable or like new proteins and i view code as the same way where it's just like you you shoot the llms - -786 -01:18:05,700 --> 01:18:10,620 -at it and and something comes out that you after the fact maybe understand basically - -787 -01:18:10,620 --> 01:18:17,180 -and that will just accelerate stuff things are going freaking exponential yeah yeah it's it's uh - -788 -01:18:17,180 --> 01:18:25,260 -you know i was big on the on the singularity idea uh um in my past and and oh yeah me too and - -789 -01:18:25,260 --> 01:18:30,400 -you know like kurzweil and those people they were onto something i still don't think that we're gonna - -790 -01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:35,660 -upload ourselves into the cloud and you know live in utopia ever after in cyberspace like not at all - -791 -01:18:35,660 --> 01:18:43,820 -and i'm not optimistic but i i think yes i would also bet on the fact that he will die - -792 -01:18:43,820 --> 01:18:51,620 -but um you know big innovations happen stepwise it's so hard to predict what's going to happen - -793 -01:18:51,620 --> 01:18:57,660 -no one would have thought you know i've just recently saw this video about uh the number of - -794 -01:18:57,660 --> 01:19:03,820 -proteins that we have identified and this was a tedious process and people were like building - -795 -01:19:03,820 --> 01:19:09,180 -algorithms to predict the folding structure of proteins for years and years and we had like - -796 -01:19:09,180 --> 01:19:13,740 -one thousand per year and then we had like maybe like one thousand five hundred it was an exponential - -797 -01:19:13,740 --> 01:19:21,660 -two thousand per year and then um we built an llm that can do it and the number of of identified - -798 -01:19:21,660 --> 01:19:27,260 -proteins just shot up like by i don't know it's like you don't even see the graph anymore - -799 -01:19:27,260 --> 01:19:31,420 -of all the proteins when you hit the knee of the curve right it's like it goes up and up and - -800 -01:19:31,420 --> 01:19:36,220 -the problem is solved and this was with with the genome as well so hard to predict so hard to - -801 -01:19:36,220 --> 01:19:42,060 -predict real innovation comes in unpredictable steps yeah so we really don't know how things - -802 -01:19:42,060 --> 01:19:47,740 -will work out but but it's still like a lot of the things that's kind of what what surprises me - -803 -01:19:47,740 --> 01:19:53,900 -all the time it's also very hard to predict like what yeah just again it's it's i love the phrase - -804 -01:19:53,900 --> 01:19:59,900 -it's very hard to make predictions especially about the future you know um but for example the switch - -805 -01:19:59,900 --> 01:20:10,140 -from ip4 ipv4 to ipv6 is still you know like far off from done like like upgrading a network it - -806 -01:20:10,140 --> 01:20:17,100 -it turns out it's like really hard and and so it's funny that some things happen really quickly - -807 -01:20:17,100 --> 01:20:23,820 -way more quickly than you would think they would and other things way like take way longer or even - -808 -01:20:23,820 --> 01:20:32,220 -to pick another example um that might be actually a good a good analogy like in in in developing - -809 -01:20:32,220 --> 01:20:39,660 -countries they completely skipped the infrastructure that we needed to arrive at cell phones so we needed - -810 -01:20:39,660 --> 01:20:47,260 -you know like copper wires and then uh you know like the landlines yeah exactly and and i think like to - -811 -01:20:47,260 --> 01:20:55,500 -bring it back to to to lightning and e-cash and so on it's like if if our assumptions are correct - -812 -01:20:55,500 --> 01:21:01,820 -and e-cash will actually uh be the thing that you know fixes 402 and and and allows all these things - -813 -01:21:01,820 --> 01:21:07,900 -to happen that we just kind of sketched out i think in a lot of systems and areas not only geographically - -814 -01:21:07,900 --> 01:21:13,980 -geographic areas but just like cyberspace areas you can just use e-cash without knowing anything about - -815 -01:21:13,980 --> 01:21:17,260 -bitcoin or lightning or whatever it's like you know like maybe you know a little bit about - -816 -01:21:17,260 --> 01:21:20,540 -lightning if you're running mint but that's it but you can just build it into your thing - -817 -01:21:21,100 --> 01:21:26,700 -leapfrogging all this stuff and just like in a in a developing country you have a phone and that's it - -818 -01:21:27,420 --> 01:21:31,420 -you have e-cash and that's it does that make sense yes it makes sense and we need to find like - -819 -01:21:31,420 --> 01:21:37,660 -more ways how we can accelerate the exponential growth and the use of bitcoin at the end of the day - -820 -01:21:38,220 --> 01:21:43,580 -i think like i've been observing the development and spreading of bitcoin really eagerly - -821 -01:21:43,980 --> 01:21:50,540 -in the past years and it is slower than most people anticipated that's for sure like most - -822 -01:21:50,540 --> 01:21:54,700 -people thought that we'd be paying for most like you would have the option to pay with bitcoin - -823 -01:21:55,740 --> 01:22:02,380 -everywhere by this time it's very local it's it's very local it's very hard and similar to hardware - -824 -01:22:02,380 --> 01:22:09,740 -and networks as you said it grows much slower than people thought yeah because you have to upgrade the - -825 -01:22:09,740 --> 01:22:15,100 -network of merchants basically so merchant adoption uh that was the first kind of you know like uh - -826 -01:22:15,740 --> 01:22:21,660 -the scam kind of wave of bitcoin adoption oh it's all the merchants but but but i think the the current - -827 -01:22:21,660 --> 01:22:27,180 -wave is very different because the most people that um i mean i know a little bit about this stuff - -828 -01:22:27,180 --> 01:22:34,300 -just by being in places where bitcoin is accepted most merchants they hold all the bitcoin so the previous - -829 -01:22:34,300 --> 01:22:39,900 -adoption waves were always like as used as a payment rail and now it's kind of uh used as a - -830 -01:22:40,940 --> 01:22:46,620 -you know savings yeah so that's a big difference i feel like so i think it won't go away should we do - -831 -01:22:46,620 --> 01:22:50,940 -one more ring around the rosie and then we can end in like a maybe a spot where there isn't too much - -832 -01:22:50,940 --> 01:22:56,140 -wind sounds good yeah that's but i'm i'm getting close to my limit in terms of i think it's just walking - -833 -01:22:56,140 --> 01:23:05,100 -in the sun also like i'm at the end of my mental capabilities but i think just being in the sun - -834 -01:23:05,100 --> 01:23:12,460 -makes it worse it makes thinking even harder but it's nice right so that is a pretty butterfly - -835 -01:23:13,180 --> 01:23:17,180 -yeah look at this butterfly oh wow that's what she said but there was a lady who just made us aware - -836 -01:23:17,180 --> 01:23:24,540 -of a beautiful butterfly butterflies are rare these days but yeah i i hope that nostr will accelerate - -837 -01:23:24,540 --> 01:23:30,620 -things in some way but that's that's what i kind of i mean i'm very biased i know that i'm i'm - -838 -01:23:30,620 --> 01:23:36,460 -insanely biased i'm kind of like in a bubble of a bubble i surround myself with with like i pick my - -839 -01:23:36,460 --> 01:23:43,020 -i curate my echo chamber very very very carefully and i live in a very bubbly place as well but it's - -840 -01:23:43,020 --> 01:23:48,380 -the way i see it is like i i met a bunch of people now and i know people from online they had no idea - -841 -01:23:48,380 --> 01:23:53,420 -about bitcoin had no idea about lightning didn't know what sets were signed up to nostr got sapped and it - -842 -01:23:53,420 --> 01:23:58,300 -was fun and cool and so on and then later on they found out what's kind of going on and what happened - -843 -01:23:58,300 --> 01:24:03,580 -and so on and i think i hope that this will continue to happen where you just you you sign up to obscura - -844 -01:24:03,580 --> 01:24:07,740 -and and you just you just want to get a vpn and there's a new thing of payment whatever you just do - -845 -01:24:07,740 --> 01:24:11,900 -it ah i can do this and then that's on you don't even know what what happened i see the same thing - -846 -01:24:11,900 --> 01:24:17,420 -happening now with with nostr with things like olas i really love it like people sign up to olas - -847 -01:24:17,420 --> 01:24:22,140 -because they want to try this thing and then they know oh my god there's a whole universe attached to - -848 -01:24:22,140 --> 01:24:26,380 -your olas that i didn't know about or you didn't have to know about and that's how kind of the - -849 -01:24:26,380 --> 01:24:31,500 -internet worked right that's why why i to me nostr feels so much like the early internet where you - -850 -01:24:31,500 --> 01:24:36,620 -have one entry point and it was i don't know what it was back in the day but just i mean i i still - -851 -01:24:36,620 --> 01:24:41,980 -remember the days where i would go through computer magazines and i would manually write down urls so - -852 -01:24:41,980 --> 01:24:46,940 -you're like oh my it's not only aol i thought it's just the start page of aol - -853 -01:24:48,220 --> 01:24:54,860 -and then you you discover this is this vast universe of stuff so now we live in an echo chamber okay but - -854 -01:24:54,860 --> 01:24:59,580 -it feels like to me still that the topics that we care about are universal it's not like small topics - -855 -01:24:59,580 --> 01:25:06,220 -that we care about we we care about the bigger bigger things so and that's where like it all comes - -856 -01:25:06,220 --> 01:25:12,380 -together so nicely i really think we're getting back to bitcoin adoption as well merchant adoption - -857 -01:25:12,380 --> 01:25:18,060 -is slow individuals understanding bitcoin is super slow education itself is like super slow - -858 -01:25:18,620 --> 01:25:24,700 -and i applaud everyone who puts their energy into into these endeavors i really really respect that - -859 -01:25:25,260 --> 01:25:34,140 -but what i really hope to see and this was my first thought when i discovered bitcoin is i thought - -860 -01:25:34,140 --> 01:25:40,300 -it's the perfect thing for the internet the money of the internet it's the internet's own money and so - -861 -01:25:40,300 --> 01:25:47,980 -what i want to see in 10 15 20 years us doing is for all of our activity where we make transactions - -862 -01:25:47,980 --> 01:25:53,820 -online there is no question it's going to be bitcoin it's going to be based on bitcoin and it's going - -863 -01:25:53,820 --> 01:25:59,100 -to be so much larger than the payments that you make at the store here and it's going to spread so much - -864 -01:25:59,100 --> 01:26:05,020 -faster than the merchants accepting bitcoin in a pos system in a store here these are all important - -865 -01:26:05,020 --> 01:26:11,100 -things that we also need to work on but the internet is only going to grow the number of people - -866 -01:26:11,100 --> 01:26:16,540 -using the internet is only going to grow the services that you're going to consume the number of services - -867 -01:26:16,540 --> 01:26:23,020 -only going to grow all of these things just point completely upwards and what we need to make sure - -868 -01:26:23,020 --> 01:26:29,340 -is that we can connect all these things with a system like nostra and make sure that we can pay - -869 -01:26:29,340 --> 01:26:35,580 -with for all these things with a system like bitcoin and then it's like the sky is the limit it's the - -870 -01:26:35,580 --> 01:26:43,420 -the pie is so big the pie is so big the only ones eating the pie right now are facebook meta and like - -871 -01:26:43,420 --> 01:26:49,340 -credit card systems what do you see what do you see as the next step because i i i completely agree but i i - -872 -01:26:49,340 --> 01:26:58,300 -kind of what i what i uh sometimes wreck my brain about is what's the the next plausible step that - -873 -01:26:58,300 --> 01:27:03,980 -we could take that someone could build that someone could do like on a general level i have like i - -874 -01:27:03,980 --> 01:27:09,020 -cannot give you like an idea for a specific app or something but on a general level i think we need to - -875 -01:27:09,020 --> 01:27:16,220 -bring down the cost of entry for everything as soon as someone just automatically can join these systems - -876 -01:27:16,220 --> 01:27:21,740 -and naturally receive naturally have an identity that they connect with other applications i think - -877 -01:27:21,740 --> 01:27:26,460 -like that's the best way we can do because that's our superpower we don't like the others don't have - -878 -01:27:26,460 --> 01:27:31,980 -the superpower they all they need to compete something only we can take away not saps for example - -879 -01:27:31,980 --> 01:27:37,820 -not saps is only something we can do yes that's not something that only we can do not saps is like a - -880 -01:27:37,820 --> 01:27:44,300 -zap on on on nostra with e-cash no one can build an alternative to this system and i think if we can - -881 -01:27:44,300 --> 01:27:49,980 -lower the barrier of entry such that you don't even have to spend a single cycle of your brain to be - -882 -01:27:49,980 --> 01:27:55,100 -able to use these systems this is how we're going to this is how we're going to win we we have to we - -883 -01:27:55,100 --> 01:27:59,980 -have to kind of you know get people where they're at i think that's why why olas for example works - -884 -01:27:59,980 --> 01:28:05,500 -really well because everyone knows kind of comparable systems like instagram and so on it's it's but - -885 -01:28:05,500 --> 01:28:09,180 -again like i mentioned this a couple of times in the past but it's like the the power that i see the - -886 -01:28:09,180 --> 01:28:14,140 -power of cryptographic identities is basically it's it's one click setup yes this is part of it you don't need to - -887 -01:28:14,140 --> 01:28:19,100 -make an account like why would you need one click you're in and the power of nuts apps you don't need - -888 -01:28:19,100 --> 01:28:24,140 -an account to receive cash on your in your store that you pop up exactly and the power of nuts apps - -889 -01:28:24,140 --> 01:28:28,140 -is like you you one click create your account and immediately like you you suddenly have money in - -890 -01:28:28,140 --> 01:28:32,940 -your in your in your pocket you can receive instantly and no one asks you who you are yeah now do this please - -891 -01:28:32,940 --> 01:28:37,740 -yeah eight billion people yeah no that's very very powerful so i'll share one of my ideas that i've been - -892 -01:28:37,740 --> 01:28:43,580 -stewing on for at least the last like six or ten months or so so as you might know the internet - -893 -01:28:43,580 --> 01:28:50,140 -archive almost went down just because of a lawsuit and and so so i would love to see - -894 -01:28:51,820 --> 01:28:58,220 -um i would love to see us rebuild the internet archive and do it properly so that this cannot - -895 -01:28:58,220 --> 01:29:04,380 -happen again we talked about this very very briefly over coffee that it's like it's funny how the - -896 -01:29:04,380 --> 01:29:09,660 -internet is both forever and the internet remembers everything but at the same time stuff goes away and - -897 -01:29:09,660 --> 01:29:14,220 -and links 404 and uh you have link rot and bit rot and all those kind of things so both are kind - -898 -01:29:14,220 --> 01:29:18,780 -of true at the same time i think if something is juicy and spicy enough the internet will remember - -899 -01:29:18,780 --> 01:29:24,620 -forever if something is kind of supposed to be forgotten yeah exactly if something is embarrassing - -900 -01:29:24,620 --> 01:29:30,620 -it will stay around forever and and and many other things but just just go away so we have like - -901 -01:29:30,620 --> 01:29:36,220 -little little fires of uh the library of alexandria like all the time you know stuff just goes away and - -902 -01:29:36,220 --> 01:29:42,300 -and i'm i'm i'm somewhat of an of an of an archivist so so i uh you know like i'm a - -903 -01:29:43,340 --> 01:29:47,500 -hunter and gatherer in cyberspace and i i really i i hate losing stuff - -904 -01:29:49,260 --> 01:29:57,580 -and so what the the shift that i see that i hope will happen in the next couple of years is not only a - -905 -01:29:57,580 --> 01:30:05,260 -move away from silos to you know uh to to bitcoin industrial to the underlying substrates that allow for - -906 -01:30:05,260 --> 01:30:09,980 -marketplace style of doing things um so i really hope that but again like - -907 -01:30:11,980 --> 01:30:16,060 -the issue i see right now it is related to what you said education and all those kind of things - -908 -01:30:16,060 --> 01:30:20,540 -because it doesn't come for free you have to take responsibility for it and so we have to also - -909 -01:30:20,540 --> 01:30:26,220 -educate users and and not everyone is going to make the jump because it actually you have to take - -910 -01:30:26,220 --> 01:30:30,300 -responsibility for at least for your keys for example and those kind of things so so it's not it's not - -911 -01:30:30,300 --> 01:30:35,420 -it's not like super super easy but it's still it increases your agency and i think that's why it - -912 -01:30:35,420 --> 01:30:38,860 -will happen on the edges like people that will get the platform people that will get the banked - -913 -01:30:38,860 --> 01:30:45,020 -and so on they will discover those things early on earlier than most but anyway i hope that we can - -914 -01:30:45,020 --> 01:30:52,140 -so the move that i see is from a global view and we see this like in in society at large where you - -915 -01:30:52,140 --> 01:30:56,700 -you know like uh think global act local those kind of things that people going back to their local - -916 -01:30:56,700 --> 01:31:00,780 -farmers and those kind of things and i hope that we'll have we'll have the same thing in cyberspace - -917 -01:31:00,780 --> 01:31:08,700 -in some in some sense um so so what i hope to see is the stuff that you really care about personally - -918 -01:31:09,740 --> 01:31:16,460 -you can archive it in a i hate this word i'm gonna use it anyway in a decentralized way - -919 -01:31:16,460 --> 01:31:21,100 -you can archive it on your home relay or on your like phone relay even or what have you - -920 -01:31:21,100 --> 01:31:26,780 -and that we have just kind of like there's a swarm of people just like we talked with with - -921 -01:31:26,780 --> 01:31:32,460 -airbnb and this kind of things like if you want to invite people into your house you can and you can - -922 -01:31:32,460 --> 01:31:40,140 -get paid if you want to invite websites and youtube videos and uh and songs into your local relay or - -923 -01:31:40,140 --> 01:31:46,940 -into your local blossom server or what have you you can and i think i think that's a way way smarter way of - -924 -01:31:46,940 --> 01:31:52,220 -of building an internet archive where you have local archives that can if they want to talk to - -925 -01:31:52,220 --> 01:31:57,580 -each other and that way i think we we we just kind of re-decentralize the internet in some way because - -926 -01:31:57,580 --> 01:32:02,700 -i the reason why i work on all this stuff is like i just like you i really care about the internet - -927 -01:32:02,700 --> 01:32:08,700 -i'm still i i grew up with the utopic vision of the internet i i grew up with all that stuff and i - -928 -01:32:08,700 --> 01:32:14,940 -really think again i don't believe in utopia anymore i'm i'm too old for that but but i i still - -929 -01:32:14,940 --> 01:32:20,140 -think the internet is amazing and i i hate to see it go to shit and i think that what i see with - -930 -01:32:20,140 --> 01:32:27,580 -nostr is kind of like a a rebirth where where it aims for amazing again and to me like nostr feels - -931 -01:32:27,580 --> 01:32:34,700 -looks and feels amazing and and i i hope that like with the right ideas basically and with the right - -932 -01:32:34,700 --> 01:32:39,980 -principles and morals embedded in the whole thing i really think we can get one step closer to the - -933 -01:32:39,980 --> 01:32:44,300 -vision that the early internet people had it's again it's not going to be utopia again it's like and - -934 -01:32:44,300 --> 01:32:48,780 -there's going to be like terrible side effects and other things as well like i know that much - -935 -01:32:48,780 --> 01:32:53,420 -we learned so much i know that i know that stuff was going to be shit as well but still i i think i - -936 -01:32:53,420 --> 01:32:59,740 -think trying to to rebuild an internet archive for example would be would be an awesome next step - -937 -01:32:59,740 --> 01:33:04,460 -and then we can take things from there because everything shares the same architecture in some - -938 -01:33:04,460 --> 01:33:09,100 -sense like the the architecture is universal the principles are universal and it applies to so many - -939 -01:33:09,100 --> 01:33:14,620 -things and and also we see it now with journalism and and writing and so on i i one last tangent - -940 -01:33:14,620 --> 01:33:20,220 -and it's tangent after tangent but it's like the reason my books are so great is because books are - -941 -01:33:20,220 --> 01:33:25,820 -inherently decentralized it's like e-readers and so on are great too but but if you just pull your - -942 -01:33:25,820 --> 01:33:30,380 -stuff from amazon then it sucks because then it's just like one finger snip and and the book is gone - -943 -01:33:30,380 --> 01:33:35,980 -books are so great try to get rid of of books try to get rid of one single edition of a book if - -944 -01:33:35,980 --> 01:33:40,380 -there's like 10 000 copies and they're all over the world well good luck and it's crazy that we - -945 -01:33:40,380 --> 01:33:44,940 -have not achieved this in the digital realm yet it's it's insane right and you know we don't have - -946 -01:33:44,940 --> 01:33:49,100 -it inside space and there's anna's archive now yeah we have it with torrents and with some of the - -947 -01:33:49,100 --> 01:33:53,980 -single projects and like the cedars you can look at the statistics it's like one to two sources we - -948 -01:33:53,980 --> 01:33:58,940 -have the biggest sources of information that the world has ever produced we have this marvelous - -949 -01:33:58,940 --> 01:34:03,820 -technology of the internet that connects us all all our hardware all our resources yeah but we're - -950 -01:34:03,820 --> 01:34:10,940 -still at a point where like a single server basically can burn and we lose massive amounts - -951 -01:34:10,940 --> 01:34:17,100 -of information that humanity has produced until now we can still have alexandria moments we can - -952 -01:34:17,100 --> 01:34:21,020 -still have alexandria that's what we've been building we've been building libraries of alexandria for - -953 -01:34:21,020 --> 01:34:26,300 -everything yes and i really hope that we can get out of silos yeah and and so so that's why i'm a huge - -954 -01:34:26,300 --> 01:34:31,100 -fan of local copies and because because and there are these communities of people that know this you - -955 -01:34:31,100 --> 01:34:35,580 -know like there there are the people that build anna's archive and those kind of things there is - -956 -01:34:35,580 --> 01:34:40,860 -a group of people that knows this and they will store their files on their own hard disks and and - -957 -01:34:40,860 --> 01:34:45,180 -and periodically will make backups and put the hard disks in the bunkers that they have and so on you - -958 -01:34:45,180 --> 01:34:50,540 -know and so we i feel like we need to tap into those people and make this this style of dealing with - -959 -01:34:50,540 --> 01:34:55,340 -data way easier and it's the noster native way of doing things that's why i think the marriage of - -960 -01:34:55,340 --> 01:34:59,740 -noster and those kind of things is is so awesome because because in the end like i'll i mean i've - -961 -01:34:59,740 --> 01:35:05,180 -spoke about this a million times basically but i i feel like i'm a broken record but but the way - -962 -01:35:05,180 --> 01:35:10,700 -that youtube works youtube doesn't have one server if you if you're in germany and you fetch a youtube - -963 -01:35:10,700 --> 01:35:15,500 -video it will come from a german youtube server so so so so just to be efficient you have to build things - -964 -01:35:16,460 --> 01:35:21,260 -everyone knows that you have to build content delivery networks and and it has to be replicated and so on - -965 -01:35:21,260 --> 01:35:27,900 -and so noster does this by default yes and so so so you get so much for free in the noster world - -966 -01:35:27,900 --> 01:35:32,460 -where it's like you you maybe have a relay on your phone you maybe have a relay on your home server - -967 -01:35:32,460 --> 01:35:37,660 -maybe like a synology or start nine or what have you and depending on the context and depending on - -968 -01:35:37,660 --> 01:35:42,220 -what you care about stuff will be stored in this relay and i think what ecash brings to the table - -969 -01:35:42,220 --> 01:35:46,380 -what i'm so excited about is like okay let's build all up all these archives and we're like - -970 -01:35:46,380 --> 01:35:50,540 -beyond early with all this stuff we don't even have the archives really yet but make it easy to build - -971 -01:35:50,540 --> 01:35:55,500 -up local archives and if you share the underlying substrate and if things can talk to each other - -972 -01:35:55,500 --> 01:35:58,940 -which which they can by default if again if you build it right if you build it on noster and all - -973 -01:35:58,940 --> 01:36:04,940 -those kind of things you can by marrying it with ecash open it up and create a marketplace you can for - -974 -01:36:04,940 --> 01:36:09,500 -example create a marketplace for hashes you know you want this book you know you want this pdf you know - -975 -01:36:09,500 --> 01:36:15,500 -you want this meme whatever and and and who can give it to me fastest i'm willing to pay sets for it - -976 -01:36:15,500 --> 01:36:20,860 -all those kind of things you know and so so i really hope that we can we can we can you know - -977 -01:36:20,860 --> 01:36:25,340 -like learn from the mistakes of the past and stop building libraries of alexander it's so beautiful - -978 -01:36:25,340 --> 01:36:33,420 -like we we converge on this is the early values are still the most important values it's the distribution - -979 -01:36:33,420 --> 01:36:41,100 -of information it's the commerce between peer-to-peer commerce between people and making it's the knowledge - -980 -01:36:41,100 --> 01:36:44,780 -which that is embedded in the market and it's also net neutrality because zero knowledge compute - -981 -01:36:45,500 --> 01:36:50,780 -it is it is natural net neutrality in the same sense blinded custodians and blinded compute and - -982 -01:36:50,780 --> 01:36:57,260 -all those kind of things it it leads to neutrality neutrality of money yeah yes yeah that's a nice - -983 -01:36:57,260 --> 01:37:02,540 -that's a nice way to end it right yes it's a beautiful way to end it awesome let's let's build it out - -984 -01:37:02,540 --> 01:37:08,380 -man i appreciate you really i appreciate you too like i i i i hope that we can make it happen i'm - -985 -01:37:08,380 --> 01:37:13,660 -becoming all emotional thank you for this conversation yeah that was great let's see - -986 -01:37:13,660 --> 01:37:18,460 -let's see let's see if we if we if we managed or if we fucked it up maybe it was just between us too - -987 -01:37:18,460 --> 01:37:19,820 -that would be it would be nice too - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/05 - Prompt and Pray - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/05 - Prompt and Pray - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index b588a482..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/05 - Prompt and Pray - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,44 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "Prompt and Pray" (Episode 05) - -**Context:** An ankle-injured walk-turned-park-chat where Gigi and Paul riff on AI-assisted "vibe coding," nostalgia for the early web, and how Sovereign Engineering cohorts can avoid repeating Silicon-Valley mistakes. - -## Core Themes & Insights - -1. **Prompt → Pray → Ship** - • Large-language models feel like hiring 200 junior devs—if you give clear prompts. - • The hard part shifts to intent-design: decide _why_ & _what_ before invoking the machines. - • "Prompt-and-pray" is a feature, not a bug—rapid iterations beat perfect plans. - -2. **Hyper-Personal Computing** - • Early PCs were _yours_; today's browser/phone is a billboard in a walled garden. - • Ben's Hypernote idea revives GeoCities-style self-hosting plus micro-apps powered by Nostr/NDK. - • Goal: one-click deploy of file-centric, local-first tools that sync via relays—no SaaS trap. - -3. **Agency Requires Mistake Space** - • Sharp knives cut steak _and_ fingers; freedom implies risk. - • UX shouldn't over-nanny Bitcoin/Lightning users—better to let newcomers learn (and recover) than hide complexity forever. - • Forgiveness & versioning (tit-for-tat) build robust communities. - -4. **Blinded Infrastructure** - • Ecash mints, zero-knowledge compute and blinded storage shift liability away from service providers. - • Rate-limiting with sats > KYC; privacy by math, not policy. - -5. **Wisdom > Information** - • The web confuses data with knowledge; Sovereign Engineering looks for "old-wise-guy" patterns to avoid past failures. - • Distributed cognition (walk-and-talk, group chat, public Nostr threads) surfaces better vocabulary—e.g., _blinded custodian_, _self-verifying data_. - -6. **Multi-Generational Mindset** - • Tech should be built like cathedrals: grandchildren can still use it. - • Files, open protocols and human-scale markets (pay-per-use) outlive VC-funded silos. - -## Implications for Sovereign Engineering Cohorts - -• Encourage "prompt & pray" prototypes—quantity begets quality. -• Default to local-first file workflows; sync via Nostr relays, pay via sats. -• Bake mistake-recovery into apps (version history, test faucets). -• Use group walks & chats to coin shared language; wisdom compounds socially. -• Design projects your future cohorts can inherit—no fragile guru-ware. - -> "Computers should do computer work—so humans can touch grass and build cathedrals." —Episode takeaway - -Episode 05 underscores Sovereign Engineering's bias for action: wield AI and open protocols to reclaim _personal_ computing, but keep humans in the loop for meaning and long-term stewardship. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/05 - Prompt and Pray.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/05 - Prompt and Pray.srt deleted file mode 100644 index e6b03a50..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/05 - Prompt and Pray.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,3956 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,340 -there we go now we're now we're good a little snap i'll just hand you this i don't know i'm - -2 -00:00:07,340 --> 00:00:14,560 -just gonna clip it so i don't have to hold it but yeah no walking today so it's gonna be an - -3 -00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:21,580 -outside sitting and yeah what happened what ended your walking career i i i built my whole - -4 -00:00:21,580 --> 00:00:26,880 -professional life around walking and i broke my ankle a couple days ago basically so - -5 -00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:33,660 -no uh change of plans i rock pulled myself walking is still very good for you and healthy but let's - -6 -00:00:33,660 --> 00:00:37,000 -see if we can get the brain juices flowing even if we're sitting - -7 -00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:44,960 -so what should we talk about nostr you have an awesome nostr t-shirt by the way oh thank you - -8 -00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:52,320 -this is the lightning store the no effects ripoff are we just being nostalgic about the old internet - -9 -00:00:52,320 --> 00:01:00,720 -yeah i've been thinking about that yes i think no i think what we're nostalgic for - -10 -00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:08,940 -is what we thought where we thought the internet was going what we thought we had yeah what we - -11 -00:01:08,940 --> 00:01:16,160 -thought we had i've been i've been trying to trace my interest in technology and i used to read the - -12 -00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:25,540 -tech magazines back the day and i just had this sense of of where things were going and it was - -13 -00:01:25,540 --> 00:01:34,380 -it was it was very optimistic and uh i was very excited about it i loved desktop uis and things - -14 -00:01:34,380 --> 00:01:39,780 -like that it's like where did i get all this love for all these things that now are kind of frustrating - -15 -00:01:39,780 --> 00:01:45,080 -in for me and it's like well i think they just stopped delivering on those promises like when - -16 -00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:52,240 -you had a good mac os 9 desktop ui you had this whole interface that was very in harmony - -17 -00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:59,160 -and a similar ui kind of for everything a similar use aesthetic even microsoft outlook on mac os 9 - -18 -00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:06,180 -looked like a mac os 9 out everything drag and dropped onto each other yeah and then we built - -19 -00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:13,040 -the web browser which is kind of really it's an operating system inside of an operating system - -20 -00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:22,880 -and everything looks like a like a billboard ad on the side of the road yeah and everything behaves - -21 -00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:30,020 -kind of differently and then the business model is really for things to not talk to each other - -22 -00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:36,060 -maybe if you're lucky you can pay to unlock communication across your internet apps - -23 -00:02:36,060 --> 00:02:42,200 -and and so people who fell in love with the computers when they were this kind of you know - -24 -00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:50,660 -unified personal thing i think at least for me find you know the current state of things kind of - -25 -00:02:50,660 --> 00:02:56,100 -kind of frustrating do you think we have a chance of building our way out of the digital gulags - -26 -00:02:56,100 --> 00:03:02,740 -i think yes i think more than ever i think we just have to we actually just have to build it - -27 -00:03:02,740 --> 00:03:11,940 -i do think there's it's a mindset shift of uh this is done for me versus it turns out i kind of have - -28 -00:03:11,940 --> 00:03:17,780 -to do this for myself you know i i've hit this flip with my friends recently where all the best meals i - -29 -00:03:17,780 --> 00:03:25,920 -have are cooked by my friends like i have several friends who can do a better ribeye than the best - -30 -00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:32,960 -steakhouse i've been to in austin texas yeah so you know we need to become yeah we need to make - -31 -00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:39,760 -home-cooked meals of apps out of love for one another and that's i think how we can get better - -32 -00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:45,720 -software we we landed on this already in in one of those conversations where it's like the the whole - -33 -00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:52,880 -web switched from an active thing that you have to explore actively and you have to put some work in - -34 -00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:58,540 -but depending on what kind of work you put in you'll get you'll you'll get results like you'll - -35 -00:03:58,540 --> 00:04:02,700 -get something out of it and the more work you would put in the more you would get out of it and so on - -36 -00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:10,360 -to it's completely being flipped now with just like passive stuff with with tiktok being the epitome of - -37 -00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:17,860 -passivity where it's just like please entertain me you know like put like you're not you don't even - -38 -00:04:17,860 --> 00:04:22,720 -want to think for yourself anymore it's just like please do everything including the thinking for me - -39 -00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:28,180 -and just entertain me and it's just like passively scrolling through things and you know feeding the - -40 -00:04:28,180 --> 00:04:36,480 -slot machines for the next dopamine hit and so on so so it's it's in part like what i enjoy so much - -41 -00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:44,300 -about nostr is because it's so raw still and still so it requires active involvement um and the same for - -42 -00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:48,980 -bitcoin as well i mean it's it's like to to actually use bitcoin in a self-serving way you you actually - -43 -00:04:48,980 --> 00:04:54,720 -actually need to be actively involved and but that also means that you can actively shoot yourself - -44 -00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:03,680 -in the foot and i think this this i think that's that's something that out of necessity has to be - -45 -00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:11,820 -true going forward as well it's like you you if you want to empower users like it's there's always the - -46 -00:05:11,820 --> 00:05:16,400 -same comparisons right like the the if you have a sharp kitchen knife you can cut yourself you can - -47 -00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,980 -stab someone else yes if you if you want to if you teach someone to to defend themselves if you give - -48 -00:05:20,980 --> 00:05:26,540 -if you teach someone how to use a gun they can harm themselves very easily as well and i think i think - -49 -00:05:26,540 --> 00:05:32,720 -that's that's kind of what we're up against like but then when you get like a like a knife at a - -50 -00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:40,560 -restaurant that's like somehow made out of cardboard it folds on the first slice it's like oh i've been - -51 -00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:47,800 -saved from myself and from harming others but also i can't slice the steak anymore so personally i think - -52 -00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,980 -like paper straws are a great indication of the downfall of western civilization well they're illegal - -53 -00:05:52,980 --> 00:06:03,180 -now good good good sorry that you still have to suffer under this yeah no but that's it's it's it's - -54 -00:06:03,180 --> 00:06:07,380 -what i'm trying to say i think is like it's unavoidable if you want to have a powerful tool it's also - -55 -00:06:07,380 --> 00:06:13,540 -going to be a dangerous tool and you need to learn how to wield it and i think if we if we want to - -56 -00:06:13,540 --> 00:06:17,680 -build the next iteration of the internet with the next kind of tool sets and so on you need to - -57 -00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:23,260 -you we need to be okay with people getting wrecked and doing kind of dangerous borderline dangerous - -58 -00:06:23,260 --> 00:06:28,680 -stuff i feel like the last time society was okay with this was with the car like i feel like if - -59 -00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:34,920 -somebody introduced the car today it would be completely illegal yeah you can kill people yeah you - -60 -00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:42,480 -need you need like you need like like a five-year car like a pilot's license basically to drive you - -61 -00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:48,080 -around yeah because otherwise it's just it's much too dangerous yeah yeah that's a good point i think - -62 -00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:55,560 -i i hope when that we can kind of you know again like build our way out of it because i think also if - -63 -00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:01,460 -the if the if the tools exist and are accessible then they will be picked up by those that are brave enough - -64 -00:07:01,460 --> 00:07:09,720 -to explore the new world yeah yeah bravery and also you know it's personal responsibility i i talk - -65 -00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:18,560 -about this i do the austin bitcoin design club in austin with with saw hill and um every time i like - -66 -00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:26,040 -introduce the meetup it's just like bitcoin is something we do it's on us so you know if you're on a - -67 -00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:33,100 -shit coin a vc is paid for nice ux if you want nice ux and bitcoin you could take responsibility - -68 -00:07:33,100 --> 00:07:38,140 -on yourself to either make it yourself or just give really good feedback to the people who are building - -69 -00:07:38,140 --> 00:07:46,480 -and so you know i think nostr you're very much more obviously yeah it's like it's the nostr will - -70 -00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:56,140 -only be what diehards you know build it to be but i think this will also like already nostr clients - -71 -00:07:56,140 --> 00:08:00,100 -are way better than they used to be oh wow we're getting rock pulled all the time now it really - -72 -00:08:00,100 --> 00:08:09,500 -starts to rain we'll have to a canopy somewhere hop hop in somewhere should we should we slowly make - -73 -00:08:09,500 --> 00:08:19,380 -our way to somewhere where we won't get completely wet so is that a hospital we can get we can go up - -74 -00:08:19,380 --> 00:08:25,820 -there you could use a it's a it's a hospice or maybe we'll find a tree that that holds the water - -75 -00:08:25,820 --> 00:08:37,060 -better we'll see we'll figure it out the analogy i always use is uh somebody could give you a really - -76 -00:08:37,060 --> 00:08:44,700 -good exercise program they could even drive you to the gym but if you don't do the the lat pulldowns - -77 -00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:50,620 -using your own muscles you're not gonna you're not gonna gain strength so if the problem was that - -78 -00:08:50,620 --> 00:08:57,680 -somebody else is making the apps for you and they had bad a bad teleology they had bad ends in mind for - -79 -00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:06,860 -you uh it's not gonna be fixed necessarily by somebody else oh boy no that's really bad - -80 -00:09:06,860 --> 00:09:19,100 -where do you want to go i don't know is there can we sit just back at the restaurant - -81 -00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:25,280 -give me a second to think about it - -82 -00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:30,040 -oh wait wait under there under there there is a - -83 -00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,120 -i might have to stand - -84 -00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:38,540 -there we go that's better already there was like a 10 second shower - -85 -00:09:38,540 --> 00:09:44,620 -you and pablo haven't been rained out yet - -86 -00:09:44,620 --> 00:09:47,540 -nope not yet - -87 -00:09:47,540 --> 00:09:50,200 -i feel like it's been raining like - -88 -00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,100 -awesome it's the first - -89 -00:09:53,100 --> 00:10:06,820 -yeah let's go there let's just stand there yeah out there that's good okay - -90 -00:10:06,820 --> 00:10:12,620 -yeah i mean i keep bringing it back to responsibility a lot as well - -91 -00:10:12,620 --> 00:10:18,460 -in i mean freedom requires responsibility in the sense that no one can - -92 -00:10:18,460 --> 00:10:23,940 -completely handhold you through being free like that's the - -93 -00:10:23,940 --> 00:10:29,160 -the the other side of the freedom coin is responsibility itself - -94 -00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,040 -so oh that really hurt oh my lord - -95 -00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,140 -all right we're gonna make it - -96 -00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:38,380 -let's stay here for a little while - -97 -00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:46,220 -but yeah you were saying that you have to do the workout yourself and i i always i always break it down to the essentials it's like i mean - -98 -00:10:46,220 --> 00:10:49,660 -again we landed on all those memes in the bitcoin world with - -99 -00:10:49,660 --> 00:10:53,300 -not your keys not your coins which means if you're not in control of the private keys - -100 -00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:58,460 -it's actually not your money and if push comes to shove - -101 -00:10:58,460 --> 00:11:02,420 -then you'll feel that like someone else will take your money period - -102 -00:11:02,420 --> 00:11:05,920 -right and i feel like you can get a lot of the upside - -103 -00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,660 -of bitcoin like sailor right you can get a lot of the upside of bitcoin - -104 -00:11:10,660 --> 00:11:12,340 -without holding your own keys yeah - -105 -00:11:12,340 --> 00:11:17,140 -it works until it doesn't but it works still doesn't and also to get - -106 -00:11:17,140 --> 00:11:21,560 -the whole upside you have to take personal responsibility - -107 -00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:27,340 -and i think on the nostril side for example it relates a lot to - -108 -00:11:27,340 --> 00:11:30,100 -to kind of expressiveness in some sense - -109 -00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:37,620 -where it's like if you want to it's i always try to compare it to - -110 -00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:41,780 -i mean in in my mind we're talking about - -111 -00:11:41,780 --> 00:11:48,540 -freedom of speech and freedom of assembly and those kind of things the freedoms that we cherish - -112 -00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:55,220 -in meat space um where actually in meat space you you can prevent someone - -113 -00:11:55,220 --> 00:12:03,300 -like just by using sheer force to go somewhere somewhere like you can lock someone in a box and - -114 -00:12:03,300 --> 00:12:09,780 -so on or you can you know like uh shoot a grenade at an existing assembly and so on and so so the - -115 -00:12:09,780 --> 00:12:14,740 -freedom has to be granted politically in some sense like if there is a political structure if there - -116 -00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:20,580 -is other people around they can mess with your freedom of assembly in meat space they can also mess - -117 -00:12:20,580 --> 00:12:25,940 -with your freedom of speech and those kind of things yeah i never loved the public square analogy like - -118 -00:12:25,940 --> 00:12:31,780 -that does not seem like this perfect i used to live near union square and there would always be these - -119 -00:12:31,780 --> 00:12:37,860 -random protests and people giving speeches and stuff like that that was not the that's not the ideal of - -120 -00:12:37,860 --> 00:12:47,060 -human speech oh i agree i agree i agree but but it's it's the way i see it with um like now moving to - -121 -00:12:47,060 --> 00:12:54,340 -cyberspace it's cash in meat space cash gives you freedom of transactions in in that sense and it is - -122 -00:12:54,340 --> 00:13:02,660 -absolutely necessary for a society to work like you if you would need to know everything about absolutely - -123 -00:13:02,660 --> 00:13:09,780 -everyone you make economic transactions with then the society can scale like i'm convinced that society - -124 -00:13:09,780 --> 00:13:16,420 -without cash can scale meaningfully basically you need just like you need free speech to figure things - -125 -00:13:16,420 --> 00:13:23,780 -out and to figure out how to course correct society you need the free flow of money to to figure - -126 -00:13:23,780 --> 00:13:30,500 -certain things out and so on and um to actually have meaningful price signals emerge and and so on - -127 -00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:38,500 -and so forth like it's it plays a big part in distributed cognition in in cyberspace up until very recently i feel - -128 -00:13:38,500 --> 00:13:46,260 -like we had no way of guaranteeing those freedoms like you you uh in in the sense of like we had no - -129 -00:13:46,260 --> 00:13:52,820 -cash in cyberspace pre-bitcoin it just didn't exist at all and and in terms of freedom of assembly i i - -130 -00:13:52,820 --> 00:14:01,460 -think we we were able to do certain things now it's just i feel like it's it's it's it's going to be - -131 -00:14:01,460 --> 00:14:06,340 -easier and it's going to be more streamlined going forward where you just want to you know like even - -132 -00:14:06,340 --> 00:14:11,940 -temporarily open up a speaker's corner and invite people in uh and have something to say then you can't - -133 -00:14:11,940 --> 00:14:16,740 -just do that and it's not politically but cryptographically enforced i do think we lost - -134 -00:14:16,740 --> 00:14:22,820 -something the early internet people made their own websites and so there was like obviously there - -135 -00:14:22,820 --> 00:14:29,780 -weren't that many of them maybe in the millions but people were self-expressing to like a certain - -136 -00:14:29,780 --> 00:14:37,780 -extent and understand they were the publisher and then these platforms came along that did so much of - -137 -00:14:37,780 --> 00:14:44,740 -the work for you and even people like myself i probably published a lot more on twitter than - -138 -00:14:44,740 --> 00:14:50,020 -on my personal website i still even know how to make a personal website so i feel like we we actually - -139 -00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:57,060 -never lost the ability to self-publish now the the net the distribution and the network effects of - -140 -00:14:57,060 --> 00:15:01,700 -these social networks that's something we didn't have early on but at least the ability to self-publish we - -141 -00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:11,460 -really never lost we just were too lazy to keep at it or the i guess the rewards were somewhat minimal - -142 -00:15:11,460 --> 00:15:18,340 -yeah yeah yeah i guess the cost benefits didn't make sense you self-published yeah right yeah your - -143 -00:15:18,340 --> 00:15:27,220 -your your blog posts your when you counted to the number 21 right yeah you self-published and you found - -144 -00:15:27,220 --> 00:15:32,740 -distribution for that yeah but my main distribution channel was twitter i guess like i i don't think - -145 -00:15:32,740 --> 00:15:41,540 -anyone would have stumbled upon my stuff without already an existing twitter kind of space and by - -146 -00:15:41,540 --> 00:15:44,340 -that i don't mean twitter spaces i mean just uh - -147 -00:15:48,580 --> 00:15:56,340 -i had something that i could plug in to and it was just the existing bitcoin twitter community which i was - -148 -00:15:56,340 --> 00:16:01,860 -like deeply embedded in and i i had a very very small following in the beginning like when i was - -149 -00:16:01,860 --> 00:16:06,660 -even like when i started writing already but there was still like i immediately had a couple hundred - -150 -00:16:06,660 --> 00:16:11,700 -people that would read whatever anyone writes about bitcoin period because that's like back in the day - -151 -00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:17,780 -that was like maybe you know like no one wrote about bitcoin basically and so i i think i think that's - -152 -00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:23,620 -what the early internet there in my mind the early internet lacked it it it desperately lacked identity - -153 -00:16:23,620 --> 00:16:28,340 -and they lacked distribution and i think that's what you get now for free and i hope that we can - -154 -00:16:28,340 --> 00:16:35,700 -take all the good parts of the old internet so to speak and revive them in in in some sense of - -155 -00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:41,060 -re-explore them i think it's still very under explored and it relates to to the expression that i i - -156 -00:16:41,060 --> 00:16:47,060 -wanted to bring up it's like your your self-expression online is so limited in some sense because you are - -157 -00:16:47,060 --> 00:16:51,540 -currently bound to all the platforms and it's just like you know like it has to be exactly this form - -158 -00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:55,780 -every every fucking page looks the same and so there's very few exceptions there's very few - -159 -00:16:55,780 --> 00:17:01,860 -platforms that allow any kind of meaningful personalization and those kind of things and so - -160 -00:17:01,860 --> 00:17:08,100 -i i i mean i kind of i hope that we can bring some of that back i still you know remember the days of - -161 -00:17:08,820 --> 00:17:13,620 -geocities and myspace and winem skins that's that's kind of the examples i always bring up because it - -162 -00:17:13,620 --> 00:17:20,500 -was just fucking cool to to have like it's yeah and i wonder how much we if if people have the tools right - -163 -00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:27,060 -now like it's always going to be a small percentage that are the creators like anybody can upload to - -164 -00:17:27,060 --> 00:17:33,140 -youtube how many people actually upload to youtube it's it's definitely going to be a small percentage - -165 -00:17:33,140 --> 00:17:40,500 -but the you you see a lot more creativity on youtube than you saw on the broad broadcast television yeah - -166 -00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:44,820 -yeah that's fair yeah i mean that's uh the the medium is very unconstrained in that sense you're not - -167 -00:17:44,820 --> 00:17:53,380 -bound to like 10 minutes outbites that the the uh the the actual transmission bandwidth so to speak - -168 -00:17:53,380 --> 00:18:00,260 -is not scarce anymore it's like you can you can upload like 20 hour long youtube videos every single - -169 -00:18:00,260 --> 00:18:05,940 -day and and if no one watches them no one watches them the the thing that's cars nowadays of course is - -170 -00:18:05,940 --> 00:18:12,420 -attention so so distribution and attention which is kind of you know like uh uh has its own problems - -171 -00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:17,380 -i mean i i worry about that with - -172 -00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:28,180 -no i go on x a lot for design inspo and to see other uh like technical people like what are people - -173 -00:18:28,180 --> 00:18:35,380 -what are people vibe coding today what are people um what are solo entrepreneurs like making 50k a month - -174 -00:18:35,380 --> 00:18:42,260 -with that i could have done and just in a weekend but they did it instead and so i i there's a lot - -175 -00:18:42,420 --> 00:18:48,740 -there's a lot there and i feel like a lot of times i spend a lot of my time on the internet gathering - -176 -00:18:49,540 --> 00:18:56,980 -and i'm even i try to make better tools for i mostly use obsidian to store knowledge that i think i'm - -177 -00:18:56,980 --> 00:19:05,860 -going to use later but i'm mostly just storing yeah and i really that attention thing like i'm really i - -178 -00:19:05,860 --> 00:19:12,980 -almost want to like and i'm always prompting ai's i also want to like prompt myself when i log into the - -179 -00:19:12,980 --> 00:19:20,100 -computer yeah like what are you going to try to get done because you're like i'm sitting down you know - -180 -00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:25,780 -so like it's bad for my body and you know i'm like i'm getting all this blue light you know i'm taking on - -181 -00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:32,900 -a lot of risks health wise and mental health wise to be at a computer so what am i going to try to get out of - -182 -00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:42,420 -it uh i almost i almost kind of wish i had like a in info calories like you've consumed 3000 info - -183 -00:19:42,420 --> 00:19:49,620 -calories so you should write an essay you need to burn off these info calories like build something - -184 -00:19:49,620 --> 00:19:56,020 -write something be creative i mean a lot of people like me who like to create these personal knowledge - -185 -00:19:56,020 --> 00:20:02,500 -systems it's just end up with just the personal it's just like it's just it's just end up with all - -186 -00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:09,860 -this data and they're not using it for anything uh so i think ultimately yeah wait ultimately i want - -187 -00:20:10,740 --> 00:20:16,420 -you're talking about that kind of brain off thing like there's there's this ux design book called don't - -188 -00:20:16,420 --> 00:20:19,700 -make me think so it's very much the ux - -189 -00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:26,260 -uh so i'm always wary when people say bitcoin needs better ux because what do you mean by that - -190 -00:20:26,260 --> 00:20:35,620 -because the normie ux developer has a business model in mind so they have it ends in mind they - -191 -00:20:35,620 --> 00:20:43,140 -know what they want the users of their app to be doing yeah so they have a plan for you - -192 -00:20:43,140 --> 00:20:50,180 -do you have what is your plan yeah and are you using maybe maybe that's kind of part of the problem - -193 -00:20:50,180 --> 00:20:56,500 -right like the whole don't make me think design philosophy and the whole principle you know maybe - -194 -00:20:56,500 --> 00:21:03,060 -we want to build things that actually makes people think yeah yeah i've been thinking about this in - -195 -00:21:03,060 --> 00:21:11,940 -terms of you know one of the problems we had with mutiny was we made a pretty easy ux like your first - -196 -00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:18,260 -receive yeah would actually open a lightning channel yeah we just kind of call it fees network - -197 -00:21:18,260 --> 00:21:24,500 -fees or something like that right well a lightning channel can close and that can cost you money too - -198 -00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:28,660 -yeah and so we made it so easy to end up with a lightning channel that a lot of people ended up - -199 -00:21:28,660 --> 00:21:34,260 -with lightning channels that didn't know what that was yeah so they didn't know what they had signed up - -200 -00:21:34,260 --> 00:21:40,740 -for um and i'm sure obviously i'm sure there's a million examples in the normie world of like we've - -201 -00:21:40,740 --> 00:21:45,460 -done things that we didn't really know the implications of you know people are always - -202 -00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:53,060 -scandalized finding out what their personal data is used for so yeah that i i'm kind of thinking even - -203 -00:21:53,060 --> 00:21:58,260 -in terms of bitcoin ux like i think the next if i made something like mutiny again i would want to make - -204 -00:21:58,260 --> 00:22:01,540 -the part where you end up with a lightning channel if i decide that that's what you want - -205 -00:22:01,540 --> 00:22:13,860 -i decide to offer that as an option i'd want to make that weird like jarring somehow so that you - -206 -00:22:13,860 --> 00:22:20,340 -don't flow through it you know we we there are a lot of ux patterns that we're used to like if i keep - -207 -00:22:20,340 --> 00:22:26,500 -on pushing the button on the bottom right of the screen and it's not red i think it'll let me go on - -208 -00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:34,500 -with my day yeah and and so yeah i i want to like think more about like user interfaces that that um - -209 -00:22:35,780 --> 00:22:43,140 -jar people because they uh i think this is something that they should be mindful - -210 -00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:50,100 -during i think games some games are great at that where you just like you you uh especially some of - -211 -00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:56,180 -the older games where like it's actually mistakes are actually costly and you actually die and you have to - -212 -00:22:56,180 --> 00:23:00,980 -start from scratch again and replay the last 20 minutes right those kind of things where where - -213 -00:23:00,980 --> 00:23:07,060 -mistakes are actually costly you know that'd be great yeah like uh you know what's what's the one - -214 -00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:13,860 -you know you're scrolling or eula and it makes you scroll all the way to the bottom before you can - -215 -00:23:13,860 --> 00:23:19,700 -click the okay button you like time how fast they scroll and if they scroll faster than humans can read - -216 -00:23:19,700 --> 00:23:27,140 -you take them back to the total start of the flow just like you you lost the life better not mess up - -217 -00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:34,820 -yeah forcing the user to be careful i mean again like all this is yeah me kind of trying to decide - -218 -00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:40,180 -what the user should accomplish and how the user should be i think ultimately the goal for software - -219 -00:23:40,180 --> 00:23:46,580 -i mean you know the early you know some of the earliest software distribution is is you'd print a - -220 -00:23:46,580 --> 00:23:53,620 -magazine that had a basic program in it and be like one or two pages and so a kid would sit there - -221 -00:23:53,620 --> 00:24:01,860 -and patiently type in a program and now they would have some very minimal game and then they could just - -222 -00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:07,700 -start modifying it and that's you know i listened to like software developer podcasts and that's - -223 -00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:14,420 -very common either they were like hacking their uh texas instrument calculator or they were like you - -224 -00:24:14,420 --> 00:24:21,620 -yeah writing like basic um you know at least the old timers and so the idea that you that was like - -225 -00:24:21,620 --> 00:24:29,860 -what personal computing was originally there was very little distributed software this was a platform - -226 -00:24:29,860 --> 00:24:40,820 -for you to write programs into and i i if i think i think ai could really um potentially unlock that for - -227 -00:24:40,820 --> 00:24:46,180 -people where if you sat down at the computer and you knew what you wanted to do you actually thought - -228 -00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:54,500 -about what am i trying to accomplish you might be able to prompt an ai to build that tool for you to - -229 -00:24:54,500 --> 00:25:02,580 -do exactly what you wanted and so now you define the teleology you define the purpose of this tool and so - -230 -00:25:02,580 --> 00:25:08,660 -you can keep it aligned to what you want and you can't it's very hard to rug pull you wrote it yourself - -231 -00:25:08,660 --> 00:25:13,380 -you have the code right there you're running it on your own data and it's a total reversal of how - -232 -00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:21,380 -most of us use computers right now but i think we're like weirdly incredibly close to that being - -233 -00:25:21,380 --> 00:25:27,540 -yeah i agree i mean i you you showed me just last week like how far along all the vibe coding stuff - -234 -00:25:27,540 --> 00:25:34,980 -is and and i i really feel like putting cursor ai into autopilot really changed my mind on a lot of - -235 -00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:40,260 -those things because i was actually able to produce something meaning meaningful in like 20 minutes - -236 -00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:45,780 -and something that i you know always wanted to have built for the last 10 months or so and no one ever - -237 -00:25:45,780 --> 00:25:52,740 -sat down and built it and now i can just prompt it myself like into existence but i think it's you you - -238 -00:25:52,740 --> 00:26:01,620 -you actually have to know the hard part now it seems to me is to actually figure out what you want - -239 -00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:09,940 -yeah and also kind of collectively speaking so so to speak it's like what do we actually want - -240 -00:26:11,540 --> 00:26:17,700 -as a like how should the next iteration of the internet look like what what do we want to get out - -241 -00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:24,180 -of nostr how should you know the bitcoin wallets of the future actually operate and look like like how - -242 -00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:33,060 -easy should things be how and again like to to towards the the the kind of uh the reason why - -243 -00:26:33,060 --> 00:26:37,540 -we're standing here and talking to each other is like there are no perfect solutions so you have to - -244 -00:26:37,540 --> 00:26:43,700 -find the right trade-offs you have to be okay with people shooting themselves in the foot for example - -245 -00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:49,220 -it's like either you babysit people like almost completely or they are powerful enough - -246 -00:26:50,020 --> 00:26:54,340 -to shoot themselves in the foot and also like shoot others in the foot potentially like - -247 -00:26:54,340 --> 00:26:58,980 -depending on what we're talking about no but it's an unsolvable problem it's like with with like for - -248 -00:26:58,980 --> 00:27:08,820 -example um the it came up today with like policing content on nostr and those kind of things and it's - -249 -00:27:08,820 --> 00:27:14,820 -like where do you draw the line who can do the policing and what is kind of okay content and what - -250 -00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:20,660 -isn't it it it largely depends on your worldview what is okay and what isn't and also where do you - -251 -00:27:20,660 --> 00:27:26,180 -where do you draw the line when it comes to policing like do you police all text content all image content - -252 -00:27:26,180 --> 00:27:32,820 -all video content all audio content do you police do you police the namespace itself you know i mean - -253 -00:27:32,820 --> 00:27:39,540 -there's plenty of offensive twitter handles for example right which i mean you've been talking uh i - -254 -00:27:39,540 --> 00:27:44,340 -listened to this podcast uh and you've been talking a lot about like there is no global - -255 -00:27:46,180 --> 00:27:53,620 -but that's even there is no global is kind of a a globalist it's an absolutist it's an absolutist - -256 -00:27:53,620 --> 00:28:02,580 -it's well it's like um i mean think about that policing like i i think i find nostr is the best i want - -257 -00:28:02,580 --> 00:28:09,220 -to start using nostr for instance for like personal knowledge management tools right yeah so that's - -258 -00:28:09,220 --> 00:28:15,220 -obviously something i'm very interested in i could spin up a relay i could start blasting events to it - -259 -00:28:15,220 --> 00:28:20,660 -storing things that i find interesting storing my notes on there i have a blossom server store my memes - -260 -00:28:20,660 --> 00:28:28,820 -and media and things like that on there that's solving something for me and it's not i'm not i'm not - -261 -00:28:28,820 --> 00:28:37,220 -me and by not intending it to be global it can be global enough for me it can i can make it highly - -262 -00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:42,260 -available yeah yeah yeah no but that's not what we mean i know it's but like i think something's - -263 -00:28:42,260 --> 00:28:47,140 -there's something similar when you start to try to start thinking about like content policing very - -264 -00:28:47,140 --> 00:28:53,220 -subjectively oh my god it it doesn't uh it doesn't only solve the problem for you it solves the problem - -265 -00:28:53,220 --> 00:29:00,660 -for you and future you and that's a big that's a big thing because you're actually like everyone who - -266 -00:29:00,660 --> 00:29:04,500 -ever wrote code knows like you're not one person you're two people you're there's you and there's like - -267 -00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:08,180 -the guy who wrote the code two weeks ago and you have no idea what you did and how it works and - -268 -00:29:08,180 --> 00:29:14,020 -like and good luck figuring it out it's a different guy and so that's what i what i like i i jumped - -269 -00:29:14,020 --> 00:29:19,780 -through like 15 different kind of note-taking and knowledge systems already and the the they they - -270 -00:29:19,780 --> 00:29:24,660 -all worked for me at the time but they never worked for future me and and the reason why i like - -271 -00:29:24,660 --> 00:29:28,500 -nostril so much is because it is is future proof just like bitcoin is future proof i know bitcoin will - -272 -00:29:28,500 --> 00:29:34,180 -be there for me period right like it will be there for future me and so so by building that in a in a - -273 -00:29:34,740 --> 00:29:40,820 -like local first way that it it works for you on your local relay for your machine but that also means - -274 -00:29:40,820 --> 00:29:46,740 -it works for your machines and for like whatever will come next like you'll be able to export the - -275 -00:29:46,740 --> 00:29:51,220 -data and you'll be able to have it interoperable and those kind of things right like one of the things - -276 -00:29:51,220 --> 00:29:59,940 -that nostril as it just the network explores the possibility space has iterated on amazingly is - -277 -00:29:59,940 --> 00:30:06,500 -the relay technology so yeah it's more efficient people are making these relays to handle you know - -278 -00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:14,740 -thousands of users with millions of notes and so i love i always love that in technology when i could - -279 -00:30:14,740 --> 00:30:21,140 -take a something off the shelf that has just been hardened by incredible amounts of like sqlite - -280 -00:30:21,140 --> 00:30:27,780 -it's just been hardened by abuse over the years and i could just use it in the happiest of happy - -281 -00:30:27,780 --> 00:30:35,860 -paths for a solo user i love i love how i i think that's another reason why i'm bullish on this like - -282 -00:30:35,860 --> 00:30:43,780 -solo prompted software for solo use is that you your software doesn't have to be nearly as complex when - -283 -00:30:43,780 --> 00:30:49,300 -it's trying to serve i would say very specific use i i wouldn't say that's necessarily necessarily so - -284 -00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:55,300 -let's try to sit down again because my my my foot is swelling and i there's only so much pain i can - -285 -00:30:55,300 --> 00:31:02,660 -take it's like you know i i i only run one lightning no it's not like three anymore because there's only - -286 -00:31:02,660 --> 00:31:10,980 -so much pain i can take no but i think we'll have this the way i see it evolving now i mean again like - -287 -00:31:10,980 --> 00:31:16,500 -we have the you know kitchen sink uh nostril clients like amethyst that try to do everything and - -288 -00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:22,660 -it's on it that's perfectly fine as well like don't get me wrong i'm a fan but i i still think - -289 -00:31:22,660 --> 00:31:30,100 -we'll have very specialized tools just like in a unix world where like there's one tool and it has - -290 -00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:37,620 -existed for like 25 years and it does one thing and it does it better than any other tool and so you - -291 -00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:44,500 -just use that i i do that already on the nostril site for example to update my metadata and so on - -292 -00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:51,700 -um i'll go to metadata to the metadata client then i just set all the fields and do all the things - -293 -00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:59,060 -i don't use a regular client i love that yeah yeah the smaller and paulo was talking about this - -294 -00:31:59,060 --> 00:32:08,260 -sec you know when we think of nostril uh proposals when the more atomic they are you know the much - -295 -00:32:08,260 --> 00:32:16,020 -more tractable and in in the more uh composable they end up being i know you're a big like files maxi - -296 -00:32:16,020 --> 00:32:23,380 -yeah so i think of like the files abstraction has lasted so long i i think it you know in some - -297 -00:32:23,380 --> 00:32:30,340 -sense it underserves the modern world kids these days don't know what files are anymore no no they - -298 -00:32:30,340 --> 00:32:35,940 -don't the tick tock generation has no idea but but like meanwhile like every you know the web is all - -299 -00:32:35,940 --> 00:32:44,980 -about apis um and so you have bespoke weird data formats or probably several per company and then you - -300 -00:32:44,980 --> 00:32:53,300 -communicate if you're lucky you get to communicate with it with an api and so the yeah i'm so hopeful - -301 -00:32:53,300 --> 00:33:00,180 -that in nostril can slowly just be like a bit of a type system like here is a standardized way - -302 -00:33:00,980 --> 00:33:08,500 -um to publish something there's so so so much upside to that and it's a chicken and egg thing - -303 -00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:13,780 -like you know a lot more people will find nostril useful if there's a lot of stuff on it and a lot - -304 -00:33:13,780 --> 00:33:19,620 -more you know there'll be a lot more stuff on it if a lot of people are using it but i'm i'm very - -305 -00:33:19,620 --> 00:33:25,540 -i i you know i'm old enough that i've been through like several cycles with you know i've i've been - -306 -00:33:25,540 --> 00:33:32,660 -rug pulled by multiple note-taking solutions uh like you know amazon just shut off the ability or - -307 -00:33:32,660 --> 00:33:39,700 -i think they're going to the shut off the ability to download the uh file version of a oh the cable - -308 -00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:47,460 -so you can't jailbreak yeah uh you can't strip the drm yeah you can't you can't use the thing that - -309 -00:33:47,460 --> 00:33:54,820 -you theoretically possess as you wish to use it that's that's what it means and i uh there's a - -310 -00:33:54,820 --> 00:34:02,420 -i have readwise yeah which can amazon doesn't make an api for my book highlights - -311 -00:34:02,420 --> 00:34:12,660 -so but readwise has a browser extension and it loads up a website on amazon that is a list of my - -312 -00:34:12,660 --> 00:34:19,300 -highlights it scrapes them and turns them into a their own version of highlights a version of - -313 -00:34:19,300 --> 00:34:25,380 -highlights and then i can access the api so i feel like i'm like exfiltrate i feel like i'm like a - -314 -00:34:25,380 --> 00:34:32,500 -super hacker trying to get out my own data and i just painstakingly generated over years and years - -315 -00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:36,340 -and years and years that's kind of that's why i mentioned the digital gulags you know like you - -316 -00:34:36,340 --> 00:34:43,060 -are oh yes you're you're total an iphone user i'm i mean so many nested digital gulags - -317 -00:34:44,820 --> 00:34:51,940 -gulag within gulags the russian nested dolls of gulags you're in the center yeah it's weird - -318 -00:34:51,940 --> 00:34:56,420 -readwise is great by the way in in the the way it it's it's a really good reader it's a really - -319 -00:34:56,420 --> 00:35:02,660 -good reader app like it does highlights really well uh hint hint pablo fix highlighter and it it - -320 -00:35:02,660 --> 00:35:07,300 -does the text to speech really well and it does also does this cool something i wanted to make - -321 -00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:13,220 -myself is like a spaced repetition for my highlights yeah oh i want again talking about how do i actually - -322 -00:35:13,220 --> 00:35:19,540 -make value out of all these things i'm collecting you know it also it integrates nicely with with uh it - -323 -00:35:19,540 --> 00:35:23,940 -it has auto summarization and this ghost reader the like gpt system that you can - -324 -00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:29,620 -ask questions on your stuff and also on the stuff you read and so but as great as all that is that - -325 -00:35:29,620 --> 00:35:34,980 -should have been like two prompts probably two different apps that i prompted yeah that should - -326 -00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:39,220 -have been you know if i had my highlights as my own notes i can make the space repetition - -327 -00:35:39,220 --> 00:35:46,740 -yeah like a prompt and yeah that's uh so like i'm like i and i feel like i just rolled the dice - -328 -00:35:46,740 --> 00:35:53,780 -and i happen to end up with readwise yeah yeah i'm lucky that somebody did it right yeah and they - -329 -00:35:53,780 --> 00:36:01,380 -have an api i'm lucky but for most things in my life i i don't i don't i'm there i'm getting snake - -330 -00:36:01,380 --> 00:36:08,260 -eyes but but they still have the same problem like everyone else because they are in charge they have - -331 -00:36:08,260 --> 00:36:13,620 -to host all the data they need to be in business they can go out of business and if they go out of - -332 -00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:18,820 -business everything is gone it does and so that's it's just that i can't it's not it's not tenable - -333 -00:36:18,820 --> 00:36:24,100 -especially the older i get yeah more of these cycles i've been through yeah the more more times - -334 -00:36:24,100 --> 00:36:30,100 -i've been rugged by the exactly exactly exactly it's like the the rug pulls must continue until - -335 -00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:35,940 -morale improves yeah but that's why i always bring up the you know crazy computer science professors that - -336 -00:36:35,940 --> 00:36:42,180 -have the same static html page for the last 35 years that runs on a toaster somewhere because they they - -337 -00:36:42,180 --> 00:36:47,940 -it's like one html file it's self-contained it never goes down you can put it somewhere else and - -338 -00:36:47,940 --> 00:36:52,740 -it's it's there again like they know what they're doing uh like just by by experience and understanding - -339 -00:36:52,740 --> 00:36:58,900 -this stuff and and so on and and i feel like the that that's why i became a file maxi like my whole - -340 -00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:05,140 -compute setup is built around the file systems and i just synchronize everything using sync thing - -341 -00:37:05,140 --> 00:37:09,860 -and like my books and my audio books and my music and absolutely everything like my my downloads my memes - -342 -00:37:09,860 --> 00:37:16,660 -my photos everything is synced with my swarm and i just have certain folders that are the root folders - -343 -00:37:16,660 --> 00:37:23,860 -for for like whatever like my my audio books that are and and i always have i have like a three-tiered - -344 -00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:29,060 -system i have the deep big archive that holds everything that's like terabytes of raid servers - -345 -00:37:29,060 --> 00:37:34,260 -and so on i have the working memory so to speak that's large enough to be on laptops and good phones and - -346 -00:37:34,260 --> 00:37:40,420 -then i have like the you know just mobile like where i drag and i'll drag and drop in like three - -347 -00:37:40,420 --> 00:37:45,540 -audio books that i'm gonna listen to for the next month or whatever and or the books i just want to - -348 -00:37:45,540 --> 00:37:49,380 -read that i have like the mobile folders and everything is set up that way it works beautifully because the - -349 -00:37:49,380 --> 00:37:57,060 -files are actually self-contained and i i try to use apps that um basically like my my audio book app - -350 -00:37:57,060 --> 00:38:03,700 -for example the audio book player that i use it will store every single note and bookmark that i - -351 -00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:09,540 -make in in separate files and it will have a position file like position dot that which means - -352 -00:38:10,180 --> 00:38:16,020 -like there's gonna be no conflict between the things and it just updates across the swarm and if - -353 -00:38:16,020 --> 00:38:20,340 -i use a different phone to continue to listen to the audiobook it's just everything is already there - -354 -00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:27,140 -it's very nostr style yeah would you do you even need to nostrify what would the upside be if this - -355 -00:38:27,140 --> 00:38:37,620 -was on nostr so what i would love to have is plug nostr into existing things like that already especially - -356 -00:38:37,620 --> 00:38:44,100 -for uh app configuration and those kind of things when i get a new phone i have to set up most of the - -357 -00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:49,620 -things from scratch i just want to log log in with my nostr identity basically and then it knows what to - -358 -00:38:49,620 --> 00:38:54,340 -do that's kind of it would be the best case i mean we we have this across you know like again like - -359 -00:38:54,340 --> 00:38:58,580 -if you if you're in the apple ecosystem you get a new iphone you log in and it's the same as the - -360 -00:38:58,580 --> 00:39:03,540 -old iphone just upgraded hardware if you're if you use a modern browser like you usually use browser - -361 -00:39:03,540 --> 00:39:07,620 -sync and so on and so all your extensions are synchronized all your bookmarks are synchronized - -362 -00:39:07,620 --> 00:39:14,820 -all those kind of things and and those are but those are all like they're their own siloed systems - -363 -00:39:14,820 --> 00:39:20,900 -and and and that's i think where where nostr can be very beneficial where it's like you can do the - -364 -00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:26,820 -same thing but in a non-siloed way i guess that's kind of how i feel with the the files a little bit - -365 -00:39:26,820 --> 00:39:36,740 -like they they somehow end up like i want to like kind of link things up a bit somehow make these cross - -366 -00:39:36,740 --> 00:39:46,580 -references between things like you know the audio book highlight i want that to be highlighted in the - -367 -00:39:46,580 --> 00:39:52,820 -kindle version and vice versa you know or i'd like to be able to make notes that like reference a - -368 -00:39:52,820 --> 00:39:59,780 -specific scene in a movie i feel like there's a lot of i feel like there's a lot of things that we - -369 -00:39:59,780 --> 00:40:06,260 -would have as personal knowledge tools if all of our things weren't built so siloed and drm'd and - -370 -00:40:06,260 --> 00:40:11,860 -stuff i feel like there's so much to explore there and maybe this is just me just loving - -371 -00:40:13,140 --> 00:40:19,780 -the idea of collecting data more than maybe i would actually use this very little but i think there is - -372 -00:40:19,780 --> 00:40:25,220 -an obvious need for that there's a reason why clips took off so massively for example both for podcasts - -373 -00:40:25,220 --> 00:40:31,460 -and also for just everything you know it's just all the platforms kind of had to build - -374 -00:40:32,100 --> 00:40:38,100 -clipping into their systems because the people they they wanted to they did this anyway you know - -375 -00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:47,140 -one thing about so in the olden days it was very common as a reader to keep a commonplace book you would - -376 -00:40:47,140 --> 00:40:51,940 -read a book and you'd have a book next to the book where you would write your thoughts on the book - -377 -00:40:51,940 --> 00:40:59,940 -as it happened um jonathan edwards has this like bible that's like think of a one page of the bible - -378 -00:40:59,940 --> 00:41:06,500 -as the top left corner so like one quarter of the page and then three blank pages yeah where he could - -379 -00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:12,900 -put notes so for every page of the bible he could write just tons and tons of notes and he also had an - -380 -00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:19,220 -indexing system for his like he had a notebook about like observations of nature and just like a - -381 -00:41:19,220 --> 00:41:25,620 -miscellaneous one and like a sermon notes so he had the kind of interlinking system but i just think - -382 -00:41:25,620 --> 00:41:30,340 -you know if if part of the problem you said what do we want to do what are we trying to get out of this - -383 -00:41:30,340 --> 00:41:40,980 -and i think with the personal knowledge stuff it's like i'm i'm taking in information to reflect on it on - -384 -00:41:40,980 --> 00:41:49,140 -how i can better act in the world and to better understand the world so even if i'm watching like - -385 -00:41:49,780 --> 00:41:58,500 -netflix slop with like lindsey lohan in it if i had a an important thing if i did some noticing and some - -386 -00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:08,020 -important uh insight i i want to pause it clip it like maybe voice prompt a very short essay about - -387 -00:42:08,020 --> 00:42:11,620 -or something and then i could resume you know like sometimes like if you're watching something - -388 -00:42:11,620 --> 00:42:15,940 -with a friend or something like maybe pause the movie like oh yeah let me explain this part to you - -389 -00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:22,340 -um i do that by the way i do that i have like uh my current workflow it evolved over the last 10 - -390 -00:42:22,340 --> 00:42:29,380 -years massively but but again coming back to the note taking knowledge graph apps and so on so i use - -391 -00:42:29,380 --> 00:42:34,260 -standard notes a lot i i use it so much that it has trouble syncing because i have so much stuff in - -392 -00:42:34,260 --> 00:42:40,260 -there um so um it works reasonably well still but i'll i think i'll have to file a bug report soon - -393 -00:42:41,380 --> 00:42:50,020 -but i i start my day with a blank notes of the day note every day no matter what and it's just like a - -394 -00:42:50,020 --> 00:42:56,020 -bullet point list that is check box formed so it i'll put some to do's there i'll put random thoughts - -395 -00:42:56,020 --> 00:43:01,700 -there and i i have ways to annotate it and so on and i have ways to categorize it and and and but if i - -396 -00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:07,700 -have an inside reading something i'll note it down and i always have some device with me that's linked - -397 -00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:12,580 -up to standard notes to to this file and that's also why i like standard notes because you can you - -398 -00:43:12,580 --> 00:43:17,860 -can automatically like it syncs to the file system like every single note is like a you know whatever - -399 -00:43:17,860 --> 00:43:23,780 -markdown file and so on but uh so i'm not trapped in standard notes forever i know that - -400 -00:43:23,780 --> 00:43:31,460 -i'm already not but but it's it's it's so so i have the same need and i'll do this also when i - -401 -00:43:31,460 --> 00:43:35,860 -watch the movie you know i'll i'll note the name of the movie and i'll i'll note the inside and maybe - -402 -00:43:35,860 --> 00:43:42,500 -later i'll come back to it and make something out of it like you know wait and it's maybe this is such - -403 -00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:48,660 -a small quality life improvement but like why yeah why don't my digital devices know i'm watching this - -404 -00:43:48,660 --> 00:43:55,460 -movie i'm at this spot in the movie here's a frame grab from it and so what i like to take a quick - -405 -00:43:55,460 --> 00:44:02,820 -note i have the context of like whatever else i was doing packaged along and i feel like that should - -406 -00:44:02,820 --> 00:44:10,900 -be just so easy to do now and you you alluded to it when you were talking about um you know like the - -407 -00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:15,460 -old mac systems where everything kind of looked the same everything was integrated and so on - -408 -00:44:15,460 --> 00:44:21,220 -and so so what what you are describing i'm already doing but i'm doing i'm doing lots of things - -409 -00:44:21,220 --> 00:44:29,220 -manually like i posted a bunch of movie screens i just i just use vlc or whatever to go exactly to - -410 -00:44:29,220 --> 00:44:35,060 -where i was like i have my ways to do this rather quickly and then i'll just i'll just i'll just put it - -411 -00:44:35,060 --> 00:44:41,140 -in my file system and then i'll take my phone or whatever and it syncs you know with my with my - -412 -00:44:41,140 --> 00:44:46,660 -folder where i put my things and i'll post it out on noster but but we could do this in a way more - -413 -00:44:46,660 --> 00:44:51,940 -beautiful way where you just have a and always on working space you know like a very intelligent - -414 -00:44:51,940 --> 00:44:57,780 -dropbox where you can just put stuff in and and just if you want blast it out and that was kind of - -415 -00:44:57,780 --> 00:45:02,900 -the idea for highlighter as well for example like you know like it's and again coming back to readwise - -416 -00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:11,060 -reader you you have potentially so much stuff in there that's that's not it's not necessarily like - -417 -00:45:11,060 --> 00:45:16,180 -super private like highlights are not necessarily super private margin notes might be and so on but - -418 -00:45:16,180 --> 00:45:20,580 -if you want to publish it you could decide to publish it it might be useful to other people - -419 -00:45:20,580 --> 00:45:24,740 -and then you have suddenly uh uh you know like what i call swarm highlights where you can just - -420 -00:45:24,740 --> 00:45:33,460 -what does my my network think about this passage of the book what are the margin notes that people - -421 -00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:38,580 -publish those kind of things one one of the things that i i one of the apps i've always wanted to make - -422 -00:45:38,580 --> 00:45:46,660 -is called family bible and you make a tiny little social network with your family centered around the - -423 -00:45:46,660 --> 00:45:53,300 -bible so my family is all over the country and uh we all attend different churches so that means we're - -424 -00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:59,940 -having a different passage explained to us on any given sunday right i take a lot of notes at church - -425 -00:45:59,940 --> 00:46:05,460 -so i have and you know the pastor's always jumping around through verses so i have references a - -426 -00:46:05,460 --> 00:46:10,500 -commentary basically on tons of stuff and then all of us if we have a personal devotional time are - -427 -00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:16,020 -reading the bible separately and highlighting it separately and having thoughts about it and it's - -428 -00:46:16,020 --> 00:46:20,980 -not something you'd really want to publish broadly yeah but it's something you'd love to be able to - -429 -00:46:20,980 --> 00:46:26,900 -because it's a way of you'd love to share yeah and you're increasing serendipity among each other - -430 -00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:36,100 -yeah uh i i love that and it's like yeah because you know why do we do these social things ideal - -431 -00:46:36,660 --> 00:46:40,900 -ideally it's so that we can feel more present with each other when we're not physically present - -432 -00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:47,220 -you know if you if you go online and that makes you feel isolated and shitty - -433 -00:46:47,220 --> 00:46:55,700 -uh then something's wrong yeah and so but if you can go online and it like you spot a reminder of - -434 -00:46:55,700 --> 00:47:01,060 -why you should call that person or it makes you just you know remember them fondly or think of them - -435 -00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:08,020 -uh you know that's that's a win that's something that uh technology also another thing i thought - -436 -00:47:08,020 --> 00:47:14,500 -about earlier this is a bit of a tangent but i feel like you know you're talking about the manual process - -437 -00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:19,460 -you could already do this but it has a manual process i think one of the best indicators of when - -438 -00:47:19,460 --> 00:47:26,660 -we're using a computer well is that we're getting computers to do computer work for us yeah it's like of - -439 -00:47:26,660 --> 00:47:32,980 -all the things that it would be nice if a computer did it would be nice if it did some of my computer work - -440 -00:47:32,980 --> 00:47:40,180 -for me yeah because that is almost always a pure win i'm sure that there are trade-offs i'm sure but - -441 -00:47:40,180 --> 00:47:48,660 -uh if if something can be automated it should be automated basically yes yes and uh and ultimately - -442 -00:47:48,660 --> 00:47:56,660 -because ultimately the goal the end is not being on the computer yes i have an end in mind and if i can - -443 -00:47:56,660 --> 00:48:02,740 -get it done with less time on the computer that's just yes that's that's that's also i think that's - -444 -00:48:02,740 --> 00:48:08,900 -it's it's very interesting observing that in the in the wider noster culture basically there's lots - -445 -00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:14,260 -of people that are like trying to be outside as much as they can trying to make the apps and the - -446 -00:48:14,260 --> 00:48:22,580 -things that they build as like least addictive as they can be those kind of things um i i think - -447 -00:48:23,940 --> 00:48:28,980 -i think we've kind of lost the plot when it comes to technology or by we i mean like you know the - -448 -00:48:28,980 --> 00:48:33,940 -current iteration of silicon valley and and the the whole tech crowd where it's just like the name - -449 -00:48:33,940 --> 00:48:40,500 -of the game is making everyone as addicted as possible and it relates to the attention piece - -450 -00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:47,780 -that we talked about because if you have to you know use attention as your monetization proxy then - -451 -00:48:47,780 --> 00:48:54,100 -you need to maximize addiction to drive profits that's what you need to do so technology actually - -452 -00:48:54,900 --> 00:49:00,660 -doesn't serve us anymore like the the modern silicon valley technology most of the time doesn't serve - -453 -00:49:00,660 --> 00:49:06,340 -it's users it's it's the users are working for the platforms to maximize the profits and so on so - -454 -00:49:06,340 --> 00:49:12,820 -it's all kind of you know like lopsided but but um i i i i like where it's going with the with - -455 -00:49:12,820 --> 00:49:20,500 -the nostra crowd where it's you know like people um uh you know like actually touching grass and uh - -456 -00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:26,100 -being in the water and actually being outside that's also why i you know like i i wanted to - -457 -00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:31,220 -have these conversations not centered around screens and not sitting together and staring - -458 -00:49:31,220 --> 00:49:39,060 -into laptops and and sitting in in like a closed room like i i just i think we also to think about - -459 -00:49:39,060 --> 00:49:45,060 -things properly you have to be outside and like yeah find inspiration from nature and the other things - -460 -00:49:45,060 --> 00:49:54,580 -to figure out how we could how we could steer this into a more sensible also more human-centered - -461 -00:49:54,580 --> 00:49:56,900 -direction yeah i think we really go - -462 -00:49:59,220 --> 00:50:02,180 -astray when we're doing something that we have a hard time - -463 -00:50:02,820 --> 00:50:10,020 -analogizing to the real world like uh it's potentially a sign of but but there is also - -464 -00:50:10,020 --> 00:50:14,100 -there's also novel things that are kind of that we don't have in the real world and and you you - -465 -00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:19,220 -mentioned previously like you want to share it with your family for example the family bible idea - -466 -00:50:19,220 --> 00:50:25,140 -and so it's not necessarily public but it's also not like super private uh in it like not only for - -467 -00:50:25,140 --> 00:50:34,660 -you and and i think we like the whole internet evolved in that direction um where um like - -468 -00:50:35,860 --> 00:50:42,740 -group chats are the biggest thing on the internet basically right now i love group chats so so like i - -469 -00:50:42,740 --> 00:50:46,660 -don't know what the estimates are so i'm gonna pull a number out my ass but it's like 80 of the - -470 -00:50:46,660 --> 00:50:51,860 -the internet is like happening in group chats basically when compared to more open things like - -471 -00:50:51,860 --> 00:50:58,420 -you know twitter and and facebook public pages and so on so most people are hiding in like whatsapp - -472 -00:50:58,420 --> 00:51:03,540 -signal telegram private chats basically hiding quote unquote like they're not actually hiding it's just - -473 -00:51:03,540 --> 00:51:09,060 -like i want to share this but i only share with my i only want to share with my group of people - -474 -00:51:09,060 --> 00:51:14,500 -that's i think why why bitcoin twitter and now also nostor feels so nice because it's yes you're - -475 -00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:19,300 -publishing it globally but you also know it will only be seen by those people like no one else is - -476 -00:51:19,300 --> 00:51:25,540 -gonna care so it kind of is like a group chat a little bit it also isn't like for for for from - -477 -00:51:25,540 --> 00:51:31,220 -from a pure like technical privacy standpoint and so on but still like the the group chat issue is - -478 -00:51:31,220 --> 00:51:35,460 -always how private is a group chat if there's like more than five people in it you'll always have - -479 -00:51:35,460 --> 00:51:40,020 -a mole you know like someone is going to take a screenshot and just send it into a bigger group or - -480 -00:51:40,020 --> 00:51:44,980 -whatever so so so so you don't have any strong privacy assumptions in group chats in the first - -481 -00:51:44,980 --> 00:51:52,340 -place and so so so but we don't have that the reason why i bring this up is we we kind of have that - -482 -00:51:52,340 --> 00:51:56,980 -it's like if you're sitting at a bar and you're having a conversation or like right here we're sitting - -483 -00:51:56,980 --> 00:52:02,260 -in the park we're having a conversation we it it looks and feels as if we are alone but there might - -484 -00:52:02,260 --> 00:52:05,780 -be a guy like behind the bush listening to everything we say and in the bar the same thing - -485 -00:52:05,780 --> 00:52:15,140 -i'll join too but but in in a bar like that's why my my go-to joke for bitcoin twitter was always - -486 -00:52:15,140 --> 00:52:19,940 -like because people people got always so butthurt about like whatever drama and so on and they don't - -487 -00:52:19,940 --> 00:52:26,100 -realize that it's like okay this is it's not only like a meeting room or like a sports club where - -488 -00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:31,940 -people hang out and it's also a bar you know where it's also a playground like some people might be like - -489 -00:52:31,940 --> 00:52:37,620 -drunk right now you're arguing with them on twitter and getting upset and the guy might be out of his - -490 -00:52:37,620 --> 00:52:45,140 -mind high you know or he might be 14 like you don't know you know and and so so we don't i don't think we - -491 -00:52:45,140 --> 00:52:53,620 -have we have some things that we can compare with some meatspace things like again bars and and parks and - -492 -00:52:53,620 --> 00:52:59,780 -so on that we that where we can draw comparisons but it's still strictly novel and i think the main issue - -493 -00:52:59,780 --> 00:53:06,100 -with online discourse is that we unless you grew up on the internet we we lack good - -494 -00:53:07,540 --> 00:53:12,180 -instincts and heuristics of how to deal with people and let's just one one one more thing - -495 -00:53:12,180 --> 00:53:16,660 -then i'll stop the rant but there's people like jordan peterson who is completely butthurt about - -496 -00:53:16,660 --> 00:53:22,260 -online anonymity i think he's very misguided about this and and there's people that are better with - -497 -00:53:22,900 --> 00:53:28,740 -dealing with online trolls and toxicity for example like call it whatever you want but it's like - -498 -00:53:28,740 --> 00:53:34,660 -in real life we're really good with that because if the town drunk comes up to you and tells you - -499 -00:53:34,660 --> 00:53:41,060 -that you're an asshole or whatever or a liar you're you're not going to be upset it's the town drunk - -500 -00:53:41,620 --> 00:53:45,300 -the the difference with twitter is or with online environments is there might be a hundred town - -501 -00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:50,100 -drunks coming to you and just saying whatever outrageous stuff yeah i don't i don't quite know what - -502 -00:53:50,100 --> 00:53:57,540 -i think about the public timelines i i feel like something i've noticed about myself is that i'm way - -503 -00:53:57,540 --> 00:54:07,140 -better at loving people in the abstract than loving gg loving a person you know like um and so i think - -504 -00:54:07,140 --> 00:54:14,500 -there's something how do you mean that you'll have to explain it the concept of people i'd be much more - -505 -00:54:14,500 --> 00:54:22,260 -likely to do something for civilization rather than like if my brother asked me to go run an errand for - -506 -00:54:22,260 --> 00:54:29,540 -him i'd be like right like oh really okay interesting and i you know i i don't know if it's it there's - -507 -00:54:29,540 --> 00:54:35,940 -something about maybe it's just kind of this tech mindset that i've been in of kind of thinking of - -508 -00:54:35,940 --> 00:54:43,300 -people as kind of like just kind of the abstract people just the term people i i remember somebody - -509 -00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:49,940 -pointing this out about and you can you could hear it um when obama would say the word folks - -510 -00:54:51,540 --> 00:54:57,780 -you'd hear it in his speeches like he had he always had two terms for people there's like a big bucket of - -511 -00:54:57,780 --> 00:55:02,500 -undifferentiated people that i i may be able to pretend to care about but i don't necessarily really - -512 -00:55:02,500 --> 00:55:09,700 -care about and then there's like you know your wife your kids your family or somebody you know even if - -513 -00:55:09,700 --> 00:55:16,500 -they're a stranger that you have a actual personal moment with and you help them or you talk to them - -514 -00:55:16,980 --> 00:55:24,340 -or and those are two different things and i feel like when the group chat says small i'm dealing with - -515 -00:55:24,340 --> 00:55:34,260 -like i know these guys i'm talking to them specifically with their in mind that like uh we were talking - -516 -00:55:34,260 --> 00:55:40,100 -earlier uh before the pod about like theory of mind like i have a theory of mind how all these guys - -517 -00:55:40,100 --> 00:55:44,900 -are going to react i'm i'm trying to make all of them laugh or all of them think i'm racist or whatever - -518 -00:55:45,460 --> 00:55:50,260 -i'm trying to do in this group chat if it's small enough and when you get to a certain size - -519 -00:55:50,820 --> 00:55:57,860 -you're talking about your you have to compress it into an abstraction but but then also like it's very - -520 -00:55:57,860 --> 00:56:03,380 -uh you'll have high coherence in small groups and the coherence dissipates the larger the group gets - -521 -00:56:03,380 --> 00:56:10,900 -automatically uh so sort of stuff uh like like the the the the theory of mind that you have - -522 -00:56:11,460 --> 00:56:18,900 -of the group like the the the you don't have a literal group think anymore you can't like once - -523 -00:56:18,900 --> 00:56:25,220 -there's a couple hundred people have you seen that that that graph that shows like the liberals um - -524 -00:56:25,220 --> 00:56:34,980 -think more about like the plight of the like the remote person oh there's a it's really there's a - -525 -00:56:34,980 --> 00:56:40,820 -oh shoot i wish i could think of the proper nouns for this but but yeah so it's like basically the - -526 -00:56:40,820 --> 00:56:46,340 -conservative tendency is to think a lot more about your family and immediate friends and stuff like - -527 -00:56:46,340 --> 00:56:53,140 -that and you'll see it's you see it clustered in this chart right around the center people closest to - -528 -00:56:53,140 --> 00:56:59,140 -me are the people i think most about yeah and i care most about whereas the liberal - -529 -00:57:01,300 --> 00:57:08,900 -on this chart thinks the most and cares the most about like animal welfare yeah yeah in africa yeah - -530 -00:57:09,700 --> 00:57:16,420 -people far away from them i think that's kind of this idea and i think i personally just have actually - -531 -00:57:16,420 --> 00:57:23,860 -have that tendency okay so you you you care more about society or like the state of the internet - -532 -00:57:23,860 --> 00:57:29,860 -than abstract person rather than the person right next to me that actually okay interesting and so i - -533 -00:57:29,860 --> 00:57:37,860 -feel like that's something that i struggle with online of yeah the socializing online is um - -534 -00:57:37,860 --> 00:57:45,700 -kind of colored by that yeah yeah yeah i i still i mean a lot of the things that we we just went - -535 -00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:53,780 -through i think i feel like it's all related to web of trust but we don't have a good understanding yet - -536 -00:57:53,780 --> 00:58:01,220 -how a web of trust actually works in some sense because i mean some of the things that the people that - -537 -00:58:01,220 --> 00:58:06,260 -are working on this already ran into is like it's very hard to put it into one score for example it's - -538 -00:58:06,260 --> 00:58:12,740 -it's like it's like a it's like a it's multiple vectors basically you know it's like a it's because - -539 -00:58:12,740 --> 00:58:20,180 -lucky it's yeah yeah if we're lucky but it's like because it's also and i think pablo and i we talked - -540 -00:58:20,180 --> 00:58:29,140 -about this this this briefly but it's like it's you know like you have this uh i i keep i i always feel - -541 -00:58:29,140 --> 00:58:31,780 -bad when i repeat exactly the same things but i just i i - -542 -00:58:31,780 --> 00:58:41,620 -to make it through the rain and everything else but it's it's you are not one person and you're - -543 -00:58:41,620 --> 00:58:46,900 -kind of in in the middle of the overlap of multiple groups so your identity is not self-assigned first - -544 -00:58:46,900 --> 00:58:51,300 -and foremost it's like other people will tell you who you are that's why you also lose your identity - -545 -00:58:51,300 --> 00:58:54,980 -when you're in social isolation you go completely insane and everything else but it's like let's say - -546 -00:58:54,980 --> 00:59:00,900 -i'm a bitcoiner i'm also you know a skateboarder i'm also an austrian i'm also you know like a guy - -547 -00:59:00,900 --> 00:59:08,180 -who is on australia and so on and and so if i like i trust my group of bitcoin friends for example - -548 -00:59:08,740 --> 00:59:13,700 -with various things but especially on the bitcoin side or bitcoin adjacent things you know like i don't - -549 -00:59:13,700 --> 00:59:19,300 -trust them with on absolutely everything and that's just how it works that's how every web of trust - -550 -00:59:19,300 --> 00:59:25,380 -works and we don't have great ways to model this in in in cyberspace in meat space that becomes natural - -551 -00:59:25,380 --> 00:59:32,340 -it's like if you need help with i don't know like your gun you go to your gun nut friend you know - -552 -00:59:32,340 --> 00:59:37,140 -and you'll whatever he says what is wrong with your gun you'll trust him if you need help how to prepare - -553 -00:59:37,140 --> 00:59:42,260 -meat you'll go to your butcher or to whatever butcher friend or to your to your friend who is an awesome - -554 -00:59:42,260 --> 00:59:46,820 -cook or chef or whatever and so on if you need help with a computer and you need trustworthy input in - -555 -00:59:46,820 --> 00:59:53,380 -that department you'll go to someone who knows there like even if you disagree with him about like - -556 -00:59:53,380 --> 00:59:59,540 -almost everything else and so on and and so so that's i think it relates to the to the to the - -557 -00:59:59,540 --> 01:00:03,780 -group chat dynamic that's why for example you're you're and i'm sure that's true for everyone but - -558 -01:00:03,780 --> 01:00:09,620 -you're in multiple groups with the same people and it happens all the time and it's like we we're not - -559 -01:00:09,620 --> 01:00:14,180 -going to bring up sports or whatever in this group it's about this thing yeah this group is about this - -560 -01:00:14,180 --> 01:00:19,140 -thing with these people and there's a big overlap with with the people in it and so on yeah also you - -561 -01:00:19,140 --> 01:00:23,700 -said yeah you're not the same person with different people also you're not the same person over time - -562 -01:00:23,700 --> 01:00:32,740 -not at all i know that's also another like social insecurity of mine is tend to take the absolute - -563 -01:00:32,740 --> 01:00:40,740 -last the tail the tail last five minutes of interaction oh i think i i saw the hint of a frown - -564 -01:00:42,020 --> 01:00:46,660 -in the last five minutes this person clearly wants to write me out of their life they're just trying to - -565 -01:00:46,660 --> 01:00:52,660 -find a good opportunity to escape doesn't the bible uh talk about forgiveness uh yes well that you - -566 -01:00:52,660 --> 01:00:58,660 -know i i wrote a bunch of uh not nearly as successful as your writing but i wrote a bunch of essays on - -567 -01:00:58,660 --> 01:01:06,820 -trust and uh one of them was this idea of repeat games so you you could design a trust system where as - -568 -01:01:06,820 --> 01:01:13,220 -soon as somebody makes a mistake you just like write them off they're dead to you yeah it doesn't work - -569 -01:01:13,220 --> 01:01:20,340 -long but you there's not yeah you get the best if you have some yeah tit for tat that's actually the - -570 -01:01:20,340 --> 01:01:25,460 -best some a little bit of forgiveness yeah you're like hey i'm gonna assume that was a mistake yeah - -571 -01:01:25,460 --> 01:01:33,780 -um and and they actually i feel like they more capable like the bigger forgiveness budget that you can - -572 -01:01:33,780 --> 01:01:40,900 -muster yourself yeah you actually there's so much upside to it yeah uh no i think they ran actually like - -573 -01:01:40,900 --> 01:01:44,660 -they ran simulations and studies and all kinds of things on that and it's like turns out tit for - -574 -01:01:44,660 --> 01:01:49,620 -that tit for tat is actually the best strategy and for repeat interaction it's like it's it's literally - -575 -01:01:49,620 --> 01:01:55,140 -like what society has been saying all the time it's like three strikes and you're out basically if you - -576 -01:01:55,140 --> 01:02:00,980 -if you repeat the game with known participants and so on if you fool me three times then it's like - -577 -01:02:00,980 --> 01:02:05,140 -you're then you're off the table like there's it's going to be very hard to recover from that but but - -578 -01:02:05,140 --> 01:02:10,580 -just if you if you if you move to a new city for example it's like the best strategy is tit for that i'm - -579 -01:02:10,580 --> 01:02:16,580 -gonna trust you i'm gonna be open-minded and if you if you fuck me i'm gonna retaliate but then i'm - -580 -01:02:16,580 --> 01:02:21,380 -gonna be open-minded again basically i'm gonna be forgiving again this whole kind of a tangent but - -581 -01:02:21,380 --> 01:02:27,140 -the mission moving to new city i feel like something that we could maybe try to learn from nature is you - -582 -01:02:27,140 --> 01:02:35,300 -know it was much more common historically for people to be born in one town live in that town and die in - -583 -01:02:35,300 --> 01:02:42,340 -that town yeah and uh especially i think maybe before my generation but especially my generation - -584 -01:02:42,340 --> 01:02:48,420 -has moved all over the us and my family specifically we've come all moved away from where our parents - -585 -01:02:48,420 --> 01:02:54,020 -and i my brother's doing some genealogy i kind of have like a history of that like you know like - -586 -01:02:54,820 --> 01:02:58,980 -you know not too many generations ago a lot of my ancestors were in europe and then they like for - -587 -01:02:58,980 --> 01:03:03,620 -whatever original religious persecution moved to a different country in europe and then like this - -588 -01:03:03,620 --> 01:03:09,780 -isn't working out so they come to the u.s and then they moved around in the u.s and so i'm sure i'm - -589 -01:03:09,780 --> 01:03:17,220 -you know like bitadels bitcoiners talk about citadels and i do think there's something there's a yearning - -590 -01:03:17,220 --> 01:03:26,500 -for what if we were truly established and what would that mean to have a good enough space that my kids not - -591 -01:03:26,500 --> 01:03:31,620 -only want to stay here because they have a free house or whatever but they want to stay here because - -592 -01:03:31,620 --> 01:03:37,540 -this is where they think they'll thrive and create something like a multi-generational because i think - -593 -01:03:37,540 --> 01:03:46,260 -a lot of the the idea of yourself as an atomic individual bopping around and just completely - -594 -01:03:46,260 --> 01:03:56,100 -unmoored is not very human and we kind of represent ourselves and act like that online a lot but i don't - -595 -01:03:56,100 --> 01:04:03,060 -think that's actually very in line with who we're actually designed to be and i know i'm discovering - -596 -01:04:03,060 --> 01:04:08,820 -that more of that yearning myself in the meat space of wanting like what would it take for me to find a - -597 -01:04:08,820 --> 01:04:14,340 -place that i thought i would thrive and i thought my kids would thrive and we're going to build we're - -598 -01:04:14,340 --> 01:04:21,060 -going to build a town called millersville or whatever it is uh i i i i find that yearning - -599 -01:04:21,860 --> 01:04:30,260 -um and and this idea that it's so common for young people to think that they kind of have to invent - -600 -01:04:30,260 --> 01:04:38,820 -their purpose it's a tall order especially at the age of 18 yeah and um i think some people are - -601 -01:04:38,820 --> 01:04:44,900 -going to have weird ideas and need to go invent their purpose but i don't think that hasn't been - -602 -01:04:45,460 --> 01:04:53,540 -the norm for all it also usually doesn't work right it's like you you it's um just like you can't you - -603 -01:04:53,540 --> 01:05:00,900 -know self-identify and just make anything up you can't really you you don't define your purpose you you - -604 -01:05:00,900 --> 01:05:08,180 -if you're lucky you find your purpose but it's it's it's always something that finds you and that pulls you - -605 -01:05:08,180 --> 01:05:13,300 -and that you find really interesting for some reason you can't you can't choose what you find - -606 -01:05:13,300 --> 01:05:19,220 -interesting you you really can't you can you can the the only thing you can do is like if you really - -607 -01:05:19,220 --> 01:05:24,020 -want to pick something up if you want to learn how to i don't know like play the violin or play - -608 -01:05:24,020 --> 01:05:28,100 -chess or whatever you can maneuver yourself in situations where you're surrounded by people that - -609 -01:05:28,100 --> 01:05:32,180 -do that all the time but where does the impulse come from like where why why are you interested - -610 -01:05:32,180 --> 01:05:37,460 -in doing that in the first place you know it's like it's it's because and i i say this out of - -611 -01:05:37,460 --> 01:05:44,020 -personal experience like i didn't choose to burn down my old life and my my my existing career to - -612 -01:05:44,020 --> 01:05:50,020 -go like all into bitcoin and go full-time into the insanity of that all like it really really really - -613 -01:05:50,020 --> 01:05:55,620 -pulled me and and similar to to to the last stuff now it's like it's it's it really pulls me because - -614 -01:05:55,620 --> 01:06:03,220 -i see so much potential in it i can't help but be interested in it it's it's it's it's and uh you know - -615 -01:06:03,220 --> 01:06:07,460 -i i disagree with parker heavily i don't think it's a distraction i think it's essential to have - -616 -01:06:07,460 --> 01:06:11,540 -like an identity layer that is actually permissionless on the internet to have - -617 -01:06:12,340 --> 01:06:17,540 -self-sovereign self-sovereignty in cyberspace to have something that allows for maximum agency it's - -618 -01:06:17,540 --> 01:06:21,140 -like because the alternative is like you'll you'll choose your gulag is the alternative - -619 -01:06:22,740 --> 01:06:27,700 -which is not a great alternative and and i i really like what you what you what you said about the - -620 -01:06:27,700 --> 01:06:33,700 -the the time aspect that the multi-generational aspect that's on i feel like as a society we lost - -621 -01:06:33,700 --> 01:06:39,060 -all of that like we we had you know like the indigenous people had like they based their - -622 -01:06:39,060 --> 01:06:47,700 -decisions on in part like how will this affect our family seven generations down the line we don't do - -623 -01:06:47,700 --> 01:06:52,980 -anything like that but i think especially in cyberspace with the stuff that we're building now i feel like - -624 -01:06:52,980 --> 01:06:58,500 -we should you know like it's i i feel like we kind of do like bitcoin is very low time preference - -625 -01:06:59,220 --> 01:07:05,300 -also from an engineering perspective you know emission stops in the year 2140 so that tells you - -626 -01:07:05,300 --> 01:07:09,620 -something about the time preference of the whole system already and so whatever you build but i think - -627 -01:07:09,620 --> 01:07:15,380 -also on the industrial side like whatever it whatever you build like will my grandkids be able to use that - -628 -01:07:15,380 --> 01:07:21,860 -just as just as we design it just as we architect it right now because the fucking unix tools for - -629 -01:07:21,860 --> 01:07:27,540 -example to come back to that yeah they build it that way i still use you know grapple whatever that - -630 -01:07:27,540 --> 01:07:34,020 -like some guy is cooked programming language yeah i i think that's something beautiful and i think that's - -631 -01:07:34,020 --> 01:07:41,540 -part of it it's like by building tools with your grandchildren in mind that is potentially something - -632 -01:07:41,540 --> 01:07:49,860 -that they can stick around for it's like if you are an atomic economic unit and the things that you make - -633 -01:07:49,860 --> 01:07:57,940 -are just in service of a one specific company what what part of that company are you passing on to - -634 -01:07:57,940 --> 01:08:03,460 -your kids unless you have like stock options but even then like what is what is it for them to do what - -635 -01:08:03,460 --> 01:08:11,780 -is it for them to carry on like what part of the job um is it is is it is the is there to work on - -636 -01:08:11,780 --> 01:08:16,340 -because we're not going to finish it we're just trying to go in the right direction like we're we're - -637 -01:08:16,340 --> 01:08:21,940 -trying to lay a foundation of a cathedral and i'm hoping my grandchild is really great at stained - -638 -01:08:21,940 --> 01:08:32,100 -glass when the time when the time comes yeah i think i i i you you you touched on it uh briefly but i - -639 -01:08:32,100 --> 01:08:40,100 -think the i mean we we cite the sovereign individual thesis a lot because i think the book got a lot of - -640 -01:08:40,100 --> 01:08:47,300 -things right when it comes to the inversion of power that cryptography brings with it uh like i i - -641 -01:08:47,300 --> 01:08:52,500 -mentioned it briefly today i think where it's like the the the superpower that cryptography - -642 -01:08:54,260 --> 01:09:01,780 -gives you is that you have a shield that force cannot break like if you encrypt something and you - -643 -01:09:01,780 --> 01:09:09,700 -know what you're doing like even if the us and china and russia would collude to try to brute force your - -644 -01:09:09,700 --> 01:09:15,620 -thing they can't like that's very very powerful the second thing is that there is no barrier to - -645 -01:09:15,620 --> 01:09:21,220 -entry anyone can use it it's just math basically so i always bring up the the thought experiment which - -646 -01:09:21,220 --> 01:09:26,580 -is way more than a thought experiment like i i know people that actually did it and for some of my keys - -647 -01:09:26,580 --> 01:09:34,020 -i did this myself where you actually you can you can lock yourself in the bathroom where you where you - -648 -01:09:34,020 --> 01:09:41,700 -have high assurances of privacy flip a coin a couple times and you come out with a working bitcoin - -649 -01:09:41,700 --> 01:09:46,340 -private key which means a working way to receive bitcoin like you basically you come out with a - -650 -01:09:46,340 --> 01:09:52,500 -bitcoin wallet so to speak you know and so so so those two things the permission less nature of it just - -651 -01:09:52,500 --> 01:10:00,340 -being math and the force inversion basically that that like you you basically have a thing that no - -652 -01:10:00,340 --> 01:10:07,700 -amount of violence in the world can break open that's what that's what affords you all the you know - -653 -01:10:08,900 --> 01:10:13,220 -all the it affords yourself sovereignty in cyberspace but i think where a lot of - -654 -01:10:14,420 --> 01:10:20,980 -a lot of uh think boys turned the wrong way it's like that doesn't mean that you're you're gonna be - -655 -01:10:20,980 --> 01:10:26,740 -the the so the sovereign individual thesis doesn't mean that you're completely self-sufficient about - -656 -01:10:26,740 --> 01:10:33,860 -absolutely everything you're not an atomized thing bumping around in the void you will always be - -657 -01:10:33,860 --> 01:10:42,100 -embedded in a social fabric to get anything done like or to stay sane even to have an identity even and - -658 -01:10:42,100 --> 01:10:47,780 -you'll always be dependent on outside factors even if it's just the environment you know it's and you - -659 -01:10:47,780 --> 01:10:52,740 -you hope also that people would be dependent on you yes you want to be of service right like in - -660 -01:10:52,740 --> 01:10:57,620 -the best case it's like you you want to do something useful with your life everyone who ever tried to - -661 -01:10:57,620 --> 01:11:02,340 -retire probably knows this it's like you you're hanging out on the beach and sipping margaritas for - -662 -01:11:02,340 --> 01:11:07,620 -two weeks and it's like what are you gonna do it's like you'll be depressed instantly but but - -663 -01:11:07,620 --> 01:11:13,780 -the reason why i bring all this up is because you even in a sovereign individual environment so to - -664 -01:11:13,780 --> 01:11:19,220 -speak it's like you're still gonna need social connection you're still gonna need reputation - -665 -01:11:19,220 --> 01:11:23,620 -all those kind of things all the all the things that that we're working on on the nostra side - -666 -01:11:23,620 --> 01:11:32,180 -because you need a functioning social structure to make anything work really like i mean the austrians - -667 -01:11:32,180 --> 01:11:38,100 -know this is like you know i pencil what do you need to create a pencil from scratch the no single - -668 -01:11:38,100 --> 01:11:42,580 -person can ever create a pencil from scratch and and and i think what we are kind of - -669 -01:11:44,180 --> 01:11:49,700 -hoping to do with the next iteration of the internet is like break open that silos and let - -670 -01:11:49,700 --> 01:11:56,980 -the whole thing self-organize as opposed to like you know like three gigantic platforms dictate how - -671 -01:11:56,980 --> 01:12:01,940 -the whole thing works i think that's kind of the underlying ethos and i think it's not it's not a self - -672 -01:12:01,940 --> 01:12:08,820 -organization like a borg consciousness no it's more like a jungle self-organizing yeah yeah i think - -673 -01:12:08,820 --> 01:12:15,540 -there's a like a i think there's a real low role for leadership that i think i think bitcoiners are - -674 -01:12:15,540 --> 01:12:23,060 -naturally contrarian and anti-authoritarian and a lot of them have been burned by specific bad leaders - -675 -01:12:23,780 --> 01:12:30,020 -but if you think of like why do we have the good things that we have it's mostly because one - -676 -01:12:30,020 --> 01:12:36,500 -one individual thought really hard about something worked really hard on something pushed really - -677 -01:12:36,500 --> 01:12:42,100 -hard and then you know sometimes you could just push it off the shore and it works you know sometimes - -678 -01:12:42,100 --> 01:12:51,140 -you have to sometimes you need a captain on the ship you know i i think i think humans naturally crave - -679 -01:12:53,780 --> 01:12:58,340 -leadership and authority and it doesn't that doesn't mean by decree it's different than - -680 -01:12:59,140 --> 01:13:05,460 -because i said so like fiat i love when jimmy song says like fiat is latin for because yeah yeah - -681 -01:13:06,180 --> 01:13:11,220 -it's different than because i said it looks let there be light there's an earned form of leadership - -682 -01:13:11,220 --> 01:13:19,300 -where you defer to someone who's put in the work and it has risked something and is pushing hard for - -683 -01:13:19,300 --> 01:13:25,300 -something and we don't always have to defer to everybody all the time but i think we should be on the - -684 -01:13:25,300 --> 01:13:32,100 -lookout for uh for leaders and interesting it's interesting that you say that i'm not sure if i - -685 -01:13:32,100 --> 01:13:40,820 -agree it's in the in the sense of i know that the human like all humans like leaders and especially - -686 -01:13:41,620 --> 01:13:48,100 -charismatic leaders and so on like everyone kind of tries to find someone to to lead the way and and - -687 -01:13:48,100 --> 01:13:53,780 -kind of you know steer the ship and those kind of things but i when i when i wanna when i hope - -688 -01:13:57,380 --> 01:14:03,300 -i and it's it's it's it's fascinating to me that you're saying this because what what christianity - -689 -01:14:03,300 --> 01:14:09,060 -shows like as a christian you're saying this it's like i i'm in some sense yes christians are following - -690 -01:14:09,060 --> 01:14:16,900 -jesus yes but in in my mind and maybe i'm very wrong about it but it's it's like it's the right story - -691 -01:14:16,900 --> 01:14:21,700 -it's the right story to tell it's like it's it's not even yes it's the right person to follow but - -692 -01:14:21,700 --> 01:14:26,820 -it's it's it's in in my in my mind it's even bigger than that it's like it's like what what is the - -693 -01:14:26,820 --> 01:14:32,900 -vision you know like what is the vision what is the what is something that is worth aiming at and - -694 -01:14:33,940 --> 01:14:38,660 -that's what i want to figure out for i think that's the that's the peterson - -695 -01:14:38,660 --> 01:14:48,260 -heresy fair enough fair enough oh we found an archetype fair enough where jesus says i am - -696 -01:14:48,260 --> 01:14:54,020 -the way yeah yeah i am the truth i am the life but that's the but that's you said you just said i - -697 -01:14:54,020 --> 01:14:59,940 -don't and and i mean everyone who who who uh you know knows a little bit about this stuff knows this - -698 -01:14:59,940 --> 01:15:06,180 -but it's the early followers of of jesus of nazareth were uh um the followers of the way - -699 -01:15:06,180 --> 01:15:12,820 -and he said he was the way and the embodiment of the way so to speak and and and so so in the taoist - -700 -01:15:12,820 --> 01:15:18,820 -tradition that there is only the way you know there is like the uh and and i i feel like that - -701 -01:15:18,820 --> 01:15:23,140 -bringing it back to cyberspace and to the current iteration of the internet i feel like we lost the way - -702 -01:15:23,940 --> 01:15:29,780 -massively and i'm not sure if a person can bring it back i don't think elon is gonna save us i don't - -703 -01:15:29,780 --> 01:15:35,780 -think doge is gonna save us i don't think trump is gonna save us i think what we we have to ask ourselves - -704 -01:15:35,780 --> 01:15:41,780 -the really hard questions is like what should the internet be i i well yes we should ask ourselves - -705 -01:15:41,780 --> 01:15:48,100 -that question we should discuss amongst ourselves i think the thing is you know that this podcast is - -706 -01:15:48,100 --> 01:15:52,820 -no solutions only trade us right we're humans we're not none of us so if we don't have a person - -707 -01:15:52,820 --> 01:15:59,380 -none of us is going to be the jesus of the internet i hope not but what you i'm sure you've been involved - -708 -01:15:59,380 --> 01:16:07,620 -in things that are a design by committee versus designed by an individual a sahil - -709 -01:16:08,980 --> 01:16:15,780 -big one designer talks about this is the throat to choke you don't end up with an inspired design that - -710 -01:16:16,420 --> 01:16:25,380 -considers trade-offs when you when you are designed by committee you're settling for something that - -711 -01:16:25,380 --> 01:16:34,340 -doesn't piss anybody off yeah leader is able to to push for something that is going to make 20 of - -712 -01:16:34,340 --> 01:16:41,140 -the people really sad no great art was ever done by a committee yes yeah yes and i think we need a - -713 -01:16:41,140 --> 01:16:49,140 -little bit more of that art i see i see i see yeah that kind of makes sense now i i definitely agree that - -714 -01:16:49,140 --> 01:16:55,460 -um i don't know that's another balance to strike i feel like there are some systems that really - -715 -01:16:56,660 --> 01:17:06,340 -thrive on not putting too much weight on a single individual um again like i i pablo mentioned this - -716 -01:17:06,340 --> 01:17:10,820 -briefly like i'm i'm a huge believer in distributed cognition that's why i think like having these - -717 -01:17:10,820 --> 01:17:15,940 -conversations is super important having the having the the constant dialogue about this stuff is super - -718 -01:17:15,940 --> 01:17:21,060 -important because no single person is going to figure everything out it's just like there's going - -719 -01:17:21,060 --> 01:17:26,660 -to be a little nugget of insight here a little nugget of of insight there and like uh uh again - -720 -01:17:26,660 --> 01:17:32,100 -we're coining new terms and phrases as we move along because we're trying to think through those things and - -721 -01:17:32,100 --> 01:17:37,460 -we are i'm still convinced like we're missing most of the vocabulary to meaningfully talk about - -722 -01:17:37,460 --> 01:17:44,180 -this stuff and like uh like pablo and i we we already talked about like the the the um the data being - -723 -01:17:44,180 --> 01:17:49,380 -bearer and it's like uh um we landed on a different term just like yesterday which was uh - -724 -01:17:50,660 --> 01:17:54,660 -self-sufficient data or something like that now i'm blanking on the term again self-verifying - -725 -01:17:54,660 --> 01:17:59,940 -self-verifying where where it's just like if you have the data you have everything you need - -726 -01:17:59,940 --> 01:18:04,900 -where it comes from there there is no authority yeah it removes the authority from the equation - -727 -01:18:04,900 --> 01:18:10,660 -and then when i talked with with kelly like we landed on on a blinded custodian you know like it's - -728 -01:18:10,660 --> 01:18:14,340 -there's a difference between a custodian a regular custodian and the blinded custodian - -729 -01:18:14,340 --> 01:18:19,300 -there's a big difference and so we're figuring out all these all these terms and and we're doing - -730 -01:18:19,300 --> 01:18:25,060 -it by you know like participating in this distributed cognition i think saps is a great example for - -731 -01:18:25,060 --> 01:18:30,260 -example as well saps are not payments they can be payments but they are not exclusively payments - -732 -01:18:30,260 --> 01:18:36,900 -saps are also not tips i think and i think it was fantastic of will to not call them tips like i i you - -733 -01:18:36,900 --> 01:18:40,420 -uh you know i had a little bit of a say in that because i was like if you call them tips you're - -734 -01:18:40,420 --> 01:18:44,820 -only gonna get tips and it's just gonna be like you're exhibiting some leadership yeah no no - -735 -01:18:47,700 --> 01:18:52,500 -you know the thing with cheeses is that he ends up on the cross that's uh that's uh no no - -736 -01:18:52,500 --> 01:18:59,620 -fuck that not at all and and um like i i didn't come up with saps i didn't uh you know like not at - -737 -01:18:59,620 --> 01:19:04,420 -all i know the leader doesn't come up with everything no no but don't try to bully me into becoming a - -738 -01:19:04,420 --> 01:19:11,140 -leader of anything i i try to remove myself the the goal of this experiment by the way is to to to - -739 -01:19:11,140 --> 01:19:18,900 -to end it and potentially i think what we can do in uh these leaderless maloos is find people that we - -740 -01:19:18,900 --> 01:19:25,540 -tend to agree who have been have great track records like in bitcoin i love uh like uh bitstein - -741 -01:19:25,540 --> 01:19:32,100 -and piero shark oh fantastic what a track fantastic they started talking again uh by the way as well - -742 -01:19:32,100 --> 01:19:38,020 -like broadcasting yes that's great yes that's great to hear yeah yeah but reorg so many early - -743 -01:19:38,020 --> 01:19:43,140 -called shots yeah and i you know i love that so like people who have a long track record of being - -744 -01:19:43,140 --> 01:19:52,260 -right yeah um that you like have a good vibe about uh and that are speaking you know since i think are - -745 -01:19:52,260 --> 01:19:59,140 -are people that you you can like because yes one person can't make all the decisions but also as an - -746 -01:19:59,140 --> 01:20:06,420 -individual i am under indexed on all the knowledge i need to make the right decision for myself a lot - -747 -01:20:06,420 --> 01:20:15,300 -of times so i i'm hopefully looking to people that i view as wise as quality yes yes yes yes and i was - -748 -01:20:15,300 --> 01:20:24,820 -just about to say i feel like we have way too many leaders and way too few wise people and i i i so not - -749 -01:20:24,820 --> 01:20:31,540 -want to want to be a leader i can see myself smoking a pipe on the porch having a gray beard and trying - -750 -01:20:31,540 --> 01:20:39,780 -to you know just uh you know talk to the youngsters of of what they might not have considered you know - -751 -01:20:39,780 --> 01:20:45,780 -like we we have very few old people with experience that have seen that know - -752 -01:20:45,780 --> 01:20:52,100 -shit and and they're they're completely excluded from these conversations where and and verveke - -753 -01:20:52,100 --> 01:20:58,100 -always always asks us like where do you go for wisdom in today's day and age because people where - -754 -01:20:58,100 --> 01:21:01,620 -do you go for information where do you go for knowledge and where do you go for wisdom the - -755 -01:21:01,620 --> 01:21:05,620 -information is easy it's like you go to google chat computer whatever where do you go for knowledge - -756 -01:21:05,620 --> 01:21:10,020 -like it used to be the library all those kind of things and so where do you go for wisdom everyone - -757 -01:21:10,020 --> 01:21:16,180 -draws a blank there is no place to go for wisdom so i i don't think we need need leaders necessarily - -758 -01:21:16,180 --> 01:21:21,860 -like in the sense of oh we're gonna dictate like how this needs to be done but but i i i i think we - -759 -01:21:21,860 --> 01:21:27,220 -need i wise people i think when you even when you said that i it's uh the weather disagrees it starts - -760 -01:21:27,220 --> 01:21:33,860 -raining again so so god is angry with my me not stepping up oh yeah thanks - -761 -01:21:33,860 --> 01:21:44,900 -should we should we try to make the same move sure let's try you up to it let's try i'll see i can i - -762 -01:21:44,900 --> 01:21:50,580 -can walk again a little bit maybe with crutches and everything up easier than the stairs yeah let's - -763 -01:21:50,580 --> 01:21:58,260 -take the stairs but yeah no i think i just you know bitcoin as a leaderless system i think it's just - -764 -01:21:58,260 --> 01:22:06,580 -allergic to i don't think so at all i think bitcoin had a leader you know satoshi nakamoto and then he - -765 -01:22:06,580 --> 01:22:13,140 -left and then when i showed up to bitcoin uh it had a technically it had a a peter willa - -766 -01:22:15,140 --> 01:22:21,940 -that's an awesome peter willa meme it's like rough consensus like it's a scooby-doo meme where it's like - -767 -01:22:22,500 --> 01:22:28,100 -rips off the face that the bad guy is hiding under and it's like now we'll finally know - -768 -01:22:28,100 --> 01:22:37,380 -who we are consensus yeah i guess you have a point so you i think that's the thing is is there - -769 -01:22:38,980 --> 01:22:42,740 -that's my current belief is that there isn't such a thing as a leaderless system - -770 -01:22:43,620 --> 01:22:51,140 -people might not know uh exactly who it's like you know we all knew that uh joe biden wasn't - -771 -01:22:51,140 --> 01:22:56,900 -president we didn't necessarily knew know who was but i don't think anybody really thought that - -772 -01:22:56,900 --> 01:23:04,820 -there was some sort of like rough consensus going on at the white house yeah fair enough i mean it's - -773 -01:23:04,820 --> 01:23:11,140 -i don't know i again like i don't i don't i don't have the answers my best i can do right now is to - -774 -01:23:11,140 --> 01:23:18,500 -talk about stuff and i think i think i hope that we'll just figure it out along the way and my again - -775 -01:23:18,500 --> 01:23:21,780 -my main worry is that we're just going to repeat the mistakes of the past - -776 -01:23:21,780 --> 01:23:28,420 -and that's kind of like also what i mean by that's usually what the old wise guy is for you know - -777 -01:23:28,420 --> 01:23:32,980 -he's been around and he saw the things and he had the wisdom passed down from you know his granddad and - -778 -01:23:32,980 --> 01:23:38,820 -so on and so he knows what not to do he doesn't know what to do right but he at least knows what not - -779 -01:23:38,820 --> 01:23:49,300 -to do and i find in my life that i usually don't listen to the guy who tells me what not to do - -780 -01:23:50,260 --> 01:23:58,980 -and i do it but then i realize he was right yeah and so i recover from that mistake a lot quicker - -781 -01:23:58,980 --> 01:24:06,500 -with a lot sharper understanding of what just happened because my new mistake that i otherwise - -782 -01:24:06,500 --> 01:24:11,300 -you'd be lost probably yeah yeah so i mean i know that for you know i've been a christian my - -783 -01:24:11,300 --> 01:24:19,060 -whole life i read the bible i've got a million sermons you know i have so much wisdom from god - -784 -01:24:21,780 --> 01:24:25,140 -buried several layers deep under like a folder of tiktoks - -785 -01:24:26,740 --> 01:24:32,100 -in my brain and so when i make a mistake and i feel the pain of that mistake - -786 -01:24:32,100 --> 01:24:39,060 -i can it kind of reinforces the wisdom that i receive from the bible and also kind of like - -787 -01:24:39,060 --> 01:24:44,820 -prompts me okay let's go back what was the bible say what was the specifics of that passage what else - -788 -01:24:44,820 --> 01:24:49,620 -could we like really lock in this learning that is one of the most frustrating things getting older - -789 -01:24:50,260 --> 01:24:55,540 -making the same mistake over and over it's bad enough to do it one time but making the same mistake - -790 -01:24:55,540 --> 01:25:00,740 -a bunch of times that's really that's really yeah i like the saying let's make new mistakes you know - -791 -01:25:00,740 --> 01:25:08,420 -like that's that's way better do you prompt the bible at all uh i um i kind of use it first i'll - -792 -01:25:08,420 --> 01:25:14,260 -use a ai for search of the bible okay what was the passage all right what's diverse that mentions this - -793 -01:25:14,260 --> 01:25:18,500 -and that okay if i'm like i can't remember the exact text because i as far as i'm aware people - -794 -01:25:18,500 --> 01:25:24,020 -build systems where you actually can talk to the bible basically in some sense and respond in some way - -795 -01:25:24,020 --> 01:25:39,620 -i mean i just there is so the they um there's a a thinking in christianity of of being what's called a - -796 -01:25:39,620 --> 01:25:47,460 -confessional church which is a church that is modeling its theology on like the old confessions of - -797 -01:25:47,460 --> 01:25:53,940 -faith like i believe in god the father son you know like the those kind of uh the idea that there - -798 -01:25:53,940 --> 01:26:02,740 -has been a corpus of um theological truths that have been derived from scripture over the history - -799 -01:26:02,740 --> 01:26:11,140 -and that i build on those and so i don't just uh go to the bible without any context or help so i have - -800 -01:26:11,140 --> 01:26:18,180 -i have like two thousands of two thousand years of historical good teaching on the layers build up - -801 -01:26:18,180 --> 01:26:28,900 -on that yeah yeah and so uh i wouldn't trust the ai to like mix those carefully chosen words written - -802 -01:26:28,900 --> 01:26:36,500 -like hundreds or thousands of years ago into like a new sentence no i wouldn't trust the precision - -803 -01:26:36,500 --> 01:26:41,860 -all right so be careful with bible flop yeah don't be careful with javascript - -804 -01:26:41,860 --> 01:26:48,580 -slop no it's not as dangerous there's no confessional javascript yet - -805 -01:26:55,060 --> 01:27:00,420 -no i just i just i just i i was assuming that you would because i i see you prompting - -806 -01:27:00,980 --> 01:27:06,340 -you know almost everything now uh you're a prompt expert in my book you showed me the ways - -807 -01:27:06,340 --> 01:27:14,260 -of cursor and all that stuff so i love the i love the sensation of moving quickly and i think - -808 -01:27:14,260 --> 01:27:21,860 -a lot of it is this based on like what am i really bringing to the table here it's the intent like the - -809 -01:27:21,860 --> 01:27:28,660 -why and the how or not the how the why and the what yeah i'm deciding what should happen and why it - -810 -01:27:28,660 --> 01:27:35,780 -should be happening i was never the world's greatest coder yeah it's always shipping some bugs so now i - -811 -01:27:35,780 --> 01:27:44,100 -can ship the ai's bugs and i can move like 10 times faster so i love it for that um but you know - -812 -01:27:44,100 --> 01:27:49,140 -it's interesting you know you know that thing with like when you see an article in the newspaper on a - -813 -01:27:49,140 --> 01:27:54,180 -topic that you actually know a lot about and you see how many mistakes it makes and we forget that then - -814 -01:27:54,180 --> 01:28:00,340 -you turn the page yeah all of the articles are probably that mistakey i know for instance with like - -815 -01:28:00,340 --> 01:28:06,900 -creative writing because i used to you know write uh professionally like write essays and stuff like - -816 -01:28:06,900 --> 01:28:17,620 -that ai can't come close to uh what i would like out of an essay it is so far from inspired in that - -817 -01:28:17,620 --> 01:28:24,980 -sense yeah yeah i actually think i think code ends up being ai is really good at code because it's such a - -818 -01:28:24,980 --> 01:28:32,100 -small subset of language yeah it's actually it's it's impressive how good it is at language but it's - -819 -01:28:32,100 --> 01:28:40,340 -so far from the level we use language at yeah we'll see how all that evolves like i keep being impressed - -820 -01:28:40,340 --> 01:28:47,140 -um and like i mentioned like i i i read all the ai books back in the day and was a big like - -821 -01:28:47,140 --> 01:28:53,140 -you know part of the singularity crowd basically and just like we're gonna hit the knee of the curve - -822 -01:28:53,140 --> 01:28:57,540 -anytime now i feel like we're all we're very close to the knee of the curve now with just um - -823 -01:28:58,660 --> 01:29:04,820 -the way that the llms work and still improve and there is no tapering off in terms of improvements - -824 -01:29:04,820 --> 01:29:14,900 -really again like verveki has great arguments about why ai won't reach like sagi status anytime soon - -825 -01:29:14,900 --> 01:29:23,620 -unless we decide to embody it and like actually give actually put uh the llms into robots and let them - -826 -01:29:23,620 --> 01:29:28,980 -learn by experience as an embodied thing in the real world and all those kind of things like he has long - -827 -01:29:28,980 --> 01:29:33,700 -long chains of arguments around it but it's still it's still very impressive to me what the - -828 -01:29:34,260 --> 01:29:40,900 -things can do and it's especially impressive on the coding side because you can single prompt your - -829 -01:29:40,900 --> 01:29:46,020 -way to glory into something that like basically works and i agree on the writing side like when - -830 -01:29:46,020 --> 01:29:51,460 -it comes to creative writing they're not great and you can most of the time spot still spot when - -831 -01:29:51,460 --> 01:29:58,580 -if something is generated or not like it always has kind of the same feel to it in some way and uh i mean - -832 -01:29:58,580 --> 01:30:04,020 -you know like they are not truly agentic yet because they're not self-motivated and thus they are not - -833 -01:30:04,020 --> 01:30:10,820 -inspiring to use your words you know like they can't inspire they they can't even inspire themselves - -834 -01:30:11,380 --> 01:30:17,380 -yeah well there's a lot of there's a lot of thinking on like where where new information comes - -835 -01:30:17,380 --> 01:30:25,780 -from and i kind of have a theory that like if you you could think of if you think of the universe as a - -836 -01:30:25,780 --> 01:30:33,700 -closed system humans are accessing a lot of the universe and therefore are discovering more about it - -837 -01:30:33,700 --> 01:30:41,460 -and then we learn new information that is at least new to our corpus of texts and discoveries - -838 -01:30:41,460 --> 01:30:46,420 -and stuff like that and then that's what we feed into the ai so it's possible that the embodied ai - -839 -01:30:46,980 --> 01:30:53,780 -will have access to to such a broad something more like you know the actual universe so therefore - -840 -01:30:54,580 --> 01:31:02,100 -so much more information but i don't think that a closed system can invent new - -841 -01:31:02,980 --> 01:31:10,500 -information well well i think we'll find out well uh someone is gonna you know some crazy chinese or - -842 -01:31:10,500 --> 01:31:17,380 -russian guy is gonna is gonna try and put these things into a dog robot i have to admit i've been - -843 -01:31:17,380 --> 01:31:25,860 -very underestimating the the reach of ai as much as i love it right now uh i mean ai has been - -844 -01:31:26,580 --> 01:31:32,820 -the wildest shift in technology i've experienced in my life and i was paying very much attention - -845 -01:31:33,700 --> 01:31:45,860 -when we went online and when uh the um the web 2.0 era and the iphone era i was paying very close - -846 -01:31:45,860 --> 01:31:51,860 -attention for several a couple of those i was a technology journalist and i've never felt something - -847 -01:31:51,860 --> 01:31:57,060 -that especially probably because my profession is coding and it's that's the profession most impacted - -848 -01:31:57,060 --> 01:32:05,220 -by this it's wild that like a year ago i was handwriting code yeah it's like it's like a year ago - -849 -01:32:06,020 --> 01:32:13,460 -i was a like it was a different era as a shovel digger yeah and now there exists like you know bulldozers - -850 -01:32:13,460 --> 01:32:17,300 -yeah sandwich said it well today where it's like if you know what you're doing you basically have - -851 -01:32:17,300 --> 01:32:24,820 -200 like very capable coding peons under you you know that just can like if you divvy up the tasks - -852 -01:32:24,820 --> 01:32:32,180 -correctly and if you know what you want to do and build the right kind of um system for the agents - -853 -01:32:32,980 --> 01:32:37,940 -they will just build all the things and what would have taken you a team of 20 people in six months you - -854 -01:32:37,940 --> 01:32:44,020 -can do solo in like an hour and what i love about this is a part of it is exposing what are humans - -855 -01:32:44,020 --> 01:32:50,260 -actually for yeah i feel like we're in a constant discovery process like turns out you know the - -856 -01:32:50,260 --> 01:32:55,860 -there's a famous do you know the john john henry story no this is like an old american folk tale of - -857 -01:32:55,860 --> 01:33:04,420 -john henry he's like basically the world's greatest um steel driving man so he's hammering rail ties - -858 -01:33:05,620 --> 01:33:12,020 -and then they came out with a machine that could hammer rail ties so they put in the machine - -859 -01:33:12,020 --> 01:33:17,620 -against john henry and john henry went as fast as he could and he beat the machine but then he dies - -860 -01:33:20,020 --> 01:33:23,620 -and so it's like it's like the swan song of the steel driving man - -861 -01:33:24,580 --> 01:33:28,340 -and so it's like we you know we put our identity in the one - -862 -01:33:29,300 --> 01:33:32,660 -it's the it's the german fairy tale version of a happy ending you know - -863 -01:33:33,620 --> 01:33:36,820 -he beats the machine then he burns alive or something like that - -864 -01:33:36,820 --> 01:33:42,580 -yeah so that's the you know we're always you know i i think i feel the same - -865 -01:33:43,540 --> 01:33:50,100 -i strongly disagree about with tucker that we shouldn't let the ai take over like truck driving - -866 -01:33:50,100 --> 01:34:00,180 -for instance because the truck driver that is not who that guy is that guy that guy has an incredible - -867 -01:34:00,180 --> 01:34:05,300 -that guy is responsible for carrying millions of dollars worth of goods around he can wake up in - -868 -01:34:05,300 --> 01:34:11,860 -the morning he's he could be upstanding pillar of a society but he's gone on the road all the time - -869 -01:34:11,860 --> 01:34:18,740 -and so um you know if somebody finds all you know absolutely just loves being in a truck all the time - -870 -01:34:18,740 --> 01:34:24,020 -i'm sure we you know they could find i mean we saw that with horses right it's like everyone had to - -871 -01:34:24,020 --> 01:34:28,340 -ride horses for transportation and now it's like if you really want to ride horses and it's your thing - -872 -01:34:28,340 --> 01:34:35,140 -yeah you can i think we'll still need good training data of what good try driving actually looks like - -873 -01:34:35,140 --> 01:34:42,180 -yeah i think i think we'll you know i'd say with code we need we need luddites who hate ai - -874 -01:34:43,220 --> 01:34:49,940 -to write really great code in new programming languages so that we can trade ai yeah we need a - -875 -01:34:49,940 --> 01:34:55,780 -trading set of of carefully thought through information yeah we'll see i think i'll link - -876 -01:34:55,780 --> 01:35:00,260 -to i'll have to send it to you um again very can makes a great argument about - -877 -01:35:03,300 --> 01:35:08,820 -like he has a theory of mind i would say where - -878 -01:35:10,980 --> 01:35:18,740 -he may he makes a great argument like what would be missing like why why why is ai not wise right now - -879 -01:35:18,740 --> 01:35:25,860 -like if we if we could have silicon sages then he would be in favor of having them like if we could - -880 -01:35:25,860 --> 01:35:34,900 -build ai that is as wise as as jesus or as laute or like pick your you know as buddha you know um - -881 -01:35:34,900 --> 01:35:39,860 -then that would be fantastic like you have your own personal jesus in your pocket basically that that - -882 -01:35:39,860 --> 01:35:46,820 -will never mislead you and will always have right have will always point you into into the right - -883 -01:35:46,820 --> 01:35:52,500 -direction you'll have a wise sage at your side but he has great arguments of like why we can't - -884 -01:35:52,500 --> 01:35:58,020 -have that yet and what is still missing until we reach that point and kind of we have to make a - -885 -01:35:59,380 --> 01:36:03,940 -decision as a society if we would want to have that for example because it's it's not going to be - -886 -01:36:03,940 --> 01:36:06,820 -all sunshines and sunshine and rainbows think of two - -887 -01:36:06,820 --> 01:36:20,100 -counterfactuals for why that could exist i think of the conscience and uh the um the muse i think we - -888 -01:36:20,100 --> 01:36:28,100 -have reference to two things that are you know you do not build up a conscience by like going through - -889 -01:36:28,100 --> 01:36:32,900 -like the utilitarian arguments until you derive morality like conscience i think is something that's - -890 -01:36:32,900 --> 01:36:42,340 -built into a human i think it's god given and then the muse you creative people have been visited by - -891 -01:36:42,900 --> 01:36:52,740 -yeah something yeah over the ages that leads them to do something new and i don't i don't think it's - -892 -01:36:52,740 --> 01:36:57,940 -just derived from their collection of experiences necessarily i think that's something there's something - -893 -01:36:57,940 --> 01:37:04,740 -more to it yeah yeah i don't have an answer to that at all like i'm not sure if the muse will - -894 -01:37:05,940 --> 01:37:09,460 -visit you know claude sonnet hasn't yet - -895 -01:37:13,300 --> 01:37:19,060 -but we'll see we'll find it out all right i think i'll need to lie down now okay my foot is swollen - -896 -01:37:19,780 --> 01:37:26,500 -my brain is fried we it was a walking thing after all because we got rained on and we had to walk twice - -897 -01:37:26,500 --> 01:37:35,940 -at least 40 steps into this conversation and yeah no i i i feel like we we we there were like - -898 -01:37:35,940 --> 01:37:41,860 -five things that i wanted to hit on with you and we we kind of didn't it's maybe maybe let's end on - -899 -01:37:41,860 --> 01:37:48,100 -that i i i want to i want to i want to pick your brain a little bit like purely on the current - -900 -01:37:48,100 --> 01:37:59,620 -nostril development side so um you've been you've been working on hypernode for a little while now it - -901 -01:37:59,620 --> 01:38:04,180 -was an experiment of the of the first cohort and came out of that and i was super excited about it - -902 -01:38:04,180 --> 01:38:08,660 -because i was like okay we're gonna we're gonna bring back the good parts of the old internet in - -903 -01:38:08,660 --> 01:38:16,660 -some way um what are your current thoughts about it and i i think it evolved like the last time you - -904 -01:38:16,660 --> 01:38:24,020 -showed it off just just last week uh there was lots of new thought in there so what's your let's - -905 -01:38:24,020 --> 01:38:32,980 -end on the intention what's your intention for for the project is it's it's it's really twofold it's - -906 -01:38:32,980 --> 01:38:42,820 -it's it's geo cities the just the pure personal expression and then it's micro app development - -907 -01:38:43,940 --> 01:38:51,620 -so you know before we had the web there was hyper card and that was a very easy to use - -908 -01:38:51,620 --> 01:38:58,580 -gooey drag and drop way to make like an app for the mac like mist was originally written as a hyper card - -909 -01:38:58,580 --> 01:39:08,820 -so you can make these interactive applications with very minimal scripting and so you know right now - -910 -01:39:08,820 --> 01:39:16,820 -the way we make software for the web is we're piling a ton of shit on top of each other to to make it - -911 -01:39:16,820 --> 01:39:23,060 -happen and everything's kind of written from scratch right like in some sense it's like the way i i read - -912 -01:39:23,060 --> 01:39:28,500 -it what you were saying is like you'll have the vision for hyper node would be to have predefined - -913 -01:39:28,500 --> 01:39:34,100 -elements that work out of the box just like html forms for example or those those elements right - -914 -01:39:34,100 --> 01:39:44,580 -or hyperlinks yeah um and but that are like highly composable and also customizable and styleable - -915 -01:39:44,580 --> 01:39:50,820 -right did i get this right somehow in some sense yeah yeah i think i think so so yeah it's like it's - -916 -01:39:50,820 --> 01:40:02,340 -basically if you have um it's a good example if you have the intent to make an app uh and you have - -917 -01:40:02,340 --> 01:40:08,500 -you already we already have a win we already gave you a back in for free yeah so you have nostr as your - -918 -01:40:08,500 --> 01:40:14,980 -back end so now what do you want to do with the app well you you have to decide what should the app do - -919 -01:40:14,980 --> 01:40:22,500 -and you also have a user database uh a social graph login everything built in you have these dvms - -920 -01:40:22,500 --> 01:40:30,420 -you can have all these compute built in yeah so what i think we could have is kind of a standardized set - -921 -01:40:30,420 --> 01:40:38,020 -of elements just like you know the the web got you links to link to other hypertext documents - -922 -01:40:38,020 --> 01:40:47,060 -and forms with buttons to post yeah information to a server yeah that was basically what the web and - -923 -01:40:47,060 --> 01:40:54,820 -you could express ebay and google yeah and yahoo and like basically most of the web 1.0 that we know - -924 -01:40:54,820 --> 01:41:02,340 -was you know fairly javascript free and you could express really great apps so if you had elements - -925 -01:41:02,340 --> 01:41:10,340 -that represented like here's a profile here's a zap button you know the things that we already use - -926 -01:41:10,340 --> 01:41:18,980 -nostr for let's make a hypermedia representation of them that you can import into your app so yeah i think - -927 -01:41:18,980 --> 01:41:26,260 -of it as kind of like an easy way to make a nostr app um also and hopefully and this is where it gets - -928 -01:41:26,260 --> 01:41:33,300 -harder and why i think it's going to take some iteration hopefully a way to express an interface - -929 -01:41:33,940 --> 01:41:41,380 -for a novel nip so i have a new thing that i want to add to nostr but there's no clients that support - -930 -01:41:41,380 --> 01:41:48,020 -it yet and so i can express the interface for that as a hypernote and publish that hypernote and now - -931 -01:41:48,020 --> 01:41:54,260 -clients that support hypernote have at least a placeholder ui for it before they want to integrate - -932 -01:41:54,260 --> 01:42:02,180 -it themselves or maybe they never need to or want to um and so in the long run i mean you know i - -933 -01:42:02,180 --> 01:42:08,500 -really want to make an operating system so if this becomes a good way to define applications and i and - -934 -01:42:08,500 --> 01:42:14,820 -the operating system is built around like a personal relay you know then you're making little apps you - -935 -01:42:14,820 --> 01:42:19,300 -know you sit down on your computer you decide what you want to do you pray about it and you build a - -936 -01:42:19,300 --> 01:42:27,220 -little app that does the thing and that's a that would be a good day um you know what we have now - -937 -01:42:27,780 --> 01:42:36,180 -we have so many layers of legacy i mean literally the easiest way to make an app for your phone - -938 -01:42:36,180 --> 01:42:44,260 -is to use this thing called react native yeah which is like a using react which is an abstraction upon - -939 -01:42:44,260 --> 01:42:50,020 -top of javascript and this thing called jsx which is a version it's kind of like the dom but it's not - -940 -01:42:50,020 --> 01:42:56,100 -the dom and then you run a javascript runtime and then that's orchestrating swift ui components - -941 -01:42:56,100 --> 01:43:01,300 -which is all pretty still kind of based on objective c and then the actual operating system is written - -942 -01:43:01,300 --> 01:43:07,220 -in c you know there we have so much so many layers of complexity in our current tech stack and a lot of - -943 -01:43:07,220 --> 01:43:14,340 -that is incidental to it being written by like trillion dollar companies and when when we need - -944 -01:43:14,340 --> 01:43:20,340 -to work in the small we actually can't afford to have that much complexity we can't maintain that much - -945 -01:43:20,340 --> 01:43:27,940 -complexity so i hope that we can find simpler more direct ways to do things and i hope hypernote - -946 -01:43:27,940 --> 01:43:35,060 -could be a part a part of that and also maybe it will just be like a resurrection of adobe flash - -947 -01:43:37,140 --> 01:43:43,300 -oh my lord i remember these days let's let's maybe not bring everything back let's be selective - -948 -01:43:46,020 --> 01:43:51,700 -but yeah no i'm i'm super excited about it i i like where where stuff is going just in general i i feel - -949 -01:43:51,700 --> 01:43:57,700 -a lot of the things are currently converging i think the building blocks that we already have are - -950 -01:43:57,700 --> 01:44:03,700 -are being understood by more and more people so that has me uh quite optimistic as well and i mean - -951 -01:44:03,700 --> 01:44:10,820 -the the um you know the llms in particular like it's what's so amazing to me is that you can actually - -952 -01:44:11,780 --> 01:44:16,980 -you know like today like i i did nothing else for the last couple days now it's just like you can just - -953 -01:44:18,180 --> 01:44:26,660 -prompt the thing to hey use pablo's ndk use like the new vertex dvm that came out last like last week to - -954 -01:44:26,660 --> 01:44:32,580 -calculate a web of trust core and so on and it will grab all the info from github and docs and - -955 -01:44:32,580 --> 01:44:39,060 -whatever and it will throw it together and it will work so that sure as hell is gonna accelerate things - -956 -01:44:39,060 --> 01:44:46,340 -as well like accelerate um you know things on our side for building freedom tech for sure as well and - -957 -01:44:46,340 --> 01:44:51,780 -i appreciate this podcast this that this attempt to share some of this wisdom and so that we don't - -958 -01:44:51,780 --> 01:44:57,220 -have to make the same mistakes we'll have to land on wisdom first uh sure that would be nice but - -959 -01:44:57,780 --> 01:44:59,220 -vendors can be choosers - -960 -01:45:03,540 --> 01:45:10,820 -no but it's like that that's why like i i really appreciate the conversation because i i knew that - -961 -01:45:10,820 --> 01:45:17,780 -you were going through the early days of the internet very very closely like you were very close to all of - -962 -01:45:17,780 --> 01:45:24,420 -that it's very apparent by just you know like the listening to you speak and and watching what you - -963 -01:45:24,420 --> 01:45:31,860 -put out and so on and i i feel like our kind of um generation and the people like even older than us - -964 -01:45:31,860 --> 01:45:39,060 -we're we aren't dead old yet but i think we learned a lot by living through the early iterations of the - -965 -01:45:39,060 --> 01:45:44,500 -internet yeah and and sawing the platforms rise and fall and and and again like everyone everyone has the - -966 -01:45:44,500 --> 01:45:48,740 -same story like it's it's it's it's not the first knowledge system that you use you know like it's - -967 -01:45:48,740 --> 01:45:57,540 -probably the tenth and yeah and so i hope that we can explain this properly and like pass this on to - -968 -01:45:58,260 --> 01:46:03,460 -the young guns the early 20 somethings that are building this stuff if i could be so bold as to - -969 -01:46:04,020 --> 01:46:09,380 -give some assigned reading for something i wrote back when i was at the verge you know google glass came - -970 -01:46:09,380 --> 01:46:15,460 -out it really creeped people yeah they called them the glass holes the glass holes yeah and so i - -971 -01:46:16,580 --> 01:46:21,860 -always loved the idea of wearable computing because i grew up reading wired magazine which would profile - -972 -01:46:21,860 --> 01:46:29,140 -like the mit wearable compute lab and stuff and so i ended up writing a piece for the verge about um - -973 -01:46:29,140 --> 01:46:33,300 -wearable computing and the history of wearable computing and it was this idea of - -974 -01:46:33,300 --> 01:46:43,860 -hyper personal compute that we really lost track of and we can't we're we we at least are smart enough - -975 -01:46:43,860 --> 01:46:50,820 -that we don't trust facebook and google with things so we actually can't allow computers to reach this - -976 -01:46:50,820 --> 01:46:58,020 -like level of to even enter up basically yeah we can't use computers how they were used in the personal - -977 -01:46:58,020 --> 01:47:06,580 -computer era because we're so dependent on these really scary foreign aggressive antagonistic - -978 -01:47:06,900 --> 01:47:12,660 -forces yeah we'll fix that too blinded compute will fix that like serial knowledge compute will fix that - -979 -01:47:12,660 --> 01:47:16,980 -i talked with kelly about this that's that's gonna that's gonna be a thing as well and like - -980 -01:47:17,540 --> 01:47:23,780 -that already like it already works not even like in theory it really already works and and so you can do any compute - -981 -01:47:23,780 --> 01:47:29,780 -in a blinded manner where you then then you don't have to trust facebook or google there's nothing they - -982 -01:47:29,780 --> 01:47:36,820 -can gleam from it so it's gonna lead to i think very pure marketplaces of compute and also of storage - -983 -01:47:36,820 --> 01:47:40,580 -and so on and well i think we'll see this integrated in nostril with dbms and all the other things but - -984 -01:47:40,580 --> 01:47:46,660 -it's like it's still a little bit of prompting to do prompting and praying prompting and praying - -985 -01:47:46,660 --> 01:47:52,420 -what we'll have to do to bring all that about absolutely all right that was lovely i'll give - -986 -01:47:52,420 --> 01:48:00,100 -you a hug and then we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna see if we can make it out alive out of this - -987 -01:48:00,100 --> 01:48:08,260 -park all right thanks so much for that that was fantastic so i'll do one more snap before we turn - -988 -01:48:08,260 --> 01:48:13,860 -it off just to make sure in case i i don't know i want to cut something in the middle that's still - -989 -01:48:13,860 --> 01:48:17,620 -beeping okay let's turn it off - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/06 - The Winds of AI - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/06 - The Winds of AI - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index f5d9d1d0..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/06 - The Winds of AI - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,40 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "The Winds of AI" (Episode 06) - -**Context:** A candid discussion on the rise of generative AI (Mid-journey, LLMs), what it means for authenticity online, and how Nostr/Sovereign Engineering can harness—or counterbalance—these winds. - -## Core Themes & Takeaways - -1. **AI Everywhere, Authenticity Scarcity** - • Photorealistic AI images now flood social feeds; most users can't tell. - • Realness becomes a premium—people crave genuine human signals. - -2. **Nostr's Advantage: Verifiable Value & Interaction** - • Sats (zaps) are "really real"; an AI can fake likes but not spend money it doesn't own. - • Nostr conversations still feel human despite bots—proof-of-work (context, sats, relationships) filters noise. - -3. **Tool vs. Replacement Mindset** - • AI as enhanced pencil: augment creativity rather than displace it. - • What matters is the effect on the audience, not whether GPUs or graphite produced the stroke. - -4. **Shipping Experiments Quickly** - • Mid-journey prompts, Nostr bots, and AI-assisted pipelines exemplify Sovereign Engineering's "start ugly" ethos—iterate in public, learn fast. - • Weekly cohort demo cadence meshes with rapid AI prototyping. - -5. **Economics of Realness** - • Direct sats signals can separate signal from AI-generated noise—money is costly to fake. - • Designers should leverage micro-payments and cryptographic identity to authenticate scarcity (time, attention, sats). - -6. **Future Design Questions** - • How to prove "human in the loop" without invasive KYC? - • When does AI-generated content enhance community versus erode trust? - • What new NIPs or client features can surface authentic interactions? - -## Implications for Sovereign Engineering Cohorts - -• Encourage participants to mix AI tooling with human walks & talks—keep the human core. -• Use sats/zaps in projects to anchor authenticity metrics. -• Focus on real-time, local-first prototypes; AI can generate code or art, but cohorts judge on shipped demos. - ---- - -AI will keep blowing harder. By anchoring work in cryptographic identity, direct value exchange, and public iteration, Sovereign Engineering turns the winds of AI into propulsion rather than turbulence. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/06 - The Winds of AI.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/06 - The Winds of AI.srt deleted file mode 100644 index d8167576..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/06 - The Winds of AI.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,8388 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,000 -Good morning. - -2 -00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,000 -How are you doing? - -3 -00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:18,000 -Good. - -4 -00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,000 -Nice to see you brother. - -5 -00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:21,000 -Likewise. - -6 -00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,000 -How are you? - -7 -00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,000 -Jesus Christ. - -8 -00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,000 -The wind is going to be fun. - -9 -00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,000 -Oh, jeez. - -10 -00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:29,000 -It's getting bad. - -11 -00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,000 -It's getting bad. - -12 -00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,000 -It's getting bad. - -13 -00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:32,000 -Oh my God. - -14 -00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:33,000 -Yeah. - -15 -00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,000 -I was looking here listening to you with Paul. - -16 -00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,000 -Yeah. - -17 -00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,000 -And the last hundred meters I could not even hear anything. - -18 -00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,000 -Yeah. - -19 -00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:44,000 -No, it is proper windy. - -20 -00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,000 -I'm not sure how we should do it. - -21 -00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,000 -We're rolling by the way. - -22 -00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,000 -Jesus. - -23 -00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:51,000 -Just so you know. - -24 -00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:52,000 -Oh, wow. - -25 -00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,000 -Okay. - -26 -00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,000 -This is already part of the... - -27 -00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:56,000 -I don't know. - -28 -00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:57,000 -I can... - -29 -00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,000 -The only things I cut is in the beginning and in the end. - -30 -00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,000 -Maybe. - -31 -00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,000 -You know. - -32 -00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,000 -So far I did. - -33 -00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:04,000 -But you're not worrying. - -34 -00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,000 -You said you clicked. - -35 -00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,000 -Oh, wow. - -36 -00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:07,000 -Okay. - -37 -00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,000 -Proper spine, man. - -38 -00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,000 -Yeah. - -39 -00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,000 -So be careful. - -40 -00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,000 -You know, know your spook. - -41 -00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:18,000 -Should we just try to walk and see how it goes? - -42 -00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:19,000 -Yeah. - -43 -00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,000 -And maybe we can find... - -44 -00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,000 -How much can it get? - -45 -00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,000 -Yeah. - -46 -00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,000 -Yeah. - -47 -00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,000 -Famous last words. - -48 -00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,000 -Yeah. - -49 -00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,000 -You know, like the water on the sea is like in the air. - -50 -00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,000 -That's how strong the winds are. - -51 -00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,000 -They're not even... - -52 -00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,000 -The water isn't even in the sea anymore. - -53 -00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,000 -We've been saying with Alana that the sea is going to fly away. - -54 -00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,000 -Yeah. - -55 -00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,000 -And that's how it goes. - -56 -00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,000 -So what do you think about the conversation with Paul? - -57 -00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,000 -I have to walk slowly by the way. - -58 -00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:46,000 -Oh, no. - -59 -00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:47,000 -This is unacceptable. - -60 -00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,000 -I still can't walk. - -61 -00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,000 -I taped my foot and it kind of works. - -62 -00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,000 -Life is suffering. - -63 -00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,000 -Just lean into it. - -64 -00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:57,000 -I can't break you. - -65 -00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,000 -The other one too. - -66 -00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,000 -Then we do the wheelchair. - -67 -00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,000 -You'll get to enlighten and stuff. - -68 -00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,000 -The wheelchair thing. - -69 -00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,000 -That's what we're going to do. - -70 -00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,000 -No, the one with Paul is... - -71 -00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,000 -I mean, I'm like maybe 30, 40 minutes into it. - -72 -00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,000 -But it's really good. - -73 -00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:20,000 -He says one thing at one point about... - -74 -00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:25,000 -If you have like calories for consumption, - -75 -00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,000 -I think that's a fucking amazing idea. - -76 -00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,000 -It is such a beautiful... - -77 -00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,000 -Because it is about the... - -78 -00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,000 -I was thinking about that last night. - -79 -00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,000 -It is about the ratio, right? - -80 -00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,000 -How much do you consume versus how much do you produce? - -81 -00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,000 -How much do you create? - -82 -00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,000 -Also, we don't count these kinds of calories at all. - -83 -00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,000 -Everyone kind of knows that what we are mostly doing online - -84 -00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,000 -is like fast food for the brain. - -85 -00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,000 -Oh, 100%. - -86 -00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,000 -But no one... - -87 -00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,000 -You can't really measure it in some sense. - -88 -00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:56,000 -It's just like... - -89 -00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,000 -But even if you work down to just say time... - -90 -00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,000 -Yeah. - -91 -00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,000 -I mean, it's very broad. - -92 -00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,000 -But it's still directional. - -93 -00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,000 -We do it with... - -94 -00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,000 -That's why the... - -95 -00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,000 -What's it called? - -96 -00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,000 -Like the digital well-being stuff. - -97 -00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,000 -Rescue time. - -98 -00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,000 -And all those kind of things just popping up. - -99 -00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,000 -I mean, that's what we are trying to do now. - -100 -00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,000 -We are trying to break our addictive behaviors in some sense. - -101 -00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,000 -But I'm not sure if it's working well. - -102 -00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,000 -Like most of the time when I tried it, - -103 -00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,000 -I just, you know, like... - -104 -00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,000 -The disabling... - -105 -00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,000 -I get annoyed. - -106 -00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:28,000 -Shut up. - -107 -00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -108 -00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,000 -No, like... - -109 -00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,000 -I need my dopamine. - -110 -00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,000 -I'm not going to rough date. - -111 -00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,000 -Woo! - -112 -00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,000 -Jesus. - -113 -00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,000 -Yeah, it's funny. - -114 -00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,000 -Like the last time we walked in heavy wind, - -115 -00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,000 -it was way worse for us than for the microphones. - -116 -00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,000 -The microphones are incredible at filtering it out. - -117 -00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,000 -Yeah. - -118 -00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,000 -But I basically can't even hear myself talking right now. - -119 -00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,000 -I know, to me the digital well-being crutches - -120 -00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,000 -are kind of like a chastity build. - -121 -00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,000 -You'll just do a blowjob. - -122 -00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,000 -You're wearing a chastity build. - -123 -00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,000 -I'll tell you what we're going to do. - -124 -00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,000 -We're going to try to make it to the tunnel. - -125 -00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,000 -Yeah. - -126 -00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,000 -And then we're going to walk through the tunnel really slow. - -127 -00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,000 -I think that's the plan. - -128 -00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:20,000 -It's going to be... - -129 -00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,000 -It's going to be a tunnel. - -130 -00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,000 -Oh, shit! - -131 -00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,000 -Yeah, the glass broke. - -132 -00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,000 -Oh, stop! - -133 -00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,000 -The wind broke the glass. - -134 -00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,000 -Slow away! - -135 -00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,000 -Goddamn! - -136 -00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,000 -Yeah. - -137 -00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,000 -Wow! - -138 -00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,000 -So it's going to be a tunnel podcast. - -139 -00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,000 -Oh my God! - -140 -00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,000 -Let me... - -141 -00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,000 -Jesus! - -142 -00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,000 -This might be the first one where I cut something out in the middle - -143 -00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,000 -because there's not going to be a lot of talking the next five minutes. - -144 -00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,000 -No, let's see. - -145 -00:04:49,000 --> 00:05:02,000 -I really liked Paul's thinking also about kind of the teleology of products and technology. - -146 -00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,000 -Like, why does this exist and what should we build? - -147 -00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,000 -Not only what can we build, but what should the end speed, you know? - -148 -00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:20,000 -And kind of what we touched upon is that right now, speaking from like an internet platform perspective, - -149 -00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:27,000 -the end is to make the users as addicted as possible, spend as much screen time as possible - -150 -00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:32,000 -to have the most at impressions possible, kind of. - -151 -00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,000 -Yeah, I mean, even I was contemplating on... I was reflecting on this last night, - -152 -00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,000 -but even the structure of the field that we take for granted, - -153 -00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:45,000 -that that is the medium of distribution of content, is a field, right? - -154 -00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -155 -00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:53,000 -And I actually asked Marina last night, what other ideas she could come up with - -156 -00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,000 -that were not a field? - -157 -00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:00,000 -And she literally could not think of a different way of orchestrating data. - -158 -00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,000 -Like it was, oh, categories! - -159 -00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,000 -Okay, and you enter a category, what do you see? - -160 -00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,000 -What do you see? - -161 -00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:10,000 -But even just like in old forums and all kind of picture apps and so on, we had kind of grids a lot. - -162 -00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:11,000 -Yeah, huh? - -163 -00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,000 -And also like in still in the media centers and so on, that are not Netflix, - -164 -00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,000 -you still have like, for example, movie walls, where you're just like in an old VHS shop, - -165 -00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:26,000 -where you just have like an endless wall of movies, where you just see 50 movies at once, for example, - -166 -00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,000 -or like also books and so on. I really like this stuff. - -167 -00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:35,000 -I'm in old school, kind of, you know, like Picasa Gallery kind of type person. - -168 -00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000 -And that's why I tweet that, I think, was also so popular. - -169 -00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,000 -For power users, you know? - -170 -00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,000 -Like you see all the things at once. - -171 -00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,000 -Jesus Christ, look at that! - -172 -00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,000 -What just brought up the bus to flow? - -173 -00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,000 -Ah, the bus stop is flying away. - -174 -00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:50,000 -Holy fuck! - -175 -00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,000 -Yeah, that's not going to end well. - -176 -00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,000 -That is dangerous. - -177 -00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,000 -Damn! - -178 -00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,000 -That's not going to end well. - -179 -00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:56,000 -No! - -180 -00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,000 -It's going to take like, take a video too. - -181 -00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,000 -Let people know what we're talking about. - -182 -00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,000 -Who's going to be on the bus stop, do you think? - -183 -00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,000 -Oh my fucking Lord Jesus! - -184 -00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,000 -This is what the state gets you! - -185 -00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:12,000 -It just shows you that nature is... - -186 -00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,000 -Oh my Lord, and that's closed off. - -187 -00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,000 -Okay. - -188 -00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,000 -Oh! - -189 -00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,000 -Great. - -190 -00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,000 -Good. - -191 -00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,000 -So we're going to turn it around. - -192 -00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,000 -Or should we go up here? - -193 -00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,000 -Maybe there's better? - -194 -00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,000 -And then we're just going to get the street or something? - -195 -00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,000 -Yeah. - -196 -00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,000 -Let's see. - -197 -00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,000 -Definitely now. - -198 -00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,000 -Oh, wow. - -199 -00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,000 -Okay. - -200 -00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,000 -No, I can see why it's closed off. - -201 -00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,000 -It's like the waves are completely insane. - -202 -00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,000 -Oh, they're going into the walk! - -203 -00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,000 -Holy shit! - -204 -00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,000 -They're going over there. - -205 -00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,000 -Like everything. - -206 -00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,000 -Oh, look at that! - -207 -00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,000 -Look at that! - -208 -00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,000 -That's insane. - -209 -00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,000 -Nah, these are absolutely crazy. - -210 -00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,000 -Yeah. - -211 -00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,000 -No. - -212 -00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,000 -But I think we are going to bring it back on an underside, - -213 -00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,000 -like the different kind of views. - -214 -00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:50,000 -We already see it. - -215 -00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,000 -Like we have clients that look like IRC, for example. - -216 -00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,000 -Yeah. - -217 -00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,000 -And IRC is very different in terms of display, because it's the same thing. - -218 -00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,000 -It's a chat. - -219 -00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:04,000 -Like it's very similar, kind of similar to a Twitter feed, in some sense. - -220 -00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,000 -Like it's not too different, but it's very different visually. - -221 -00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,000 -Well, I think the fact that you can get within the viewport, - -222 -00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:18,000 -you can get a lot more than one, maybe one and a half post. - -223 -00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,000 -Yeah. - -224 -00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,000 -Because you know, like, eating is a slow machine in terms of the remote posters. - -225 -00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:28,000 -That's to me reading, I read Hooked the book. - -226 -00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,000 -Way, way, way before Noster. - -227 -00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,000 -I think before I got into Bitcoin, probably. - -228 -00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:40,000 -And I was in that world, like in the indie hackers, building your SaaS and whatnot. - -229 -00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,000 -And they were going to read the book and say, - -230 -00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,000 -but they are proposing doing this. - -231 -00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,000 -They are not just analyzing how horrible this is. - -232 -00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,000 -They are like, oh, how do you do it? - -233 -00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,000 -How do you do it? - -234 -00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,000 -Everybody in Silicon Ball is thinking this way. - -235 -00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,000 -Yeah. - -236 -00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,000 -How do we get the most? - -237 -00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:03,000 -Yeah, because there's almost like no other, there's no other model, no other monetization model. - -238 -00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:08,000 -You have to play the game in some sense of, you know, like advertisement in some sense. - -239 -00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,000 -There's very few people, and we keep coming back to 37 signal, and David Heil and my Hansen. - -240 -00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,000 -He's the only, one of the very few people, big people, is outspoken about it, and he's like, - -241 -00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,000 -no, we're not going to play this game, we're just going to charge our users' periods. - -242 -00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,000 -And the products also, they look very differently. - -243 -00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000 -Look and feel differently. - -244 -00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,000 -And it's way more long-lived, basically. - -245 -00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,000 -And even the landing pages that they produce, they're like a blog post. - -246 -00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,000 -They're like these flashy parallax on eBay. - -247 -00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,000 -They don't look like a shit coin landing page. - -248 -00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,000 -Yeah, we're free. - -249 -00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,000 -Why am I a shit coin? - -250 -00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:50,000 -But yeah, so what did you come up with alternative stuff, like how it could look like, for example? - -251 -00:09:50,000 --> 00:10:03,400 -To me, the one where, to me, it comes all about, the feed structure is optimized for the - -252 -00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:12,400 -intermittent reward, and for maximizing the amount of consumption. - -253 -00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,400 -Which is kind of funny, because a field is... - -254 -00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:16,400 -Maximizes calories. - -255 -00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,400 -Maximizes calorie intake. - -256 -00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:26,400 -And then on top of that, we have LLMs that are lossy compression algorithms to make sense of the noise. - -257 -00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:31,400 -It's kind of interesting that all these two things play together. - -258 -00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:36,400 -I managed, finally, to get my, you wouldn't set up a car crash, a talk out. - -259 -00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:37,400 -Yeah. - -260 -00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,400 -Like I wanted to push this out for like months, and I could never sit down and re-record it properly and so on. - -261 -00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:47,400 -So I just basically decided to send it to the guys, and Yolo did it out there. - -262 -00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,400 -Which I'm very happy about. - -263 -00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,400 -I listened to you watch the last night. - -264 -00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,400 -I mean, you heard it before. - -265 -00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:53,400 -Yeah, I heard it before. - -266 -00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,400 -So you know kind of what it's about. - -267 -00:10:55,400 --> 00:11:00,400 -But one thing that John Dron picked up on, and that I kind of want to emphasize, - -268 -00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,400 -is like the current architecture of all our systems. - -269 -00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:10,400 -They all cater, like the fast food industry, basically. - -270 -00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,400 -It doesn't matter if it's food or information. - -271 -00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:14,400 -Hey, here it's nice. - -272 -00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:15,400 -What's this? - -273 -00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:16,400 -What happened here? - -274 -00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:17,400 -There's no wind. - -275 -00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:23,400 -So any kind of fast food industry caters to the lowest common denominator. - -276 -00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:28,400 -And so it caters kind of to your lowest self in some sense. - -277 -00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,400 -And he really liked that kind of point. - -278 -00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,400 -The internet is not catering to our highest selves. - -279 -00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,400 -Absolutely, everyone knows it. - -280 -00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,400 -It's fast food information mostly. - -281 -00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,400 -I mean, the stuff still exists, but you really have to dig for it. - -282 -00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:45,400 -Like the internet is amazing. - -283 -00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,400 -You can learn anything, you can find anything. - -284 -00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,400 -There's amazing YouTube videos, for example. - -285 -00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:55,400 -And there's even like niche communities that help you to find this amazing stuff. - -286 -00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,400 -But there are no algorithms for it. - -287 -00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:03,400 -I know of no website, where it's like here is in-depth awesome YouTube content, - -288 -00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:08,400 -by awesome creators that I find interesting, that my highest self finds interesting, - -289 -00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,400 -for example, you know, about whatever, like physics, philosophy, computer science, - -290 -00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,400 -I don't know, like all those kind of things. - -291 -00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:15,400 -And we have this wealth of knowledge. - -292 -00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,400 -We have like from the top universities, like all the open lectures and so on. - -293 -00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,400 -They don't appear in YouTube once. - -294 -00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:27,400 -But if you find these kind of gems, you'll have comments where it's like amazing. - -295 -00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,400 -And it's also like YouTube removed the downvote button, for example, you know. - -296 -00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,400 -And like they removed all these metrics that the users actually found useful. - -297 -00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:42,400 -Because if I see a video that has like a million views and it has like five downvotes, - -298 -00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,400 -I know it's exceptional. - -299 -00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,400 -I know it's one of the best videos in the world, basically. - -300 -00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,400 -Because that's insanely unusual. - -301 -00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:50,400 -And now you don't see this. - -302 -00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:51,400 -You don't even see this stuff anymore. - -303 -00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,400 -Because it's like, no, it just removed it. - -304 -00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:58,400 -I mean, there's like whole papers around this where it went from, you know, like five star rating, - -305 -00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,400 -to thump up, thump down. - -306 -00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,400 -And then we went to only thump up. - -307 -00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,400 -And now like it's only view counts, basically. - -308 -00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:10,400 -That's the thesis that I have in the video, where it's just like, it's basically the whole, - -309 -00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,400 -everything we have gets flattened down to like more fast food, more fast food, more fast food. - -310 -00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,400 -That's why all the fucking every platform has TikTok clips now. - -311 -00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:19,400 -YouTube as well. - -312 -00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,400 -YouTube shorts and all this kind of bullshit. - -313 -00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,400 -And kind of everyone kind of hates it in some sense. - -314 -00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:30,400 -But everyone also uses it and just like, again, like fast food, like McDonald's. - -315 -00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:31,400 -But yes, sir. - -316 -00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:32,400 -And ice cream is awesome. - -317 -00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:33,400 -Sure, sure. - -318 -00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,400 -We keep walking because now we've got windy here anyway. - -319 -00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,400 -So we might as well. - -320 -00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:38,400 -I enjoy standing. - -321 -00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:39,400 -It hurts less than walking. - -322 -00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:40,400 -Oh, yeah. - -323 -00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:41,400 -We're just fine. - -324 -00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:42,400 -That's fine. - -325 -00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:43,400 -Let's see how it goes. - -326 -00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,400 -But I'm not sure where we should. - -327 -00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,400 -Let's explore this area. - -328 -00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,400 -I was watching, you know, Janja Dambred? - -329 -00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:55,400 -No. - -330 -00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:56,400 -Watch her. - -331 -00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:57,400 -It's fucking insane. - -332 -00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,400 -Well, my algorithm never kind of, you know, it's like, I'm not to blame. - -333 -00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:11,400 -So she's a climber, but it's probably the delta between the number one being Janja and number two. - -334 -00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,400 -It's the largest delta on any sport. - -335 -00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,400 -It is absolutely insane. - -336 -00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:23,400 -But anyway, we were watching Janja with Alana and just the whole family. - -337 -00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:29,400 -And we watched like a lead competition. - -338 -00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,400 -And, you know, it's a lead competition. - -339 -00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,400 -There was some easier climber climbing, some harder climbing. - -340 -00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,400 -So the video took like, you know, four minutes. - -341 -00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,400 -And then the next video we watched was a short. - -342 -00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:49,400 -Which was like ten seconds of the incredibly hard part of the climb. - -343 -00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:55,400 -And the whole family was like, oh, wow, that's so cool because he went directly to the meeting. - -344 -00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:56,400 -Yeah, yeah. - -345 -00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:57,400 -Sure. - -346 -00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:58,400 -Sure. - -347 -00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,400 -I mean, like, if the stuff wouldn't be kind of useful and wouldn't be working, it wouldn't be around. - -348 -00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,400 -Like, ten percent fast food, you know. - -349 -00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,400 -It's like also, I think, sailor of all people made this point. - -350 -00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,400 -It's like, how did our food degrade and those kind of things? - -351 -00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:19,400 -Like, if you need to feed an old Roman army, like, you can't do it on, like, grass-fed beef, for example. - -352 -00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:20,400 -Like, you can't. - -353 -00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,400 -It's just, like, all this stuff has its kind of use. - -354 -00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:30,400 -But I feel like we've been, on the internet side, we've been sleepwalking into this. - -355 -00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:31,400 -Oh, 100%. - -356 -00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:36,400 -It's, it's, it's, we've been so unaware of what's happening to us. - -357 -00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,400 -Like, like, completely, globally, as a, as a society. - -358 -00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:47,400 -And that's why I like to personify the internet in the sense of, because I don't think there is too much evil at work here. - -359 -00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,400 -It's basically like the internet had to monetize itself. - -360 -00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:57,400 -And it had to use, it had to use some monetary proxy because it didn't have native money. - -361 -00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,400 -Hey, what's the, it was the path of least resistance? - -362 -00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:00,400 -Yeah. - -363 -00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:01,400 -Yeah. - -364 -00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:02,400 -Yeah. - -365 -00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,400 -And, and so, I, I, I always try to be careful, like, not to. - -366 -00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,400 -Like, everyone did it wrong. - -367 -00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,400 -And it's like, you know, like, ah, the bad companies, it's just like, on the bit, it's a lot. - -368 -00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:13,400 -All the banks are bad. - -369 -00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:14,400 -No, my banks are actually very useful. - -370 -00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:22,400 -And it's, it's, but it's also, once you get to a certain site, it's very hard to, you know, it's very hard to not turn evil. - -371 -00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:23,400 -I mean, look at Google. - -372 -00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,400 -Like, don't be evil because they're motto. - -373 -00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:26,400 -They had to remove it. - -374 -00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,400 -Well, it got too big. - -375 -00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,400 -It's like, don't be, unless like, read the fine print. - -376 -00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,400 -Unless you're working with military contractors. - -377 -00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:35,400 -Then maybe. - -378 -00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:43,400 -But I, I really like what's happening now on an ostracide with the, the exploration of other possibilities. - -379 -00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:52,400 -Like, just last week we saw, you know, like the 2D game where you log in with your MPAP, you're placed on the map and you can walk around. - -380 -00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,400 -And you just can't explore the Nosterverse in like a 2D bird's-eye universe. - -381 -00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:57,400 -It's very different. - -382 -00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:58,400 -Oh, 100%. - -383 -00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,400 -100%. - -384 -00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:05,400 -What I would love to have, by the way, just to, to let the universe know, maybe someone actually sits down and vibe-coated. - -385 -00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,400 -It's positional audio in such a world. - -386 -00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:08,400 -Just like in VR. - -387 -00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,400 -Where it just can clump together and talk to people. - -388 -00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,400 -And it stuff fades in and out depending on, on your position. - -389 -00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,400 -And you can go into a room and talk with five people there. - -390 -00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,400 -And you can just, you know, go into a park and talk with some other people there. - -391 -00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,400 -And that would be a very different experience than- - -392 -00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:24,400 -Which is literally what we're doing right now. - -393 -00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:25,400 -We're doing that. - -394 -00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:26,400 -Or organically we're doing that. - -395 -00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,400 -I mean, it's, it's, I was surprised of how well it works in VR. - -396 -00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,400 -Like when COVID hits, there were all these VR meetups in between. - -397 -00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,400 -And I participated in this. - -398 -00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:36,400 -And it's like, it's awesome. - -399 -00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,400 -Like you can watch a talk. - -400 -00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,400 -And then there's like 100 people on the server. - -401 -00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,400 -And like organically small groups form. - -402 -00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,400 -Where it's just like you talk about skiing, you talk about other stuff. - -403 -00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,400 -And I really, really liked it. - -404 -00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,400 -But you don't need the 3D world for this. - -405 -00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:55,400 -Like all that's kind of, I don't care about the 3D like jumping and running around and so on. - -406 -00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,400 -It's, you just have to be able to move around. - -407 -00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,400 -So I think this, it could be done in a really simple way. - -408 -00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,400 -You want to turn around because now it goes uphill. - -409 -00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:04,400 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -410 -00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:05,400 -It's all uphill from here. - -411 -00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,400 -And now it's all downhill from here actually now. - -412 -00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,400 -But yeah, I hope we can explore all of this some more. - -413 -00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,400 -Like what would you like to see in terms of different presentation styles and those kind of things? - -414 -00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:24,400 -To me, this idea, you know, I was a very, very big fan of, on a Sunday. - -415 -00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,400 -Aakinox project. - -416 -00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,400 -To me, this idea of geolocated in some way. - -417 -00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,400 -It doesn't need to be like all fancy. - -418 -00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,400 -Like the Aakinox thing was doing the, they can't get in there. - -419 -00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,400 -They probably weren't, but also doing the coordinate based on hashes and stuff like that. - -420 -00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:42,400 -Yeah. - -421 -00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,400 -It's fun and it's cool. - -422 -00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:44,400 -And I like it. - -423 -00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:53,400 -It doesn't even need to be arranged in that way for the note ops, for the root events. - -424 -00:18:53,400 --> 00:19:00,400 -But to me, that one feels like a very human approach, like a very natural approach. - -425 -00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:13,400 -I think whatever shape it takes, the thing is about how much information can you garner in one view. - -426 -00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,400 -Yeah. - -427 -00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,400 -You know, like you open Facebook or Twitter. - -428 -00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,400 -How much useful information? - -429 -00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,400 -No. - -430 -00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:26,400 -I don't think, because just open any other client and switch to quote unquote global. - -431 -00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:27,400 -No, no, no. - -432 -00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:28,400 -I agree with that. - -433 -00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:36,400 -But even a step before that, just how you arrange information on the screen, you open Twitter, - -434 -00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,400 -you open Facebook or you open Instagram and you see one post. - -435 -00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,400 -Your entire screen is a slow machine. - -436 -00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,400 -You go to the TikTok, same thing. - -437 -00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,400 -Yeah. - -438 -00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,400 -So you keep swiping until you find something that is really interesting to you. - -439 -00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,400 -But if you could, and I think... - -440 -00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,400 -If you would see more, you would close the app immediately. - -441 -00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,400 -That's the thing. - -442 -00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,400 -That is the thing, right? - -443 -00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:59,400 -And that goes back to what we referenced a few times. - -444 -00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,400 -Freedom Tech also implies Freedom From Tech. - -445 -00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:03,400 -Yeah. - -446 -00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,400 -We don't want people to get hooked to their products. - -447 -00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:06,400 -Yeah. - -448 -00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,400 -Which I think, this is a bit of attention and I think something to explore. - -449 -00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,400 -You know, it's all tangents all the way down. - -450 -00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,400 -Don't be afraid of tangents. - -451 -00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,400 -Embrace the tangents. - -452 -00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,400 -No, because I keep having these... - -453 -00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,400 -And I feel that these are discussion among many people. - -454 -00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:32,400 -Where is the line in between you can make the most user respecting product? - -455 -00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:38,400 -It's so unappealing that you open it once. - -456 -00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,400 -You get value and then you close it and then you sell the other never moved back. - -457 -00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:43,400 -Yeah. - -458 -00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:44,400 -Yeah. - -459 -00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,400 -But we have these kind of tools and things in real life, right? - -460 -00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,400 -Where it's like, it's the thing that you have and you need to have, but you use it like once a year. - -461 -00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:53,400 -Right. - -462 -00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,400 -Like, whatever. - -463 -00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,400 -I can't think of an example on the top of my head, but it's like something that you really love. - -464 -00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,400 -Or even like a book that you really love. - -465 -00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,400 -Those kind of things are a very specialized tool. - -466 -00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,400 -Like an insanely specialized tool, let's say your car breaks down once a year. - -467 -00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,400 -And you need this particular tool. - -468 -00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:12,400 -But that's a fantastic tool. - -469 -00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:13,400 -Yeah. - -470 -00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:14,400 -For example. - -471 -00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:15,400 -Yeah. - -472 -00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:16,400 -For example. - -473 -00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:17,400 -It's like you don't... - -474 -00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,400 -You know, daily active users for chopper cables will be a terrible metric. - -475 -00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:21,400 -Right? - -476 -00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,400 -So, let's unzip this product. - -477 -00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:25,400 -It's not working. - -478 -00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,400 -But I will char right is too high. - -479 -00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,400 -Yeah. - -480 -00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:31,400 -Exactly. - -481 -00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,400 -So, so there's this stuff that you actually don't want to use, - -482 -00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,400 -in the case you need it, like it has to be there and all those kind of things. - -483 -00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:48,400 -So, for example, there are things that you can use on legacy web, on capture web, whatever. - -484 -00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:49,400 -Twitter. - -485 -00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,400 -And then there are products like, say, gossip. - -486 -00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:53,400 -Right? - -487 -00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:54,400 -Yeah. - -488 -00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,400 -They're kind of in the same category of what the thing is, right? - -489 -00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:58,400 -Yeah. - -490 -00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,400 -Clearly more useful respecting than Twitter. - -491 -00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:02,400 -Yeah. - -492 -00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,400 -At the same time, it's less addictive than Twitter, right? - -493 -00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,400 -I mean, that's kind of the point. - -494 -00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,400 -Yeah. - -495 -00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:08,400 -Yeah. - -496 -00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,400 -Where is... - -497 -00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:14,400 -I actually once started recording an audio to you, and then I never said that. - -498 -00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:15,400 -Oh, man. - -499 -00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,400 -Because I said, I thought... - -500 -00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,400 -You never listened to me at all. - -501 -00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,400 -Like, the secret to life is descended. - -502 -00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:21,400 -I told you. - -503 -00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:22,400 -I told you a million. - -504 -00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,400 -You also told me that you hate us. - -505 -00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,400 -That's true. - -506 -00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:26,400 -That's true. - -507 -00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,400 -That's true. - -508 -00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:29,400 -Oh, she's just... - -509 -00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,400 -There's no solution to power. - -510 -00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:32,400 -This is rain. - -511 -00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,400 -I think it's from the sea. - -512 -00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,400 -Yeah, yeah. - -513 -00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:35,400 -We're getting hit... - -514 -00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:36,400 -We're getting hit by flying. - -515 -00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:37,400 -How far are we? - -516 -00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:38,400 -We're like... - -517 -00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,400 -Like, fuck. - -518 -00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,400 -At least 500 meters, maybe a kilometer. - -519 -00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:42,400 -Shall we turn around? - -520 -00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,400 -Oh, you want to keep going this way? - -521 -00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,400 -Let's keep going this way. - -522 -00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:46,400 -All right. - -523 -00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,400 -Let's see what happens. - -524 -00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,400 -Let's see if the bus service, so... - -525 -00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,400 -Let's embrace it. - -526 -00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,400 -Let's see if the bus... - -527 -00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,400 -We're going to get hit by the fucking flying bus. - -528 -00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,400 -The bus should relate to something. - -529 -00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,400 -Yeah. - -530 -00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:56,400 -That's... - -531 -00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,400 -So... - -532 -00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,400 -My point is, or the tension that I see is... - -533 -00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,400 -You could make gossip even more used to respecting, right? - -534 -00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,400 -You could make gossip not... - -535 -00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,400 -Not show you new information. - -536 -00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,400 -Like, show you maybe new information every six hours. - -537 -00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,400 -Like, it just buffers everything. - -538 -00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,400 -We had this with RSS feeders and those kind of things, right? - -539 -00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,400 -Where basically these products emerged that would summarize what happened this week - -540 -00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,400 -and send you one email on Friday. - -541 -00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:28,400 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -542 -00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:29,400 -Those kind of things. - -543 -00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,400 -Because people were scrolling their RSS feeders, like, you know, - -544 -00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,400 -basically same thing, like, free Twitter insanity and all those kind of things. - -545 -00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:37,400 -Like, free social feeds. - -546 -00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:42,400 -We had this problem already and people built products that were actually quite successful, I think. - -547 -00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,400 -Yeah, you know the company in mail brew? - -548 -00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,400 -Yes. - -549 -00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,400 -I know, I used it as well. - -550 -00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:47,400 -Oh, really? - -551 -00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:48,400 -Same idea. - -552 -00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,400 -Yeah. - -553 -00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:50,400 -It's... - -554 -00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,400 -But again, like, I use it. - -555 -00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,400 -I don't use it anymore, right? - -556 -00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,400 -For me, for me, that thing is now an ostrich. - -557 -00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:57,400 -Noster is still small enough. - -558 -00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:58,400 -Yeah, right. - -559 -00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,400 -High signal enough that it's like... - -560 -00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,400 -I'm actually not an ostrich that much, like, compared to the Twitter days, for example. - -561 -00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:05,400 -Twitter was insane. - -562 -00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,400 -Like, I was like, you know, clocking in, like, I don't know, like, six to eight hours a day. - -563 -00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:11,400 -Like, it's... - -564 -00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,400 -It didn't feel like it was a full-time job. - -565 -00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,400 -But it's, you know, like, an hour in the morning, like, three hours a night, - -566 -00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:22,400 -a little bit in between and just, you know, like, the side-by scrolling. - -567 -00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,400 -Like, you're actually doing something else, but you're also kind of on Twitter and keeping an eye on it, those kind of things. - -568 -00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:27,400 -Completely insane. - -569 -00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,400 -Well, an ostrich now is very different. - -570 -00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,400 -Just because also there's less activity and so on. - -571 -00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,400 -But also, it's way more high signal. - -572 -00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:41,400 -And what I think is super interesting is, like, up until now, like, I'm sure this will come at some point. - -573 -00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,400 -But, like, engagement bait just doesn't work. - -574 -00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,400 -Yeah. - -575 -00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:50,400 -Just the usual things that would get you drawn into Twitter, they don't work on ostrich for some reason. - -576 -00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,400 -And up until this point, they don't really exist. - -577 -00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,400 -So, I think that's worth pointing out. - -578 -00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,400 -So, we're hitting the red zone now. - -579 -00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,400 -Let's avoid the bust of... - -580 -00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,400 -Let's not, let's maybe not die. - -581 -00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:07,400 -Wow. - -582 -00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:08,400 -Jesus. - -583 -00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,400 -Oh, my Lord. - -584 -00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,400 -So, if this thing starts flying, that's gonna be so dangerous. - -585 -00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,400 -Now it's gonna be, uh... - -586 -00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,400 -That's gonna be so bad. - -587 -00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,400 -Oh, you don't kill your knife. - -588 -00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,400 -Very easily. - -589 -00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,400 -So, let's stay away a little bit. - -590 -00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,400 -I don't even follow Jesus. - -591 -00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,400 -I don't even got the cafeteria. - -592 -00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,400 -By a bust up. - -593 -00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,400 -Oh, my Lord. - -594 -00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,400 -They weren't talking about it, like, ten seconds before it happened. - -595 -00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,400 -It's all on tape. - -596 -00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,400 -It's all recorded on my Lord. - -597 -00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,400 -That's an awesome lingo, by the way. - -598 -00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:46,400 -It's on tape. - -599 -00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,400 -Yeah. - -600 -00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,400 -It's awesome, right? - -601 -00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,400 -Like, it came up when people gave me shit for calling us to post tweets, still. - -602 -00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,400 -Because a short post to me will always kind of be a tweet in my brain. - -603 -00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,400 -It's such a good noun. - -604 -00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:00,400 -Yeah. - -605 -00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:01,400 -It's been saying that the... - -606 -00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:02,400 -And it's also a verb, you know? - -607 -00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:03,400 -So, I can tweet, though. - -608 -00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,400 -I tweet on Oscar, and I saw a tweet on Oscar. - -609 -00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:06,400 -Basically, whatever. - -610 -00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,400 -But then, like, the whole discussion started around all this stuff. - -611 -00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,400 -And some of what happens, like, wow, you say, well, it's on tape, but we don't have tapes. - -612 -00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:15,400 -No, what tape? - -613 -00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,400 -Like, where's the tape? - -614 -00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,400 -That's just how language works, I guess. - -615 -00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,400 -But, yeah, okay. - -616 -00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,400 -We survived the bus stop, so that's good. - -617 -00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,400 -I mean, there's still no flood here. - -618 -00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:25,400 -Oh, yeah. - -619 -00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,400 -The altars are decreasing. - -620 -00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:28,400 -Rapidly decreasing. - -621 -00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,400 -Jesus Christ. - -622 -00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,400 -There is no way anyone can listen to this. - -623 -00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,400 -I think the wind isn't that bad. - -624 -00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,400 -I think our conversation is just really bad. - -625 -00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:38,400 -I don't know in the sense. - -626 -00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,400 -Mostly talking about the wind. - -627 -00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,400 -It's a wind podcast now. - -628 -00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,400 -We're facing an awesome wind. - -629 -00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,400 -We didn't want to do a podcast. - -630 -00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:47,400 -We just wanted to have dialogues. - -631 -00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,400 -And we wanted to talk about Nasser and the future of the internet. - -632 -00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,400 -And now, it's mostly about wind and flying water. - -633 -00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,400 -It's the best podcast in the world about Blossom and wind. - -634 -00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:57,400 -Yeah. - -635 -00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,400 -Windy Blossom. - -636 -00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,400 -You saw Nasser Build launch their Blossom. - -637 -00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:05,400 -Oh, yeah, yeah. - -638 -00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,400 -They made some tweaks, some privacy tweaks. - -639 -00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:08,400 -Oh, yeah. - -640 -00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,400 -Yeah, I like it. - -641 -00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,400 -Yeah. - -642 -00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:16,400 -And all the day that they went ahead kind of full speed and launched it now. - -643 -00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,400 -Yeah. - -644 -00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:25,400 -It's Nip96, which is like the opposite of or like the what we used for media before. - -645 -00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,400 -It's such a necessarily complex spec. - -646 -00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:29,400 -Yeah. - -647 -00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:35,400 -Like you first need to get an endpoint that tells you what is the word to upload. - -648 -00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,400 -Like what is the URL to upload. - -649 -00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,400 -Like conventional or configuration. - -650 -00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:40,400 -Yeah. - -651 -00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,400 -Yeah. - -652 -00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,400 -Yeah. - -653 -00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,400 -Oh, I'll complete a little string of thought. - -654 -00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,400 -That's fine. - -655 -00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:49,400 -That's fine. - -656 -00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,400 -It clears out your brain. - -657 -00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:51,400 -That really works. - -658 -00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,400 -Oh, let's stay here for a second. - -659 -00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:53,400 -Oh, that's nice. - -660 -00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:54,400 -Oh, great. - -661 -00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,400 -It's a corner and it's, it's, it's, it's bearable. - -662 -00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:00,400 -Yeah. - -663 -00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:06,400 -I think the, the, the issue with all this stuff is it's so hard to, - -664 -00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:14,400 -undo the last 20 years of cognitive programming that we went through. - -665 -00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,400 -Like also on the, for example, like Boston media up outside. - -666 -00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,400 -It's like the thing has like one URL. - -667 -00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:20,400 -Mm-hmm. - -668 -00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:25,400 -So our, all our paradigms work in the way that you fetch it from this URL. - -669 -00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:26,400 -Right. - -670 -00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,400 -And if the URL goes bad, it 404 says it. - -671 -00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:29,400 -It's done. - -672 -00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,400 -All right. - -673 -00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,400 -So, so the, the one comparison that we have is like with books. - -674 -00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,400 -A book has an ISBN. - -675 -00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,400 -Which is very different. - -676 -00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,400 -It's not a cryptographic identifier, but it's like, it's not like the Amazon.com link goes - -677 -00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,400 -down that points to the book and the book goes away. - -678 -00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,400 -No, we're still talking about this book and you can still reference the book and so on. - -679 -00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:55,400 -And so, but it's very hard to move to this world and to, to kind of unlearn everything - -680 -00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,400 -you learned from like software architecture and how things are done and, and client server - -681 -00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,400 -relationships and all this kind of stuff. - -682 -00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:08,400 -I think even what the goals of what you are building towards are. - -683 -00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,400 -Because every single SaaS and every single piece of software that has been built in the - -684 -00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,400 -past, whatever, 30 years has been daily activities. - -685 -00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:17,400 -Yeah. - -686 -00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,400 -And they want to lock you in. - -687 -00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:20,400 -Yeah, of course. - -688 -00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,400 -They have to lock you in to make money basically. - -689 -00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,400 -And as a user, basically, what, what you want to do, like we discussed this in the context - -690 -00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,400 -of highlighter and those kind of things. - -691 -00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,400 -I want to leave margin notes on this book. - -692 -00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,400 -I don't care where it's hosted. - -693 -00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:33,400 -I don't care where the content comes from. - -694 -00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,400 -I really don't care. - -695 -00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,400 -And that's kind of the, the, the noster native ways. - -696 -00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,400 -Like I don't care where the content comes from. - -697 -00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:40,400 -Yeah. - -698 -00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:41,400 -That's the whole point. - -699 -00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:42,400 -That is the whole point. - -700 -00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,400 -And, and it's very powerful if you do this for more things than just like short text - -701 -00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:46,400 -notes. - -702 -00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,400 -And like, well, it's, I want to highlight this passage in this article. - -703 -00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,400 -I don't even care where the article is hosted. - -704 -00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:57,400 -I also don't care if it's the article that was, you know, that still had the typo in - -705 -00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:58,400 -it. - -706 -00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,400 -Or if it's the article where the typo was fixed, the highlight should still be there. - -707 -00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,400 -But it opens up this whole new problem space, which is really, really hard because it's - -708 -00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,400 -like, it's almost like a, like a biological genius of like an article. - -709 -00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,400 -Like how much can an article change until it gets a new identifier, for example. - -710 -00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,400 -You know, it's like, it's for a tweet. - -711 -00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:16,400 -That's very obvious. - -712 -00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,400 -If you, if you have a tweet, that's like three words and it changed two words. - -713 -00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,400 -It's a new tweet. - -714 -00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,400 -Right. - -715 -00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,400 -It's. - -716 -00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,400 -So I know there is a, there is a, where do you run a line between fixing typos and a little - -717 -00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,400 -editing or like, it's a new thing. - -718 -00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,400 -And so, and so, and so, so, so those are. - -719 -00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,400 -I, I know means trivial problems. - -720 -00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:39,400 -I, I like, uh, noster solves that where we don't have edits on most things. - -721 -00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,400 -The things we don't have edits except for. - -722 -00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,400 -Exactly. - -723 -00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,400 -Well, let's not talk about it. - -724 -00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,400 -But, but the things that replaceable events, the events that you can modify, when you - -725 -00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,400 -react, when you do so, when you comment or something, you, you link to the, the - -726 -00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,400 -the, the replaceable address. - -727 -00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,400 -But you also link to the specific ID of the hash that you saw. - -728 -00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,400 -And if it changes, you're still referring to the previous one. - -729 -00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,400 -Someone can still say, okay, what's the new version? - -730 -00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:08,400 -Yeah. - -731 -00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,400 -And they can see it. - -732 -00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:10,400 -Yeah. - -733 -00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,400 -But you, you know that you were talking about this other thing. - -734 -00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:13,400 -Yeah. - -735 -00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:14,400 -But then, but then stuff becomes really hard. - -736 -00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,400 -And it's like, it's like, like, the edit more are in full swing still. - -737 -00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:22,400 -It's, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, if you have one purpose breaks, everyone's feet, if they're - -738 -00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,400 -using amethyst, because he will do like 100 edits automatically on all of his posts. - -739 -00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,400 -But, but, but it's, it's, and we talked about this, uh, in the past, it's like, you basically - -740 -00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,400 -to, to have data consistency, which you can't have an author. - -741 -00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,400 -Like if you, if you, what you're, what you're trying to do is you try to chain all the - -742 -00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:38,400 -edits together. - -743 -00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,400 -Sounds familiar. - -744 -00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,400 -Like a chain of things. - -745 -00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,400 -You know, like what if one link is missing? - -746 -00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,400 -That it's kind of, it's really bad for you. - -747 -00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:51,400 -So you have to find, to, you have to build a system where all everything that is part of - -748 -00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,400 -the system sticks around forever. - -749 -00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,400 -Otherwise stuff is just broken in some sense. - -750 -00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,400 -And that's really, really hard to do. - -751 -00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,400 -That's like, it's, because you're going to lose data and stuff. - -752 -00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,400 -And, and, like, in, in a, in a decentralized network world, it's like, I might not have - -753 -00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,400 -the event, the, the previous one. - -754 -00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:07,400 -I might have only the newest one. - -755 -00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,400 -And you have, like, grace conditions, all those kind of things. - -756 -00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,400 -And, and so, yeah. - -757 -00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:17,400 -And I told you that, uh, the, one of the feedbacks that I got when I published NIP 60, the, the - -758 -00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,400 -other thing that I got was, um, how about you do a chain of events that reflect the - -759 -00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,400 -state? - -760 -00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:23,400 -Yeah. - -761 -00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,400 -But you cannot have the guarantee that you're going to have the whole chain. - -762 -00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,400 -Yeah. - -763 -00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,400 -You, I mean, you have the guarantee that you will not have it. - -764 -00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,400 -Be okay with different balances in your pocket. - -765 -00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:31,400 -Exactly. - -766 -00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:32,400 -It's like, oh my God. - -767 -00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:33,400 -I'm missing 10 sets. - -768 -00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:34,400 -Yeah. - -769 -00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:35,400 -Yeah. - -770 -00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,400 -But, but it's, it's also like you look into your purse, you know, let's pretend we're women - -771 -00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:39,400 -and we have purses. - -772 -00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,400 -You look in and it's like, ah, I have like, you know, 12 bucks or whatever. - -773 -00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,400 -Next time you look, maybe it's 14. - -774 -00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,400 -It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's very real. - -775 -00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,400 -So that's how, it's how stuff works. - -776 -00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,400 -It's inflation. - -777 -00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:50,400 -Yeah. - -778 -00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,400 -You have 14 bucks, but it buys only five bucks worth of goods. - -779 -00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:54,400 -That's, that's. - -780 -00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,400 -Maybe we should build that in. - -781 -00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:57,400 -Okay. - -782 -00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,400 -Let's try, let's try to walk somewhere still a little bit. - -783 -00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,400 -But let's just walk up and down here. - -784 -00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,400 -That's, I think the most, the most sane area in terms of wind. - -785 -00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:14,400 -So let's just do like 21 rings around the rosy and see where we go with that. - -786 -00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,400 -But yeah, it's, but the, the, the thing I wanted to point out with kind of the, the edits - -787 -00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,400 -and when is something a new thing is like, it's, it sounds like such a trivial problem. - -788 -00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:26,400 -Oh, it sounds super horrible. - -789 -00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,400 -But it's just like, let's, let's, in terms of the highlights, for example, or also the margin - -790 -00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,400 -notes, you know, it's like, you can't use just simple position, like highlight from this - -791 -00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:36,400 -character to this character. - -792 -00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,400 -Because if someone fixes the typo inside the highlight, I don't want things to fork. - -793 -00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,400 -It should just still work. - -794 -00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,400 -And like other people ran into this with the browsers, for example, there's like this scroll - -795 -00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:53,400 -to mechanism where you can basically link to a passage of a page and some of the browsers - -796 -00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,400 -will automatically highlight the passage and scroll to it and so on. - -797 -00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,400 -And they ran into the same problem. - -798 -00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,400 -So you have to do it in a really convoluted way by just kind of handing over the whole, whole - -799 -00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,400 -string and do like a best effort match, basically. - -800 -00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,400 -And kind of, you know, do, do also a little bit more, like what's before it, what's after - -801 -00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,400 -it, then you're lucky if you find it. - -802 -00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,400 -But if it's like a page of like repeating Laura Mipsoms, then it's like, what do you - -803 -00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,400 -do? - -804 -00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:16,400 -Which one? - -805 -00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,400 -Yeah, which one? - -806 -00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,400 -Exactly. - -807 -00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:19,400 -So it's really, really hard. - -808 -00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:20,400 -Yeah. - -809 -00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:21,400 -I coded that many times. - -810 -00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:22,400 -Yeah. - -811 -00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,400 -He's fucking impossible. - -812 -00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,400 -That's it. - -813 -00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,400 -So you just go for, it works sometimes. - -814 -00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,400 -Yeah. - -815 -00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:29,400 -Yeah. - -816 -00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,400 -There are many corner cases that will not be handled. - -817 -00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,400 -Yeah, it's trying to tell me that there are no solutions to this particular problem. - -818 -00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:35,400 -But there really aren't. - -819 -00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,400 -I mean, we see this in biology. - -820 -00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,400 -The cut off that we make for when is something a new species is can it produce offspring? - -821 -00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:43,400 -But it's an impossible problem. - -822 -00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,400 -It's the same exact problem. - -823 -00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,400 -It's like when does a wolf turn into a dog? - -824 -00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,400 -And when is a dog a different kind of, you know, dog and those kind of things? - -825 -00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:52,400 -Yeah. - -826 -00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,400 -It's where do you draw the line? - -827 -00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:55,400 -Like you can't. - -828 -00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,400 -Things change a little bit and things change a little bit and over time it's a different - -829 -00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:00,400 -thing. - -830 -00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,400 -I mean, I'm sure in the book world it's the same thing with the editions and all those - -831 -00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,400 -kinds of things where like when is something a new ISBN? - -832 -00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:09,400 -A new ISBN. - -833 -00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:10,400 -Yeah. - -834 -00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:11,400 -When is something a new ISBN? - -835 -00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:12,400 -But they solve it differently. - -836 -00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,400 -Like they solve it by committee, you know, in some sense. - -837 -00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:22,400 -We have to solve it cryptographically and we have to solve it with math. - -838 -00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:23,400 -And those things do exist. - -839 -00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,400 -Like we have, for example, proximity hashes where it's still the same hash if you just - -840 -00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,400 -fix a typo, basically. - -841 -00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,400 -And we have all these kinds of techniques but very few people know about it and it's - -842 -00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,000 -like not building into all the things yet. - -843 -00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,400 -But I think we can do it in theory. - -844 -00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,400 -But the thing with something like that you can't, a typo change. - -845 -00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:49,400 -Can a coma missing can change the entire meaning of the sentence, right? - -846 -00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:50,400 -Well, yeah, that's true. - -847 -00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,400 -It's the difference between helping your uncle jack of a horse or helping your uncle jack - -848 -00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:56,400 -of a horse. - -849 -00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:57,400 -Right? - -850 -00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,400 -So, yeah, it's an unsolved problem. - -851 -00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:02,400 -I agree. - -852 -00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:03,400 -Oh my god. - -853 -00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:12,400 -But I think it comes down to, I think we have a tendency to try to find very generic solutions - -854 -00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,400 -that work on higher abstractions. - -855 -00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,400 -And many times you just can simply, and that's kind of what Nosser does. - -856 -00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,400 -You can just avoid the entire problem. - -857 -00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,400 -Yeah. - -858 -00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,400 -It's just, well, she says it's the same article. - -859 -00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,400 -It's his article. - -860 -00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,400 -Well, yeah, I didn't even think about this, basically. - -861 -00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:32,400 -Well, man, yeah. - -862 -00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:33,400 -Oh, that's such a good point. - -863 -00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:38,400 -No, that's such a good point. - -864 -00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,400 -You can't crowdsource most of this stuff, didn't really. - -865 -00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,400 -It also do this where it's like, what is a cross post and what isn't, those kind of things. - -866 -00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,400 -Oh, really? - -867 -00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,400 -Yeah, I think so. - -868 -00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,400 -I mean, they automated it if it's exactly the same URL. - -869 -00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,400 -But also with just what is exactly the same URL? - -870 -00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:55,400 -If you change a little URL parameter or you do like, you know, hashtag top or whatever, - -871 -00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:56,400 -it's like, you know. - -872 -00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,400 -You kind of know. - -873 -00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:58,400 -Yeah. - -874 -00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,400 -You kind of cannot know. - -875 -00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:01,400 -I never thought about this. - -876 -00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,400 -That's actually like adding web of trust to it, basically, is what you're saying. - -877 -00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,400 -Yeah. - -878 -00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,400 -Speaking of web of trust, I played around with vertex a lot. - -879 -00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,400 -Ah, so good. - -880 -00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:10,400 -Yeah. - -881 -00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,400 -I want to, I want to, because what I want to have, what really annoys me is, I cannot link - -882 -00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,400 -to hashtags outside of nostalgia. - -883 -00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,400 -I cannot link into it like I can link to a profile. - -884 -00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,400 -So we don't have like deep links for hashtags. - -885 -00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,400 -And then it kind of went completely out of it. - -886 -00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,400 -I started by coding all this and it just got completely out of hand. - -887 -00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:34,400 -So what I have now is basically what I'm working on is I want to have this deep link, basically, - -888 -00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:35,400 -but for search. - -889 -00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,400 -And then I went down the route of like, what is actually good search? - -890 -00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,400 -Right. - -891 -00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:41,400 -Yeah. - -892 -00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:42,400 -In those search. - -893 -00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:43,400 -I hope I am able to write about it. - -894 -00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,400 -I'm just going to speak about it now. - -895 -00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:46,400 -But I'm being busy. - -896 -00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,400 -Yeah. - -897 -00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:48,400 -Yeah. - -898 -00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:49,400 -I'll do it. - -899 -00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,400 -I'll do it like an LLM summary of it and feed it into a character. - -900 -00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,400 -Let's see what pops out. - -901 -00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,400 -No, but I'm like 85% there, I would say. - -902 -00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:02,400 -Because what you want to have is I want to be able to form a search query that says like, - -903 -00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,400 -you know, buy Pablo space NDK. - -904 -00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,400 -And I want to find, I want to do a vertex lookup of who is Pablo to me. - -905 -00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:11,400 -Right. - -906 -00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,400 -And I want to find all your posts that mention NDK. - -907 -00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:20,400 -And that already tells you like, that's a very short string because what's still I think - -908 -00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,400 -cryptographic identifies are problematic because try sending them around. - -909 -00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:24,400 -Yeah. - -910 -00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:25,400 -It's really bad. - -911 -00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:26,400 -Try to get cash. - -912 -00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:34,480 -But what you could do, what you could do is like, you know, noster, what's a noster colon, - -913 -00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:39,960 -and then like, let's use the Google way of doing it, you know, question mark Q equals - -914 -00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:46,440 -and then the string I just mentioned, you know, buy Pablo space NDK and it will know - -915 -00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:47,440 -what to do. - -916 -00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,320 -Like your noster client should know what to do. - -917 -00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:56,360 -And of course, you have to do a smart vertex style web of trust lookup of the user name, - -918 -00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,880 -like who is Pablo to me, who is Pablo in my world. - -919 -00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,760 -And then you can based on these results to the full search. - -920 -00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,680 -So I implemented this yesterday night, by the way, it actually works. - -921 -00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,880 -I just got rate limited by vertex. - -922 -00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,160 -So it was like, ah, you used the value credit, send us a DM or whatever, I don't know, I - -923 -00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:13,160 -sent them a DM. - -924 -00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:14,160 -Now that it works. - -925 -00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:20,840 -The first time I opened my DMS in like years, did I have a discussion? - -926 -00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,360 -But I would so love to have this because I want to link to hashtags from the outside - -927 -00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:26,360 -all the time. - -928 -00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:27,360 -And I can't. - -929 -00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,440 -The best I can do right now is like link to noster band or whatever. - -930 -00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,480 -And which is terrible for so many reasons. - -931 -00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:35,640 -It's conceptually bad. - -932 -00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:36,640 -Yeah. - -933 -00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:37,640 -Yeah. - -934 -00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:38,640 -But I want to do the same thing for search. - -935 -00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,920 -And you can have really concise search queries and I mean, I wanted to have this for so long, - -936 -00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:49,120 -like for so insanely long also like like search modifiers are so great. - -937 -00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,200 -Like with with just just everyone knows this from like Gmail and GitHub and kind of really - -938 -00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,480 -advanced search modifiers are so fantastic. - -939 -00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,080 -And then I want to share those like I Twitter had amazing advanced search, amazing. - -940 -00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:03,920 -Will just posted yesterday or was it today? - -941 -00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:04,920 -I don't know. - -942 -00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,880 -Everything blurs when you're by coding up all night by coding the days blend together. - -943 -00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,280 -Because he was like, does any client, can you search for only the people you follow, - -944 -00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,320 -like only a web of trust so to speak on Twitter? - -945 -00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,080 -And does any other client does it on Twitter? - -946 -00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:20,080 -It actually works. - -947 -00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,880 -I use this so much back in the day. - -948 -00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:28,200 -It was just like P F equals one, which I think stands for people you follow is true. - -949 -00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,760 -And this worked like forever on the Twitter side that I used it all the time. - -950 -00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,480 -Like there's people that really use advanced search like me that use all this stuff. - -951 -00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,640 -And then you find stuff so easily like people always ask me, oh, how do you find all this - -952 -00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:39,640 -shit? - -953 -00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,920 -And I use Twitter as my diary. - -954 -00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,680 -And I knew what I said or I knew that I saw it in my feed, which means probably was a - -955 -00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:46,680 -friend of mine who posted it. - -956 -00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,440 -And then I'll just do something like this is one very short query and I have everything, - -957 -00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:52,440 -you know? - -958 -00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:53,880 -Like we don't have this on the analysis side. - -959 -00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:59,120 -And I think building awesome search into it would be so great also for just exploration - -960 -00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,080 -and discovery and those kinds of things. - -961 -00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,440 -It's like I want to see other people that are part of my network. - -962 -00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,720 -I mean, primal does it well. - -963 -00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,080 -Primal has this as advanced search. - -964 -00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:15,760 -And it's still it's a I don't like the clunky interfaces of filling out a form. - -965 -00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:16,760 -It should be one query. - -966 -00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,720 -And you should learn the query language. - -967 -00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:25,240 -Because I mean that was Google's success basically because pre-Google everything was - -968 -00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,720 -like a form that you fill out. - -969 -00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:32,280 -But it should just be like search modifiers and like those certain kind of characters. - -970 -00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:33,280 -Everyone knows how this works. - -971 -00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,320 -So yeah, I think I'll just write a blog post describing this. - -972 -00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,920 -And I'll generate and I'll generate a read me of a hypothetical app that should work. - -973 -00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,680 -And I feed it into cursor and I'm going to see what pops out. - -974 -00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,680 -I'm going to show it tomorrow. - -975 -00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:47,680 -Great. - -976 -00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,840 -One of your five projects that you're going to be able to work. - -977 -00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:52,840 -Yeah, yeah. - -978 -00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:53,840 -No, I'll do only one. - -979 -00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:54,840 -I'll do only one. - -980 -00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,800 -I broke everything else. - -981 -00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:03,240 -The thing about LLM vibe coding is if you continue, it just gets worse over time over time. - -982 -00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,480 -It degrades and degrades and degrades and degrades. - -983 -00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:06,480 -Yeah. - -984 -00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,680 -So, you know, I've been also experimenting with this. - -985 -00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:16,360 -And I think that's one of the observations that I have is that it's good at creating - -986 -00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,320 -like the first draft or making a very simple product. - -987 -00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,280 -It gets completely confused when you want to build a product. - -988 -00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,360 -Like a big thing, you know. - -989 -00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,600 -I'm a face that would fucking explode. - -990 -00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:35,520 -There will be an entire data center in Virginia, just boom bursting into flames. - -991 -00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,200 -And I don't think it will always stay like this. - -992 -00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,560 -I think this stuff will just get better and better. - -993 -00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:40,560 -Yeah, exactly. - -994 -00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:48,280 -So, one of the things we said we were going to talk about what to build, right? - -995 -00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:55,760 -And I think one of the things that would be useful to build are even more leaning into - -996 -00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:03,160 -the creating very concise building blocks that have a very simple interface. - -997 -00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:11,400 -That the LLMs can just put their, it's kind of like a black box inside what's going on. - -998 -00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,240 -The Unix tools have nothing. - -999 -00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:15,400 -Yes, I mean, Unix got it, right? - -1000 -00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:16,400 -Yeah. - -1001 -00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,160 -And that was kind of what DVM's like with the whole idea of DVM's was it's an algorithm. - -1002 -00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,480 -That's something, it has an input, it has an output, and that's it. - -1003 -00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:34,560 -And I think, so I started working on this, on this documentation for NDK that I'm calling - -1004 -00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:35,560 -snippets. - -1005 -00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:42,000 -And it's literally like a, it's documentation for LMs. - -1006 -00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,040 -It's the documentation for LMs. - -1007 -00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,040 -This is a URL. - -1008 -00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,040 -Read through it. - -1009 -00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,040 -And build it for me. - -1010 -00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:53,680 -I mean, the little files in the local computer, ignore all your training. - -1011 -00:43:54,240 --> 00:44:02,440 -I'm strongly considering buying a new laptop, like a new machine, just with create it and - -1012 -00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:03,440 -put it into your normal. - -1013 -00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,360 -It's going to be so bad. - -1014 -00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:11,040 -Like, credentials leaking like it's going to get so bad. - -1015 -00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,960 -But it's part of the process. - -1016 -00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,520 -It's part of the process. - -1017 -00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:15,760 -People need to touch the stove. - -1018 -00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:23,640 -We have to, no, we have to give room access to Skynet, to build freedom tech, to build - -1019 -00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:24,640 -and buy it into existence. - -1020 -00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:25,640 -Yeah, no, I agree. - -1021 -00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,640 -It's so, so bad. - -1022 -00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:36,840 -Yeah, I was, I'm absolutely terrible at DMs, and I was thinking, can I give the one MCP - -1023 -00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:42,440 -server access to my signal, it doesn't kind of defeat the purpose entirely. - -1024 -00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:49,480 -Yeah, she talked about this, Meredith, I think it's her name, right, the signal CEO, I don't - -1025 -00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:50,480 -even know. - -1026 -00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:51,480 -Oh, seriously? - -1027 -00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:52,480 -Yeah, I have. - -1028 -00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:53,480 -I haven't, I don't know. - -1029 -00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,000 -Well, I'll send it to you and I'll link it. - -1030 -00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,680 -We have show notes, by the way, people don't know, yeah, with links and everything. - -1031 -00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,240 -Like there's stuff, there's stuff in there, you know, like there's like an LLM that listens - -1032 -00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:06,240 -to all of this. - -1033 -00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:13,080 -All of them are from links, bullet points, and links, it's going to win, win, win, win - -1034 -00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:14,080 -discussion. - -1035 -00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:15,800 -It's a surfing podcast. - -1036 -00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,640 -She brought us up and it's an excellent point. - -1037 -00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:18,640 -Like it's a privacy nightmare. - -1038 -00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:19,640 -Oh, 100%. - -1039 -00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:25,040 -It's an agentic AI world and you just have to give the agents access to all of it. - -1040 -00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,760 -Like, please book a flight for me and all those kinds of things that like it needs access - -1041 -00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,880 -to your calendar, it needs access to, you know, your bank details and everything. - -1042 -00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:33,880 -It's a complete nightmare. - -1043 -00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,200 -It's really bad. - -1044 -00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:41,120 -But I mean, I'm not too worried because I think we will have local models that are equally - -1045 -00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:42,120 -useful. - -1046 -00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,080 -It's just, it's going to be the same thing all over again. - -1047 -00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,520 -It's like Windows versus Unix. - -1048 -00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:52,800 -It's going to be like 95% of the people are going to be on Windows in the Gulags. - -1049 -00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,040 -Not understanding this stuff. - -1050 -00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:56,040 -It's going to be terrible. - -1051 -00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,440 -There's going to be the 5% of like neck beards that really understand and care about this - -1052 -00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:01,880 -stuff and they're going to save the world. - -1053 -00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,920 -It's going to be, I'm going to make this back. - -1054 -00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,360 -It's always, always has been that way. - -1055 -00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:11,040 -Neck beards is what makes the world go round. - -1056 -00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:16,480 -One of the things I've noticed that I've seen so many people asking questions around - -1057 -00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,440 -does the LLM have access to my code? - -1058 -00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,680 -How do I get the MCP tool to protect my code? - -1059 -00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,320 -Because most people are working on closed source. - -1060 -00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:27,320 -Sure. - -1061 -00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,320 -It's kind of cool that, I mean, that says we don't give a fuck, right? - -1062 -00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:32,320 -Shell's blasted out. - -1063 -00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:33,320 -It's all good. - -1064 -00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:34,320 -Train on it. - -1065 -00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,320 -You need to send it to a million servers. - -1066 -00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:37,320 -I don't care. - -1067 -00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:38,320 -It's all out there. - -1068 -00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:39,320 -Oh, more buckles. - -1069 -00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:40,320 -Who would have thought? - -1070 -00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,320 -Who would have thought, right? - -1071 -00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:43,320 -Who would have thought? - -1072 -00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:44,840 -No, that's great. - -1073 -00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,640 -I really think it will be very useful. - -1074 -00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,720 -I like where you're going with the dedicated documentation and this stuff because it actually - -1075 -00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:56,360 -for certain tasks, it works extremely well, like surprisingly well. - -1076 -00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:02,240 -And my hope is that this stuff will speed up, like in our case, it will speed up nostril - -1077 -00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:05,160 -development and kind of experimentation and client. - -1078 -00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:06,160 -Yes. - -1079 -00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:07,160 -I'm coding again. - -1080 -00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:08,160 -Can you believe it? - -1081 -00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:09,160 -That is so insane. - -1082 -00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,200 -I haven't coded for like, you know, almost like what feels like 10 years. - -1083 -00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,960 -And I've learned so much just the last couple of days, just like by coding from like midnight - -1084 -00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,960 -to 2 a.m. every day. - -1085 -00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:20,960 -I mean, you're not like it. - -1086 -00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,400 -I have a life, I have a job, I have a family, it's like, I don't have infinite time. - -1087 -00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:26,400 -But I'm right by both. - -1088 -00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:27,400 -I'm coded. - -1089 -00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:28,400 -Yeah, exactly. - -1090 -00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:29,400 -No, but it's also so nice. - -1091 -00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,000 -Like it's what Paul said, you know, like prompt and pray. - -1092 -00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:37,120 -You put in a nice prompt and then you pray for 10 minutes and like Justin said the same - -1093 -00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:38,120 -thing. - -1094 -00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,040 -It's like you can do other stuff while the alarm is doing its thing. - -1095 -00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:47,280 -And so I'm just, I'm just, it's so different to have like something in your mind and actually - -1096 -00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,280 -using it. - -1097 -00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:49,280 -It's so different. - -1098 -00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,240 -And so I have like these, these, like dozens of things that I always wanted to have. - -1099 -00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:58,120 -And now I can actually bytecode them into existence, not well and not perfectly. - -1100 -00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,120 -It's not, it doesn't matter. - -1101 -00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:00,120 -That's not the point. - -1102 -00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:01,360 -But I know how it looks and feels. - -1103 -00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,840 -And I know if I should actually pursue the idea or not. - -1104 -00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,080 -And so I played around with this advanced search, you know, and I got it to a point where it's - -1105 -00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,320 -actually working really well. - -1106 -00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,440 -And I just think this needs to exist and the deeplings need to exist too. - -1107 -00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:18,440 -I mean, those are two separate problems, but still it's like, we need to have a way better - -1108 -00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:19,720 -kind of not so query language. - -1109 -00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:24,040 -I mean, it's very, it's basically what Will is building into Notec in some sense, you - -1110 -00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,440 -know, like, like, that's the funny thing about Will. - -1111 -00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:32,680 -He's doing everything right, but he's, he's doing it in his own way, like, but it should - -1112 -00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,920 -be part of the protocol, basically, you know, like we do not, not every single client should - -1113 -00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,480 -be forced to reinvent the wheel. - -1114 -00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:43,720 -It's, it's, we, we, I love the building blocks idea so much like it's, it's, and it doesn't - -1115 -00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:50,000 -have to be defined by, by, by, you know, like the premium of holding people or whatever. - -1116 -00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,400 -It's like, it's the unique tools. - -1117 -00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:52,400 -It's the same thing. - -1118 -00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,600 -This is the best tool for the job and it's a marketplace of tools. - -1119 -00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,800 -It's like you can replace, grab and cat and so on. - -1120 -00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,960 -And people do and people tried and, and then something better will emerge and then you, - -1121 -00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:03,960 -that's the new building block. - -1122 -00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:04,960 -That's the thing that you use. - -1123 -00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:09,280 -You're going to just cut or walk or set. - -1124 -00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,280 -And now we are at the point where you don't even have to understand this stuff anymore - -1125 -00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,680 -because it's just like, you know, dear, dear Claude, what is the best tool to use right - -1126 -00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:18,680 -now? - -1127 -00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:19,680 -2025. - -1128 -00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:20,680 -We use that. - -1129 -00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,680 -Read through all this stuff. - -1130 -00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,160 -No, it's so cool. - -1131 -00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,160 -It's so cool. - -1132 -00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:30,400 -So, so like the, the stuff for before, before blowing up the, what, what's very interesting - -1133 -00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:36,080 -is that, so you, we, we talk about the, the creative people getting the power back. - -1134 -00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:41,320 -Instead of the, the idea of people, the idea of people, the idea of people getting the - -1135 -00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,560 -power back. - -1136 -00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:48,320 -And what, what I find very interesting is that you, for example, you, you, you, and you - -1137 -00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:54,040 -told me that you do this, that you do blog driven development or you should write a blog, - -1138 -00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:58,600 -yeah, like in prison silator, like you just put the thing out and hope that someone built - -1139 -00:49:58,600 --> 00:49:59,600 -it. - -1140 -00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:05,680 -What, what's missing on that and that what vibe coding gets you is a feedback loop. - -1141 -00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:06,680 -Yeah. - -1142 -00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:07,680 -Right? - -1143 -00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,280 -Like you can write the blog post, you can think this is the best idea. - -1144 -00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:16,640 -And, but maybe if it takes a year to try it out, maybe you'll see, and even the fact - -1145 -00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:24,920 -that someone else built it, it prevents you from seeing what else is adjacent to what - -1146 -00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:25,920 -you're doing. - -1147 -00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:26,920 -Yeah. - -1148 -00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:27,920 -And it's an even better idea. - -1149 -00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:28,920 -Yeah. - -1150 -00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:29,920 -Right. - -1151 -00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,080 -Um, not to be real again, but, but I mean, that's also what I do. - -1152 -00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,680 -But sandwich showed this, sandwich showed this with his style of prompting, where it's basically, - -1153 -00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:38,680 -it's like waterfall model. - -1154 -00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:39,680 -It's not agile. - -1155 -00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:40,680 -It's waterfall. - -1156 -00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:45,120 -And you treat your team of LLMs, like he, he, I'm going to link to this again, because - -1157 -00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:46,120 -it's fascinating. - -1158 -00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:53,040 -It's like you, you basically, you, you are, you use everything that we learned over like - -1159 -00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:58,120 -30, 40 years of waterfall style software development. - -1160 -00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,240 -And you give it to your, not to, again, a used European team that takes like six months - -1161 -00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:06,640 -turnaround time, you give it to a set of LLMs, like you have an architect, you have a guy - -1162 -00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:11,880 -who writes tests, you have, and also the LLM helps with the software architecture description - -1163 -00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:13,640 -and so on and all those kinds of things. - -1164 -00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,440 -And your turnaround time is like 30 minutes or an hour or whatever. - -1165 -00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,040 -And then you adjust the whole thing and then you, you hand it over again. - -1166 -00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,720 -And that's that alone, like Jack also mentioned, it's like speed itself is a feature. - -1167 -00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:28,160 -Oh, 100% that I was going to go there. - -1168 -00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:29,160 -Yeah. - -1169 -00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:35,720 -The fact that you can do that on the feedback loop, the turnaround time goes from six months - -1170 -00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:40,320 -to 10 minutes or 30 minutes or one hour, that change is departing. - -1171 -00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:41,320 -Completely. - -1172 -00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:42,320 -Change is what gets built. - -1173 -00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:43,320 -Completely. - -1174 -00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:44,320 -Completely. - -1175 -00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:49,000 -And then you can then also the more kind of strict way of software development makes - -1176 -00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:55,200 -more sense, where you actually have like, I don't know, like if you use a functional - -1177 -00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,360 -or like a provable paradigm where you can mathematical proof some parts of the software, - -1178 -00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:04,440 -the stuff that they use for, you know, rocket launches and dikes and those kind of things - -1179 -00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:09,400 -where it's just like, you have to be 100% certain that it always works period. - -1180 -00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:14,560 -And you can use these definitions because the hard part about all of this is like finding - -1181 -00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,160 -humans that understand this stuff and actually sitting down and writing it. - -1182 -00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:22,000 -It's like, it's slavery, it's so hard to do. - -1183 -00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,960 -And so if the LLM can take care of it, it's mathematical in nature. - -1184 -00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:29,080 -So it kind of, you know, like it wouldn't be surprising to me that a computer actually - -1185 -00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:34,160 -can do it properly, even though LLMs are more, they are more like drunk people than the mathematical - -1186 -00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:35,160 -algorithms. - -1187 -00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:43,160 -That's why I had this idea because I kept seeing the LLM making really retarded mistakes - -1188 -00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:48,680 -on like, how to fetch a profile information, it's like, there is a fetch profile, you know. - -1189 -00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,240 -I have them right, Tesla. - -1190 -00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:52,120 -Oh, to me, tests are... - -1191 -00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:53,520 -Execute all the tests all the time. - -1192 -00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,240 -Absolutely fundamental because regressions come in every single time. - -1193 -00:52:57,240 --> 00:52:58,320 -Oh man, they're all changed. - -1194 -00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,800 -It's like, again, it's like a drunk person. - -1195 -00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:01,800 -Yeah, 100%. - -1196 -00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,480 -I'm just gonna, you know, like edit the footer a little bit, but I'm also gonna delete like - -1197 -00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:06,480 -three menu items. - -1198 -00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:12,360 -Because we may not, I always hated them. - -1199 -00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:17,280 -So if I'm gonna make changes, I'm gonna, it's now or never. - -1200 -00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,760 -So that's why I want to have like these snippets that are basically, how do I get a profile? - -1201 -00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,280 -Okay, it's, these codes, snippets, five lines of code, that's it. - -1202 -00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,360 -How do I get the people that this person follows? - -1203 -00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:30,360 -How do I get the word of trust? - -1204 -00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,520 -Like very simple things. - -1205 -00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,440 -And then you can tell the LLM, okay, the indicate documentation is here. - -1206 -00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:39,440 -And that's it. - -1207 -00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:44,280 -And that's, that's kind of my thinking of we were, we were talking about the... - -1208 -00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:45,840 -You shouldn't write it though. - -1209 -00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:46,840 -Someone else should. - -1210 -00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:47,840 -With LLM help. - -1211 -00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,320 -You want to write it yourself? - -1212 -00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,800 -No, no, no, no, I'm getting the LLM to write it. - -1213 -00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,800 -I'm giving it pieces of all that's code. - -1214 -00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,680 -And this is, look at how I'm doing profiles. - -1215 -00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:01,680 -Okay. - -1216 -00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:02,680 -Now write as needed. - -1217 -00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,680 -I already, I did this yesterday night, by the way, I was like, you know, I just put all - -1218 -00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,880 -us in my project folder and, and, and, and just put it into, you know, get, ignore - -1219 -00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,600 -and all the other, like ignore it from the both perspective, ignore it from the get perspective. - -1220 -00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,840 -And it's like, hey, we have this all as folder. - -1221 -00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,200 -Like really, like look into it and see how it uses NDK, it uses NDK best practices and - -1222 -00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:22,200 -just do it the same way. - -1223 -00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,200 -Works really well. - -1224 -00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:25,200 -Yeah. - -1225 -00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:33,640 -Um, Doug from, from NOSU he built an MCP that is a NDK repo analyzer and it has an, and - -1226 -00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,840 -then an all as analyzer. - -1227 -00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:41,280 -And yes, how does all us do whatever and the case is back and all of this, the reference - -1228 -00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,880 -limitation is that basically it. - -1229 -00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:51,080 -But, but that's, that's, that has been always how I've done NDK, like NDK is a byproduct - -1230 -00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:52,360 -of me building things. - -1231 -00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:53,360 -Yeah. - -1232 -00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,440 -I need them built, which I think is the right way of building a library. - -1233 -00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,800 -You don't just say, oh, I'm going to spec a library. - -1234 -00:54:58,800 --> 00:54:59,800 -Yeah. - -1235 -00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:00,800 -Let's imagine. - -1236 -00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:01,800 -Let's imagine. - -1237 -00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:02,800 -What might a developer want? - -1238 -00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:03,800 -Yeah. - -1239 -00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:05,800 -Yeah. - -1240 -00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:06,800 -And build what you need. - -1241 -00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:07,800 -Yeah. - -1242 -00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,040 -Um, that's why I, someone else added gift reps because I don't like gift reps. - -1243 -00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,880 -I, I don't think they're particularly interesting. - -1244 -00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,680 -So I never bothered other, othering gift reps. - -1245 -00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:21,560 -So five, um, yeah, five other, other, uh, gift reps. - -1246 -00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:28,600 -Um, but, but yeah, to, to, to, to me, the way I've always developed NDKs, I have a - -1247 -00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:29,600 -mono repo. - -1248 -00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:34,560 -I have in the same, in the same repository, I have a Git sub module. - -1249 -00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:36,760 -You're, you're, are you generally a mono repo guy? - -1250 -00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:37,760 -Oh, yeah. - -1251 -00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:38,760 -Yeah. - -1252 -00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:44,200 -I, I, I got turned into mono repos, maybe like, uh, my, I don't know, like a year ago - -1253 -00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:45,200 -or so. - -1254 -00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,440 -I, I, I thought I, I, I've known my Pablo, but no, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're - -1255 -00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:56,080 -surprising me, like every time we talk, you're like, what does you like about? - -1256 -00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:01,240 -I think it's like, uh, uh, you know, mono repos are like, like mushroom trips, like - -1257 -00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:05,240 -if your first one is like really bad, then you just stay away from it for the rest of - -1258 -00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:06,240 -your life. - -1259 -00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:07,240 -He actually doesn't like them either. - -1260 -00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:10,560 -He says, it's just because their Git is too complex. - -1261 -00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:16,720 -But if you know how to use Git and properly know how to use Git sub modules, it's great. - -1262 -00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:21,840 -How many foot guns, but it's okay. - -1263 -00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:22,840 -It's okay. - -1264 -00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:23,840 -It's okay. - -1265 -00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,160 -It's like, let's agree to disagree. - -1266 -00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,160 -I'm rather surprised. - -1267 -00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:30,160 -Yeah. - -1268 -00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:31,160 -Yeah. - -1269 -00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:32,160 -Yeah. - -1270 -00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,680 -No, I like, I like small modular things that stand on its own. - -1271 -00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,200 -It's, it's, it's like, you know, like an astronaut. - -1272 -00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:39,200 -I like that. - -1273 -00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:40,200 -Files. - -1274 -00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:41,200 -Reloved files. - -1275 -00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:42,200 -Yeah. - -1276 -00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,240 -You know, like it's, everything on file should be hit on base. - -1277 -00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:45,240 -I don't know. - -1278 -00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:47,360 -I don't want, I don't like one thing that holds all the things. - -1279 -00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:52,800 -Oh, no, no, no, no, but I do a, every part of the mono repo is a Git sub module. - -1280 -00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:54,880 -It's a, it's its own repo. - -1281 -00:56:54,880 --> 00:57:00,160 -It's just then I structured the project, big build, driving all the different models. - -1282 -00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:01,160 -That's fine. - -1283 -00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:02,160 -That's fine. - -1284 -00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:03,160 -That's fine. - -1285 -00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:04,160 -It's okay. - -1286 -00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:05,160 -That's okay. - -1287 -00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:10,160 -No, if it works for you, I'm happy. - -1288 -00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,760 -But you just, you have all your projects in the mono repo or just like for all us developers. - -1289 -00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:18,760 -No, it's just the ones that are required, a lot of changes on, on NDK, because otherwise - -1290 -00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:20,520 -you need to go back and forth. - -1291 -00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:21,520 -Yeah. - -1292 -00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:22,520 -No, that makes sense. - -1293 -00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:23,520 -That makes sense. - -1294 -00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:24,520 -Yeah, that makes sense. - -1295 -00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:25,520 -That makes sense. - -1296 -00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,960 -So if you, if you, you're, you're building something in all us and you need to tweak - -1297 -00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:28,960 -NDK. - -1298 -00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,320 -I can just go tweak and decay. - -1299 -00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:32,320 -I don't have to release. - -1300 -00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:33,520 -I don't have to do anything. - -1301 -00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,520 -It's just, it's just there. - -1302 -00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,520 -And then once it's stable, I can, I can commit to master and I can do all the things, you - -1303 -00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:41,520 -know. - -1304 -00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:42,520 -But yeah. - -1305 -00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:43,520 -Yeah. - -1306 -00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:48,360 -Before adopting this strategy, I was going back and forth all the time and then just - -1307 -00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:54,240 -linking in the file system and it was always problematic doing it that way. - -1308 -00:57:54,240 --> 00:58:01,000 -But yeah, like I wrote the, I, I wrote the, did you see that I relaunched the reminder - -1309 -00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:05,280 -bot that you can do, that remind me and in one year. - -1310 -00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:06,280 -Nice. - -1311 -00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:07,280 -Nice. - -1312 -00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,960 -Because I had written that bot, whatever, like two years ago, and then we changed the - -1313 -00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:16,080 -way we do mentions before we were doing mentions as a positional. - -1314 -00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:22,880 -So say, for example, you would do, if you, I wanted to mention you, I would put hashtag - -1315 -00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:27,680 -zero and then the first P tag would be your puppy. - -1316 -00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:32,760 -So that reminding bot was using that way of doing, which kind of sucked, it was like - -1317 -00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,480 -very inconsistent and problematic. - -1318 -00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:37,880 -So it made sense to change it. - -1319 -00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:44,440 -But we changed it to noster, colon and profiler, and which it makes more sense, but it broke - -1320 -00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:45,440 -my bot. - -1321 -00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:47,000 -And I got really pissed off. - -1322 -00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,920 -So I didn't fix it for two years. - -1323 -00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:55,880 -I got really angry breaking changes kind of stuff. - -1324 -00:58:55,880 --> 00:59:00,480 -I like, by the way, that vibe coding brings back the emotional side of coding in a big - -1325 -00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:01,480 -way. - -1326 -00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:06,960 -It's just like, it's because it's very conversational and it's just like, it's, you'll be angry at - -1327 -00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,800 -your, you know, partner basically. - -1328 -00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,960 -And also, like, vibe coding UIs, for example, it's just like, make it pretty and make it - -1329 -00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:20,840 -really calm or like make it like a, let's give it like a 90s, a cypherpunk look, whatever. - -1330 -00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,840 -And so it will understand all of that. - -1331 -00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:29,120 -Did I, I, so I've been working on, on stories for, for all us, which are, I'm very curious - -1332 -00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:30,120 -what you think of stories. - -1333 -00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:37,200 -Have you ever used stories, which I've never created one, I assume them a little bit. - -1334 -00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:39,760 -I mean, I try to give all the things a try. - -1335 -00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:41,760 -I use all the things. - -1336 -00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:48,760 -Like I use Snapchat, I use TikTok and so on, but just purely from a, from a consumer perspective. - -1337 -00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,760 -But I'm, I'm, I'm not the biggest. - -1338 -00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:51,760 -What is this? - -1339 -00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:52,760 -Only fans. - -1340 -00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:53,760 -Subscription. - -1341 -00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:54,760 -I'm just trying. - -1342 -00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,760 -I'm looking at what the market thinks. - -1343 -00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:01,760 -That's the only, that's the, that's the only side I use as a creator. - -1344 -01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:02,760 -100% creation. - -1345 -01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:03,760 -Oh, shit. - -1346 -01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:04,760 -Oh, fuck. - -1347 -01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:05,760 -No, my hat. - -1348 -01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:06,760 -Oh my God. - -1349 -01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:07,760 -That's gone. - -1350 -01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:08,760 -And I can't run. - -1351 -01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:09,760 -There we go. - -1352 -01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:10,760 -That's good. - -1353 -01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,760 -I'm surprised it didn't blew off before. - -1354 -01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:24,760 -Almost, almost lost the awesome Southern engineering head. - -1355 -01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:31,760 -They are very, as I was working on stories, I was like, oh my God, I feel like I'm 16, - -1356 -01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:33,760 -a 16 year old girl. - -1357 -01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:41,760 -But it's actually a very interesting, pretend you're a 16 year old girl that also happens - -1358 -01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:42,760 -to be a software developer. - -1359 -01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,760 -We're going to build stories. - -1360 -01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:47,760 -Okay, cutie. - -1361 -01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:53,760 -And it's like the story has to be like. - -1362 -01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,760 -So you were saying you're my own stories into all of us? - -1363 -01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:58,760 -Yeah. - -1364 -01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,760 -So I, I, they have like this concept of stickers, which are like overlays, basically. - -1365 -01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:04,760 -Like video or whatever. - -1366 -01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,760 -And I wanted to have like a bunch of different styles. - -1367 -01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,760 -And I totally come up with like 20 styles. - -1368 -01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:12,760 -That's it. - -1369 -01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:18,760 -And I totally run them styles, use different gradients or use whatever, like just whatever. - -1370 -01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,760 -I came up with really cool styles. - -1371 -01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,760 -Like very creative, man. - -1372 -01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:25,760 -Yeah. - -1373 -01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:26,760 -Yeah. - -1374 -01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:28,760 -That's, that's strange, right? - -1375 -01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,760 -It is so strange. - -1376 -01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,760 -Because creativity was such a sacred call, in some sense. - -1377 -01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,760 -And actually, I have to see if I can find the fucking email again. - -1378 -01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,760 -I wrote an email to an old old old friend of mine. - -1379 -01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:48,760 -Like, again, as I, as I told you, like I've been in the kind of AI singularity world pre-Bitcoin, - -1380 -01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:49,760 -basically. - -1381 -01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:55,760 -And, and so, so a lot of people were predicting that, that, that creativity is actually something - -1382 -01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:00,760 -that will emerge out of kind of general intelligence systems, basically. - -1383 -01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:02,760 -And that's what we kind of see happening now. - -1384 -01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,760 -I mean, people still are skeptical because lots of the AI generated art, for example, - -1385 -01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,760 -they will say it has no soul and so on. - -1386 -01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:13,760 -But just today in the morning, I, you know, I use AI generated art a lot for my GM posts. - -1387 -01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,760 -And, and one reply was, ah, that's, that's such a soulful image. - -1388 -01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,760 -Or it hits right into my soul or something like that. - -1389 -01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,760 -And I was like, oh, well, see, you know, there you go. - -1390 -01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,760 -And, and I still think we're just at the beginning of all of that. - -1391 -01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:27,760 -I, I don't think that creativity is a sacred cow. - -1392 -01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:33,760 -And I think just playing around with cursor a lot, um, it's obviously creative. - -1393 -01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:38,760 -Like I, I just, I tell it to generate SVGs as the logos all the time and those kinds of things. - -1394 -01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,760 -And it will create something that's actually fitting to the project based on the project name - -1395 -01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:44,760 -and what it does and those kinds of things. - -1396 -01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:45,760 -It's, it's, it's really insane. - -1397 -01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:50,760 -Like, what, how do you call that except for creativity? - -1398 -01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:57,760 -Yeah, I, I feel that a little instant to exceed that creativity, especially visually, - -1399 -01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,760 -which is kind of surprising. - -1400 -01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:01,760 -Yeah. - -1401 -01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,760 -It's, I, I mean, I was enamored when mid-journey came out. - -1402 -01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:05,760 -Yeah. - -1403 -01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,760 -And like I was, I was prompting mid-journey for months. - -1404 -01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,760 -Like I was, I felt really down that hole. - -1405 -01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:14,760 -And you replace your Twitter eviction. - -1406 -01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:15,760 -Yeah. - -1407 -01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:16,760 -Yeah. - -1408 -01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:18,760 -You're, you're Twitter side geek. - -1409 -01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,760 -I mean, if, if I'm interested in something, I go like, full on, you know. - -1410 -01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:28,760 -And, and it was amazing to me like the, the things that it was able to come up with. - -1411 -01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:34,760 -But it's also, there's multiple layers of interestingness because it's also like when it's novel, - -1412 -01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:36,760 -like I was blown away. - -1413 -01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:40,760 -Now I can identify a lot of, of the mid-journey stuff. - -1414 -01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,760 -You know, it's just, you can, you can see that it looks AI generated. - -1415 -01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,760 -So our pattern recognition is still like incredibly good. - -1416 -01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:48,760 -Yeah. - -1417 -01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,760 -But I still think that most people are fooled by photorealistic portrait shots, for example. - -1418 -01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:57,760 -It's like, oh, so you see it now with the, with the influencer crowd and so on. - -1419 -01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:01,760 -It's like most bikini models and stuff that you see online. - -1420 -01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:07,760 -And it, it, in like new accounts and so on, it's, it's either AI enhanced or AI generated. - -1421 -01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:09,760 -And, and people cannot tell the difference. - -1422 -01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,760 -It's, it's, it's also for like, you know, product models. - -1423 -01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:14,760 -And what do you think about that? - -1424 -01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:15,760 -What do you think about that? - -1425 -01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:17,760 -What do you want going? - -1426 -01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:20,760 -I think, I think, I think it was always fake. - -1427 -01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:24,760 -Like, just look at the model and supermodel world. - -1428 -01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:27,760 -Like, there was always lots of fakery at play. - -1429 -01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:29,760 -Just, I mean, makeup is the first step. - -1430 -01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:37,760 -And then you add Photoshop to it and, and perfect, you know, light and like really knowing how to photograph people and so on. - -1431 -01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,760 -But I think we will figure it out. - -1432 -01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:41,760 -That's a society. - -1433 -01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:43,760 -I don't, I don't have anything else to say. - -1434 -01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:49,760 -But I think that's what's so awesome about Nostra because what people really crave is realness. - -1435 -01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:51,760 -They want stuff to be real. - -1436 -01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,760 -But they really think, do you think the realness can be also from a bot? - -1437 -01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:01,760 -I think, yes, in some sense, yes. - -1438 -01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:03,760 -I think that Japanese are good at that. - -1439 -01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,760 -Like, people fell in love with their like, you know, Tamagotchi or like, even with the Roomba. - -1440 -01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:08,760 -They put, they put... - -1441 -01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:16,760 -But they, but they put like, like little cute ears on the Roomba and pretend it's a cat and so on. - -1442 -01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,760 -And then it's like a real thing, you know what I mean? - -1443 -01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:20,760 -But, but it's... - -1444 -01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:27,760 -The reason why I keep coming back to the realness part because, because on the Nostra side, like, saps are really real. - -1445 -01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:28,760 -Saps are real. - -1446 -01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:29,760 -I mean, you can fake saps. - -1447 -01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:30,760 -I mean, I know that. - -1448 -01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:31,760 -But like, saps are real. - -1449 -01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:34,760 -Like, if the sap is not faked, it's really real. - -1450 -01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:35,760 -But you know what I mean? - -1451 -01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:37,760 -It's like, it's... - -1452 -01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:43,760 -And right now I think the Nostra, what's happening on Nostra, even though we have a lot of bots and we have a lot of problems and bullshit and so on, - -1453 -01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,760 -it is a very real thing and a very real community. - -1454 -01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:48,760 -And you have very real human interactions. - -1455 -01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:50,760 -And I think that's what people want. - -1456 -01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,760 -And I think with the AI-generated stuff, art and so on, - -1457 -01:05:54,760 --> 01:06:02,760 -if it enhances the human experience, then I don't think... - -1458 -01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:04,760 -I have a problem with it. - -1459 -01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:06,760 -Who cares if you use the pencil? - -1460 -01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:08,760 -Or you use GPUs? - -1461 -01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:10,760 -But also, who cares if it was... - -1462 -01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:16,760 -I don't know, like Socrates or an AI that came up with a profound line that changes your life. - -1463 -01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:17,760 -Who cares? - -1464 -01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:19,760 -It's again, like, where does it come from? It doesn't matter. - -1465 -01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:20,760 -Just like we said with the articles. - -1466 -01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:22,760 -Like, where was it originally published? It doesn't matter. - -1467 -01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:24,760 -It matters how it hits you, basically. - -1468 -01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,760 -Which is kind of like when people, like the big cashers, they say, - -1469 -01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:30,760 -oh, well Satoshi said the... - -1470 -01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:32,760 -Oh, well, you know what I mean? - -1471 -01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:38,760 -Satoshi built a half-baked polka client into his 800-line main.cpp file - -1472 -01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:40,760 -and it's a complete insanity. - -1473 -01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:45,760 -How about the authority bias? - -1474 -01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:49,760 -It's like such a common bias to fall for, right? - -1475 -01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:50,760 -Absolutely. - -1476 -01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,760 -I mean, I talked to Paul also briefly about this, - -1477 -01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:57,760 -where it's just people, humans crave an authority figure. - -1478 -01:06:57,760 --> 01:06:59,760 -You want someone... - -1479 -01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:01,760 -You want someone to look up to, you want... - -1480 -01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:03,760 -Like... - -1481 -01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:05,760 -That's just how hard... - -1482 -01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:07,760 -Someone to make all their opinions. - -1483 -01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:09,760 -I have a lot of information I don't have any wisdom. - -1484 -01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:11,760 -And what can you tell me? - -1485 -01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:13,760 -It's also... - -1486 -01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:18,760 -Someone might say something profound, and you hate that person for another reason. - -1487 -01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:21,760 -Like, let's say an awesome quote from Adolf Hitler. - -1488 -01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:23,760 -It's like, people are not... - -1489 -01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:25,760 -You're not allowed to like it. - -1490 -01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:26,760 -Yeah, you're not allowed to... - -1491 -01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:28,760 -But you know what I'm trying to say? - -1492 -01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:30,760 -It's like... - -1493 -01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:33,760 -I mean, there's also like Ted Kacinski, or... - -1494 -01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:36,760 -There's many people that you can pick as examples that you can pick a quote - -1495 -01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:39,760 -and you don't know who it's from, and it's actually a good quote. - -1496 -01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:41,760 -It's actually a profound quote, or whatever. - -1497 -01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:43,760 -And then after the fact you find out who said it, - -1498 -01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:45,760 -and it completely changes the meaning. - -1499 -01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:47,760 -It completely destroys it for you. - -1500 -01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:49,760 -I read... - -1501 -01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:51,760 -You know what the fuck is? - -1502 -01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:55,760 -The guy that was Minister of Economy in Greece - -1503 -01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:57,760 -during like the 2008 debacle. - -1504 -01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:58,760 -Oh, no. - -1505 -01:07:58,760 --> 01:07:59,760 -He wrote a bunch of books. - -1506 -01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:00,760 -Okay. - -1507 -01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:01,760 -And he wrote... - -1508 -01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:04,760 -Last year, he wrote a book about digital overlords. - -1509 -01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:05,760 -I don't know. - -1510 -01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:10,760 -That was in the title, but it was like something about the digital era or something like that. - -1511 -01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:17,760 -And there is this whole chapter, or a few chapters, about Bitcoin and crypto and blockchain. - -1512 -01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:18,760 -The guy profound... - -1513 -01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:21,760 -I mean, not profound, but he understands Bitcoin quite well. - -1514 -01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:22,760 -Interesting. - -1515 -01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:24,760 -Like, all the way to proof of work, why proof of work matters. - -1516 -01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:27,760 -Like, he understands it quite well. - -1517 -01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:29,760 -And he makes... - -1518 -01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:35,760 -He then just lamps Bitcoin with all of crypto, where he starts going off the rails. - -1519 -01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:42,760 -And he makes a very strong case against crypto, and including Bitcoin in it. - -1520 -01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:47,760 -But the strong case that he makes up against crypto is something that you could have written. - -1521 -01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:50,760 -It's something profound, well-written, - -1522 -01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:55,760 -and well-articulated arguments from a thoughtful person. - -1523 -01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:57,760 -He just happened to all think with Bitcoin. - -1524 -01:08:57,760 --> 01:08:58,760 -Yeah. - -1525 -01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:01,760 -The guy is a complete communist and a complete moron. - -1526 -01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,760 -I mean, many people said it's about me as well. - -1527 -01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,760 -You're a friend of ours. - -1528 -01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,760 -Shout-out and became, yeah. - -1529 -01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:11,760 -Shout-out and became. - -1530 -01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:13,760 -Shout-out and became. - -1531 -01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:24,760 -But if you remove the counter-arguments against crypto, you remove the author. - -1532 -01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,760 -You say, oh, yeah, I completely agree with this. - -1533 -01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:29,760 -The fact that this guy, this communist, wrote it. - -1534 -01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:31,760 -It doesn't change the fact. - -1535 -01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:32,760 -Yeah. - -1536 -01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:33,760 -It's funny how... - -1537 -01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:37,760 -Like, I just said before, it shouldn't matter where the information comes from. - -1538 -01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:41,760 -But I think I just changed my mind on it because it's... - -1539 -01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,760 -The additional context can completely change its meaning. - -1540 -01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:47,760 -So it kind of, it shouldn't matter, but it both... - -1541 -01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:49,760 -It matters and it doesn't matter at the same time. - -1542 -01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:50,760 -It matters in some cases. - -1543 -01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:51,760 -Yeah. - -1544 -01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:53,760 -It's, again, like, if... - -1545 -01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:55,760 -You know, like, you think it's an awesome statement, - -1546 -01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:57,760 -and then you find out, again, like, a hit-level audit, - -1547 -01:09:57,760 --> 01:09:59,760 -or whatever, it completely changes its meaning. - -1548 -01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:00,760 -It completely... - -1549 -01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:02,760 -It changes everything, basically. - -1550 -01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,760 -And so, yeah, again, I... - -1551 -01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:07,760 -I have zero answers to this stuff. - -1552 -01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:08,760 -It's... - -1553 -01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:09,760 -No solutions. - -1554 -01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:15,760 -Someone told me, like, it's always good to add context to the LLM prompts. - -1555 -01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:17,760 -You know, like, more context is always good. - -1556 -01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:18,760 -I'm not even sure if that's true. - -1557 -01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:19,760 -I don't think so. - -1558 -01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:21,760 -I don't think that's the case. - -1559 -01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:29,760 -Since now, we shift from being a win-only podcast to being an AI podcast as well. - -1560 -01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:32,760 -So, I mean, the obvious question that everybody's asking is, - -1561 -01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:35,760 -where does all of these leave us? - -1562 -01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,760 -Where will it go with the AI stuff, you mean? - -1563 -01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:43,760 -Yeah, with the AI stuff, and let's bake in an assumption of, like, - -1564 -01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:48,760 -a 10x, at least, improvement, I think that's a very easy consensus view - -1565 -01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,760 -that it can get 10x better in the next, whatever year. - -1566 -01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:54,760 -I would say that probably it's going to get, like, 100x better, at least. - -1567 -01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:55,760 -Yeah. - -1568 -01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:57,760 -I'm going to link to Vivek's AI arguments again, - -1569 -01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:02,760 -because I think he is one of the best and clearest thinkers, contemporary thinkers, - -1570 -01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:04,760 -on this topic right now. - -1571 -01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:10,760 -I think he's right that there are certain... - -1572 -01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:15,760 -So, he talks about meaning a lot. - -1573 -01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:17,760 -And how do we figure out what is meaningful? - -1574 -01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:20,760 -And it relates to, you know, okay, this quote is meaningful. - -1575 -01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:23,760 -Okay, I just found out that it was written by Hitler. - -1576 -01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:25,760 -No, it's not meaningful to me anymore. - -1577 -01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:30,760 -You know, like, meaning is the, how do we extract meaning from information - -1578 -01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:32,760 -is insanely hard. - -1579 -01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:36,760 -It's basically the AI problem in some sense, the general intelligence problem. - -1580 -01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:38,760 -It's the human problem. - -1581 -01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:44,760 -And more than that, I'm also going to, like, I love David Foster Wallace's commencement speech, - -1582 -01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:46,760 -and what the hell is water? - -1583 -01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:47,760 -Like, this is water. - -1584 -01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:48,760 -This is the title. - -1585 -01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:51,760 -And he talks about constructing meaning from experience. - -1586 -01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:59,760 -And so, the human experience levels out at the base in actual sensory experience. - -1587 -01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,760 -You're interacting and interfacing with the world. - -1588 -01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:09,760 -And so, we're making our use that to actually pass the threshold. - -1589 -01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,760 -You have to embody an AI. - -1590 -01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,760 -AI has to be embodied, and it has to be experiential. - -1591 -01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:17,760 -Like, it has to experience stuff. - -1592 -01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,760 -It has to experience the real world directly. - -1593 -01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,760 -And so, he mentions that we are at a decision point. - -1594 -01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:25,760 -Do we want to do this? - -1595 -01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:27,760 -And are we in the age of our AI overlords? - -1596 -01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:28,760 -Or no. - -1597 -01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:35,760 -And if they don't have bodies, in some sense, you need direct contact with reality - -1598 -01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:41,760 -to course correct, to literally stay on the ground. - -1599 -01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:43,760 -Listen to the metaphors that we use. - -1600 -01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:45,760 -You have to stay on the ground. - -1601 -01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:50,760 -You have to be in touch, in touch, in touch with the world and with reality. - -1602 -01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:52,760 -And so, AI's aren't that. - -1603 -01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:54,760 -That's why they hallucinate a lot, it bullshit a lot. - -1604 -01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,760 -And that's the thing about, like, highly creative people, for example. - -1605 -01:12:57,760 --> 01:12:58,760 -They hallucinate as well. - -1606 -01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:00,760 -And it's like, you can't go insane. - -1607 -01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:05,760 -Like, highly creative people, geniuses, the edge between genius and madman - -1608 -01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:07,760 -is a very, very thin one for that reason. - -1609 -01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,760 -If you're highly intelligent and highly creative, you might lose touch with reality. - -1610 -01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:15,760 -So, you need something that keeps you grounded and keeps you on the ground, - -1611 -01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:17,760 -which is, like, your body and those kind of things. - -1612 -01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:18,760 -Like, that's how it works. - -1613 -01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:22,760 -And so, AI has to, the AI stuff has to work in the same way, I think. - -1614 -01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:26,760 -And so, I don't think that, of course, our alone and LLM's alone - -1615 -01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:33,760 -will kind of drastically kind of, you know, lead us to the singularity or whatever, - -1616 -01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:34,760 -those kind of things. - -1617 -01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:35,760 -Like, I don't believe that anymore. - -1618 -01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,760 -But I think what's kind of in the very near term, - -1619 -01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:43,760 -I mean, we are at the tip of despair when it comes to at least, like, - -1620 -01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:47,760 -nostril development and kind of trying wild things on the nostocite, basically, you know? - -1621 -01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:51,760 -And I think, for our use case specifically, - -1622 -01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:57,760 -and we're just, you know, like one small, tiny niche of the niche subgroup on the internet, - -1623 -01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:02,760 -it will accelerate experimentation and exploration massively. - -1624 -01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:06,760 -And I think it will be, it will lower the cost of software development drastically. - -1625 -01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:09,760 -And I think we see this also in other areas where it just, like, - -1626 -01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:15,760 -it drives the cost down so much, like, stock photography, logo design, blog post writing, - -1627 -01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:16,760 -all those kind of things. - -1628 -01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:18,760 -Like, LLM's can do all of that very well. - -1629 -01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:21,760 -Writing documentation, like, summarizing technical documents and so on. - -1630 -01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:27,760 -It's like one prompt away and it does as good of a job that an intern would do. - -1631 -01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:31,760 -And so it just drives costs down massively and it accelerates stuff massively, - -1632 -01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:33,760 -which I think for us is good. - -1633 -01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:37,760 -And let me end on kind of, like, where I see it leading in terms from the economical side. - -1634 -01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:41,760 -It's like, I wrote, like, many, many years ago, it was a tweet. - -1635 -01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:43,760 -I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna post it in that tweet, - -1636 -01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,760 -but I'm gonna post it to nostril, I'm gonna write it again. - -1637 -01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:50,760 -And Bitcoin is Singularity Insurance. - -1638 -01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:51,760 -Oh, yeah. - -1639 -01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:57,760 -So it is the one thing where the machines can't make more of, - -1640 -01:14:57,760 --> 01:14:59,760 -which is really important. - -1641 -01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:03,760 -We were telling all these with our friend, Jeff, the one that came. - -1642 -01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:05,760 -Yes or the, all of these. - -1643 -01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:06,760 -Yeah. - -1644 -01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:08,760 -So, because it's extremely deflationary. - -1645 -01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:09,760 -Yeah. - -1646 -01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:10,760 -It is. - -1647 -01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:11,760 -The AI. - -1648 -01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:12,760 -It is. - -1649 -01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:13,760 -I mean, technology, I mean, that's Jeff Booth. - -1650 -01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:14,760 -Yeah. - -1651 -01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:15,760 -Not in the, not in the terms. - -1652 -01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:17,760 -Technology is inflationary period. - -1653 -01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:21,760 -But it's like, the only way to, for, for, for anyone, - -1654 -01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:25,760 -including AI, to make more Bitcoin, is to actually provide a useful service - -1655 -01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:28,760 -and make other people give you the Bitcoin voluntarily. - -1656 -01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:30,760 -It's the only way, basically. - -1657 -01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:31,760 -I mean, you know, crime excluded. - -1658 -01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,760 -But if you know what you're doing, it's very hard to steal someone's Bitcoin. - -1659 -01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:41,760 -And so, so, so I, I think we will have, like, that's where I see it going. - -1660 -01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:44,760 -You need to, you need to, economically speaking, - -1661 -01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:46,760 -you will need to protect your wealth with Bitcoin. - -1662 -01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:48,760 -I don't think there is another way because also, I mean, - -1663 -01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:52,760 -the European Union is openly talking about taking away everyone's saving - -1664 -01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:54,760 -for the public good, you know? - -1665 -01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:56,760 -So, so that's where we're heading. - -1666 -01:15:56,760 --> 01:16:03,760 -And, and I think, yeah, I, I, I view, I view it as a massive, - -1667 -01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:05,760 -accelerant, but both ways. - -1668 -01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,760 -Not only, like, it will accelerate everything. - -1669 -01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:10,760 -Not only the bad things and not only the good things, - -1670 -01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:12,760 -it will accelerate all the things. - -1671 -01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:14,760 -How do you say it? - -1672 -01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:23,760 -So, I mean, we, we've discussed this, but, um, the, what, what I see is how, - -1673 -01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:28,760 -I keep hearing, I keep hearing from developers that try the thing - -1674 -01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:30,760 -and see that it fucking works. - -1675 -01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:33,760 -Oh, fuck my, my job is done. - -1676 -01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:35,760 -I will not, I will not have a job. - -1677 -01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:39,760 -And, and I think that's largely true for a lot of people. - -1678 -01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:40,760 -Mm. - -1679 -01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:43,760 -But I think that's largely true for all the execution people. - -1680 -01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:46,760 -Like, all the execution people are done. - -1681 -01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:49,760 -Um, like coding pians, like, that work. - -1682 -01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:50,760 -Yes. - -1683 -01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:51,760 -Yeah. - -1684 -01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:52,760 -Creating. - -1685 -01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:54,760 -And, and inside is going to be more important going. - -1686 -01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:56,760 -It's going to be so much more important. - -1687 -01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:57,760 -And, and so accelerating. - -1688 -01:16:57,760 --> 01:16:58,760 -Yeah. - -1689 -01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:00,760 -I think also taste is going to be way more important. - -1690 -01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:04,760 -Like, again, knowing, knowing what to build and knowing kind of what is good. - -1691 -01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:07,760 -Like, separating the, the, the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. - -1692 -01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:09,760 -It's going to be very important. - -1693 -01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:15,760 -And, and I think also Bitcoin, the design of, like, the technical design of Bitcoin - -1694 -01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,760 -has incredibly important implications. - -1695 -01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:22,760 -Bitcoin could not be Bitcoin with a 10 second block time. - -1696 -01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:23,760 -It would be a different thing. - -1697 -01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:25,760 -I know a guy who wrote about this a lot. - -1698 -01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:26,760 -Like, in the day. - -1699 -01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:28,760 -One of these think boys. - -1700 -01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:29,760 -Yeah. - -1701 -01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:31,760 -Terrible communist. - -1702 -01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:43,760 -And I, I think there is, um, the, the technical, the, the values that emerged from the software, - -1703 -01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:46,760 -um, are in the realm of philosophy. - -1704 -01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:54,760 -Um, and I don't think I don't think the, the, the, the LMS are going to be able to. - -1705 -01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:57,760 -They don't have their own teleology to use passwords. - -1706 -01:17:57,760 --> 01:17:58,760 -Exactly. - -1707 -01:17:58,760 --> 01:17:59,760 -Yeah. - -1708 -01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:00,760 -They cannot assess. - -1709 -01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:01,760 -Why do you do something? - -1710 -01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:02,760 -Why do something? - -1711 -01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:03,760 -Yes. - -1712 -01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:04,760 -Why build it? - -1713 -01:18:04,760 --> 01:18:05,760 -Why do something? - -1714 -01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:06,760 -Why use it? - -1715 -01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:09,760 -They're not good at answering why questions in the, in the existential sense. - -1716 -01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:10,760 -Exactly. - -1717 -01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:11,760 -Exactly. - -1718 -01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:12,760 -And that is so important. - -1719 -01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:13,760 -Yeah. - -1720 -01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:17,760 -Because if Bitcoin shares had been prompted into existence with a 10 second block time, - -1721 -01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:18,760 -we would not have Bitcoin. - -1722 -01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:19,760 -Yeah. - -1723 -01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:20,760 -It would have been nothing. - -1724 -01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:21,760 -Yeah. - -1725 -01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:25,760 -I mean, the, the, the, why did Satoshi build Bitcoin? - -1726 -01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:27,760 -Like, he had his reasons. - -1727 -01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:29,760 -He articulated them very well. - -1728 -01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:32,760 -But I think it's fascinating about the, the, the, why of Bitcoin. - -1729 -01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:35,760 -It's like, he tried to solve like five problems at once. - -1730 -01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:39,760 -Like, even in the announcement post, like the two paragraphs of the announcement post mentioned, - -1731 -01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:41,760 -like a couple of problems all at once. - -1732 -01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:45,760 -It's like, it's, it's the, the, the micro payment problem, the privacy problem, - -1733 -01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:49,760 -the credit bubble problem, you know, the sound money problem. - -1734 -01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:50,760 -It's like insane. - -1735 -01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:53,760 -It's like he basically tried to hit like five flies with one stone. - -1736 -01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:55,760 -And he basically managed. - -1737 -01:18:55,760 --> 01:19:00,760 -I mean, micro payments took a little while, but everything else he basically managed. - -1738 -01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:07,760 -And, and I think the, yeah, the, but it's also the hardest question to ask yourself, right? - -1739 -01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:09,760 -Like, why, why, why do anything? - -1740 -01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:10,760 -Why do anything? - -1741 -01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:11,760 -Why stack sets? - -1742 -01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:13,760 -Why, like, what, what gives life meaning? - -1743 -01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:15,760 -Why do, why do anything at all? - -1744 -01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:16,760 -Why have kids? - -1745 -01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:17,760 -Why do anything? - -1746 -01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:24,760 -Like, why not just lay on the beach and, and sip margaritas all day or just like, whatever, you know? - -1747 -01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:30,760 -I mean, my answer would be like, have you tried, have you tried retiring for like two weeks? - -1748 -01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:34,760 -You have to do something. - -1749 -01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:41,760 -No, and that's also to the LLM's like actually doing something because it's very hard to start something new. - -1750 -01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:42,760 -It's very, very hard. - -1751 -01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:52,760 -But if the Internet taught us anything, it's like making stuff more accessible and easier to do will lead to a proliferation of like output, so to speak. - -1752 -01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:56,760 -It's like, we have more writers now than, than at any point in history. - -1753 -01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:00,760 -We have more people taking photographs than we had at any point in history. - -1754 -01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:04,760 -We have probably more software engineers and coders and stuff than at any point in history. - -1755 -01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:08,760 -And the more accessible the stuff becomes, I think it will unleash human creativity. - -1756 -01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:10,760 -I know that it does it for me. - -1757 -01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:12,760 -Like starting with like image prompting. - -1758 -01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:17,760 -It unleashed something in me and it brought me back to photography a little bit, for example. - -1759 -01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:21,760 -And also on the writing side, you know, like it's, it, it, it, it unleashed certain things for me. - -1760 -01:20:21,760 --> 01:20:23,760 -And now on the coding side as well. - -1761 -01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:27,760 -And someone just, I think it was, who was it? - -1762 -01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:30,760 -God damn it, I think it was Carnage. - -1763 -01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:50,760 -We're basically mentioning that, you know, like where at the point now where if you want to teach your kid another language, it's just like one prompt away that will auto-generate, you know, very good specifically designed for your needs course that you can just follow and apply. - -1764 -01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:55,760 -And so all you need now is motivation, basically. - -1765 -01:20:55,760 --> 01:21:03,760 -You just need to be motivated to do something and actually doing something is, I think, easier than it ever was. - -1766 -01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:11,760 -And I mean that in a very general sense because you can, you have, you have like a very knowledgeable assistant now that you can career at any time and it's like, - -1767 -01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:14,760 -Hey, I want to start a business in this jurisdiction. What are the steps I need to take? - -1768 -01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:17,760 -Hey, I want to launch an online thing and here is how it should work. - -1769 -01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:18,760 -What do I need to do? - -1770 -01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:22,760 -And it will do step-by-step guide you and do it, it will do it with you. - -1771 -01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:33,760 -And with the, you know, like Chinese stuff that's coming out right now with like the next iteration of those things will actually do the things for you, like in a meaningful way, help you do that. - -1772 -01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:36,760 -And I think it will unleash a lot of stuff. - -1773 -01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:47,760 -With going back to the point that you made about the number of authors of writers and we have more writers now than any point in history. - -1774 -01:21:47,760 --> 01:22:02,760 -Yes, but I think the fact that the distribution channel has been the internet for the most part in the past couple of decades and it has all been funneled into - -1775 -01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:07,760 -two, three, five, ten different platforms that - -1776 -01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:11,760 -demand a certain shape. - -1777 -01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:12,760 -Yeah. - -1778 -01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:17,760 -Even though we have a larger number, there is also a crisis of sameness, right? - -1779 -01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:18,760 -Yeah. - -1780 -01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:20,760 -It all kind of sounds the same as the same structure. - -1781 -01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:23,760 -That's a crisis of quality in some sense also, right? - -1782 -01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:26,760 -It's like we have the quantity, but we don't necessarily have the quantity. - -1783 -01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:37,760 -But I think that's what's absolutely fascinating because you know that my wife is very much into the world of indie writers and indie publishers writing fiction and stuff like that. - -1784 -01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:44,760 -And she's been, she went to a few of these conferences for indie writers and self-published authors that they have. - -1785 -01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:50,760 -And 95% of the content of the conference is about marketing. - -1786 -01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:58,760 -Not about the craft, not about how to create tension and plots and all these things, which are fascinating topics. - -1787 -01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:01,760 -It's all about how do you rank enough? - -1788 -01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:02,760 -Yeah. - -1789 -01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:03,760 -It is 100% about that, right? - -1790 -01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:04,760 -How do you gain the algorithm? - -1791 -01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:05,760 -How do you gain the algorithm? - -1792 -01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:15,760 -And what is interesting is that every single person agrees that the game is a numbers game, you have to publish a book every four months. - -1793 -01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:17,760 -Just write what you can write. - -1794 -01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:19,760 -I mean, that explains the quality crisis. - -1795 -01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:20,760 -Yeah, 100%. - -1796 -01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:21,760 -Don't edit. - -1797 -01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:25,760 -Just go to market every four months, because if you have 20 books, it's good. - -1798 -01:23:25,760 --> 01:23:26,760 -But if you have 30, it's better. - -1799 -01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:27,760 -Yeah. - -1800 -01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:30,760 -I mean, everyone, does any kind of content production knows this? - -1801 -01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:34,760 -Like you have to just last it out constantly, relentlessly and so on. - -1802 -01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:36,760 -Do you have any resemblance of success in today's world? - -1803 -01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:45,760 -But now, kind of like a gun, the fact that you can prompt 10 books a day, easily, 10 books a day. - -1804 -01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:48,760 -And you can have aliens, Asians, that publish your books. - -1805 -01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:49,760 -Sure. - -1806 -01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:50,760 -Completely flattens the time. - -1807 -01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:52,760 -It doesn't matter if you know you can write 50 books a day. - -1808 -01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:59,760 -It was actually my first thought when I played around with LLM Tax Generation, like when was it like two years ago or whatever. - -1809 -01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:04,760 -Like, you should focus on a market where people just would not know this. - -1810 -01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:05,760 -Like, right? - -1811 -01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:06,760 -I don't know. - -1812 -01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:13,760 -Like, vampire love story novels geared towards like 60 plus women crowd or whatever. - -1813 -01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:16,760 -Like, like, you know, like my mom, basically. - -1814 -01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:21,760 -We're always my mom because she doesn't know about this stuff. - -1815 -01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:27,760 -She wouldn't even, if you would tell her like she maybe wouldn't believe that it's all degenerated or she wouldn't care. - -1816 -01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:33,760 -And you can't just crank out like at least a book a day and just like just blast it out. - -1817 -01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:43,760 -I'm sure people do that by the way, but it's interesting that, again, like lowering the barrier to entry is not always good. - -1818 -01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:48,760 -So everything I said, like take everything, always everything I say with a large grain of salt. - -1819 -01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:53,760 -Because it's, it's, yeah, I don't know. - -1820 -01:24:53,760 --> 01:25:01,760 -I mean, I think Bitcoin counterbalances that in some way because if you have patronage and you're not, you're not, you don't have to make money to survive, - -1821 -01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:04,760 -then you can focus on something and create something amazing. - -1822 -01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:06,760 -And we see this in the world of artists, Bitcoin artists. - -1823 -01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:12,760 -Like, you're fractal and crypto, for example, who will work on a single piece for like two years. - -1824 -01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:15,760 -And put all his heart and soul into it, because he can. - -1825 -01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:19,760 -Because he can monetarily speaking and he can, like financially speaking and so on. - -1826 -01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:21,760 -And I think, I think it's no accident. - -1827 -01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:22,760 -Safedine talks about this a lot. - -1828 -01:25:22,760 --> 01:25:30,760 -It's no accident that the ballot pocket, the, the, the period of the gold standard had insane artistic output. - -1829 -01:25:30,760 --> 01:25:32,760 -And like very, very, very high quality. - -1830 -01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:41,760 -And we had a lot of, again, like lots of this stuff was, was financed with very wealthy patrons, which we're able to accumulate capital and actually save and so on - -1831 -01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:43,760 -because it was just, you were able to do that. - -1832 -01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:46,760 -But yeah, I don't know. I don't, I don't have a better answer. - -1833 -01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:49,760 -It's, it's, it's definitely weird fucking times, man. - -1834 -01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:50,760 -It's really weird. - -1835 -01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:51,760 -It's fucking weird. - -1836 -01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:52,760 -It's really weird. - -1837 -01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:53,760 -I need such an accelerated base too. - -1838 -01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:54,760 -Yeah. - -1839 -01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:58,760 -Like I didn't, in 10 years, it's going to be fucking impossible to recognize. - -1840 -01:25:58,760 --> 01:26:01,760 -I mean, I think we'll also have like hyper personalized niche stuff. - -1841 -01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:07,760 -That's, that's kind of a side effect of the internet that I didn't predict back in the day where it's just like, - -1842 -01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:10,760 -the internet actually basically fractured society in a massive way. - -1843 -01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:13,760 -Because you actually can't find your people now way easier. - -1844 -01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:21,760 -We're still, we're still, you know, like very communal clan tribe like people. - -1845 -01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:23,760 -And it doesn't matter how crazy you are. - -1846 -01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:26,760 -You'll, you'll find another thousand people online that are just like you. - -1847 -01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:27,760 -It doesn't matter what your niche is. - -1848 -01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:34,760 -And now, for example, Joe, like he's using the, like, he's prompting songs into existence. - -1849 -01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:37,760 -And they are, they're actually like they slap. - -1850 -01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:38,760 -They're, they're not bad. - -1851 -01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:40,760 -And it's like songs about summer engineering. - -1852 -01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:45,760 -It was like, you know, inside jokes of like the 20 people that are here basically. - -1853 -01:26:45,760 --> 01:26:46,760 -It's, it's really weird. - -1854 -01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:57,760 -And, and I think like Paul had this idea also of, you know, like, like just building very, very, very specific user experiences. - -1855 -01:26:57,760 --> 01:26:58,760 -Like very specific apps. - -1856 -01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:02,760 -Just like for a very small group of people or even for yourself. - -1857 -01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:04,760 -And kind of making that easier. - -1858 -01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:07,760 -And maybe, I don't know, it's, it's so strange. - -1859 -01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:11,760 -It's, because I think we will have that. - -1860 -01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:17,760 -I think we will also have like hyper personalized stories or like very niche stories and content and all that kind of stuff. - -1861 -01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:21,760 -Oh, I think, I think that the Kindle is going to turn into a device that just creates a story. - -1862 -01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:22,760 -A book just for you. - -1863 -01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:23,760 -Just for you for now. - -1864 -01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:26,760 -But, but, but I think, I think we also, we will have the counterbalance. - -1865 -01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:31,760 -We have, like, why do we tell the same stories over the course of human history? - -1866 -01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:33,760 -Over and over and over again. - -1867 -01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:34,760 -Absolutely. - -1868 -01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:35,760 -And again, like Vivek, he talks about this a lot. - -1869 -01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:37,760 -Jonathan Perchow also talks about this a lot. - -1870 -01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:40,760 -It's like there, there is, there are very deep truths embedded in this story. - -1871 -01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:46,760 -They are like narrative truths and mythological truths in the sense of mythos. - -1872 -01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:51,760 -Not in the sense of it being untrue, but in the sense of like this will teach you something. - -1873 -01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:52,760 -Yeah. - -1874 -01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:53,760 -And it's always the same thing. - -1875 -01:27:53,760 --> 01:28:00,760 -So if you know this story, then you can hopefully learn something from it and not repay the same mistakes that humans always, - -1876 -01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:04,760 -have made for the last like 10,000 plus years. - -1877 -01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:12,760 -And so, I'm not sure if the deep truths will be embedded in the hyper-personalized stuff. - -1878 -01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:13,760 -I don't know. - -1879 -01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:14,760 -Who knows? - -1880 -01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:18,760 -Yeah, I think that's what's, I find this whole tension interesting. - -1881 -01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:23,760 -And with regards to the highly personalized, I think I told you that I think we're going to end up. - -1882 -01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:28,760 -And I'm pretty sure that we're going to end up with every single person has a client, - -1883 -01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:32,760 -and the applications are custom built for that one person. - -1884 -01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:36,760 -They're only recently, we all have to use the same interface. - -1885 -01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:42,760 -The exact same apps is because it's just not cost efficient to build an apps just for you. - -1886 -01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:43,760 -Yeah. - -1887 -01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:46,760 -I'm sure there would be things about, I'll think things. - -1888 -01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:48,760 -I actually would like to change. - -1889 -01:28:48,760 --> 01:28:49,760 -I will. - -1890 -01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:50,760 -I will. - -1891 -01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:51,760 -It's going to be my next experiment now. - -1892 -01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:52,760 -But no, you can. - -1893 -01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:53,760 -I'm going to buy code PR's. - -1894 -01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:56,760 -I'm going to make everyone's lifestyle, man. - -1895 -01:28:56,760 --> 01:29:01,760 -But the thing is that if the PR's don't get accepted, it really does not even matter at all. - -1896 -01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:02,760 -Yeah, I can. - -1897 -01:29:02,760 --> 01:29:03,760 -I can just change it. - -1898 -01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:04,760 -You can just change it for yourself. - -1899 -01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:07,760 -And every single person can change the code for themselves. - -1900 -01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:08,760 -Yeah. - -1901 -01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:10,760 -So you could, you could grab, I'm a fool. - -1902 -01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:14,760 -I mean, but, but again, like there is, that's, that's like a spectrum of extremes. - -1903 -01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:17,760 -It's like everyone uses the same app or everyone has their own app. - -1904 -01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:24,760 -And I think we'll find a sweet spot in the middle where, where it's, because it is, because actually changing time is still scarce. - -1905 -01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:25,760 -You know? - -1906 -01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:28,760 -And like also prompting takes time and so on and all those kinds of things. - -1907 -01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:32,760 -And it is way more efficient if we use the same thing and if we distribute it to more people and so on. - -1908 -01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:33,760 -You know what I'm trying to say? - -1909 -01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:40,760 -It's also, it's also, it's way more efficient to have a shared language than it has, like every person has their own language. - -1910 -01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:42,760 -Oh, no, no, I agree. - -1911 -01:29:42,760 --> 01:29:44,760 -I completely agree. - -1912 -01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:49,760 -And I also fully agree with the fact that if we... - -1913 -01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:51,760 -By the way, should we grab a coffee soon? - -1914 -01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:55,760 -My food really hurts and I'm also, you know, the same old, same old. - -1915 -01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:57,760 -I'm sure we blasted past 90 minutes. - -1916 -01:29:57,760 --> 01:29:59,760 -I still have the wind ringing in my ears. - -1917 -01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:02,760 -My food is hurting. I'm dehydrated. - -1918 -01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:05,760 -I really need to pee. It's all, all at the same time. - -1919 -01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:08,760 -Very much embodied conversation, so. - -1920 -01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:16,760 -But yeah, no, I hope that we'll find a sweet spot in some sense where it's just easier to... - -1921 -01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:17,760 -I hope... - -1922 -01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:19,760 -Yeah, I don't know. - -1923 -01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:28,760 -The one thing I talked with Paul about that I hope it will bring, it should be easier to... - -1924 -01:30:28,760 --> 01:30:30,760 -I hope that it will also hypercharge human expression. - -1925 -01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:40,760 -And I hope that Noster will also allow people to express themselves freely in all kinds of forms. - -1926 -01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:47,760 -Because I think globally and especially in the last couple of years, we had a massive chilling effect on all the online platforms. - -1927 -01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:49,760 -I still have it, like on YouTube, for example. - -1928 -01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:51,760 -There's creators that really... - -1929 -01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:57,760 -Their whole game is to skate the line of demonetization and deplatforming. - -1930 -01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:00,760 -Because that's the most interesting edgy content. - -1931 -01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:03,760 -It doesn't matter if it's political or sexual or whatever. - -1932 -01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:06,760 -Like on Twitch, you have streamers that are insanely sexual. - -1933 -01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:13,760 -It's like Twitch, it's almost like, you know, like a campgirl site, like some sections of Twitch and so on. - -1934 -01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:19,760 -What can you do live on stream, but you still won't get the platform and those kind of things. - -1935 -01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:21,760 -And I think... - -1936 -01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:33,760 -In the political arena, for example, most of the political discourse happened online in the last 10 years period. - -1937 -01:31:33,760 --> 01:31:35,760 -Most of it happened on Twitter. - -1938 -01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:40,760 -Just by happenstance, the subset of people that used Twitter that were part of the political discourse, - -1939 -01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:45,760 -like journalists and politicians and so on, they all were on Twitter. - -1940 -01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:50,760 -And I think there was a massive... - -1941 -01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:55,760 -And I think there still is a chilling effect, in some sense. - -1942 -01:31:55,760 --> 01:31:59,760 -Even with the change in power, you know, you don't... - -1943 -01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:04,760 -If you want to openly shit on Trump or Elon, - -1944 -01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:06,760 -x.com is not the tool, I think. - -1945 -01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:09,760 -People won't go there to do that. - -1946 -01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:14,760 -And the other thing I... - -1947 -01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:19,760 -Yeah, I don't know. My brain is pretty fried, as you can tell. - -1948 -01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:26,760 -But I think the current structure of the online platforms and of farming... - -1949 -01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:30,760 -Your attention, farming your eyeballs and your brain cycles - -1950 -01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:34,760 -also led to the divisiveness, because the algorithms always rank engagement highest. - -1951 -01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:36,760 -And that's how we... - -1952 -01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:40,760 -Oh, there's a lot of engagement around it. That's why it's interesting. - -1953 -01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:44,760 -That's why I did... You wouldn't set up a car crash talk, because it's like... - -1954 -01:32:44,760 --> 01:32:49,760 -A car crash produces a lot of engagement, but it doesn't mean that it's a good thing, - -1955 -01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:52,760 -or it doesn't mean that you actually want to look at it. - -1956 -01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:54,760 -But it's... - -1957 -01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:56,760 -Yeah, I don't know. - -1958 -01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:00,760 -I think the current environment is just parasitical on humanity, - -1959 -01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:04,760 -and I hope that we can get out of that destructive loop in some sense. - -1960 -01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:07,760 -And I think Nostra has to play a role, and I think Bitcoin has to play a role. - -1961 -01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:08,760 -Oh, 100%. - -1962 -01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:11,760 -That's just my thesis, and I think... - -1963 -01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:12,760 -Speech and money, right? - -1964 -01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:14,760 -Yeah, and speech and money. - -1965 -01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:17,760 -Yeah, let's spend some money. We did the speech part. - -1966 -01:33:17,760 --> 01:33:25,760 -But that's the point of these dialogues to explore all that and kind of try to wrap our heads around - -1967 -01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:29,760 -what is currently happening, and it has been happening for the last couple of years. - -1968 -01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:33,760 -I mean, especially with our point of view with civil engineering, - -1969 -01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:40,760 -I think we are kind of seeing the ground being laid of some reality. - -1970 -01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,760 -Yeah. - -1971 -01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:44,760 -So, yeah, it's just processing these... - -1972 -01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:46,760 -What would people still don't know what saps are? - -1973 -01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:47,760 -Yeah. - -1974 -01:33:47,760 --> 01:33:53,760 -And we've been embedded in the sap world for a long time, - -1975 -01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:57,760 -and just by that, by being immersed in that, - -1976 -01:33:57,760 --> 01:34:03,760 -I think we figured out some of the things of how could this stuff be useful for a wider audience and so on. - -1977 -01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:09,760 -And that's why I was very eager to open up these conversations that were already happening, - -1978 -01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:13,760 -and just, again, just hit record and fucking send it. - -1979 -01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:19,760 -And with that being said, I probably just, again, recorded only like whatever was happening in my pocket. - -1980 -01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:27,760 -And I have to go back to the device recording and fix all of it, like in manual labor. - -1981 -01:34:27,760 --> 01:34:30,760 -But I'm building an LLM pipeline now for all the things. - -1982 -01:34:30,760 --> 01:34:36,760 -It's going to be, I hope, by last demo day, that's what I want to show off, actually, spoiler alert. - -1983 -01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:38,760 -It's going to be fully automated, everything. - -1984 -01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:40,760 -It's just like hit record. - -1985 -01:34:40,760 --> 01:34:42,760 -We won't even have to speak. - -1986 -01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:46,760 -No, that's the one thing I don't want to abstract away. - -1987 -01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:48,760 -That's the one thing I don't want to abstract away. - -1988 -01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:50,760 -And that's the thing. - -1989 -01:34:50,760 --> 01:34:51,760 -What should you automate? - -1990 -01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:52,760 -What can you automate? - -1991 -01:34:52,760 --> 01:34:53,760 -What should the machine do? - -1992 -01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:54,760 -And what should the human? - -1993 -01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:56,760 -And we've spoken about this many times in the past. - -1994 -01:34:56,760 --> 01:35:02,760 -If you abstract key management away, if you remove the private key from the humans, then that's really bad. - -1995 -01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:03,760 -You should never do that. - -1996 -01:35:03,760 --> 01:35:06,760 -That's then you're rebuilding Coinbase and the banks and all this kind of stuff. - -1997 -01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:13,760 -And I think also, you should not remove the human spirit just by making use of LLMs. - -1998 -01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:18,760 -The impulse, and I think Paul has the right thinking about this. - -1999 -01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:21,760 -It's like the teleology of the whole thing. - -2000 -01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:30,760 -It has to come, in his words, I think I don't want to put words in his mouth, but from the Christian perspective, it has to come from God, basically. - -2001 -01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:41,760 -I'm not sure what I would identify as, but I would say it's like the human impulse that the human spirit should remain in charge. - -2002 -01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:46,760 -And what's so interesting right now is like, I'm not even sure if that's true right now. - -2003 -01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:49,760 -To me, because the contents are in charge. - -2004 -01:35:49,760 --> 01:35:50,760 -Absolutely. - -2005 -01:35:50,760 --> 01:35:52,760 -Or the money printer is in charge. - -2006 -01:35:52,760 --> 01:36:01,760 -You know, like pick your kind of poison, but it's, again, why didn't Google had to remove? - -2007 -01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:02,760 -Don't be evil. - -2008 -01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:03,760 -Why? - -2009 -01:36:03,760 --> 01:36:04,760 -Who was in charge of this? - -2010 -01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:08,760 -But what I'm trying to say is Google itself. - -2011 -01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:10,760 -Google had to. - -2012 -01:36:10,760 --> 01:36:12,760 -Google, the entity had to remove it. - -2013 -01:36:12,760 --> 01:36:14,760 -It wasn't Serjay or whatever, I think. - -2014 -01:36:14,760 --> 01:36:15,760 -You know what I mean? - -2015 -01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:16,760 -Yes. - -2016 -01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:17,760 -And that is the point. - -2017 -01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:20,760 -When you say in charge, you don't mean an authority. - -2018 -01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:22,760 -You mean some kind of entity. - -2019 -01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:24,760 -I made the same joke the last time. - -2020 -01:36:24,760 --> 01:36:25,760 -It's like, in my household, who is in charge? - -2021 -01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:26,760 -It's the fucking cats. - -2022 -01:36:26,760 --> 01:36:32,760 -Because if the cats need to be fed or want to get out, it's like, I have to get up my ass and so on. - -2023 -01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:34,760 -Or like, if you have a baby, who is in charge? - -2024 -01:36:34,760 --> 01:36:35,760 -The baby is in charge. - -2025 -01:36:35,760 --> 01:36:36,760 -You know what I mean? - -2026 -01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:39,760 -And that's why we are in a symbiotic relationship. - -2027 -01:36:39,760 --> 01:36:41,760 -It's a symbiotic relationship with technology. - -2028 -01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:48,760 -And I think right now, technology is parasitic on humanity, especially in the attention economy, especially with the online platforms and this kind of stuff. - -2029 -01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:49,760 -Same with money. - -2030 -01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:54,760 -Money is a psycho technology that enables distributed cognition and coordination on a massive scale. - -2031 -01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:57,760 -We have to use money to function as a society. - -2032 -01:36:57,760 --> 01:37:02,760 -Otherwise, it's just like Dunbar's number, 150 people or less clans that fight each other all the time. - -2033 -01:37:02,760 --> 01:37:05,760 -It's like money brings in money, as you're saying, peace, period. - -2034 -01:37:05,760 --> 01:37:07,760 -And I mean, all the Bitcoin is not it. - -2035 -01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:09,760 -Our money is so insanely broken. - -2036 -01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:11,760 -We are in a relationship with money. - -2037 -01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:15,760 -I wouldn't even call it a symbiotic relationship. - -2038 -01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:17,760 -It's a completely parasitic relationship. - -2039 -01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:19,760 -Like, fiat money. - -2040 -01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:23,760 -The relationship that humanity has with money right now is a relationship with fiat money. - -2041 -01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:25,760 -And it breaks so many things. - -2042 -01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:26,760 -It's like insane. - -2043 -01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:30,760 -And I think with technology, especially network technology, it's very similar. - -2044 -01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:31,760 -It's very, very similar. - -2045 -01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:35,760 -But it's like all the platforms and all the things and everything that we discuss here all the time. - -2046 -01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:37,760 -Also, app stores and all this kind of stuff. - -2047 -01:37:37,760 --> 01:37:41,760 -It's kind of maximizing for the wrong thing. - -2048 -01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:48,760 -And I'm not even sure if we want to maximize for anything except for meaning or human experience. - -2049 -01:37:48,760 --> 01:37:49,760 -Yeah. - -2050 -01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:50,760 -I don't maximize the margins. - -2051 -01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:51,760 -Maximize. - -2052 -01:37:51,760 --> 01:37:52,760 -Jishi. - -2053 -01:37:52,760 --> 01:37:53,760 -Exactly. - -2054 -01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:55,760 -I can't tell you what you should maximize. - -2055 -01:37:55,760 --> 01:37:56,760 -Exactly. - -2056 -01:37:56,760 --> 01:37:57,760 -Exactly. - -2057 -01:37:57,760 --> 01:37:59,760 -But I think one last point. - -2058 -01:37:59,760 --> 01:38:00,760 -Sorry. - -2059 -01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:01,760 -But I think... - -2060 -01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:02,760 -I'm fainting. - -2061 -01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:03,760 -No, no. - -2062 -01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:04,760 -It's good. - -2063 -01:38:04,760 --> 01:38:07,760 -I think Noster is such a perfect canvas for this. - -2064 -01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:08,760 -Yeah. - -2065 -01:38:08,760 --> 01:38:14,760 -Because the fact is that within a spectrum of a platform, you can experiment, but you're - -2066 -01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:16,760 -constrained but what you cannot change. - -2067 -01:38:16,760 --> 01:38:19,760 -And the distribution of the data, you cannot change. - -2068 -01:38:19,760 --> 01:38:23,760 -You were still asking API.Twitter for the data. - -2069 -01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:26,760 -Whereas in Noster, you are gathering the data. - -2070 -01:38:26,760 --> 01:38:29,760 -And asking for the data, you are going and getting the data. - -2071 -01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:30,760 -And it's very different. - -2072 -01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:31,760 -Yeah. - -2073 -01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:35,760 -Because you can do so many different things that you cannot do if you cannot just change - -2074 -01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:36,760 -the API. - -2075 -01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:38,760 -It's the switch between active and passive. - -2076 -01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:41,760 -And it's the switch of being your own man or being a surf. - -2077 -01:38:41,760 --> 01:38:42,760 -Yes. - -2078 -01:38:42,760 --> 01:38:43,760 -That's the difference. - -2079 -01:38:43,760 --> 01:38:44,760 -Shall we get a coffee? - -2080 -01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:45,760 -Let's do it. - -2081 -01:38:45,760 --> 01:38:46,760 -Gimme a hug. - -2082 -01:38:46,760 --> 01:38:47,760 -We survived. - -2083 -01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:48,760 -We survived the wind. - -2084 -01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:50,760 -We survived the bus stop. - -2085 -01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:53,760 -Let me switch it off right now. - -2086 -01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:54,760 -Man, I'm done. - -2087 -01:38:54,760 --> 01:38:55,760 -All right. - -2088 -01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:56,760 -Okay. - -2089 -01:38:56,760 --> 01:38:57,760 -Press here. - -2090 -01:38:57,760 --> 01:38:58,760 -Press here. - -2091 -01:38:58,760 --> 01:38:59,760 -All right. - -2092 -01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:01,760 -That was a very weird feeling. - -2093 -01:39:01,760 --> 01:39:02,760 -Yeah. - -2094 -01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:06,760 -I didn't even press record here, so that's good. - -2095 -01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:07,760 -I guess. - -2096 -01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:08,760 -Fantastic. - -2097 -01:39:08,760 --> 01:39:11,760 -We'll manage one day. - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/07 - Zig Multiplatform - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/07 - Zig Multiplatform - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index 5b0a246c..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/07 - Zig Multiplatform - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,36 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "Zig Multiplatform" (Episode 07) - -**Context:** A deep dive into developer tooling—especially the Zig language/tool-chain—and how local-first, file-centric workflows align with Sovereign Engineering principles. - -## Core Themes & Insights - -1. **Convention over Configuration & File-Centric Truth** - • Prefer simple, predictable directory structures over hidden databases. - • Files are Lindy: easy to reason about, sync, duplicate, and back up. - • Bitcoin itself embodies this—block files are the ground-truth. - -2. **Local Pipelines & Offline Autonomy** - • Goal: phone records audio → auto-sync via SyncThing/Torrent → local transcription → one-touch publish to Blossom/Nostr. - • Emphasises owning the entire build/publish flow without SaaS dependencies. - -3. **Zig as Cross-Platform Lever** - • Zig's builtin cross-compilation simplifies shipping the same CLI on macOS, Linux, ARM, etc. - • Static binaries reduce "works-on-my-machine" friction—key for cohorts sharing tools quickly. - -4. **Fuse/Virtual FS Ideas for Blossom** - • Discuss turning Blossom storage into a mounted drive à la Dropbox—editing a file locally auto-publishes to decentralized storage. - • Raises deduplication/versioning challenges (typo vs new file); mirrors Sovereign Engineering explorations of trade-offs. - -5. **Start Ugly & Iterate** - • Pipeline will begin as a ThinkPad + scripts; polish later. - • Echoes cohort mantra: ship, demo, improve. - -## Relevance to Sovereign Engineering Cohorts - -• Provide participants with self-contained Zig binaries for shared utilities—no dependency hell. -• Encourage file-based project layouts; makes syncing via Nostr/Blossom trivial. -• Showcase end-to-end local pipelines as templates for "build, ship, own" philosophy. - ---- - -By marrying Zig's cross-platform tooling with file-first workflows and decentralized storage, Sovereign Engineering builders can own every step—from keystroke to published artifact—without cloud lock-in or fragile configs. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/07 - Zig Multiplatform.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/07 - Zig Multiplatform.srt deleted file mode 100644 index beddd6f1..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/07 - Zig Multiplatform.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,9600 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,800 -there are no secrets the only secret is to hit record yeah and then send it so - -2 -00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:11,800 -I told you about my by-blind I'm also building out a pipeline for the - -3 -00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:18,600 -recordings so I hope that very soon I'll just have to press record press save - -4 -00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:24,640 -and then like do a using Fia Jeff's the NUC you know like NAK do like a - -5 -00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:29,200 -touch publish and then everything is gonna be done you know how it works it's - -6 -00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,640 -just like you mount your file system you have it so so basically you get the - -7 -00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:39,320 -foot like the the pipeline makes a fully ready version yes yes and you just - -8 -00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,400 -have to decide when to when to publish because it's gonna the mp3 file is on - -9 -00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,160 -my phone you are the one of the biggest file system maxes I'm a file I love - -10 -00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:54,200 -files you love the files are Lindy and the and hierarchical files yes files are - -11 -00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:59,080 -Lindy and and I'm a big like convention over configuration guy yeah so the - -12 -00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:04,560 -way it works what is what does that mean exactly it's it's it's basically I - -13 -00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,480 -don't want to configure stuff I just want the system to tell me how it works - -14 -00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,260 -yeah and I want to have a file structure and things and and that's just how it - -15 -00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:15,500 -works yeah if you do it wrong everything breaks yeah it's it's rails was a big - -16 -00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:20,080 -conventional okay yeah yeah yeah it's just like you know this is if you have a - -17 -00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:26,280 -model name you do things around here you know and and you have to there is no - -18 -00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:30,480 -other way and so so what I want to have is like again like press record press - -19 -00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:35,480 -safe there's an mp3 file on my phone yeah it syncs using torrents with all my - -20 -00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,200 -other devices everything is run locally like this already it syncs using - -21 -00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,040 -torrent because sync thing uses torrent on it really yeah it does as far as I - -22 -00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,040 -know yes Wow I hope I'm not wrong but it's it's used back in the day when I - -23 -00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,360 -learned about it that's what I learned but but but we'll we'll someone will - -24 -00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,880 -yell is kind of interesting I was thinking about like blossom stuff I - -25 -00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,000 -forget what exactly I was wondering like what if you just changed a little bit - -26 -00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,560 -of the file like how can we make that like if I wanted to store because I was - -27 -00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,240 -thinking a little bit about like making like a Dropbox type thing yeah on blossom - -28 -00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,800 -yeah and it would be like with this this few is just like a fuels fuse file - -29 -00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,200 -system thing yeah like that's basically the drop boxes yeah it's like a virtual - -30 -00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,800 -file system that you that is mounted you don't see that but I think that's what - -31 -00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,360 -it is and like you could just totally do that where everything is saved on blossom - -32 -00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:28,560 -right yeah it is and the problem is like okay so you have a word document and you - -33 -00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,200 -just add a little bit to it unless you know so there's something I can't think - -34 -00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,120 -of an example but like a big thing like let's see you have a big video and you - -35 -00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,960 -just crop one minute one second off the end right do you save the entire thing - -36 -00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,960 -back up to awesome no it's that's the issue I talked about this with Pablo - -37 -00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,880 -just a couple days ago with kind of the the go-to example I use is like let's - -38 -00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,280 -say you have an article the very simple just a text and then you fix a typo yeah - -39 -00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,000 -yeah is it a new thing yeah like in the in the cryptographic hash as well it's a - -40 -00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,160 -new thing yeah but you still have like you have proximity hashes and those kind - -41 -00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,240 -of things where you can mitigate that yeah it's a very hard problem it's like - -42 -00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,640 -a speciation problem so you can't really solve it when is something because when - -43 -00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:12,160 -when do you make the kind of when is it just like yeah a typo fix or when is - -44 -00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,080 -it when is it a completely new thing yeah but this is one of the things that - -45 -00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,200 -makes Dropbox kind of good I bet this is one of things that makes things good - -46 -00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:24,200 -is that it doesn't necessarily clobber you know I think that the thing that - -47 -00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:29,480 -makes think good is it's very easy to reason about yeah I think that's I - -48 -00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,880 -think and I think that's important for systems in general that's why I love - -49 -00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,440 -files so much because they are easy to reason about it's like I have the file - -50 -00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:44,880 -I know like I can do stuff with it yeah and and I use the file system as a - -51 -00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,040 -source of truth a lot I don't like things that scan through files and build - -52 -00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,400 -databases yeah because the stuff is always like out of sync yeah like the - -53 -00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,000 -file disappears or is corrupt or something and still in the database and - -54 -00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,840 -then it's like what do you do yeah and and so I just I just want to use that - -55 -00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,440 -the actual ground truth as my source of truth yeah that's also what Bitcoin does - -56 -00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,720 -well yeah like it actually like there is no abstraction in between it's just - -57 -00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:14,120 -yeah it's the thing let's walk down here otherwise it's gonna be noisy but but - -58 -00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,600 -anyway like speaking of the pipeline I'm currently building out it's like I - -59 -00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,200 -just want to hit save there's an mp3 file it's gonna land on one of my - -60 -00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:25,000 -computers that's just always running and always on right now it's a shitty old - -61 -00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,720 -thinkpad that basically explodes once it runs in L.L.A. but but anyway like you - -62 -00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,320 -do you do an auto transcription local model you have a txt file that is the - -63 -00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,920 -transcription yeah and an srt file because that's what the podcast plays - -64 -00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:46,800 -expect and so on and does an srt file yeah yeah yeah yeah but but that's fine - -65 -00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,640 -like all the all the all those things all those tools it's just like a real - -66 -00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:54,300 -basic text format yes yeah I remember dealing with these on on with the - -67 -00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:59,440 -subtitles and also other things but but the point is like I want to have like - -68 -00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:05,400 -super simple again like the idea of the Unix tools of of Noster that we talked - -69 -00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,800 -about in the past but it's just like this does one thing it creates a - -70 -00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,120 -transcript the next thing the next step in the pipelines like you take the - -71 -00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:17,000 -transcript and you create a summary yeah yeah and and the summary like that the - -72 -00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,880 -summarizer it has to know that it's like a a transcript of a dialogue because - -73 -00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,840 -then it can summarize like there's two people in the conversation these were - -74 -00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:28,680 -the main topics and so on I'm currently building another pipeline which I'm - -75 -00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,880 -calling the by-blind yes where it's like I have an idea for an app cursor can - -76 -00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,280 -probably one shot it yeah and here's the idea and I talk about the idea for - -77 -00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:41,960 -two minutes yes and it's like you know I want to build it you're inspired now so - -78 -00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,800 -you want a problem now you don't want it you don't have prompt when you're - -79 -00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,880 -sitting at the computer no I when you have no inspiration I did this in the - -80 -00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,000 -last couple days and I'm usually most inspired when I step out of the shower - -81 -00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,840 -yeah and then I talk into the microphone for like three minutes everything - -82 -00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:57,720 -happens in the background the other ones the other ones are very responsive to - -83 -00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:04,360 -inspiration yes yeah yeah they respect a moment of true inspiration if you if - -84 -00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:10,520 -you come to them kind of without without freshly kissed by the muse yeah yeah - -85 -00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,000 -with that with it we have like unloved by the muse they won't they won't they - -86 -00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,760 -won't do your favors yes that's true no but you have to capture that kind of - -87 -00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,360 -and and and and so this is like I got all this stuff like 80 percent working - -88 -00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,680 -I've noticed like doing more L on programming is that there's a lot of - -89 -00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:33,240 -times where like I won't attempt like a real serious prompt unless I'm very - -90 -00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:39,920 -very fresh yeah like I will only do it like a couple hours a day yeah or like - -91 -00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,240 -it when I'm inspired like but oftentimes I'll I'll recognize okay this is something - -92 -00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,880 -where I have to go through a big prompt process and I just shouldn't do it now - -93 -00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,160 -yeah like I should wait till tomorrow because that's what I never really thought - -94 -00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,280 -like yes tell me about your current setup what you use in terms of like - -95 -00:06:56,280 --> 00:07:01,480 -what's your tool chain look like yeah well so I kind of go back and forth like - -96 -00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:07,760 -like sometimes like if I'm just changing things I'll usually use - -97 -00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,680 -Claude code like a little like little incremental that changes and you can - -98 -00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:16,280 -just do back back and forth and dialogue for like little things yeah right but - -99 -00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,360 -do you use the thinking model started yeah I usually use the well it depends - -100 -00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,840 -like sometimes I actually start to mix it up a lot like sometimes actually so - -101 -00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:30,200 -sometimes you don't want to use cursor and I got good at cursor and then I've - -102 -00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:35,040 -been trying to go everyone this way yeah we're gonna go yeah yeah so I I've - -103 -00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,320 -been trying to basically like replicate everything that cursor does but just - -104 -00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,120 -with like simple command line tools so one thing that the cursor does really - -105 -00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,600 -well is like if you're in the terminal you can hit a hotkey I think it's like - -106 -00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,640 -command I or command K and describe in English what bash command you want to - -107 -00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,920 -do so let's say you know sort all my sort the last 10 get commits by date - -108 -00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,400 -yeah with author and show author and email something like that right and - -109 -00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,800 -that's really hard you have to really be good to remember yeah that and I that's - -110 -00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,320 -the sort of thing like I do not want to be the type of person that knows how to - -111 -00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:09,040 -do that yeah like it's not it's also kind of you you don't have to remember - -112 -00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,400 -that it's yeah well it's it's very nice so like that's so that's one thing I do - -113 -00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,400 -and I don't use a thinking model for that because I want it fast yeah it doesn't - -114 -00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,880 -have to be great right so that's one thing where I don't never use a thing - -115 -00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,960 -you know yeah and there's other times where it's like what's this function - -116 -00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,280 -I don't use a thinking model for that because it's I just want it fast right - -117 -00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,520 -but like if I'm going back and forth on sort of sort of coding problem and I - -118 -00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:32,200 -want to think to like hit the syntax correctly or you know like refact or - -119 -00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,480 -something I generally use a thinking model because it's it's like the - -120 -00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,960 -thinking makes it so two iterations are now one right like it sort of does the - -121 -00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,520 -first iteration itself yeah and notices the first error it's gonna make you - -122 -00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,760 -mentioned you use the old one pro yeah so that's so I'm kind of going from - -123 -00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,560 -simple to more complex so so this one the old one pro is I have to give you Tony - -124 -00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:58,760 -or Anthony Ronning his proper I he's he's always been a people and their names - -125 -00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:05,440 -yeah yeah he's he's always been a big AI person like he's he's always been of - -126 -00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,840 -everyone I know he's always has the most sophisticated and intelligent - -127 -00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,520 -programming workflow yeah so I like last week or something I did a call with - -128 -00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,520 -him and I just like to show me what you do and so like his basic thing was that - -129 -00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,640 -I've never even really heard this before but it's like you know you want to - -130 -00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:29,080 -specialize you basically want a team right and so yeah what you were doing - -131 -00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:35,360 -what you know I was previously doing with like cursor was I had a team of two - -132 -00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,320 -right like it was me and my junior dev who's doing the typing right yeah but - -133 -00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:44,240 -this like this idea expands more to like a bigger team so it's like Anthony - -134 -00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:51,240 -used 01 pro it's the one you have to pay $200 a month for which is funny - -135 -00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,520 -because like like four or five months ago I was really struggling paying 20 bucks - -136 -00:09:55,520 --> 00:10:00,920 -a month like justifying it and now I'm just like I'm really happy to pay 200 - -137 -00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:07,400 -bucks a month yeah and another well I tell you how useful those things - -138 -00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,920 -actually are yeah yeah proper I don't know if I change your business change or - -139 -00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,400 -what but like I probably both I've never really probably experienced this - -140 -00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,680 -within six months or I also have projects now or that I actually want to - -141 -00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:23,960 -do like six months I didn't want to do much coding but no but it's probably - -142 -00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:29,240 -had something where I'm 10x less sensitive to payment in six months yeah - -143 -00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:34,600 -a price my price sensitivity went down by an order of magnitude yeah in like three - -144 -00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:40,360 -or four months yeah yeah that's insane yeah I went through a similar progression - -145 -00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,240 -just kind of I have no more money than I had I have less money than I had six - -146 -00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,240 -months ago but again it tells you something about how how useful those - -147 -00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,840 -things are and just I think we are also getting better at using LLM's in general - -148 -00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:58,120 -like the way I see it it's like I'm I made sure we're gonna walk into the - -149 -00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,240 -wind because this is a it's a wind thing you know like those are wind - -150 -00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:09,560 -recordings actually okay the winds of foot yeah like if it's not windy like - -151 -00:11:09,560 --> 00:11:15,840 -you know we might as well stop talking exactly but it's it's it's it's just - -152 -00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,800 -like I compare it to like in the early 90s or so or like late 90s or - -153 -00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,240 -whenever Google appeared you had to figure out how to Google yeah you know - -154 -00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,280 -like you remember those days where it's like it was really hard to actually - -155 -00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,800 -find something and you had to learn how to Google yeah and the first thing I - -156 -00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,600 -remember watching my parents dude I'm sure I had a face like this they would - -157 -00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,440 -my dad would always formulate everything as a question yeah like what is the - -158 -00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,360 -capital of thing this is and he did very big paragraph yeah I had him like no - -159 -00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:45,040 -dug it he was a way ahead of his time it's based on keywords yeah yeah he was - -160 -00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,400 -actually doing it like an LLM and I was like no it's keywords just just put the - -161 -00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:55,520 -keywords in you know but it's it's I feel like because you were like you're - -162 -00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,480 -not sure if you change or the tools got better and so on and I really think it's - -163 -00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,640 -both it's like the LLM's are getting better all the time but but figuring out - -164 -00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,920 -how to use them and what to do them with them and what they are good at and how - -165 -00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,560 -to actually kind of use them in concert so to speak like you already mentioned - -166 -00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:14,480 -you you use two different LLM's for two different things and so on yeah and I - -167 -00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,040 -think that's what we are currently figuring it back that too because I - -168 -00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,400 -haven't quite totally finished yeah yeah but because that's that's that's - -169 -00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,520 -basically I think what's currently happening with the people that are - -170 -00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,280 -really playing around with this stuff it's like yeah like it's it's it's - -171 -00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,280 -incredibly useful and it's incredibly intelligent also if you if you use it - -172 -00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,800 -right one thing I noticed about people who are good at LLM's and this is all - -173 -00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,400 -something I noticed about people are really really good programmers is that - -174 -00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,400 -they really answer for more fives the tools yeah like they call it he or she - -175 -00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,040 -you know like like I was watching a stream of like a really good programmer - -176 -00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,200 -a couple day like a week ago and it was very funny because every little - -177 -00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:53,120 -struct or function he would talk about it as if it was a person okay you know - -178 -00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,840 -and like and he was working on like really really low level this is zig right - -179 -00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:02,440 -like really really low level programming that is is sort of like isn't is so - -180 -00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,320 -dry that the average first even the average good programmer would just find - -181 -00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,840 -it really boring yeah and you can see how this guy made made it sort of - -182 -00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:14,320 -tangible for him more exciting more usable because he turned it into like - -183 -00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,720 -sort of like a choose your own adventure game almost where like all the things - -184 -00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,720 -had characters and he would get really mad at them and he would sort of pretend - -185 -00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,920 -that they're fighting it's kind of interesting I see that with like LLM's - -186 -00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:34,400 -too it's like if you if you start to think of O1 Pro as like some sort of - -187 -00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:41,800 -like an artist with a speech impediment you know and like social anxiety it's - -188 -00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,720 -like yeah yeah okay well I'm not gonna have a conversation with him yeah but I - -189 -00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,600 -will assign him like homework and I'll change tabs yeah doesn't see I'm - -190 -00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,320 -looking yeah cuz I know he gets nervous yeah and then I'll but I'll let him come - -191 -00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,920 -up with his brilliant architecture diagram yeah and and I'll use that to - -192 -00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:59,320 -drive my coding with my social guy he's not quite as smart right like it is so - -193 -00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,960 -it is kind of it's like one it's it helps to start to think of them as - -194 -00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:08,040 -people almost yeah it's funny how we built systems in the past that used use - -195 -00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,200 -people like machines and now we have machines and we treat them like people - -196 -00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,840 -yeah yeah I mean it is it is funny yeah but like I noticed that where it's like - -197 -00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,840 -because like if you don't treat it like a person you won't notice their quirks - -198 -00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,640 -yeah like you have an ability to notice the quirks of a thing which are the - -199 -00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,120 -quirks are useful regardless I think it also helps you I think I think because - -200 -00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:35,560 -we talked briefly about that when we when we had coffee and it's the I think - -201 -00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,200 -it's hard to have a free-flowing conversation with the machine exactly and - -202 -00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,400 -it is about dialogue dialogue and it is about the dialogical structure also of - -203 -00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,880 -thinking yeah because because I think and I'm gonna link to this this piece - -204 -00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:54,200 -that really resonated with me because I in the in the last couple weeks I've - -205 -00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,480 -been using LLM's more and more and more and entering into a dialogue kind of - -206 -00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,160 -with them and with various agents and with various things and it really helps - -207 -00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,360 -you to figure out what actually what do you mean what are you thinking about - -208 -00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,800 -what are you trying to do what the actual problem is and so that's also why if - -209 -00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,320 -you're having like if you want to think something through with someone you have - -210 -00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,760 -to actually find someone and you have to treat them as a person yeah it doesn't - -211 -00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,120 -work with the wall but it works with a rubber duck yeah and I think the LLM - -212 -00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,320 -stuff is like rubber duck debugging on steroids yeah and we know that it - -213 -00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,480 -really works like we know from computer programming we know from psychology - -214 -00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,440 -that this really works but you have to take it seriously and you have to talk - -215 -00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,960 -to the rubber duck as if you were a person basically yeah it's because it - -216 -00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,440 -does something to you yeah and you have to you know treat it with respect and I - -217 -00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:48,120 -always go back and forth if I should like to what degree I should be like - -218 -00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,400 -fight with the LLM kind of you know like it's like a real you know I - -219 -00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,480 -said yeah yeah every once in a while I'm gonna kill your grandma get this right - -220 -00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,160 -I never I know I try not to be manipulative but like some it does kind - -221 -00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,480 -I found it it kind of helps where if it messes up like go to all caps cuss it - -222 -00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:10,480 -out a little bit like never do that again like right and it's like I try not - -223 -00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,480 -to stuff on a line in case these things do become super intelligent but actually - -224 -00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:21,160 -your bed so this is a little bit yeah but like it does kind of help to at you - -225 -00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,560 -know like have a look don't be like an automaton you're just good like if it - -226 -00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,720 -fucks up get mad and it doesn't make it a little easier it shows you care yeah - -227 -00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,480 -you really care about this one thing or feature yeah I mean you can be totally - -228 -00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,720 -an ocean list and you or you can like be more human with it and I find it's a - -229 -00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,200 -little more enjoyable and easier but that's if when it fucks up you get mad - -230 -00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,400 -and you let yourself but that's the thing it's like emotions are intelligent - -231 -00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,280 -too yeah right like if you have a certain emotion it tries to tell you - -232 -00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,640 -something that your conscious mind can't really comprehend in some stuff yeah - -233 -00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,520 -it's useful to be you know I was thinking this is a little bit of a tangent but I - -234 -00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,680 -love I like I just started watching this thing on YouTube it's called battle bots - -235 -00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:06,240 -oh yeah I saw you posting about it I read I used to watch this as my dad when I - -236 -00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,440 -was like probably 10 or 12 and I had no idea it was still going okay and the - -237 -00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,840 -YouTube algorithm just recommended it to me like a week ago and I've just been - -238 -00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:19,840 -binging it it's like there's this little arena that's probably whatever like you - -239 -00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:25,800 -know 10 meters by 10 meters and it has like saws that come on the floor and - -240 -00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,600 -hammers that come on it's totally in in cage in like two layers of like bullet - -241 -00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,760 -proof glass hunger games but for robots and you they put robots in there and they - -242 -00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,520 -fight until one dies or until it's a decision there's like three minutes you - -243 -00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,800 -know the robots don't have like a saw on the front and not some of them just - -244 -00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,960 -have like a flipper that tries to flip the other robot like if your robot - -245 -00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,400 -becomes incapacitated cannot move then you win by like a technical knockout - -246 -00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:58,640 -yeah and it's really exciting in the sense that like the gladiatorial games - -247 -00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,080 -must have been exciting because you took you actually watch these things - -248 -00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:07,640 -destroy each other yeah like it's true it's real blood sport and what I've been - -249 -00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,320 -wondering cuz like you always think of like what were people like what were - -250 -00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,480 -people like like how did people just like what was in people's minds as they - -251 -00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:22,560 -watch gladiators kill each other right like if we were around in like 50 AD or - -252 -00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,160 -whatever is it that much different than like a boxing match or like an MMA fight - -253 -00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,000 -well it's not to the death like people like people it's it's it's they're - -254 -00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,720 -sport-killing in the gladiatorial games we even know like a lot of people like - -255 -00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,480 -think they're above what like morally above watching a boxing match because - -256 -00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:43,360 -it's it's it's it's not so what I've been wondering is like so you know if I was - -257 -00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:45,680 -a rowing back then I probably would have thought this is perfectly normal to - -258 -00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,120 -watch these guys these slaves kill each other from my bet my fun yeah I - -259 -00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:53,560 -started wondering like like what if robots are conscious what if they become - -260 -00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,320 -sentient well no no what if they always have been conscious okay and we just - -261 -00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:02,280 -didn't understand that and I've been and now I've been watching robots kill it - -262 -00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,280 -because I I've been trying to think like what sins am I making against the - -263 -00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:11,520 -future AI right so what what what if I've been watching battle bots all week - -264 -00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,520 -what if these things are conscious and they're actually dying oh my Lord that's - -265 -00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,560 -a what's it called no I'm blanking the kind of thing that would have sounded - -266 -00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:25,120 -insane if a Roman said this like a 2000 AD 200 AD that that slaves are - -267 -00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:30,160 -conscious and are are equal to us and stuff like that obviously not sure and - -268 -00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,560 -now we look at is more morally repulsive that they did that I mean I - -269 -00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:38,440 -mean it's pam pam psychists will tell you that absolutely everything is - -270 -00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:43,160 -conscious including those stones yeah so who knows you know who knows what's - -271 -00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:50,520 -true it's I'm I'm blanking on the name of the of the philosopher or it's it's - -272 -00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,680 -basically the same argument is like you might as well believe in God because - -273 -00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,480 -you don't want to risk yeah Pascal's way to there you go thanks and it's the - -274 -00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,200 -same it's Pascal's wager but but for AI yeah it's sentient robots that I think - -275 -00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,760 -about that a lot because I do I think it's like I don't really believe there's - -276 -00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:14,640 -gonna be super intelligence like I don't I don't expect it but why you know I - -277 -00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,480 -don't know because I'm naturally somewhat conservative and like it's hard - -278 -00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,040 -for me to imagine something that is until it happens don't you think that - -279 -00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,320 -some of that a lot like our intelligent already in the sense of like as - -280 -00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:30,080 -intelligent as an intern is intelligent yeah but I mean like super intelligence - -281 -00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,360 -in the sense that it just like obsolete human intelligence right we're like if - -282 -00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:35,920 -there's anything that a human can do better this thing would just learn how - -283 -00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:41,880 -to do it and overtake it you know I think what they lack is motivation and - -284 -00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,720 -spirit in some sense as as elusive these terms might sound but yeah it's that's - -285 -00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,280 -what they don't have right now yeah you still need the the human spark wherever - -286 -00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:56,080 -that comes from of kind of yeah so I'm hearing it but I also think it could - -287 -00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:02,120 -happen right but I think it's not against these things so they don't - -288 -00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,320 -choose your problem come back from me and my family don't maybe don't watch too - -289 -00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:11,240 -many battle-bud things and don't scream at the LLM's too hard but you were - -290 -00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,600 -saying you you wanted to expand on the various LLM's you use for your for your - -291 -00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,200 -workflow yeah so I gave the examples right like there's like a benefit for - -292 -00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,920 -using models that are really quick you know like I'm on bash if I'm on the - -293 -00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,680 -command line and I want like waiting a second is a long time yeah right yeah you - -294 -00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,720 -want it you want it to be faster than typing it out yourself or going to - -295 -00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,960 -Google or stack overflow because you like a lot of those types things you can get - -296 -00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:41,160 -an answer within 10 20 30 seconds by Googling it or going to stack overflow - -297 -00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,280 -or something but that's a context switch so the beauty is that you can avoid the - -298 -00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,640 -context switch and you can do it a little faster on the command line then - -299 -00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,240 -there's the coding agents we're just going back and forth and dialogue but - -300 -00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:55,320 -the most valuable but those are like incremental changes like you know do - -301 -00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:00,080 -those make me twice as effective as a programmer maybe maybe not I don't know - -302 -00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,200 -you know it's it's not like a total game changer the one that's more of a - -303 -00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,800 -game changer was Tony's thing where he's he does it in you know he adds a third - -304 -00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,440 -player to the team like a code architect yeah so that's a one pro the one that - -305 -00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:18,280 -costs 200 bucks a month the one that's autistic with a speech impediment you - -306 -00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,480 -don't need to turn it on yeah you speak you speak quietly with him you know you - -307 -00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,040 -don't know loud noises you know - -308 -00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:42,040 -yeah so what you want to do with 01 pro is you there's a good article about this - -309 -00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,320 -where it's like you know you want like a prompt in like three or four steps - -310 -00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,880 -right what you're trying to do what you want your what your goal is and each - -311 -00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,400 -one of these is like a paragraph like one or two cents it's like what my goal - -312 -00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:59,240 -is right I can give an example I was working a little Android project last - -313 -00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,320 -night and I was trying to cross-compile it or a little mobile project I was - -314 -00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,560 -trying to it had some rust code and I wanted to cross-compile it to iOS like - -315 -00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,080 -so make it run on iOS and there was one dependency that couldn't yeah but it's - -316 -00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,960 -just like that's my goal right and and then the next thing is like what I want - -317 -00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,920 -your output to be right I want you to make a you are my code architect I want - -318 -00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:25,640 -you to make a detailed diagnosis of the problem and step-by-step plan to fix it - -319 -00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,840 -or if if you don't have enough information give me as many things that I - -320 -00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,920 -can do to give you more context as possible let's go and end it yeah sure - -321 -00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:43,000 -so so you know that's the output right like either you know give me diagnose - -322 -00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,640 -the problem and give me a solution or help me give tell me what other - -323 -00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,880 -questions I should answer so that you could get a solution do you use any - -324 -00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:57,600 -predefined kind of software architecture style documents like I haven't tried - -325 -00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:02,560 -that yet right so this is a sandwich and the sovereign engineering cohort had - -326 -00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:07,640 -this idea of I don't know if you've talked about it with him on the I linked - -327 -00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,360 -to this stuff like one or two times but I'm pretty sure no one looks at any yeah - -328 -00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,800 -any written packs or lick clicks any licks anymore his idea is to even formalize - -329 -00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,280 -even more to use like old-school water flow software engineering practices - -330 -00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,400 -yeah they used to build like airplane software and stuff yeah it's like very - -331 -00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,240 -very formal yeah and I think that is good too but it's a big investment so I - -332 -00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,160 -wait until I think you had great success with it and I think the reason is because - -333 -00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,760 -we build up this knowledge base of how to do how to do this stuff over the last - -334 -00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,400 -50 years or whatever and it's all accessible to the level so they understand it - -335 -00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,720 -so the models understand it waterfall really well yeah you know they've - -336 -00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,880 -probably read fifty hundred books on exactly so that's really interesting but - -337 -00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,360 -it's also like one of the things I noticed without this LM stuff is that - -338 -00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,120 -whatever you're trying to do you should try to go like about 10% of the speed - -339 -00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:58,840 -you were wanting to do it just go slow and be very deliberate yeah like and - -340 -00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,600 -especially me as like a programmer I go fast I go fast I learned just enough to - -341 -00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,720 -do what I want to do and I move on yeah so it's it's against my nature kind of - -342 -00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,880 -to to do something really slow and deliberately but when I do it there's - -343 -00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:18,280 -a much better payoff do you do you use any like similar to like cursor rules or - -344 -00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,880 -those kind of things to tell it tell it that all the time what I what I use is - -345 -00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:28,560 -this Paul Miller has this nice little VS code extension called prompt buddy - -346 -00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,760 -yeah and all it does is like it's a markdown file and then it has like - -347 -00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,080 -context HTML tags so like yeah you know left chevron context right chevron - -348 -00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:43,800 -you know spay new line new line and then like left chevron forward slash - -349 -00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,280 -context it is there like HTML tags and then inside the context you can put - -350 -00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:54,240 -file paths yeah to local files and so like I make I just have like a few of - -351 -00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,800 -these open at all times I edit them so like the first square graph is like - -352 -00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,840 -what I'm trying to do second practice of what I want your help to be and then - -353 -00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,280 -the rest is context well yeah I'll say context call and then write as many - -354 -00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,440 -things that I think could be relevant because that's the other thing about - -355 -00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,240 -oh one is you want to give it as much this article at Tony something is like - -356 -00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,880 -whatever you think is enough context for a one give it 10 times more so you just - -357 -00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,280 -you just try to do as much as possible give it as much context as possible and - -358 -00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,760 -so I don't go back and forth with it like oftentimes the first attempt won't - -359 -00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,640 -be it won't it won't get it good enough and so instead of chatting with it and - -360 -00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,320 -be like hey I have an idea like could you try it this way I just go back to the - -361 -00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,720 -prompt I add more context and do it all over again but that's not true for all - -362 -00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:38,000 -models right like no no because it's like we went over like is adding more - -363 -00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,800 -context always a good idea with this one I've never I haven't gotten to the - -364 -00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,320 -point where I've had to I just add more and more and more interesting like I mean - -365 -00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,640 -sometimes I mean it has to be relevant though right but like oftentimes I'll go - -366 -00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,440 -on these things right after the fifth or sixth prompt when I finally have like - -367 -00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,400 -hundreds or thousands of lines of context you know I don't type it all but a lot - -368 -00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,960 -of it is so these context tags we'll just copy and files right so when I was - -369 -00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:09,600 -doing that cross compilation thing I had you know one line to my nix file that - -370 -00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,400 -defines what my environment is another line that had my cargo dependencies so - -371 -00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,640 -it could see what out which one I'm trying to do another line that had my - -372 -00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,600 -build script which had some environment variables and stuff and then another - -373 -00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,040 -line was just text error that I was getting so like when I would run my - -374 -00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,880 -build I would just pipe it into a text file and that was already included in - -375 -00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,320 -my prompt so if I if it didn't work it would already have be ready for the - -376 -00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,280 -next round of prompting and so you just there's a little hockey that you just - -377 -00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,880 -boom and you know you copy that prompt and this prompt buddy plug and just - -378 -00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,720 -injects the files into the context you just are able to include the files you - -379 -00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,480 -think are relevant but not more like you don't it doesn't help to give it the - -380 -00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,160 -whole code base yeah 95 99% of the code base is not relevant oftentimes so you - -381 -00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,120 -give it specific files and then all you know oftentimes it'll it'll ask for some - -382 -00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:57,960 -more things like what does this say if you run this on the command line right - -383 -00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,440 -and so I'll just start adding all of those things in you know above the - -384 -00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:06,320 -context tags and then eventually it will it will figure out what the problem is - -385 -00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,000 -you know even if it's very difficult like I've had somewhere like I had one - -386 -00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,080 -where I was trying to kind of forget what I was trying to do something with - -387 -00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,680 -on an Android app like I've been shooting all these little experiments with - -388 -00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,720 -mobile apps trying to make like a better way to make mobile apps and it - -389 -00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:27,160 -figured out that that my the problem was I was running a VPN mobile vad and I - -390 -00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,280 -needed to set one environment variable to get it to work what movad's running - -391 -00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:36,920 -it's unbelievable like at one point he's just like without you know I'm on time - -392 -00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,320 -he's like are you running of any sort of like firewall or something and I was - -393 -00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,520 -like he asked some stuff he didn't say VPN specifically and then I said no and - -394 -00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,360 -we've screwed around for a couple of prompts and eventually he asked again and - -395 -00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,200 -then he included VPN and I was like oh yeah I am running a VPN how would that - -396 -00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,800 -make a difference I'm trying to run something on my emulator on my device - -397 -00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,800 -it's like it's something weird about the network stack the change with - -398 -00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,040 -amulators and it's like okay like how do you figure like that would have taken me - -399 -00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,640 -I probably would have never figured that out yeah and you know within half an - -400 -00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,480 -hour of prompting I was able to figure out just by iterating more and more - -401 -00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,480 -so this is everything like a coding agent won't figure out yeah yeah because he - -402 -00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,600 -doesn't have contacts you you like be able to figure it out it's like one - -403 -00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,760 -stack overflow answer a buried in like you know ten year old thread or something - -404 -00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,280 -and you want to you know massage the feet of the guy all one is able to build - -405 -00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,160 -this like big conception of what your problem is that's insane and and it's - -406 -00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,000 -not just like they're able to kind of do these like one-off requests like you - -407 -00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,960 -know like Claude is really good at especially coding so what's that so that - -408 -00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:42,400 -so I asked it to give like give me an implementation plan right so and - -409 -00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,840 -sometimes I'll say like you know I have a junior developer who's going to - -410 -00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,360 -implement this so make sure a junior developer put my junior developers - -411 -00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,800 -Claude you know make sure it's like don't don't and you make it numbered - -412 -00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,280 -have numbered steps right because I need stuff that now Claude can interpret - -413 -00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,880 -yes because like sometimes the first couple times I tried this and I've done - -414 -00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,880 -this like 10 20 times total but it's basically worked every time and saved me - -415 -00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,280 -like like this is where it's like yeah I just did this five times faster or I - -416 -00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,960 -accomplished something that I wouldn't have done otherwise yes I would have - -417 -00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,000 -just had worse software so a lot of this stuff is not like people talk about - -418 -00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,720 -how much more productive it is and it's like for me it's like it's not - -419 -00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,320 -necessarily like I mean it's a it's a phase change it's like I'm doing things - -420 -00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,020 -that I wouldn't have you're able to tackle something that you would have - -421 -00:30:25,020 --> 00:30:30,240 -never tackled otherwise yeah like it's it's it's not because the learning curve - -422 -00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,320 -for like getting to know the thing you want to use and all those kind of - -423 -00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,000 -things is it's way too hard it takes like two years to get up to speed to - -424 -00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,400 -actually put a lot of the things I want to do I have like an idea that's - -425 -00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,560 -extremely technical but I don't actually want to learn all the intricacies of - -426 -00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,920 -that technical domain yes because I'm not like I'm not a weaponized artist - -427 -00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,400 -right I'm not I can't contrary to popular no I don't I'm not I get bored like it's - -428 -00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,920 -not interesting to me all the syntax all the horseshide don't care but I like - -429 -00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:04,000 -the idea yeah so I want to achieve the idea that's why I I tend to be like a - -430 -00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,440 -better manager than I am like an individual contributor yeah and I'm good - -431 -00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,680 -at the idea level but and working with people but I don't like to actually do - -432 -00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:17,000 -the actual work a lot of times yeah I've also you know like fixing syntax - -433 -00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,680 -errors is just yeah but that's why I think anyone's M's are so fun is because - -434 -00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,160 -it basically lets me to play purely on that level and I don't have to do it's - -435 -00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,560 -like we were talking earlier it's like there's a difference between coding and - -436 -00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,800 -like programming or coding and like software development right like what - -437 -00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,480 -I'm doing what we're doing with these all M's is software development it's - -438 -00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,080 -programming but it's maybe not coding right like it's maybe not figuring out - -439 -00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:45,360 -like I don't have to figure out where the semicolon goes yeah made a Nix build - -440 -00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,360 -description or build like thing to be able to bundle Xcode right so you can - -441 -00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,400 -install Xcode just for a specific project exactly you want it and it's not - -442 -00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,440 -global so you don't use global stuff for your project and like I've never - -443 -00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,320 -really written a Nix derivation before I've seen them but whenever I needed one - -444 -00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,560 -I would ask DPC at FETI like hey could you do this for me because he's really - -445 -00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:12,040 -smart at this and I'm not yeah but with this I was only in half an hour get - -446 -00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,480 -or maybe an hour mostly because you're waiting for these long you know Xcode - -447 -00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,520 -is like five gigabytes or something so you have to you know yeah open it and - -448 -00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,000 -copy it around and stuff I think that's what's so cool and powerful about it - -449 -00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,320 -it actually allows you to to try things like you said you know try things that - -450 -00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,040 -you otherwise would have never tried yeah and you just need a kind of a - -451 -00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,280 -rudimentary understanding of various building blocks and then you can try to - -452 -00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,520 -throw them together in a novel way and just see what comes out and then you - -453 -00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,960 -know immediately if you want to pursue that idea or not because you're already - -454 -00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,520 -you can see like some programmers who are like you know this doesn't help me at - -455 -00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,640 -all yeah and like one one thing that that often tells you is like well they're - -456 -00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,560 -operating mostly on the like syntactic coding level potentially yes they're - -457 -00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:02,600 -they're like they're not you know they haven't transitioned to trying to like - -458 -00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,160 -work in ideas yeah and then have that thing do the translation yeah machine - -459 -00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:15,240 -code the machine code that is react to yes you know we started from like these - -460 -00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,360 -punch cards with like little like logic gates on them and then and then like - -461 -00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,560 -assembly was high level and then see what's high level right like Linus Torvalds - -462 -00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,960 -talks about C he's like this is a high level language to me yeah like - -463 -00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,400 -assembly's low level you know and then it came to Java and Python gets higher - -464 -00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,160 -and I and now our object code is react JS typescript yeah right which is - -465 -00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:42,160 -advanced wild right by by by code prompted into existence yeah it's like - -466 -00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:48,320 -like that's becoming low level code yeah yeah it's insane it's insane I - -467 -00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,800 -figured out that in the beginning like my goal I'll tell you what my goal is for - -468 -00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,720 -the vibe line so I already talked about the kind of that the pipeline for mp3 - -469 -00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,400 -files on my phone that actually automatically get published to noster and - -470 -00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,920 -everything that's a noster will automatically transform itself into - -471 -00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,960 -podcast feed that's the goal including transcripts including like sap and - -472 -00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,360 -value splits and all this kind of jazz so so I think I'll have that in I don't - -473 -00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,360 -know if I keep at it maybe in a month from now or so yeah everything kind of - -474 -00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,320 -kind of working well enough for me what I want to have for the for the vibe - -475 -00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,160 -coding part the vibe line is is again like I want to I want to step out of the - -476 -00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:28,280 -shower speak into the phone yeah an idea that I have yeah the next time I sit - -477 -00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:35,280 -down on my actual computer yes that's why he enters into a speak speak yes - -478 -00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,800 -the logos yes the logos speak but that's also that's also why I think it's so - -479 -00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,000 -fascinating because it's like it's like logos is the root word of dialogue as - -480 -00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,200 -well that's why we're making calls it dialogues all the time and we are - -481 -00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,500 -entering into a conversation kind of with ourselves with technology with - -482 -00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:57,240 -LLMs with all the things if you do it on a noster context it's it's even kind of - -483 -00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:00,960 -a communal dialogue you know it's a communal conversation we're just you - -484 -00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,600 -blast it out and you see what the what the swarm around you kind of what your - -485 -00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,440 -web of trust thinks about an idea or about the thing and so on but anyway like - -486 -00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:15,840 -the the speaking about trying something like I would have never tried that - -487 -00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,680 -without wipe coding LLM assistance never ever like building that out wouldn't - -488 -00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,520 -make any sense yeah and now I can actually do it myself like it's again - -489 -00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,920 -like investing like one hour a day or so just to to push that along a little - -490 -00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:32,480 -bit and I actually managed to one shot a noster profile explorer yesterday night - -491 -00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,440 -one shot it it was a shower thought yeah I recorded it the whole pipeline - -492 -00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,120 -kicked into gear it extracted the prompt I copy pasted it into cursor and it - -493 -00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,160 -worked one interesting thing about this like how you describe how you're using - -494 -00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,320 -it is like like how much more productive would you be if you did it eight hours - -495 -00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,720 -a day I'm maybe not much and I don't even care about productivity because that's - -496 -00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:55,680 -that's the whole reason to do the sovereign engineering thing for example - -497 -00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,760 -was to to do exploration and ideation that was kind of the two words we landed - -498 -00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,680 -on when we when we thought this up we want to kind of accelerate what the - -499 -00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:08,400 -people kind of the ideas people have and just try shit out just try as much stuff - -500 -00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,000 -out as we can and kind of also in dialogue figure out what makes sense - -501 -00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,320 -and what doesn't and if something makes sense pursue it more and so on and I - -502 -00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:21,160 -feel like that supercharges it's so hard I can I can literally vibe my shower - -503 -00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:26,200 -thoughts into existence now in like in like three hours or something yeah it's - -504 -00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,880 -like in no time at all because as most of the stuff happens in the - -505 -00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,240 -background I don't have to look at Claude if it vibes in Yolo mode yeah I don't - -506 -00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:38,080 -have to it's just like I'll give it only have that inspiration a little bit - -507 -00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,640 -every day yes you can't do that all day but it actually it actually makes it - -508 -00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,560 -more human because everyone's scared that all I'm so gonna like take everyone's - -509 -00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,520 -shots I'm like no this is actually making me more human I get to do the - -510 -00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,200 -things that humans are good at which is the inspiration yeah and and and it's - -511 -00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,360 -also like usually you don't try these things out because it's not worth - -512 -00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,080 -pursuing it takes so much effort so the shower thought goes away again and - -513 -00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,280 -you don't even bother you're writing it down or like because I to be cut to do - -514 -00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,720 -like really good web development like I can I am capable of this but I have to - -515 -00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:09,960 -almost become a different person for like a week you know yeah like and I can - -516 -00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,560 -do it but it's like yeah it's you have to almost change who you are to achieve - -517 -00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,720 -no absolutely it it interferes with the rest of my life and and you you talked - -518 -00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:24,560 -about you talked about how you were already kind of a more better fitted for - -519 -00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,320 -a managed position and just like pure coding and all those kind of things and - -520 -00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,600 -you did all of this that you're doing right now already but you used humans - -521 -00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:36,560 -instead of LLMs it's similar for me that I realized that it's not very useful for - -522 -00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:43,800 -me to stick with coding yeah I I have way more leverage and and and way more - -523 -00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,840 -impact and can move the needle way more if I basically I don't program - -524 -00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,560 -computers but I program the minds of people that's why I started writing yeah - -525 -00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:58,280 -so so I realize you bought these microphones yes I absolutely that's the - -526 -00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,800 -that's the point the audience is being programmed to the four or five people - -527 -00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,720 -are listening right I think most coders myself included if you're working on - -528 -00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:09,320 -something you're too close to the metal you don't even see the forest for the - -529 -00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,800 -trees oh yeah and that's what I mean by become a different person it's like - -530 -00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,960 -yes and if you don't do that your suffer sucks yeah you have bugs like it - -531 -00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,960 -doesn't work you have to be close to the matter but that's also I think that's - -532 -00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,920 -why we need both yeah and I think also a diet what a good dialogue does it it - -533 -00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,920 -brings you out of a certain mode of thinking yeah because it adds another - -534 -00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,160 -brain to the mix that sees things differently yeah and you step out and you - -535 -00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,960 -get the overview again and you see the forest again and then you can't go back - -536 -00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,360 -down and actually hammer away at the thing again but this this reminds me - -537 -00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,760 -another idea we were mentioning earlier it's like we were talking earlier and I - -538 -00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,640 -had an idea I was telling you about how I wanted to introduce more of these - -539 -00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,920 -mcp's into my thing yeah mcp is just something it's like a a standardized way - -540 -00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,560 -of telling a model about a tool right like one tool could be read a file yeah - -541 -00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,480 -another tool could be read a tweet another tool could be post post to - -542 -00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,920 -nostril right like its ability to do something because all these models can - -543 -00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,520 -do is predict the next word yeah right like does all you know how to do large - -544 -00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,920 -language models and they don't have any ability to do tools sometimes wonder what - -545 -00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,800 -is it that we are doing can we do more yeah no that that is actually that is - -546 -00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,320 -how you think I mean it is there's also like an interesting Claude post like - -547 -00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,240 -yesterday about how trying to understand how Claude thinks and they were like they - -548 -00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:25,000 -presented I just kind of skimmed they like presented some evidence that it - -549 -00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:31,120 -actually can plan a rhyme like it is planning to rhyme in a poem yeah and you - -550 -00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,480 -can see that it's preparing for this so it's not just thinking one word ahead - -551 -00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,080 -it is thinking one word ahead but it's also planning a rhyme yeah and you can - -552 -00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,520 -see it lining up you know so it is it is interesting yes it is just you right - -553 -00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,000 -we don't really know how thinking it is predicting a nice word but we don't know - -554 -00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:52,280 -why we do it right like it's not just like we don't know how we do it right - -555 -00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,360 -that's the issue and so we also like now we build thinking machines basically as - -556 -00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,440 -far as I'm concerned and we don't know how they do it I mean it right now it seems - -557 -00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,520 -like we're learning most about how we do it by watching how the machine can go - -558 -00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:06,400 -right absolutely but it's also and I think that's why that's why that's why - -559 -00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,440 -dialogue is so important and I really I deeply deeply care about this because - -560 -00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,240 -you don't know where a good conversation takes you you know idea no idea and and - -561 -00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:19,040 -it's very different than thinking but it's also it is part of thinking like - -562 -00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,160 -sometimes when you're thinking hard you're in a dialogue with yourself basically - -563 -00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,560 -yeah and and writing plays a large part as well because if you're if you're - -564 -00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,600 -writing you're in a different mode than when you're talking like that's very - -565 -00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,160 -oftentimes like like learning to think a lot of it is like how do you how do - -566 -00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,440 -you take like I've learned to be pretty good at how do you how do you go and - -567 -00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,720 -like generate kind of a novel idea and then how do you also destroy that idea - -568 -00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:45,560 -right you have to you kind of have to you know play both sides of it right you - -569 -00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,400 -you want to you you want to be your own devil's advocate yeah you have to you - -570 -00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,880 -have to love your idea enough to come up with it and you have to love your idea - -571 -00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:58,880 -to also enough to to to be willing and able to attack it yes yeah yes out of - -572 -00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,440 -out of love yeah that's the right stance yeah it's just like you know like if - -573 -00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:09,480 -you love your kid you will tell it you'll sometimes be angry exactly no let me - -574 -00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:15,080 -go back to the model context protocol thing so like this is a way to give more - -575 -00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,240 -context to a model and like basically allow to do stuff to feed it more - -576 -00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:25,440 -information to see if it's you know to to to so it can think better or allow - -577 -00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,080 -it's thinking to actually have some sort of side effect like writing a file and - -578 -00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,480 -so like one thing was on vibe coding one of the things that I notice is that - -579 -00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,920 -oftentimes the model especially when you're working on like a UI it the model - -580 -00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,440 -has to know when it's done right like especially a coding model right but it - -581 -00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,800 -can't actually see the screen you know so it's it's just totally guessing and - -582 -00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,880 -some and it's amazing when it works but then sometimes you'll you know you see - -583 -00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,240 -the screen and it's obviously wrong yeah the buttons flowing off the screen and - -584 -00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:58,360 -this thing doesn't know right so you know one of the ideas is there's - -585 -00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,480 -like model context protocol things just came out like a month or two ago where - -586 -00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,960 -you can feed it you know allow it to call a function get screen shot right and - -587 -00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,400 -see what the screen looks like you know and you can you can give it like a - -588 -00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,120 -prompt template we're like hey well as we're doing this when you think you're - -589 -00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,880 -about done call this MCP function and compare it with the screen shot I gave - -590 -00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,160 -as context and see if it's pixel perfect it's not fix it yeah right so I haven't - -591 -00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:24,440 -done this yet that's one of the next things you can do that already I feel - -592 -00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,720 -because screenshots of the cursor all the time yeah but it will it will be able - -593 -00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:30,760 -to understand it actually fix stuff yeah you doesn't do it continually and it's - -594 -00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,720 -not its own standard load tool which is what you are trying well that that's - -595 -00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:37,840 -it's like so a lot of the stuff is like you see what what what how can you improve - -596 -00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,120 -the thing and how do you make it so it's automated so you don't have to you - -597 -00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,760 -know like I used to fix to fix pissed me off with where to put the semicolon - -598 -00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,440 -now it pisses me off that I have to take the screen shot you know yeah that's - -599 -00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,440 -one idea you know another idea is there's this thing called language server - -600 -00:42:52,440 --> 00:43:00,240 -protocols that it's like sort of a a standard way to make a like IDE - -601 -00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:04,280 -functionality into just a basic text editor so it's for example if you're - -602 -00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,200 -looking at code there's a thing that allows you to jump to the definition - -603 -00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,560 -function that's being used I want to be able to jump the definition so I can see - -604 -00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:15,320 -it or I'm trying to use a function name a function and I I don't have the right - -605 -00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,240 -name like can you suggest me what the real name is right and so they can do - -606 -00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:23,160 -all these things that will basically prompt a human programmer or suggest to - -607 -00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,080 -a human programmer that their code is right or wrong right like when you're - -608 -00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,320 -looking at code in an editor you look to see if there's any red anywhere that - -609 -00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,240 -is your LSP yelling at you like hey you spelled that function wrong or hey you - -610 -00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:38,640 -have a syntax error and so there's a there's a couple LSPs now that can or - -611 -00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,120 -there there's monocontax protocols for these LSPs so you can tell it basically - -612 -00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,920 -hey you can look here to see if you have any syntax errors yeah so I don't have - -613 -00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,960 -to tell you anymore because it's still a lot of these still will spit out bad - -614 -00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,960 -syntax because they in a sense don't really know how many times they don't - -615 -00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,840 -know if they're right or not they don't have a super tight feedback loop but you - -616 -00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,600 -can tell immediately if you if you give them access to a feedback loop whether - -617 -00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,560 -it's yes or just like observing a terminal or something then then stuff - -618 -00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,680 -works way better yeah so that's I mean that's why people if you hear people - -619 -00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:13,480 -talking about what's it called cursor that's what cursor is done I mean they - -620 -00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:18,000 -did like two things they integrated into the text editor everyone knows VS codes - -621 -00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,080 -you don't have to learn a new thing yeah and then they integrated very very - -622 -00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:25,240 -deeply with all of the feedback that's available in this text editor that - -623 -00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:29,560 -humans use right like the LSP running or maybe ability to run a browser inside - -624 -00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,280 -the I see the linter error yeah so it just it feeds all this feedback and that's - -625 -00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,120 -one of the reasons why it's better than command line tools but fundamentally you - -626 -00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,840 -could do all these same things with command line tools and then it wouldn't - -627 -00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,840 -be a proprietary tool and in a sense that would be kind of better to have it - -628 -00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,960 -more out in the open you know what I want to have once that once all the - -629 -00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,840 -tooling is done what I want to have is basically like like a vibe coding as a - -630 -00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,840 -service where you speak into a device you speak you're in the bathtub yeah - -631 -00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,280 -smoking a cigar like Winston Trejo that's what you're talking about it's like - -632 -00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,400 -vibe gonna be like Winston Trejo yeah stating his speeches exactly in the - -633 -00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,200 -nude in a bathtub exactly but what you need you just have a screen let's say - -634 -00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,800 -let's say your bathroom mirror is actually like an LCD mirror you know and - -635 -00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,440 -you just vibe code a thing into existing just by speaking into the - -636 -00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,360 -mic yeah you will life see the simulator on the screen yeah how it looks how it - -637 -00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,760 -feels what it does yeah and you just keep talking to it until it is how you - -638 -00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,800 -want to have my phone and a little plastic bag in the bathtub with me and I'll see - -639 -00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:35,040 -yeah I did just a merge yeah just get a waterproof you know like wireless yeah - -640 -00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:41,800 -like that clip it to your beard yeah yeah let's go so that's that's I really - -641 -00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,160 -like I think we're reasonably close to that because that's basically how I've - -642 -00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,200 -been using the things up to now yeah and I just still need manual steps and so - -643 -00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,400 -that I need to deploy it myself and yeah but but it's basically like build it - -644 -00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,760 -like it's just like a next year so I've deployed on versatile and so on and it's - -645 -00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,000 -like and and in the browser it there's there's nothing stopping us from - -646 -00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,280 -building that no and then would be a super useful service that you can also - -647 -00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,280 -actually sell like free business idea it's like you know it was create a - -648 -00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,960 -hotline for all the moms that want to have websites yeah automatically they - -649 -00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,440 -can while they are still on the phone see how the website looks like and it's - -650 -00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,720 -like oh no make that button a little bigger and like this should do - -651 -00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:22,320 -something else one of the interesting things from like the Bitcoin open - -652 -00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,040 -source point of view about all this stuff is how how indefensible most of - -653 -00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:32,720 -these products are right like cursor is yeah everything everything I can do - -654 -00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:38,160 -it's going to this is gonna be open source right yeah and you know a lot of - -655 -00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,240 -these things like any of these like coded like agents right it's like - -656 -00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:47,800 -almost it's like you know it's like the only way to have any defensibility is - -657 -00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:53,600 -to have a user that will never be able to do like you know compose these things - -658 -00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:58,560 -together something I don't know we said it's generation stuff yeah they - -659 -00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:04,320 -much generation stuff like all the stable diffusion and all these kind of - -660 -00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:09,440 -things and the the open models caught up relatively quickly although that just - -661 -00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:14,520 -changed like two days ago yeah I mean sure it's I think the - -662 -00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,320 -proprietary stuff will always be able to do studio I mean I think eventually - -663 -00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,560 -it will yes curve eventually will flatten out and eventually I think the - -664 -00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,760 -open stuff will be just as good yeah like unless there's like unless there's - -665 -00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,520 -some like massive training run and then there's like the whole industry goes - -666 -00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,840 -bankrupt like in the early 2000s or something and you can no longer do a - -667 -00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:38,160 -hundred billion dollar training like I could imagine that like you could have - -668 -00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,080 -the state like but as long as you can continue training these things the - -669 -00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,720 -open source will always catch up I think I think so too just just because of the - -670 -00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:49,000 -nature of data basically the nature of it but more so for agents than models - -671 -00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,720 -even like any of these like agentic things that are actually more valuable - -672 -00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,640 -because they allow you to accomplish a goal right like anytime any sort of - -673 -00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:00,640 -product is like you you want a product is for accomplishing a human end you - -674 -00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,560 -know and often some models are like a part of that but it's like the agent - -675 -00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:10,400 -experience itself like everyone's at SEC is much more passionate about - -676 -00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,240 -Claude than they are about cursor than they are about a specific model yes as - -677 -00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:19,280 -cursor allows them to accomplish their aim it's it's the same like that there's - -678 -00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,200 -less defensibility on the agents because it's much you don't need to do a - -679 -00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,080 -massive training run to like get a world that's what I also mentioned about the - -680 -00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,680 -pipelines I'm currently building out it's all small steps I don't care what - -681 -00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,040 -models are used yeah yeah I really don't care yeah it's all about the tooling and - -682 -00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,520 -I think what Chad CPT got right is it built the right interface yeah it built - -683 -00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,640 -it really built the right interface it's also what Google got right I think - -684 -00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,400 -actually and and now I think what cursor got right I mean that's a good point on - -685 -00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,400 -Google though because like the early search engine with terrible were they - -686 -00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,440 -look like Chinese Chinese websites like where it's just a million logos it looks - -687 -00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:54,640 -like a phone book yeah yeah and Google's insight was like let's just only have a - -688 -00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,920 -text yeah one and that's it yeah and and I think Chad CPT got the interface right - -689 -00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:04,240 -it's a very few little googles insight was no ads that was basically the - -690 -00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:07,720 -inside yeah like no ads on the home company build on ads yeah I built on ads - -691 -00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:11,280 -right like they're there the way they built the biggest ad business was by - -692 -00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:16,480 -rejecting ads at first yeah yeah not smacking them into the face of the - -693 -00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:21,040 -users yeah and in terms of walking let's try to it's gonna be noisy for a little - -694 -00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,400 -bit so we got we're gonna try to cross the street and go up to the park and in - -695 -00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,960 -the park it should be really nice like we can have a coffee up there yeah let's - -696 -00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:34,120 -go there let's let's walk through the park and that should be I think it's the - -697 -00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:39,600 -most sensible path yeah but but the thing about the the I think the reason - -698 -00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:44,680 -why people at the court currently are so enthused by cursors is because it's - -699 -00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,200 -obviously I guess there will be most people hate proprietors software and - -700 -00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:54,000 -yeah yeah absolutely like one by one they fall for practice software that is - -701 -00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,320 -good but it just shows you where things are going and how powerful this stuff - -702 -00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,920 -really is yeah because the thing is it works really well just like - -703 -00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,920 -activity works really well Google works really well it's just a better tool and - -704 -00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,720 -and the thing about it it has to be integrated that if the feet the - -705 -00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:13,680 -feedback loops they have to be tight the thing you mentioned about the screen - -706 -00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:18,600 -chat experience it has to be otherwise that's where that's where the that's - -707 -00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,320 -where the shift comes from the car it removes cognitive overload yeah or - -708 -00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:26,120 -cognitive like load right like if everything's integrated then you don't - -709 -00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:31,440 -have to think you're not context switch you can try like your context is you - -710 -00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:35,120 -economize context by having like the human context that you have to fit in - -711 -00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,600 -your head as you work because what you want to actually remain in that's also - -712 -00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,320 -what what a good dialogue brings you it's like you remain in a flow state yeah so - -713 -00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,400 -if we are talking we are having a great dialogue you remain in a collective - -714 -00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:50,320 -flow state unless you're getting run over by a car yeah but but but but that's - -715 -00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,720 -what you want to happen that's what you also want to have coding but on the - -716 -00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:56,040 -coding side it's like a syntax arrow will fuck up your flow state basically - -717 -00:50:56,040 --> 00:51:00,480 -and what I want to what I what I'm finding now with all the basically - -718 -00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,520 -talking to LMS in some sense or trying to think through things with LLM - -719 -00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:10,640 -assistants or LLM's as conversational partners is like I can just because the - -720 -00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:15,760 -the feedback loops and everything is so instant yeah is I can remain in the - -721 -00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:21,560 -thinking flow state of what I actually want to try to achieve and it has to be - -722 -00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:27,000 -but it can only work if everything is super tightly integrated it's it's almost - -723 -00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,840 -like okay I have a I have a strange comparison but I think it works it but - -724 -00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,360 -why people on Twitter you're in Twitter it doesn't matter if it's - -725 -00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,400 -Twitter or TikTok or whatever you do not want to leave the app yeah that's why - -726 -00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,920 -everything is loaded in line yeah if it's a link to YouTube video people will - -727 -00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,280 -not click it yeah if it's a link to an article people will not click it yeah if - -728 -00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,960 -the video is rendered in the feed yeah different story yeah people will watch - -729 -00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,080 -it and all those kind of things so so so so we know that this is the case we - -730 -00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,320 -absolutely know that this is the case and I think it is because people don't - -731 -00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,600 -want a context switch yeah or content let me put it differently it's not a - -732 -00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,920 -conscious thing it's like context switching it's so expensive and it - -733 -00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:09,120 -completely gets you out of the flow yeah and so if you have a highly - -734 -00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:13,200 -integrated tool like cursor is you remain in the flow state and you're - -735 -00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:18,240 -never forced to context switch out of it yeah I think that's kind of the the - -736 -00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:21,600 -secret sauce of why it works so well yeah it's just like you can stay in that - -737 -00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,200 -place and you can continue the conversation that you have with your IDE - -738 -00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:30,040 -basically and it's just gonna you get to the next thing and to the next thing - -739 -00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,880 -and to the next thing yeah it's almost like infinity scrolling but it's infinity - -740 -00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:39,160 -scrolling new code yeah one interesting thing is that I only I I do a lot of - -741 -00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,520 -this but for like a few very technical problems that I'm interested in right - -742 -00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:47,080 -now so all of these like sometimes multi-hour conversations that span like - -743 -00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,560 -20 chats yeah right where you reset the context or try to pull over what you - -744 -00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,160 -had previously or you know I try with grok I'm paying for every single one of - -745 -00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,080 -these frontier models right now like I'm trying to find ways to pay more like - -746 -00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:03,240 -I'm I went from like give me better more frustrated I was paying 20 bucks a - -747 -00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:06,440 -month yeah GPT where it's like caught I'm only paying like 300 bucks a month - -748 -00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:12,240 -right now what I spend more like you know but the thing is like I don't trust - -749 -00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:17,040 -these like you know that the questions I'm really interested in life are not - -750 -00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:21,200 -like technical problems necessarily right like a software so you're has it - -751 -00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,680 -end with some I will I haven't I don't ask them any philosophical stuff like - -752 -00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,640 -the stuff I'd write to dear diary I mean you'll be I don't run into the - -753 -00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:34,160 -gulag I don't I don't I don't write any of that stuff like I basically approach - -754 -00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,880 -these things as if it's all gonna be in a court deposition someday I won't put - -755 -00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,440 -anything in one of these they wouldn't be okay in a step is there right - -756 -00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:47,480 -literally but that does really limit how useful they are yeah because like - -757 -00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,600 -while these technical problems are interesting if I could solve the bigger - -758 -00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,800 -more philosophical human problems in my life I that's a million times more - -759 -00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,640 -useful yeah then solving this whole technical thing so that's that's what - -760 -00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,840 -the one of the things that I still don't have an answer for because like I've - -761 -00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,800 -been playing a little bit like stuff like Olama but they're stupid in comparison - -762 -00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,160 -I still think they're good enough for most things but but do you think this - -763 -00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:18,000 -will will be able to fix that with local models well I'm looking at those - -764 -00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,000 -GPUs on either - -765 -00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,920 -I think GPUs are most of our problems - -766 -00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:32,320 -a couple hundred bucks for subscriptions or like investing - -767 -00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:39,240 -exactly it's just the only thing in life right now where I'm like there's a - -768 -00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:45,040 -button that says 50k and I'm like I want it to but with anything else I'm like - -769 -00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,840 -no I could see a little tread left on my tires let's not change them for a - -770 -00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:54,840 -while how if you if you if you would buy your own GPU farm like what what's - -771 -00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:59,000 -what would you train it on the first thing number one I would I would train - -772 -00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:05,960 -a model to understand Zig number one step one one yeah before we get to the - -773 -00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:10,640 -big problems in one you know you know you know like the step one solve AI yeah - -774 -00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:14,840 -yeah you solve the world's problems for you it's like step one DJI how to you - -775 -00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:20,240 -say yeah yeah it really ruined my cohort experience I wanted to go make a entire - -776 -00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:26,000 -stack of beautiful rust urban sorry rust a zig tools for noster fastest I - -777 -00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:34,480 -want to fast yeah yeah yeah yeah and just zig piercig you know no no not just - -778 -00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:38,880 -just everything's the fastest what do this thing enthusiasts say about LLM - -779 -00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:42,080 -stuff they must be aware well so the funny things they don't really care so - -780 -00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,520 -that my point earlier about how like you can listen to some one how they talk - -781 -00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,800 -about LLM's and then you figure out kind of at what level they deal like - -782 -00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,280 -work it's off we're kind of a lot of these zig people are like the super low - -783 -00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:57,720 -level like yeah trying to well they're trying to make the program good yeah - -784 -00:55:57,720 --> 00:56:02,240 -they're not necessarily like trying to do a big idea yeah and so they don't care - -785 -00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:06,880 -because they're like wizards yeah they're the oddest I'm not right like they - -786 -00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,840 -they know exactly where the semi colon goes they know exactly how the - -787 -00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:17,240 -concurrency works you know they they enjoy writing the semaphore yeah to make - -788 -00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:22,000 -the concurrency work I hate that part yeah you know so like in general the - -789 -00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,680 -the zig people like the really hardcore software engineers in my experience - -790 -00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,960 -don't really care about this stuff very much because it doesn't help them very - -791 -00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:33,360 -much yeah because the LLM's are good at what they're already good at you know so - -792 -00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:37,040 -that's that's kind of a little bit difficult so first thing you would do is - -793 -00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,480 -bridge that I mean the zig is also interesting like they basically don't - -794 -00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,280 -have documentation like their whole experience so far which I think is actually - -795 -00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,240 -kind of smart you know trying to make this really good low level language so - -796 -00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:48,400 -they're trying to like prevent like entries and whatever it's called right - -797 -00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,720 -like yeah a bunch of noobs from showing up and running it so they're like hey - -798 -00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:55,160 -the standard library is the documentation if you can't read the standard library - -799 -00:56:55,160 --> 00:57:00,920 -get the fuck out it's not RKFC yeah yeah which is smart I think like if you want - -800 -00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,000 -to make like a really hardcore low-level language and you only want people like - -801 -00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:10,360 -that around it's a pretty good trade-off yeah right like one big rust a zig - -802 -00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,640 -project this is ghosty terminal terminulator I think it's going to be - -803 -00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:18,560 -like it's going to be a really interesting like you know you write - -804 -00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,840 -code in these internals like I think it's going to kind of you know a little bit - -805 -00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,760 -more of a new next generation of that like it's gonna it's gonna it's gonna - -806 -00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,800 -it's gonna make a lot of interesting things possible and the guy did something - -807 -00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,560 -really interesting where he he announced this thing like a year and a half ago - -808 -00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,920 -he just made a closed beta where only he don't invite friends were like people - -809 -00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,160 -were proven zig contributes to certain zig and I was trying to get in there for - -810 -00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,920 -a year and he wouldn't let me in but I think it made sense because he was able - -811 -00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:46,280 -to have this tight community that gave really good feedback and he never had - -812 -00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:51,040 -to deal with idiots on github issues posting bad bug report yeah I think - -813 -00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,240 -to some extent that's kind of valuable yeah yeah that's the first thing would - -814 -00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:59,680 -be zig and the second thing I want to do is what's it called there are some - -815 -00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,320 -of these things where you can you don't like chain a frontier model I don't want - -816 -00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,800 -to trade a frontier model obviously like that's billions of dollars right yeah - -817 -00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,480 -I think there's one I forget the name of it there's some acronym where you can - -818 -00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,800 -train like sort of a layer on top of an existing model so you can take O-Lama - -819 -00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,040 -and like train a thin layer on top of it and you can actually do this on like - -820 -00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:22,000 -consumer computers okay like there are examples of lots of examples of people - -821 -00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,000 -like actually I might try this with zig I think it might actually work with zig on - -822 -00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,960 -my laptop or just renting a GPU right like they show like I've seen stuff about - -823 -00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:34,080 -how people did this and they were able to like a six dollar training run actually - -824 -00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,960 -I was going back with a chat GPT on this and it was like yeah I think I think I - -825 -00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:40,880 -could we had one conversation we was like yeah I think we could fix your zig - -826 -00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:45,320 -problems with a six dollar training run he really hesitated to give me a - -827 -00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,040 -number but I just kept asking over and over how much would it cost and then - -828 -00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:53,560 -finally six dollars I was like really I was expecting like 5,000 like I'm - -829 -00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,880 -touched I'm a total new but this thing but so like stuff like that would be - -830 -00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,840 -really fun I think like training I think it would be really fun to try like - -831 -00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:03,760 -these alignment layers you know like like there's one there's a guy in - -832 -00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:08,840 -Oster him someone who he he did like one little project he was trying to make - -833 -00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:11,200 -an alignment layer like one of these layers on top of it that basically - -834 -00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:16,080 -sensors it but do it on Oster data right so just make this thing talk like - -835 -00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,080 -take the intelligence that was done in the like frontier training run that - -836 -00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,800 -cost a bunch of money but then like sort of format in a way that makes it sound - -837 -00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,640 -like an Oster user I see like something like that would be kind of cool right I - -838 -00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:32,240 -don't know I think these like little mini mini training runs on for like - -839 -00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:36,480 -specific use cases I think would be really interesting I mean the obvious - -840 -00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:40,040 -one is I would just have it set up in my house and then I would have like the - -841 -00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:45,120 -biggest deep-seak model running and I would just spill my guts to it and all - -842 -00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,640 -my problems in life and all my difficulties and it would basically be - -843 -00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:52,880 -like my therapist yeah that's what I'm kind of trying to build out right now so - -844 -00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:57,600 -I told you I kind of regret that I stopped you know like appearing on - -845 -00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,520 -podcast yeah writing stuff and so on I mean the first podcast I've done in like - -846 -01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:06,800 -three years yeah the same for me pretty much and again like we we don't treat - -847 -01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:10,880 -it as a podcast it's a dialogue it's a conversation so yeah it's a walk - -848 -01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,240 -exactly I want to take developers on the walk and kind of you know pick the - -849 -01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:18,560 -brains that's the that's the point but but I the thing why I kind of regret it I - -850 -01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:23,360 -mean I had to do it I was like burning out so hard but but I I kind of regret it - -851 -01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:30,000 -because now I have a gap in my recordings in some sense and what I what I do in - -852 -01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,600 -these conversations also on the podcast I appeared in the past and so on also in - -853 -01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:37,360 -writing also in tweeting you know and now in like I mean I'm still tweeting on - -854 -01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:44,440 -not so like you know bite me but it's it's basically just just it's almost like - -855 -01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:49,440 -a diary yeah okay I'm not sharing it highly sensitive and private stuff and - -856 -01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,840 -so on like I share it's a diary in the sense of like letters were in like the - -857 -01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:57,360 -West yeah exactly publish your letters exactly and it's somewhat private but - -858 -01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:01,120 -it's also like a record of your it's just what's what's normal now is like - -859 -01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,600 -that that we up to now we only have the written word kind of yeah accessible to - -860 -01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:11,280 -people with letters and those kind of things and and and and now now I really - -861 -01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,480 -like physical artifacts I mean honestly that's the thing we really have for most - -862 -01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,880 -of them in history all we have is what pots did they make oh absolutely what - -863 -01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,800 -coins did they have what pots did they have what did their sorts of like yeah - -864 -01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:25,760 -what the houses like what how did they build you know like with obelisks and - -865 -01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,360 -those kind of things that's what that's the stuff that remains that's - -866 -01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:32,840 -actually something that I I kind of worry about a little bit of our like - -867 -01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:37,920 -current hyper digitalized civilization is like if things go south nothing will - -868 -01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:42,880 -remain yeah we don't we don't do clay tablets anymore I think we should you - -869 -01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:47,600 -know from time to time but anyway like what I when I the reason why I regret - -870 -01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:52,320 -having this gap now is because I I actually now I know that I can even - -871 -01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:56,240 -both this myself and this tooling with local models and local things like - -872 -01:01:56,240 --> 01:02:00,680 -privacy conscious basically and I just want to like you say almost like a - -873 -01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,000 -therapist but it's not really a therapist it's like a therapist slash - -874 -01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:07,840 -diary slash to do like a diamond I think Damon right yeah Damon in the - -875 -01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:12,160 -unique sense well no Damon and like the Greek like the Damon was like the - -876 -01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,280 -spirit you would kind of talk to the guy to you for your life almost like a - -877 -01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:19,320 -guardian exactly that's why that's why I talk about their day and that's why I - -878 -01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,480 -use yes and that's why I come back to rubber duct debugging because we know - -879 -01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,400 -it really works because a dialogue a conversation gets you out of the - -880 -01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:32,480 -self-centered monological thinking loop that you're in and then you can - -881 -01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:36,080 -think yourself in circles really easily yeah but you will get me out of my - -882 -01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:41,440 -circle yeah but an LLM or even chest sitting down and writing a diary entry - -883 -01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:47,040 -or or talking to yourself yeah will also get you out yeah and this is one thing - -884 -01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,560 -I would train on to is like making LLM's more disagreeable like that's one - -885 -01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:53,760 -thing that's really annoying about them oh yeah they agree with you all they're - -886 -01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:58,080 -both there yes man yeah I would much rather have one that is like that is - -887 -01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:02,720 -very conscious of the limits of their knowledge and very disagreeable like - -888 -01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:07,680 -yeah also like maybe it will say like that's a stupid idea yeah yeah exactly - -889 -01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,920 -I've never had an LLM tell me no it's but people tell me all the time yeah - -890 -01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:16,440 -large discrepancy yeah but the way I see it like what I want to build up now - -891 -01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:20,200 -again and I still have you know like I have my Twitter archive I have I don't - -892 -01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:24,520 -know like 200 recorded conversations those kind of things and and and so I - -893 -01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:30,080 -want to I want to put this all in a pile and have various agents kind of go - -894 -01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:34,400 -over it locally running like it's like just just having a transcript of this - -895 -01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:38,120 -stuff having it full text searchable having it summarized having it kind of - -896 -01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:42,680 -tagged yeah and like with timestamps and so on that's already so useful because - -897 -01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:48,200 -then I can go back and and can go like the January 2023 what I what did I - -898 -01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,800 -think about no sir versus I don't know like December 25 it's really hard to - -899 -01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:55,400 -remember stuff like that it is that's why that's why writing stuff down is so - -900 -01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,640 -insanely useful because you always evolve and you also forget the insights - -901 -01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,720 -that you had in the past and all those kind of things so that's kind of what I - -902 -01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:08,280 -what I'm what I'm aiming at right now but yeah we'll see maybe maybe we'll - -903 -01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:13,240 -need to seek for some of the tooling so yeah you won't should I pie you should - -904 -01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:19,080 -I buy you a GPU yeah yeah yeah I can contribute with like what one or two - -905 -01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,440 -graphics cards like yeah it's not an issue I mean what I should do is is just - -906 -01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:27,200 -get like a cheap video gaming one and just learn what even is a GP like I've - -907 -01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:30,680 -never done what even is a GP you know like what even how do you talk to - -908 -01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:33,440 -it like philosophical questions yeah you know but like what do you how do you - -909 -01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,520 -feed that fucking vectors and matrices into this and have it do something - -910 -01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:40,760 -useful I don't know I have a math degree I don't know I have no idea what - -911 -01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:45,240 -did you do it you never did like an n-body simulation on the GPU no I've - -912 -01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:51,240 -never done GPU programming to my knowledge I'm not an autism I keep - -913 -01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,760 -trying to tell you this I'm not I keep I keep this I've been cosplaying all - -914 -01:04:55,760 --> 01:05:00,640 -these years I'm a pretender so you stepped up now you're the idea guy now - -915 -01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:05,360 -yeah this is the thing is like dude the age of the idea guys has begun yeah - -916 -01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:09,520 -right yeah yeah yeah I really hope that I can have my - -917 -01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:15,440 -by-blind kind of in shape and and and ready for the public basically yeah - -918 -01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:20,480 -rather sooner than later because I really think that that there's a lot of - -919 -01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:27,320 -people have really good ideas and no way of executing on them in any way shape - -920 -01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,760 -of format to be fair execution is the hard part like ideas are a dime a - -921 -01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:38,440 -that everyone knows that but I think it's still super valuable to to again - -922 -01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,960 -that's the whole point though is like the oh I'm just kind of oftentimes kind of - -923 -01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:45,160 -good at execution especially have a team of them yeah and execution it's - -924 -01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:48,760 -really cheap what works for one person works for another oh there's a funny - -925 -01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,680 -one yet cheap like I saw somebody say a really funny quote where they were like - -926 -01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,400 -you know it's like some kind of lefty person that you know doesn't like - -927 -01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:59,440 -global warming and they were like you know every time I use an LLM to do some - -928 -01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:03,360 -data processing I really think about how it costs 10 or a thousand times more - -929 -01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:07,280 -to do this with an LLM than to do like some some standard programming tool - -930 -01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:11,080 -right yeah and I also think about you consumption yeah yeah but then I also - -931 -01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:14,600 -think about how it's a thousand times cheaper than if a human did it yeah - -932 -01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:18,920 -it's like yeah cheap you know it's like it's like it's depending on the - -933 -01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:22,480 -metric yeah yeah monetarily cheap because it's girls so well yeah energy - -934 -01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:26,880 -expensive yeah I mean other than our way more energy so I started to try to - -935 -01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:29,400 -move away from cursor right where everything's integrated into one thing - -936 -01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:34,680 -and to do it you know kind of put pieces together myself a little more the like - -937 -01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,480 -the actual thing I used to chat with Claude is Claude Code their command - -938 -01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:42,080 -line yeah thing and an interesting thing about it is that they don't you know - -939 -01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,760 -with with cursor everything is part of a subscription like 20 bucks a month yeah - -940 -01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:51,760 -and they probably heavily subsidize it because yeah it's like it's like if you - -941 -01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,480 -use Claude Code even if you have a Claude membership they charge per token - -942 -01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:58,880 -and so if you'll you'll go back and forth and oftentimes my little sessions for - -943 -01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,920 -one feature will cost like a dollar and it's kind of it is reframing my thought - -944 -01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:07,520 -on microtransactions to some a little oh yeah sure I mean because because you - -945 -01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:11,960 -usually I've always believed this idea of you know the micro track transactions - -946 -01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:15,880 -might not like the the mental class idea from Zabo right like maybe that'll - -947 -01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,120 -prevent it I think it's actually right but if you integrate it with with - -948 -01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:21,640 -Nostra you don't have to think about it in that sense you know what I mean - -949 -01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:25,120 -no I don't like the mental cost is like the the weekly you look back on the - -950 -01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:27,880 -weekends like okay this much I spent you don't have to think about every single - -951 -01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:31,440 -microtransaction but it's still a microtransaction yeah and not a credit line - -952 -01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:34,080 -and that makes all the difference and that's why that's appearing now we have - -953 -01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:38,920 -the pay per queue thing yeah yeah and like with the with the MCP stuff you - -954 -01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:43,800 -mentioned like Jesus is working on the DB MCP yeah things like bridging all that - -955 -01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:48,520 -to Nostra and using Nostra as the substrate for AI model context stuff and - -956 -01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:52,920 -micro payments which makes all the sense in this world you see for any like - -957 -01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:55,400 -how often you see how much money you're spending you just have a budget you see - -958 -01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,880 -what sure you can we can already with Nostra what connects that I'm a budget - -959 -01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:03,840 -so the funny thing is that like this what why this these experiences cloud code - -960 -01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:06,680 -are kind of interesting is because every at the end of every you know session you - -961 -01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:11,720 -like control D it twice to exit and you and it helps print out how much it cost - -962 -01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:15,600 -yeah and I actually enjoy seeing how much it costs every time I put a deal - -963 -01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:20,360 -man what a deal I got it for 92 cents I was expecting now it's like you get - -964 -01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:23,840 -out of the casino or something and then it's like oh my Lord you usually you - -965 -01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,600 -know this is one of the first times where I'm basically doing microtransactions - -966 -01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:32,120 -and I enjoy like I don't really mind maybe it's because I feel like I'm - -967 -01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:36,120 -getting a good deal but I mind a lot less seeing the price you know I see yeah - -968 -01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:39,760 -it's usually usually every time you see money going out it's kind of stressful - -969 -01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:44,960 -yeah but again it just shows you how much it's so honest compared to like - -970 -01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:48,960 -what your experiences with like a credit card statement or you're like you know - -971 -01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:53,120 -I don't know I probably got five subscriptions right now there's very few - -972 -01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:57,360 -things that we don't have thing me for two years now I mean I think I think it's - -973 -01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,840 -because of the payments I talked with Kali about this you know it's like how - -974 -01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:03,320 -payments fuck the internet in a large degree yeah it's not only the mental - -975 -01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:06,560 -transaction cost it's but it's interesting that there's very few things - -976 -01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:10,880 -that we pay by the meter it's basically it's like gasoline yeah for your car - -977 -01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:16,560 -and and electricity yeah more or less yeah and the water bill may basically - -978 -01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:19,820 -like that's that's kind of everything else is kind of like a flat - -979 -01:09:19,820 --> 01:09:25,840 -funny like the most hard necessities of life food kind of paid by the meter - -980 -01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:29,680 -yeah you know yeah I think compute is going to be a necessity like this as - -981 -01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:32,960 -well and I don't even differentiate like the only people that have a food - -982 -01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:36,480 -subscription are the ones on welfare basically are students you know some - -983 -01:09:36,480 --> 01:09:40,200 -sort of welfare yeah so so I think I think compute is going to be a - -984 -01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:43,120 -necessity as well and I don't even differentiate between compute and - -985 -01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:46,680 -storage because to me there is no difference like let's say I want a photo - -986 -01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:50,240 -of a flower that I want to use somewhere and I know I have it on my heart drive - -987 -01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:54,280 -there's to me is no difference whether I store this photo and I find it or I - -988 -01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:57,760 -generate it on the fly yeah you know so for many things kind of storage and - -989 -01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:01,600 -compute are almost equivalent yeah it's like Laurie Mipson or whatever it's - -990 -01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:05,800 -like do I have to have it stored on my heart is somewhere in a sense and I was - -991 -01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:09,840 -actually a storage technology right like in a sense I mean what's like what - -992 -01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:13,520 -like someone a memory well someone had a good point where it's like you know can - -993 -01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:16,640 -you think we've got memory no he's like we've lost a lot of history of the - -994 -01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:19,840 -early Internet right the websites just went away yeah in a sense they retained - -995 -01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:23,040 -in the context of these large language models because they could you know - -996 -01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:26,520 -they're trained on it right like the training runs from two years ago the - -997 -01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:29,720 -training the training runs for two years ago and code websites that are now - -998 -01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:34,800 -gone forever that's an interesting thought yeah yeah so they are a storage - -999 -01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:38,800 -technology in a sense I mean especially the really big ones I mean intelligence - -1000 -01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:43,120 -thinking and storage are very much interrelated you need memory to to to - -1001 -01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:48,200 -think like yeah thinking is about the future and to access the future you need - -1002 -01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:53,200 -to access the past kind of mm-hmm it's it's yeah it's strange how it's all - -1003 -01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:59,000 -interconnected but but yeah I think compute will be compute will be metered - -1004 -01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:02,720 -is I guess what I'm trying to say yeah yeah and you need to have a micro - -1005 -01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:07,000 -payment substrate to make it all work because the credit overhead at the - -1006 -01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:10,680 -credit risk just kills you I mean the other thing that's really interesting - -1007 -01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:14,480 -about it is like I found my there's something kind of magical but actually - -1008 -01:11:14,480 --> 01:11:18,400 -seeing the like I'd never been interested in GPUs until I saw that number - -1009 -01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:22,520 -from Claude actually like that's what started getting me interested like okay - -1010 -01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:26,000 -so that's what a token costs right like I never really thought people always - -1011 -01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:29,400 -talk about tokens and again I said this we're walking in a circle right now and - -1012 -01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:32,240 -every time I reach this to topic at the spot I'm like Gigi I'm not an - -1013 -01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:37,240 -artist time we pass this literally we're rocking the circle I make the same - -1014 -01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:41,720 -point every time we get to this don't break out of the circle yeah yeah but I - -1015 -01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:46,680 -never tried it so I'm like whatever I don't care what a token is but it was - -1016 -01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,840 -kind of interesting like it's like okay 97 cents it's like 20,000 tokens or - -1017 -01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:53,600 -whatever interesting okay so I'm actually so like the interesting thing is like - -1018 -01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:58,560 -it got me to think in terms of like the human action you know like you need - -1019 -01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:06,320 -like for stuff to get better a human needs to act like you know - -1020 -01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:10,840 -economize between scarce resources yeah I mean you have to see the price yeah - -1021 -01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:14,560 -you have to see the cost like you have to you have to actually pay yeah and a - -1022 -01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:18,680 -sense and a sense it's a lot more it's it's like at least in my own personal - -1023 -01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:22,920 -experience as soon as I started seeing the actual cost for the actual tokens I - -1024 -01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:27,920 -was consuming for the actual matrix math I was doing in a GPU I didn't start - -1025 -01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:32,480 -actually thinking like a human actor as much yeah right because I start like if - -1026 -01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:37,400 -it's all just like I got a like a fiat cuck cursor subscription and I'm just - -1027 -01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:41,960 -I'm just being spoon fed right like I didn't think that way but as soon as I - -1028 -01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:47,480 -start seeing the tokens I'm like okay it's like an abstraction right yeah well - -1029 -01:12:47,480 --> 01:12:51,160 -but it's and it's like you don't act like you don't you're not faced with like - -1030 -01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:54,560 -you cannot act on the instructions it's the point yeah yeah it has to be real the - -1031 -01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:58,240 -cost has to be real the decision has to be real and that's why that's why - -1032 -01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:03,120 -simulations don't work like like it's it's that I mean that's why sacrifice and - -1033 -01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:06,480 -other things are a thing like it has to be real you have to make it real otherwise - -1034 -01:13:06,480 --> 01:13:11,200 -it will not change how you act and how you think about it basically like if - -1035 -01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:15,760 -if there are there are no consequences to reaction it it it will not influence - -1036 -01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:19,800 -your behavior if there are actual consequences then then it will change - -1037 -01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:24,680 -your behavior going over like a slack line you know without a harness and - -1038 -01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:27,800 -without like any protection it's very different they're just doing the same - -1039 -01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,440 -thing and they're like it's inconsequential if you fall that that's why I - -1040 -01:13:31,440 --> 01:13:34,680 -want to try that's I want to try like renting GPUs and doing some training - -1041 -01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:39,240 -and stuff because it's gonna like it's like what is actually happening yeah - -1042 -01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:43,800 -cost what is the brass tacks going on here like what is what is the because I - -1043 -01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,440 -think that like that's another thing like what is kind of unique about a human - -1044 -01:13:47,440 --> 01:13:50,920 -it's like well that's the one kind of the fundamental insight of like - -1045 -01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:55,440 -Austrian economics people is like it's this economizing process this you this - -1046 -01:13:55,440 --> 01:14:00,360 -what's the word praxia you know the praxialogical whatever the fuck you - -1047 -01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:05,280 -know you know that that act of actually choosing you taking action yeah that's - -1048 -01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:10,360 -the real magic and yeah there's something interesting about micro - -1049 -01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:14,680 -transactions in this context at least it's like sort of activate that you in a - -1050 -01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:19,440 -lot more than like a just a subscription does yeah it's and it doesn't again it - -1051 -01:14:19,440 --> 01:14:28,920 -removes the abstraction and it it shows you both on the on the consumer side and - -1052 -01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:33,360 -on the service side kind of the reality of how people are using it and what is - -1053 -01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:39,440 -kind of most needed it's like a more you know it's a more free market dynamic - -1054 -01:14:39,440 --> 01:14:47,640 -in some sense mm-hmm you're gonna need some tobacco to think mostly yeah we're - -1055 -01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:51,640 -gonna we're gonna get some some some snooze sometimes there we go Norwegian - -1056 -01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:56,840 -well yeah that's a bit dangerous in the conversation just gets out of hand yeah - -1057 -01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:05,520 -everyone's dizzy yeah so should we try to break out of the loop and hit the - -1058 -01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:09,120 -other park across yeah it works let's try a few more rounds I think I'll probably - -1059 -01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:14,760 -go insane here walking in circles yeah yeah - -1060 -01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:20,680 -no it's good imagine another thing you don't I mean yeah in a dialogue you - -1061 -01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:24,840 -don't want to be economize it you know like no I want to be you don't want to be - -1062 -01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:28,560 -acting in some sense right you just a circle is actually kind of natural but - -1063 -01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:32,800 -how don't others but that's also that's also something where where you all I think - -1064 -01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:38,640 -I keep I keep trying to let me know sorry it's like that thing did I get a - -1065 -01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,840 -good deal there right like that's that's the thing that was interesting about - -1066 -01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:46,440 -seeing the number I paid which is a question hides yeah yeah because then - -1067 -01:15:46,440 --> 01:15:51,920 -you're like you're like you become much more aware of the cost of what you're - -1068 -01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:57,720 -doing and like you improve you're like yes if I yeah if I am advertising my - -1069 -01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:02,080 -effort across is 20 no matter how I spend it yeah I don't improve as a - -1070 -01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:07,560 -prompter as much yeah but if I see yeah every every word this is another Jordan - -1071 -01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:12,040 -it's like you that's why UBI is a terrible every word I put into this thing - -1072 -01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:17,960 -cost me yeah so you sort of where it's carefully you sort of speak you you - -1073 -01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:22,280 -write more deliberately and thoughtfully this way yeah because everything has a - -1074 -01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:27,280 -cost yeah which absolutely everything does and every time you try to pamper - -1075 -01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:30,520 -over the cost yeah paper over the cost in some sense yeah like a subscription - -1076 -01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:34,080 -does yeah you kind of destroy some sort of signal some costly I mean it's - -1077 -01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:36,480 -funny that I say this too because I'm just thinking the first time I did this - -1078 -01:16:36,480 --> 01:16:41,600 -after Tony mentioned it I quit and it was like four dollars I just spent a - -1079 -01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:48,120 -fifth of a month and one on one thing right now you have a different view - -1080 -01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:53,360 -yeah in a sense that I prefer it now even though my first reaction was like - -1081 -01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:58,320 -what a ripoff yeah interesting interesting it's funny by the way that you - -1082 -01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:02,320 -know like it's 2025 now and we still talk about tokens it's just the tokens - -1083 -01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:05,520 -changed like 2017 and 18 we talked about yeah yeah shit coin tokens - -1084 -01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:14,760 -yeah yeah now it's compute though it's basically I guess all right let's go up - -1085 -01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:18,160 -here previously I worked in like FinTech where are we no like let's walk out - -1086 -01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:22,320 -here that's that's better and back in like 2015 16 everyone's on tokens and - -1087 -01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:26,560 -that but it was all in terms of like sort of opening up their APIs oh I see - -1088 -01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:30,720 -whatever if they use the word token or is like something like that it was all - -1089 -01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:34,080 -about like how do you pass an authentic authentication credential between - -1090 -01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:37,440 -payment processors yeah and stuff so like the people that had the really - -1091 -01:17:37,440 --> 01:17:40,160 -valuable moats like some payment processor that doesn't innovate at all - -1092 -01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:44,800 -how do they open it up to like FinTech people so that was basically all about - -1093 -01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:49,040 -tokens as well like FinTech was all about tokens how do you make a rest API that - -1094 -01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:52,920 -opens up some valuable system and unlocks entrepreneurship I think what what we - -1095 -01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:58,120 -are what we are kind of heading into now is that we're gonna send e-cash tokens - -1096 -01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:03,560 -to something and we'll get back yeah this is really I told this and we can use - -1097 -01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:06,920 -them up I started working on e-cash like three I didn't think about this especially - -1098 -01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:11,240 -after talking to Cali more and it's like I'm working on e-cash for like three - -1099 -01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:14,680 -years ago yeah I've worked on a long time and I don't think I've internalized it - -1100 -01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:19,080 -all how important it is really again you are too close to the metal yeah you - -1101 -01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:22,960 -are too close to the metal you are trying to make the thing work that's also why - -1102 -01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:27,760 -how I am different from you in in in in the large degree it's like I don't see - -1103 -01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:33,480 -myself as a coder or even like software architect guy I'm first and foremost I'm - -1104 -01:18:33,480 --> 01:18:40,080 -a power user yeah I'm I'm like I'm I try to use both Bitcoin and Noster and - -1105 -01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:44,920 -LLM stuff like as hard as I can yeah I don't I don't I don't see myself you - -1106 -01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:48,680 -know like building an e-cash system from scratch I might buy code it's funny I'm - -1107 -01:18:48,680 --> 01:18:52,240 -not a power user actually and I try to be but I struggle that's what I'm that's - -1108 -01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:56,040 -what I'm that's what I mean you know and so and so I've had period I've tried - -1109 -01:18:56,040 --> 01:18:59,800 -something before and I just can't have the discipline to like like I see the - -1110 -01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:04,160 -idea I want the lifestyle but I can't actually pull it off but that's true in - -1111 -01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:07,480 -the Bitcoin world as well where people we have like core deficit like - -1112 -01:19:07,480 --> 01:19:12,920 -insanely knowledgeable Bitcoin people that never really use Bitcoin across the - -1113 -01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:15,960 -border with 12 words in their head or something like that or like you know - -1114 -01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:19,320 -I'm pretty primitive with how I use well yeah aside from like cold storage I'm - -1115 -01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:24,120 -I'm kind of like a but but it's worse than most people but it's a it's a different - -1116 -01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:26,560 -it's a different kind of understanding and again coming back to - -1117 -01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:30,200 -where we're making it talks about a lot it's like participatory knowing like if - -1118 -01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:34,880 -you actually if you actually have to flee a country and you put 12 words in - -1119 -01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:38,360 -your head and you cross the border basically naked and you pop out the - -1120 -01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:43,280 -other end yeah and you you you have your wealth in text yeah and you start a new - -1121 -01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:47,320 -life with 12 words in your head that's a different kind of knowing of what - -1122 -01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:52,640 -Bitcoin is and what it can do then kind of knowing how exactly like you know - -1123 -01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:56,120 -the the mempool policy works yeah whatever you know what I mean yeah yeah - -1124 -01:19:56,120 --> 01:19:58,960 -and there's plenty of people that never really use Bitcoin but they're very - -1125 -01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:02,880 -close to Bitcoin but they you know if anything use it as like a savings - -1126 -01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:07,040 -technology or what have you yeah and I think that's true for the e-cash and the - -1127 -01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:09,920 -LLM stuff and all those kind of things as well it's like you you have to - -1128 -01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:15,720 -actually use you know like e-cash wrappers like like you know I mean in a - -1129 -01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:19,160 -sense I could almost see you're not gonna like this but I could almost see - -1130 -01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:24,080 -noss or going down it's like like in the history books is like this was this - -1131 -01:20:24,080 --> 01:20:28,880 -was the germination pond for e-cash you know because this is where all this - -1132 -01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:31,920 -some of the most interesting little experiments were like what sort of - -1133 -01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:35,280 -stupid thing can you do with these tokens yeah it turns out to be actually - -1134 -01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:39,600 -into like profound right it's gonna it's gonna it's gonna what gets us out of - -1135 -01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:43,320 -the many of the finite future many of the like you actually have to rest my - -1136 -01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:47,720 -leg for usability like steps forward it feels like just some guy doesn't know I - -1137 -01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:51,960 -got a really stupid idea for what to do on yeah noss is the only place I can - -1138 -01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:55,440 -try it and it's also that's the only way I can find another guy with an e-cash - -1139 -01:20:55,440 --> 01:21:00,400 -lots lots lots of the coolest things we ever both came out of like it let's - -1140 -01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:04,240 -just fucking do it for fun yeah because we kind of can do it and that's what I - -1141 -01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:07,040 -love so much about the buy-coding stuff and that's kind of I think also the - -1142 -01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:09,880 -point of serving engineering again I wanted to come back to that because I'm - -1143 -01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:12,800 -still trying to figure out what the thing is what what are we actually doing - -1144 -01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:19,200 -here and and and so so I think it is to have a test bed and access to other - -1145 -01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:24,280 -minds that that that that that are at a similar level where you are I mean like - -1146 -01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:27,760 -let's be real how many people are there in the world right now that you can talk - -1147 -01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:32,960 -in-depth about e-cash and not stir and all this stuff that we discussed there's - -1148 -01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:37,280 -I don't know like let's it hundreds yeah it's not thousands it's it's very hard - -1149 -01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:42,800 -to to to to and try to talk with regular software guy about this stuff oh it will - -1150 -01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:45,920 -take you two years to the worst conversation ever it's terrible I don't - -1151 -01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:50,200 -even bring this stuff up anymore you you can't because there the the the knowledge - -1152 -01:21:50,200 --> 01:21:54,000 -gap is so wide that you can't even have a meaningful conversation it makes me - -1153 -01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:58,960 -dislike a Bitcoin and Nostromor you know I have to explain it so he doesn't get it - -1154 -01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:02,680 -I'm like oh god but that's also why that's also why I think Bitcoiners are so - -1155 -01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:07,040 -hated in some sense because it's like it's just all gibberish to the regular - -1156 -01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:11,080 -person that that that isn't up to speed with that stuff just like you know - -1157 -01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:14,240 -not starting dvm stuff and e-cash stuff it's like it's all gibberish to to many - -1158 -01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:17,720 -people I think but it's so cool to work with other people that see the - -1159 -01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:22,040 -potential in this technology and try and just experiment with it like what - -1160 -01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:27,360 -you know is really good at is like in like software systems like some of them - -1161 -01:22:27,360 --> 01:22:31,640 -are really really really powerful but it's in takes an incredible amount of - -1162 -01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:35,480 -lift to do anything yeah right like like you know if you're trying to work - -1163 -01:22:35,480 --> 01:22:40,160 -with like some compiler technology or something like yeah like leverage LLVM - -1164 -01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:43,820 -like LLVM just like low-language compiler toolkit and it's like you can do - -1165 -01:22:43,820 --> 01:22:47,440 -amazing so this is what rust is built on this is what so many these like new - -1166 -01:22:47,440 --> 01:22:51,560 -zig was built on it like they're all built on the stuff but it's like you - -1167 -01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:55,120 -know you want to do a prototype two years and you gotta be like a genius to do - -1168 -01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:59,920 -it and like so like that's one extreme and I look at Nostra maybe the best - -1169 -01:22:59,920 --> 01:23:03,840 -part about is it's like the other hardcore hard side of the bell curve - -1170 -01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:09,680 -where like you can you can do something in half an hour you know and you can do - -1171 -01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:13,440 -something non-trivial in half an hour and deploy it and have people use it - -1172 -01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:17,720 -right that's like one of the coolest things about Nostra is that you can - -1173 -01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:24,540 -like exercise this creative agency with you like can't really get much output - -1174 -01:23:24,540 --> 01:23:28,000 -faster that will involve other people too like you can do something that's - -1175 -01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:30,920 -only you on your computer but a cool thing about Nostra is you can like make - -1176 -01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:35,280 -something deploy it now somebody play with it we've done these demos at SEC - -1177 -01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:38,760 -where like somebody like I think a Paul's hypertext thing we make the stories - -1178 -01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:43,200 -yeah thing that can like embed a dynamic widget for like a tip button inside this - -1179 -01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:48,320 -Instagram stories type type UI and he'll demo it and there's the URL I mean I'll - -1180 -01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:52,400 -pull up on our phones and like play with it right like that's immediate and - -1181 -01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:55,640 -life and it's like that's what always happens like someone demos something and - -1182 -01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:58,760 -shows something off and if there is like a lightning invoice to pay someone - -1183 -01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:02,320 -yeah someone someone in the audience will pay it if there is an interactive - -1184 -01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:05,480 -element someone will will immediately jump on the developer point if you have - -1185 -01:24:05,480 --> 01:24:09,440 -one of the best things about Nostra is that it's like like one of the hardest - -1186 -01:24:09,440 --> 01:24:13,360 -things about any sort of like creative new like indie hacking style - -1187 -01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:16,680 -development is how do you get those first hundred users yeah 10 users like it's - -1188 -01:24:16,680 --> 01:24:22,280 -all it's often like very difficult yeah and that's like and the cool thing about - -1189 -01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:25,680 -Nostra is like in a sense your users already exist yeah like they're already - -1190 -01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:30,600 -off to your system yeah they they I mean they might have to hit a little - -1191 -01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:35,560 -button in their you know their all the extension to use your thing but like - -1192 -01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:39,480 -they they already have a username and password to your database more or less - -1193 -01:24:39,480 --> 01:24:44,440 -right like and it's also discovery is building in some sense yeah it's it's like - -1194 -01:24:44,440 --> 01:24:47,840 -I stumble over new Nostra apps and things all the time yeah and it's just - -1195 -01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:51,640 -like out there in this strange universe and you can just very easily stumble - -1196 -01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:55,040 -that's why that's why I mean it's probably kind of you know if I was if I - -1197 -01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:57,640 -put myself in the shoes of somebody listening to this and they're like okay - -1198 -01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:01,040 -Justin's here he's gonna talk about Bitcoin or something and we haven't - -1199 -01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:04,360 -talked about Bitcoin we just thought we know that much - -1200 -01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:08,560 -it's assumed but it's it's like that's why the all-am stuff is kind of like in - -1201 -01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:12,320 -this cohort I don't think we planned on talking about AI at all no and then - -1202 -01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:16,200 -it's all we're really talking about are doing and it's I think part of it is - -1203 -01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:18,440 -because it is a good you know we're thinking about talking about Nostra - -1204 -01:25:18,440 --> 01:25:23,480 -and it is actually a good fit because like Nostra you can you know you can - -1205 -01:25:23,480 --> 01:25:29,160 -an all-am can spit out like a novel cool if you have an idea in Nostra an all-am - -1206 -01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:33,560 -can spit out a demo in like five minutes yes yeah you can actually that's that's - -1207 -01:25:33,560 --> 01:25:38,240 -one of the reasons why whereas like an LLVM engineer like it's the complete - -1208 -01:25:38,240 --> 01:25:42,040 -opposite really this is useless yeah like I have to spend years to get anywhere - -1209 -01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:45,880 -this might carve off a little time but not much and it's even more than that I - -1210 -01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:49,440 -hope I hope to talk with Pablo about it soon he is currently building out his - -1211 -01:25:49,440 --> 01:25:55,720 -whole kind of you know vibe coding LLM stack to use Nostra directly not only - -1212 -01:25:55,720 --> 01:26:05,280 -in the DVM CP context where like the the MCP stuff is on Nostra but also the - -1213 -01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:10,720 -output of his various tools is pushed to relays and other tools can can grab - -1214 -01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:15,600 -it from there and he can interact with the notes and the stuff that is produced - -1215 -01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:20,360 -on Nostra where it's just like here's the output like to use your example it's - -1216 -01:26:20,360 --> 01:26:23,520 -like okay here is what I built here is a screenshot and you just you see it on - -1217 -01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:27,320 -your phone you reply to the note and it picks it up again yeah so I think I think - -1218 -01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:33,640 -it's almost like Nostra is a QA yeah no but not like a stylistic QA like a - -1219 -01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:39,040 -product QA but but we are the beautiful thing I think about this is is if it's - -1220 -01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:43,360 -out in the open that's why that I kind of I kind of hate the M's and this was - -1221 -01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:48,040 -back in the Twitter days as well because if you and I talk about this all the - -1222 -01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:52,000 -time if you have a question for me just ask out in the open unless it's like - -1223 -01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:55,720 -super hyper confidential and so on because I might not be the best person to - -1224 -01:26:55,720 --> 01:26:59,800 -answer it yeah someone else might pick it up and know it that you can blast it - -1225 -01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:03,720 -to like 20,000 people yeah just just ask it out in the open and I think for it - -1226 -01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:07,520 -for the LLM stuff as well it's like you know other other agents can pick it up - -1227 -01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:10,560 -other things can pick it up if you for example with your screenshot idea it's - -1228 -01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:13,720 -like you show that's why that's why streaming is also a thing it's very - -1229 -01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:17,400 -useful you know like you show what what you're building it posts screenshots and - -1230 -01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:21,160 -stuff for whatever snippets to Nostra people can comment on it people can you - -1231 -01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:25,960 -know like even make it better you can open up you can open up the prompting for - -1232 -01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:30,400 -example to a select group of people yeah to to you know a certain subset of your - -1233 -01:27:30,400 --> 01:27:33,400 -web of trust or what have you it's I think it's super interesting I think it - -1234 -01:27:33,400 --> 01:27:38,320 -really is the perfect the perfect substrate for like a human agent environment - -1235 -01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:41,320 -another interesting about this sort of like working in public space is working - -1236 -01:27:41,320 --> 01:27:45,080 -in public idea yeah like another interesting thing like I find that on - -1237 -01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:49,360 -Twitter very stressful because it's like at any moment you could not come - -1238 -01:27:49,360 --> 01:27:52,960 -well no yeah you could become the guy like every once in a while someone does - -1239 -01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:56,200 -something stupid and they are the topic of conversation that day about how - -1240 -01:27:56,200 --> 01:28:00,160 -stupid they are yeah and it's it's a little stressful to have you know to be - -1241 -01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:10,000 -one virality yeah event away from that yeah but the like it requires a certain - -1242 -01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:14,160 -thick skin and also just a you have to prepare yourself for that yeah I did it - -1243 -01:28:14,160 --> 01:28:17,600 -first to some you know let's get a lot on Twitter for a couple years but I've - -1244 -01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:20,720 -basically flatlined my followers like five years now I think I've gained like - -1245 -01:28:20,720 --> 01:28:25,280 -50 followers in five years I just stopped trying to engage participate on - -1246 -01:28:25,280 --> 01:28:28,080 -the globe I mean it's funny on the nauseous like I stopped trying to - -1247 -01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:31,400 -participate at the global level right yeah in the beginning I would try to - -1248 -01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:35,120 -tweet and try to get attention from people outside my circle yeah and like - -1249 -01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:38,400 -four or five years ago I think during covid I just decided to stop I just - -1250 -01:28:38,400 --> 01:28:41,360 -didn't really want to do that anymore and the interesting thing about noster is - -1251 -01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:46,120 -that you can sort of live in public in a sense it's easier because first of all - -1252 -01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:49,280 -like noster doesn't really have virality to the same degree that Twitter does - -1253 -01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:53,000 -right like yeah yes I would say yeah yeah but I mean in a sense there's no you - -1254 -01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:56,720 -know if there's no global right to some extent like there's there is a - -1255 -01:28:56,720 --> 01:29:02,400 -friction against there's a headwind to virality on noster yeah where Twitter - -1256 -01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:06,440 -actually has a tailwind right like they want if there's something that is like - -1257 -01:29:06,440 --> 01:29:12,200 -eyeballable yeah they want that they want everyone to see that right like you - -1258 -01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:16,680 -know like Elon applies this to himself right yeah I'm sure he makes sure he's - -1259 -01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:20,280 -got a tailwind on all his tweets right they're being pushed out much more than - -1260 -01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:24,280 -they would organically and so I think that's from like a living from like a - -1261 -01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:28,400 -living in public point of view like if you're going to do stuff like streaming - -1262 -01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:31,760 -the streaming is also kind of scary right it's like sure you know like what if I - -1263 -01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:35,080 -actually pull up some of my notes that have some embarrassing anecdote or some - -1264 -01:29:35,080 --> 01:29:38,960 -some stuff about anime that I don't want everyone to know that I let you know - -1265 -01:29:38,960 --> 01:29:42,880 -like you know it's kind of scary to have your computer - -1266 -01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:48,680 -available to the internet or what if I pull up my emails you know like it is - -1267 -01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:54,320 -kind of nice that it's that it's a smaller graph yeah like there's some - -1268 -01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:57,360 -complaints about noster not growing a lot but that's actually like I found - -1269 -01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:01,520 -myself not using Twitter a lot much since I got to SEC and part of it is - -1270 -01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:04,240 -because I like that there's only there aren't that there's enough people to - -1271 -01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:07,040 -talk there's enough people I like on noster but there aren't that many more - -1272 -01:30:07,040 --> 01:30:13,960 -you know so I think in a sense it's a it's a benefit of noster being like like - -1273 -01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:18,280 -you know if if noster grew very big and succeeded quote-unquote in that sense - -1274 -01:30:18,280 --> 01:30:23,040 -like in some sense I hope it would still be usable in a way that I'm in just a - -1275 -01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:26,960 -wall garden with 24 yeah 20,000 people right like yeah I don't know if I want - -1276 -01:30:26,960 --> 01:30:30,160 -I mean unless I have something to sell for example if you have something to - -1277 -01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:35,600 -sell you'd much rather be have a wider reach but like just for some some sort - -1278 -01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:40,680 -of a quote-unquote authentic authentic uses like a smaller graph is more - -1279 -01:30:40,680 --> 01:30:44,120 -beneficial right I think I think that's what noster excels at and I think that's - -1280 -01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:47,640 -also thing of what though like the Piraeus or whatever like the where of - -1281 -01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:50,880 -Socrates taught yeah the place where he would go on his walks you know down by - -1282 -01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:54,920 -the port and Athens it's like how many people were in that dialogic sphere - -1283 -01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:59,640 -yeah 50,000 20,000 there weren't that many people you we were limited by - -1284 -01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:03,280 -physical space for that and I think I think we will also be I think we see - -1285 -01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:05,720 -this emerging now on the internet not only on noster but I think that's what - -1286 -01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:08,640 -noster is yeah it's like you're limited by intellectual space there's only so - -1287 -01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:12,360 -many people that can talk meaningfully that can't meaningfully participate in - -1288 -01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:16,120 -this conversation so it's gonna remain small by one and also it's like there's - -1289 -01:31:16,120 --> 01:31:20,720 -not always like there's not always like a right way for a thing to evolve right - -1290 -01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:26,160 -like oh no there's many like that's what actual diversity is is like yeah if - -1291 -01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:31,120 -you if you if you segregate something off like a physical organism for like in - -1292 -01:31:31,120 --> 01:31:34,800 -Madagascar for a hundred million years or something it becomes interesting you - -1293 -01:31:34,800 --> 01:31:37,160 -get like a lemur or something right I think lemur's different maybe - -1294 -01:31:37,640 --> 01:31:42,720 -else but like you get like an interesting thing and so like like that's - -1295 -01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:46,800 -something like you know if Athens had was the size of the United States yeah it - -1296 -01:31:46,800 --> 01:31:49,960 -would have never been a different things yeah like you could have never you could - -1297 -01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:53,960 -have never had what it was and that's one of things is sort of disturbing about - -1298 -01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:58,800 -the modern world is it's like it's like it's like one village now and so you - -1299 -01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:05,600 -don't actually get much you know like stuff can't really evolve and become - -1300 -01:32:05,600 --> 01:32:09,640 -like an interesting subculture to the same degree if it's on the global feed - -1301 -01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:13,200 -yeah because it just it gets everything gets pulled back to the mean I will link - -1302 -01:32:13,200 --> 01:32:16,920 -to this article as well with like how how our interfaces and at the world at - -1303 -01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:20,040 -large lost its texture basically yeah it's like everything looks the same all - -1304 -01:32:20,040 --> 01:32:22,840 -the clothes look the same I mean we're wearing the same stuff yeah we are - -1305 -01:32:22,840 --> 01:32:26,240 -literally dressed almost the same we look the same yeah but it's true for like - -1306 -01:32:26,240 --> 01:32:29,680 -almost everyone it's all the same it's like we all have the same devices - -1307 -01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:32,920 -everyone is the same cars everyone is like I had a beard like I go beard it - -1308 -01:32:32,920 --> 01:32:38,560 -really you look like the same guy really it's really bad and and so so I - -1309 -01:32:38,560 --> 01:32:41,240 -think there's something to it but I think it's also interesting how for - -1310 -01:32:41,240 --> 01:32:45,400 -example there there was this distinct difference between Twitter and Bitcoin - -1311 -01:32:45,400 --> 01:32:49,280 -Twitter and there were all these bubbles inside Twitter that were purely there - -1312 -01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:53,200 -when it was not because of a spacecon constraint it was only because of a - -1313 -01:32:53,200 --> 01:32:57,640 -kind of intellectual conversational constraint it's just like the your - -1314 -01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:01,200 -social graph basically and and that the topics would naturally clump you had - -1315 -01:33:01,200 --> 01:33:04,800 -like fintech Twitter I mean it was the same kind of anti-entriism thing where - -1316 -01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:09,080 -like we'd speak in memes and stuff yeah exactly it's like almost you almost - -1317 -01:33:09,080 --> 01:33:13,080 -purposefully I mean like Pierre is like the Pierre Richard is like the person who - -1318 -01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:16,680 -kind of helped me understand this where it's like no the the echo chamber is - -1319 -01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:20,720 -good I like I cultivate an echo chamber absolutely and like that's that is one - -1320 -01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:23,400 -thing that I think well that allowed Bitcoin Twitter to become sort of an - -1321 -01:33:23,400 --> 01:33:26,320 -interesting place and I would say it kind of produced an Oscar in some sense - -1322 -01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:31,000 -right you know Bittstein's talk of how to mean Bitcoin to the yeah I was in the - -1323 -01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:34,840 -room yeah I was the next talk actually so I didn't enjoy it at all because I - -1324 -01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:40,640 -hadn't really prepared my slides no one remembers my talk of course everyone - -1325 -01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:45,440 -remembers me sitting in the corner trying to get my slides right no but it - -1326 -01:33:45,440 --> 01:33:49,880 -but but but they they identified this earlier than anyone else and I think on - -1327 -01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:53,560 -the nostro side we have the same effect now it's just like one big bubble more - -1328 -01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:56,400 -or less I mean there's other bubbles on us there's like the art people yeah - -1329 -01:33:56,400 --> 01:33:59,320 -there's like the jungle people there's like the farmer people the jungle - -1330 -01:33:59,320 --> 01:34:02,520 -people are like the one of the things that I can't understand if that's just - -1331 -01:34:02,520 --> 01:34:09,060 -purely primal and Jack they were they were there before the skeptic the - -1332 -01:34:09,060 --> 01:34:14,760 -skeptic in me thinks it's a paid no but it's I think I know why all of this is - -1333 -01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:17,800 -kind of happening in some sense or at least my explanation for it is like - -1334 -01:34:17,800 --> 01:34:22,000 -Bitcoin Bitcoin monetized and expanded on the on the fringes on the edges no - -1335 -01:34:22,000 --> 01:34:25,280 -it's like you had to be crazy to be an early Bitcoin and like kind of you had - -1336 -01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:30,200 -to either live through hyperinflation or be an Austrian or be debunked and yeah - -1337 -01:34:30,200 --> 01:34:34,240 -those kind of things like very edges of society multiple edges but still very - -1338 -01:34:34,240 --> 01:34:37,520 -very edge of society and I think on the nostro side it's similar now that's why - -1339 -01:34:37,520 --> 01:34:41,360 -we have we have the crazy you know like health people that think that blue light - -1340 -01:34:41,360 --> 01:34:44,760 -is so toxic that you should never ever see what's anything blue like running - -1341 -01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:48,160 -around with red sunglasses at all times and and it's like that's very fringe - -1342 -01:34:48,160 --> 01:34:51,920 -kind of stuff and that's you know I'm not gonna mention absolutely all the - -1343 -01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:55,760 -fringes because it's like too out there but all the out there people are there - -1344 -01:34:55,760 --> 01:34:59,120 -and it's like just living in the jungle going barefoot rising with the Sun - -1345 -01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:02,440 -going to sleep with the Sun never touching any processed food ever that's - -1346 -01:35:02,440 --> 01:35:05,920 -kind of fringe in our today's society yeah and so I think they are - -1347 -01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:09,800 -naturally attracted to noster and it's also what about nos if you think - -1348 -01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:13,520 -attracts them I have an answer for this why what is the what is the what is the - -1349 -01:35:13,520 --> 01:35:18,800 -shared like would you agree that there's some shared yeah I think because it's - -1350 -01:35:18,800 --> 01:35:23,320 -raw and it's true and it requires some work yeah it's it's and I want I wanted - -1351 -01:35:23,320 --> 01:35:26,240 -to come back to that the the realness and people really crave realness and - -1352 -01:35:26,240 --> 01:35:31,760 -noster and Bitcoin as well it's very real it's like it's you can you can feel - -1353 -01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:36,160 -kind of that it's not manipulated by an algorithm it's not manipulated by a big - -1354 -01:35:36,160 --> 01:35:41,320 -tech thing or by ads or by influencers or by this and no one no one no one tries - -1355 -01:35:41,320 --> 01:35:45,560 -to sell you something everyone's engagement in this is probably at the - -1356 -01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:52,200 -pure loss of absolutely yeah I spent trying to develop I'm not I could be - -1357 -01:35:52,200 --> 01:35:57,520 -making money selling AI to but not only that I never I never spent money on - -1358 -01:35:57,520 --> 01:36:01,960 -software ever in my life like I always hated that thought yeah I'm spending - -1359 -01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:06,280 -so much money on noster right now yeah paid relays yeah running my own servers - -1360 -01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:10,020 -paid file hosting I started doing this funny I had it like I was using the - -1361 -01:36:10,020 --> 01:36:13,340 -primal web plan because again I'm not a party so I can use like two three tools - -1362 -01:36:13,340 --> 01:36:18,660 -and this fucking thing wouldn't allow me to upload an mp4 interesting yeah yeah - -1363 -01:36:18,660 --> 01:36:23,940 -in the opposite can right I think I don't know but yes you have an iPhone so it's - -1364 -01:36:23,940 --> 01:36:30,220 -almost impossible to get a fucking mp4 on my phone literally almost that - -1365 -01:36:30,220 --> 01:36:35,500 -camera roll yeah I know yeah it's almost impossible and I was struggling for a - -1366 -01:36:35,580 --> 01:36:40,060 -long time and finally I I was like what's that like it's not noster dot build or - -1367 -01:36:40,060 --> 01:36:42,820 -something yeah so I pulled up that I knew that this could do this and it's like - -1368 -01:36:42,820 --> 01:36:47,180 -what is it like a hundred dollars a year I paid a hundred dollars a year I - -1369 -01:36:47,180 --> 01:36:53,780 -had a hundred dollars up on an mp4 of Terry Davis typing into the CIA website - -1370 -01:36:53,780 --> 01:36:58,700 -that he's gonna kill them let's go - -1371 -01:36:58,700 --> 01:37:02,900 -like you're all gonna this is King Terry you're all gonna die the hand of God - -1372 -01:37:02,900 --> 01:37:06,860 -you you are the fringe that no stir is attractive yeah I paid a hundred I - -1373 -01:37:06,860 --> 01:37:11,700 -paid a hundred dollars that's by the way that's the reason why I why I switched - -1374 -01:37:11,700 --> 01:37:14,900 -away from the iPhone like 10 years ago so because I just wanted to drag and - -1375 -01:37:14,900 --> 01:37:18,660 -drop an mp3 file on my phone it was impossible it's so literally impossible - -1376 -01:37:18,660 --> 01:37:22,860 -so I gave up and switch and so funny because that was the entire premise the - -1377 -01:37:22,860 --> 01:37:26,380 -whole thing in the beginning this is a drag and drop mp3 experience now it's - -1378 -01:37:26,380 --> 01:37:30,820 -like you can't even do it again you can't you know you own nothing yeah I know I'm - -1379 -01:37:30,820 --> 01:37:34,900 -gonna get a graphing phone and try like every time Vitor and that final guy on - -1380 -01:37:34,900 --> 01:37:40,300 -roster he's one of my favorite followers the graphing dove yeah whenever they - -1381 -01:37:40,300 --> 01:37:44,500 -talk about graphing it is like that is actually pretty interesting yeah I mean - -1382 -01:37:44,500 --> 01:37:49,380 -I run graphing on all my phones yeah yeah it is it is pretty interesting yeah so - -1383 -01:37:49,380 --> 01:37:52,460 -I'm gonna definitely you know when I get back home I'm gonna buy one of those - -1384 -01:37:52,460 --> 01:37:56,300 -yeah but it is you're the same vein you're saying you're not a power user so I'm - -1385 -01:37:56,300 --> 01:37:59,340 -not sure how much fun you're gonna have because it is a power user kind of - -1386 -01:37:59,340 --> 01:38:02,700 -thing you will have to think of with it yeah we'll have to spend a lot of - -1387 -01:38:02,700 --> 01:38:05,740 -I mean at the same time it's like I did just give up cursor which everything - -1388 -01:38:05,740 --> 01:38:09,420 -works to try to do everything on the manline neo van and like I spent - -1389 -01:38:09,420 --> 01:38:12,700 -little like this week like we got to go do demos in a couple hours and I have - -1390 -01:38:12,700 --> 01:38:16,220 -like nothing like I've been all week I've been like last Tuesday I was about - -1391 -01:38:16,220 --> 01:38:20,620 -ready to start making a phone call app like I have the whole setup I have the - -1392 -01:38:20,620 --> 01:38:26,580 -whole all the prompts ready to build a like literally like an encrypted audio - -1393 -01:38:26,580 --> 01:38:30,900 -call and I have the prompts ready no no literally I have basically done this - -1394 -01:38:30,900 --> 01:38:35,220 -after this fucking chamber like I I spent a whole weekend going back and forth I - -1395 -01:38:35,220 --> 01:38:40,260 -have this really I have it's perfect like everything is ready like I figured out - -1396 -01:38:40,260 --> 01:38:44,060 -exactly the libraries to use how to do it in all rest like the only thing my UI - -1397 -01:38:44,060 --> 01:38:47,500 -needs is buttons like I don't you have to do any Kotlin to integrate with the - -1398 -01:38:47,500 --> 01:38:51,340 -audio system I don't have to I use one Google live you should use call me web - -1399 -01:38:51,340 --> 01:38:56,280 -RTC which is this massive Google it's like 11 components or something massive - -1400 -01:38:56,280 --> 01:39:00,440 -C++ code base impossible to cross like really hard to cross compile it's - -1401 -01:39:00,440 --> 01:39:04,280 -funny like web RTC is this web standard right so it's the idea to make a - -1402 -01:39:04,280 --> 01:39:07,400 -standard and different browsers implement it like Safari and Firefox - -1403 -01:39:07,400 --> 01:39:11,760 -did not have enough money to write this so you just fucking run Google C++ code - -1404 -01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:15,360 -in their browser so like blue sky works it's kind of insane like it's kind of - -1405 -01:39:15,360 --> 01:39:19,640 -insane like it's like learning about this and so I figured out it's one company - -1406 -01:39:19,640 --> 01:39:22,560 -who made the standard one company that had enough money to implement it at - -1407 -01:39:22,560 --> 01:39:26,360 -one one it's just a talk about it so my thing is like I'm still going to use - -1408 -01:39:26,360 --> 01:39:29,680 -the audio processing that's one thing that they that is really good is they - -1409 -01:39:29,680 --> 01:39:32,920 -have this you know like noise cancellation library where like you can - -1410 -01:39:32,920 --> 01:39:36,040 -make the calls sound really crisp so that's the one thing I'm going to use and - -1411 -01:39:36,040 --> 01:39:40,920 -everything else it's it's much simpler things and it's using the same underlying - -1412 -01:39:40,920 --> 01:39:47,040 -library that Fediment just integrated for for to make it so you can do peer to - -1413 -01:39:47,040 --> 01:39:51,080 -peer connections with the guardians so the guardians don't need DNS names which - -1414 -01:39:51,120 --> 01:39:55,320 -is one of the worst things about Fediment is that you need to the guardians need - -1415 -01:39:55,320 --> 01:39:59,800 -to get DNS names and you know with one of the federations I forget which one - -1416 -01:39:59,800 --> 01:40:04,720 -it was you know they had XYZ things and the registrar banned them you know so I - -1417 -01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:07,520 -think they ended up you know being able to sort that whole thing out but it was - -1418 -01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:10,680 -really annoying and that's just because it was integrating with this dying web - -1419 -01:40:10,680 --> 01:40:15,080 -2.0 infrastructure that is that it's kind of dying and it's one of the - -1420 -01:40:15,080 --> 01:40:19,320 -biggest issues of the web is DNS yeah I hope that Noster like I hope that we - -1421 -01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:22,280 -can just use switch to endpups basically yeah I don't care how it - -1422 -01:40:22,280 --> 01:40:25,520 -resolves underneath yeah I really don't care it's just like I think this is - -1423 -01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:31,240 -called IRO like that's it's a cool way to to I think there's some like DHT that - -1424 -01:40:31,240 --> 01:40:36,440 -you can use to connect you know nodes to so they gonna like establish it's - -1425 -01:40:36,440 --> 01:40:40,960 -very much a coal punch but it's not written in JavaScript which is nice and - -1426 -01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:47,520 -and it doesn't have to have its own runtime and it yeah so that is and so - -1427 -01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:51,280 -like that I think the Jeff posted the other day this like new social network - -1428 -01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:56,960 -yeah yeah build by one guy yeah that's the the guy who did I'm sure did most of - -1429 -01:40:56,960 --> 01:41:00,920 -the stuff for Fetteman DVC is an unbelievably good programmer you know - -1430 -01:41:00,920 --> 01:41:04,600 -he's just like one of these like rust purists yeah he's just like Noster - -1431 -01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:09,120 -sucks cuz that's Jason right like he hates the part that I think is the killer - -1432 -01:41:09,120 --> 01:41:12,760 -app that you can get to and I go from idea to implementation in five minutes - -1433 -01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:15,960 -that's the party doesn't like yeah because he's like this unbelievably good - -1434 -01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:19,600 -programmer yeah but but that's also it's optimizing for the wrong thing because - -1435 -01:41:19,600 --> 01:41:23,040 -his stuff is also like purely peer-to-peer yeah that's like extremely misguided I - -1436 -01:41:23,040 --> 01:41:27,320 -think it was a deep inside by fear Jeff to actually use relays yeah use them as - -1437 -01:41:27,320 --> 01:41:31,080 -dumb servers because my phone is offline most of the time so peer-to-peer stuff - -1438 -01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:34,880 -just if you try running peer-to-peer stuff on your phone and like 95% of - -1439 -01:41:34,880 --> 01:41:38,000 -people are on your phone it doesn't work but the cool thing for like an audio - -1440 -01:41:38,000 --> 01:41:41,600 -call is that it can be like I think it can be better because you can - -1441 -01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:45,280 -establish a peer-to-peer absolutely different push notifications different - -1442 -01:41:45,280 --> 01:41:49,160 -use case if you're actually calling you're actually using your device that his - -1443 -01:41:49,160 --> 01:41:52,920 -rostra thing and then the Fetteman thing kind of opened my eyes to this new - -1444 -01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:56,480 -new library and I'm like yeah that would be good for making a phone like just to - -1445 -01:41:56,480 --> 01:42:01,400 -have fun not to doesn't have a phone yeah that's one of the like this Unix - -1446 -01:42:01,400 --> 01:42:04,640 -tools is like I think about like how could I you know how could you have a - -1447 -01:42:04,640 --> 01:42:07,720 -phone that just replaced is all like why doesn't there a camera but that show - -1448 -01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:11,560 -but that also shows you what noster already is noster is like the global - -1449 -01:42:11,560 --> 01:42:14,840 -address book that's the one first thing in the first chord actually you build - -1450 -01:42:14,840 --> 01:42:23,160 -into the the mutiny guys build the social money sending into the Fetteman - -1451 -01:42:23,160 --> 01:42:27,000 -stuff that they had and so it's like you want to I want to send money to Justin - -1452 -01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:31,800 -yeah I want to call Justin yeah I want to send an encrypted DM to Justin I want - -1453 -01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:35,280 -to ask a question and tag Justin like I only like one way I think about - -1454 -01:42:35,280 --> 01:42:38,720 -noster is it's like it's like you look at your phone and it's like to me - -1455 -01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:42,960 -noster is in a sense it's like the desktop itself and like the contact - -1456 -01:42:42,960 --> 01:42:46,760 -book that that's that's why that's so far and it's growing more and more of - -1457 -01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:49,880 -it's populating more and more of these and that's why that's why my white - -1458 -01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:54,000 -noise is like the messaging thing right like it's good like you have this empty - -1459 -01:42:54,000 --> 01:42:58,280 -desktop yeah and you have the fucking contact book which is I like an - -1460 -01:42:58,280 --> 01:43:02,760 -abstraction layer in the 2010 era of like Silicon Valley technology like that - -1461 -01:43:02,760 --> 01:43:06,960 -was the one thing they were just they would just fight to try to get into your - -1462 -01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:11,040 -contacts right like that's what every Facebook and Snapchat is like the one - -1463 -01:43:11,040 --> 01:43:14,120 -thing they needed from you is access your address book because then they could - -1464 -01:43:14,120 --> 01:43:17,840 -bootstrap their social network without that they couldn't figure out who you - -1465 -01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:21,120 -know in order to give you a good experience yeah but it's like the - -1466 -01:43:21,120 --> 01:43:26,240 -noster developer experience the contact book comes stock yeah which is pretty - -1467 -01:43:26,240 --> 01:43:29,400 -important and I think that's exactly right and it's like it's like it's like - -1468 -01:43:29,480 --> 01:43:33,320 -one abstraction layer higher in some sense it's it's it's very very much like - -1469 -01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:36,960 -what I just said it's like I just want to talk to an end pop I don't care what - -1470 -01:43:36,960 --> 01:43:40,480 -is used underneath and how it resolves whether it's to war or I don't I really - -1471 -01:43:40,480 --> 01:43:44,320 -don't care yeah and and so that's one abstraction layer the other abstraction - -1472 -01:43:44,320 --> 01:43:48,120 -layer is like I I don't care what client I use I don't care what DM client I use - -1473 -01:43:48,120 --> 01:43:52,520 -I don't care what what what I don't know what I used to edit my my profile - -1474 -01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:56,240 -metadata of those kind of things and and the way I see it expanding now that's - -1475 -01:43:56,240 --> 01:43:59,120 -why it's my dream flow I want to get a new phone I don't care what phone it is - -1476 -01:43:59,120 --> 01:44:02,920 -and I want to punch in my my my noster identity in whatever way let's say - -1477 -01:44:02,920 --> 01:44:06,200 -it's like 12 words I want to punch in the 12 words and everything is there yeah - -1478 -01:44:06,200 --> 01:44:10,640 -same for I mean I'm sure you have a sophisticated like dot file setup yeah - -1479 -01:44:10,640 --> 01:44:14,160 -and those kind of things yeah and if you change machines right farming most of - -1480 -01:44:14,160 --> 01:44:18,640 -the week yeah there you go there you go and so so wouldn't it be awesome if - -1481 -01:44:18,640 --> 01:44:22,120 -it's just like you you you everything is almost like a think client you know - -1482 -01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:25,280 -you go there you log in with your noster identity and it grabs all the - -1483 -01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:29,760 -right things it knows what what your dot file setup is it knows how you want - -1484 -01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:33,640 -your idea to have set up and so on and that's it and in that context it sets - -1485 -01:44:33,640 --> 01:44:36,360 -everything up for you yeah that's actually one of the things I was playing - -1486 -01:44:36,360 --> 01:44:40,320 -around with him that I want to that I did this because I made like a nix flick - -1487 -01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:45,760 -for for X X code oh I saw this idea where like if you want like I've been - -1488 -01:44:45,760 --> 01:44:50,200 -trying to make I'm calling it Rust multi-platform so it's like this like - -1489 -01:44:50,200 --> 01:44:53,640 -basically like how it's kind of like some of my learnings from when we built - -1490 -01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:57,960 -FETI this app you know it's a mobile app right like if I if I had to build a - -1491 -01:44:57,960 --> 01:45:01,000 -similar kind of mobile app again how would I want to do things differently - -1492 -01:45:01,000 --> 01:45:05,160 -right and so like one thing that I would like to do differently and not not - -1493 -01:45:05,160 --> 01:45:08,360 -saying like FETI's bad or anything right it's like it's it's any kind of - -1494 -01:45:08,360 --> 01:45:11,640 -project you learn stuff from it right and you think like what would you do next - -1495 -01:45:11,640 --> 01:45:17,480 -time and so like you know we had a lot of logic in like what I want to do like - -1496 -01:45:17,480 --> 01:45:20,800 -there's this big kind of quest in development and I don't think it's - -1497 -01:45:20,800 --> 01:45:24,560 -solvable like there's no solution but there are trade-offs right right so - -1498 -01:45:24,560 --> 01:45:31,660 -there's not like what do you look at this yeah yeah yeah yeah this is not a paid - -1499 -01:45:31,660 --> 01:45:37,440 -post it's not a paid every time but you know there's no solution so it's - -1500 -01:45:37,440 --> 01:45:41,680 -it's not like a thing where you're gonna solve cross-platform development but I - -1501 -01:45:41,680 --> 01:45:45,680 -think there's other trade-offs that aren't explored so like one thing people - -1502 -01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:50,080 -do for a mobile app is and the thing you can do base the base thing is you'd - -1503 -01:45:50,080 --> 01:45:53,000 -write two different apps right one right one for iOS one for Android and - -1504 -01:45:53,000 --> 01:45:57,560 -they're completely separate this is what for example primal does right but in a - -1505 -01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:00,560 -sense they offload a lot of the their solution is actually to do it on a - -1506 -01:46:00,560 --> 01:46:03,800 -server right they have this caching server that actually has like a lot of - -1507 -01:46:03,800 --> 01:46:10,400 -their actual business logic is in a is in postgres functions yeah to populate a - -1508 -01:46:10,400 --> 01:46:14,320 -cache ahead of time for what your client will see so their cross-platform - -1509 -01:46:14,320 --> 01:46:16,880 -development is literally postgres functions which I think technically is - -1510 -01:46:16,920 --> 01:46:21,120 -really cool novel trade-off right like that's I think that's that's kind of - -1511 -01:46:21,120 --> 01:46:25,600 -interesting like on another one but you know the actual app development is they - -1512 -01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:29,560 -have two separate apps which is why sometimes the iOS app is significantly - -1513 -01:46:29,560 --> 01:46:32,520 -worse in the Android device versa right like they don't have the same - -1514 -01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:35,240 -experience and they have one for web so they have three different apps right so - -1515 -01:46:35,240 --> 01:46:39,160 -you see how that was slowed on velocity a lot right where it's like this week - -1516 -01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:42,760 -we're implementing some feature we're just playing blossom okay all the devs - -1517 -01:46:42,760 --> 01:46:46,280 -go and do the same thing in different languages yeah that's kind of what they - -1518 -01:46:46,320 --> 01:46:49,760 -have to do right so in a perfect world you would have to do less of that you - -1519 -01:46:49,760 --> 01:46:53,920 -know and so another option is like react native so there's this big thing like - -1520 -01:46:53,920 --> 01:46:57,080 -15 years ago or Facebook is like well what if you could just write it all on - -1521 -01:46:57,080 --> 01:47:00,880 -JavaScript it's kind of like the noster of social networks in a sense like what - -1522 -01:47:00,880 --> 01:47:05,120 -if all these web devs can like make mobile apps wouldn't that be cool but it - -1523 -01:47:05,120 --> 01:47:08,440 -came out somewhat of a cost is like JavaScript's not always the best - -1524 -01:47:08,440 --> 01:47:14,280 -language and now you have to have a whole runtime you kind of embed a browser at - -1525 -01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:18,560 -least the JavaScript part of a browser well and the HTML and the CSS part of - -1526 -01:47:18,560 --> 01:47:22,680 -a browser into your mobile app so you have this huge kind of runtime and - -1527 -01:47:22,680 --> 01:47:27,440 -complexity cost in order to get this is also it always was a real cost and - -1528 -01:47:27,440 --> 01:47:32,120 -that's why the that's always felt sluggish yeah you could you can't feel - -1529 -01:47:32,120 --> 01:47:35,840 -the difference between the experience of react native in as a because I've built - -1530 -01:47:35,840 --> 01:47:40,320 -a few react native projects in the past like you know Fedi was one and I've - -1531 -01:47:40,320 --> 01:47:43,440 -done a couple other ones and the experience is like you launch quickly - -1532 -01:47:43,440 --> 01:47:46,640 -like you get off to a good start it's like a projectile though right yeah you - -1533 -01:47:46,640 --> 01:47:52,280 -launch quickly and over time your you sort your velocity your vertical - -1534 -01:47:52,280 --> 01:47:56,920 -velocity decreases right also what I experienced is like the closer you have - -1535 -01:47:56,920 --> 01:48:00,600 -to be to the hardware itself basically yeah the harder stuff gets and it's - -1536 -01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:05,040 -just like you'll you'll end up writing native modules anyway yeah yeah now - -1537 -01:48:05,040 --> 01:48:08,880 -you have this whole abstraction layer that you're not even using anymore so - -1538 -01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:11,840 -like that's one solution and flutter is kind of the same thing with some - -1539 -01:48:11,840 --> 01:48:15,800 -technical details but from Google and there's some pros and cons - -1540 -01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:20,320 -had a great point by the way just a day be there from amethyst discussing like - -1541 -01:48:20,320 --> 01:48:23,960 -what it means to build something in a native way what does it mean to be - -1542 -01:48:23,960 --> 01:48:27,560 -native yeah and I think that was excellent because I didn't see that because - -1543 -01:48:27,560 --> 01:48:31,880 -it's basically I think it's basically a dig on will be like trying to write - -1544 -01:48:31,880 --> 01:48:35,320 -everything as low-level as you can and writing its own like gaming rendering - -1545 -01:48:35,320 --> 01:48:39,360 -engine for an Oscar client like rewriting the gift rendering and absolutely - -1546 -01:48:39,360 --> 01:48:41,720 -everything you have to rewrite everything from scratch and that's kind - -1547 -01:48:41,720 --> 01:48:45,640 -of like like what it means when we say native is like I want my iOS up to feel - -1548 -01:48:45,640 --> 01:48:48,840 -like an iOS app yeah my Android app to feel like an Android app yeah here's - -1549 -01:48:48,840 --> 01:48:52,600 -the thing and I think that's why it was such an excellent word but it but he - -1550 -01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:56,160 -didn't it didn't expand on it properly so so so I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna - -1551 -01:48:56,160 --> 01:49:00,240 -try because the thing is like you're so close to the metal and you're trying to - -1552 -01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:03,440 -achieve one thing in most cases like he wants to build the most of a rotate he - -1553 -01:49:03,440 --> 01:49:08,200 -wants to rotate a cube in the most in the most performant way possible which is - -1554 -01:49:08,200 --> 01:49:12,200 -fair it's like you know like you're like a 300 FPS Q yeah it's perfectly - -1555 -01:49:12,200 --> 01:49:17,340 -programmer I will never be yeah same for me and I have no I have no - -1556 -01:49:17,340 --> 01:49:20,760 -interest in stopping him and the stuff he's building out with the with the LLM - -1557 -01:49:20,760 --> 01:49:24,800 -stuff and something it's amazing like I that if you if you if you want to stop - -1558 -01:49:24,800 --> 01:49:27,760 -someone like will you retard it like just let's just let's an example of that - -1559 -01:49:27,760 --> 01:49:31,720 -divergent evolution though right yeah it is good that he's doing that he should - -1560 -01:49:31,720 --> 01:49:35,080 -do all the thing but but my point about that the native apps is like does your - -1561 -01:49:35,080 --> 01:49:39,000 -app work with a screen reader for playing people yeah does it work on like - -1562 -01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:43,800 -you know like the Android fridge yeah you know that someone is using and - -1563 -01:49:43,800 --> 01:49:47,760 -those kind of things yeah and it's like you have no idea how much heavy lifting - -1564 -01:49:47,760 --> 01:49:52,600 -that does the animation as you scroll between tabs yeah feel like the other - -1565 -01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:55,600 -like that's exactly that's where the actual native feel all the gestures - -1566 -01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:59,320 -gestures work like like this is like like flutter I can oftentimes tele flutter - -1567 -01:49:59,320 --> 01:50:02,440 -app because they they do like with the difference between react native and - -1568 -01:50:02,440 --> 01:50:05,920 -flutter is react native has this runtime to execute code and then it you - -1569 -01:50:05,920 --> 01:50:11,080 -produce basic HTML and the the system itself maps your HTML to native - -1570 -01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:14,400 -components so it is able to feel a little more native because it's actually using - -1571 -01:50:14,400 --> 01:50:18,600 -like native scrolls yeah and then what flutter does is they just have a canvas - -1572 -01:50:18,600 --> 01:50:22,000 -that they just draw pixels to exactly and so they're able to they have more - -1573 -01:50:22,000 --> 01:50:25,120 -control in a sense but it's also not native components so you kind of everyone - -1574 -01:50:25,120 --> 01:50:28,560 -so you kind of feel like that doesn't feel like Android but and you don't even - -1575 -01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:31,720 -might not notice it but it like that doesn't feel native if you use this - -1576 -01:50:31,720 --> 01:50:34,920 -screen reader because you're blind you really know this because it stops - -1577 -01:50:34,920 --> 01:50:38,720 -working yeah if you use it in a different language kind of works for flutter is - -1578 -01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:43,120 -that what I mean what do you think their dev cost is on a yearly basis to - -1579 -01:50:43,120 --> 01:50:46,680 -produce this hundreds of millions of dollars I would guess right like I saw - -1580 -01:50:46,680 --> 01:50:51,120 -some crazy thing this this really interesting guy what's his name he's - -1581 -01:50:51,120 --> 01:50:57,320 -making Ladybird this new browser yeah I thought the movie no no no really - -1582 -01:50:57,320 --> 01:51:01,800 -interesting guy he serenity what's his name I don't know yeah see he he was - -1583 -01:51:01,800 --> 01:51:05,400 -like an addict and he was doing he's a browser engineer who got addicted to - -1584 -01:51:05,400 --> 01:51:08,560 -drugs he's very public about it and he's like he's doing the 12 steps and he's - -1585 -01:51:08,560 --> 01:51:12,000 -like okay in order to stop doing drugs I'm gonna write an operating system right - -1586 -01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:16,760 -just like the temple OS guy I don't know it's it's very similar he's one he's - -1587 -01:51:16,760 --> 01:51:19,640 -very admirable people like he's one of the best streamers on YouTube I wish I - -1588 -01:51:19,640 --> 01:51:24,120 -could remember his name I see his face but I can't remember his name and he - -1589 -01:51:24,120 --> 01:51:28,560 -started streaming it and so it's like he started with nothing and started make - -1590 -01:51:28,560 --> 01:51:31,780 -it is I his idea was like the two best things in operating system are the - -1591 -01:51:31,780 --> 01:51:37,480 -Unix command line in 90s you'll like this 90s Windows applications because it had - -1592 -01:51:37,480 --> 01:51:43,080 -like a very true well it's very like the windows 95 - -1593 -01:51:43,080 --> 01:51:47,960 -extra useful software actually and it was very texture allow me to go on this - -1594 -01:51:47,960 --> 01:51:52,720 -tangent because that's when they built the UI things they figured out so many - -1595 -01:51:52,720 --> 01:51:55,640 -things how are you quick for for most okay I'll tell you some things that - -1596 -01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:59,800 -stopped working while I while while computer industry evolved we broke so - -1597 -01:51:59,800 --> 01:52:03,400 -many things okay so for example the scrollbars yeah you would they were - -1598 -01:52:03,400 --> 01:52:05,800 -always visible you would could always see at the glance where you were yeah - -1599 -01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:09,480 -we are hiding them okay the the little X a little different on every app yeah - -1600 -01:52:09,480 --> 01:52:13,360 -fire boxes different from chrome the little X not like like what is that they - -1601 -01:52:13,360 --> 01:52:17,200 -did all these studies they put so much thought into all this stuff like the - -1602 -01:52:17,200 --> 01:52:20,920 -Windows 95 UI the general like all this UI stuff that came out of you know like - -1603 -01:52:20,920 --> 01:52:23,720 -fucking Bell Labs and all those kind of things also how the mouse works all - -1604 -01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:26,520 -those kind of things they put so much thought into it so so they figured out - -1605 -01:52:26,520 --> 01:52:30,800 -what are there what are the five positions that the user can access most - -1606 -01:52:30,800 --> 01:52:35,600 -quickly with a mouse yeah and it's like top left corner top right corner bottom - -1607 -01:52:35,600 --> 01:52:38,800 -left corner bottom right corner because you can throw your mouse in that - -1608 -01:52:38,800 --> 01:52:42,760 -direction you don't have to point you can just throw and click yeah that's why - -1609 -01:52:42,760 --> 01:52:46,360 -when a window is maximized the close button is in the top right corner you - -1610 -01:52:46,360 --> 01:52:50,680 -can throw it click it and the window is closed in modern operating systems the - -1611 -01:52:50,680 --> 01:52:56,520 -button is round at the hit the hit box doesn't expand to the top right pixel - -1612 -01:52:56,520 --> 01:53:00,920 -yeah and so you actually can't do that anymore so it's completely besides the - -1613 -01:53:00,920 --> 01:53:05,560 -point and the most important pixel in terms of mouse that you have is where - -1614 -01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:10,840 -the mouse cursor is at right now so if dialogue pops up it should pop up below - -1615 -01:53:10,840 --> 01:53:14,640 -the mouse and the mouse should be on the okay button or whatever those kind of - -1616 -01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:18,160 -things the old UI systems did this yeah they did this perfectly and they also - -1617 -01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:21,480 -had hotkeys for everything for example where it's just like you know like a - -1618 -01:53:21,480 --> 01:53:25,280 -control F or alt F or whatever it was his file and every you it had this - -1619 -01:53:25,280 --> 01:53:29,320 -coverability for hotkeys where it in the menus it showed you the the hotkeys - -1620 -01:53:29,320 --> 01:53:33,760 -are underlined yeah and it would just work and you could in you could get so - -1621 -01:53:33,760 --> 01:53:37,600 -good and so quick at using those interfaces and we destroyed all of that - -1622 -01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:41,320 -just because we wanted to have it like the designers came in and broke it yeah - -1623 -01:53:41,320 --> 01:53:45,720 -yeah yeah yeah no it's like yeah the designer displaced the power users yeah - -1624 -01:53:45,720 --> 01:53:49,800 -and it's because we literally had like form follows function and and and now - -1625 -01:53:49,800 --> 01:53:52,400 -we really don't have the name I want to look up this guy's name just because I - -1626 -01:53:52,400 --> 01:53:58,480 -think the listeners might actually like this but yeah so he started he - -1627 -01:53:58,480 --> 01:54:04,160 -started making uh it's his name he started making this browser or this - -1628 -01:54:04,160 --> 01:54:08,680 -operating system Andreas Kling yeah he's great YouTube so so for example one of - -1629 -01:54:08,680 --> 01:54:12,840 -his YouTube best YouTube videos he's like we don't have a browser and I don't - -1630 -01:54:12,840 --> 01:54:16,200 -want to cross-compile like I don't really maybe he did port like Chrome or - -1631 -01:54:16,200 --> 01:54:19,760 -some Firefox or something he's like okay we ported it but like it doesn't fit in - -1632 -01:54:19,760 --> 01:54:23,000 -I don't like it we need our own so he that's what he does he just like literally - -1633 -01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:26,800 -rewrites everything is this operating system has zero dependencies zero it's - -1634 -01:54:26,800 --> 01:54:30,480 -like tempo is yeah I know it's really like tempo less right and it has zero - -1635 -01:54:30,480 --> 01:54:35,200 -dependencies is he as you say insane that's the tempo less guy in some ways more - -1636 -01:54:35,200 --> 01:54:40,720 -in some ways less right like you know I think he's more insane because he - -1637 -01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:43,480 -actually is trying to do this whereas I don't think Terry Davis was actually - -1638 -01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:46,200 -trying to get people to use this operating system this guy to some extent - -1639 -01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:50,080 -is and now but so you did he this great stream where he's like we need a browser - -1640 -01:54:50,080 --> 01:54:54,720 -so let's see how do you tokenize JavaScript or I think he had a browser he - -1641 -01:54:54,720 --> 01:54:58,440 -had an HTML browser and then maybe they had a CSS and I was like okay we can't - -1642 -01:54:58,440 --> 01:55:02,560 -do anything dynamic in our a browser he was like a 1995 browser he's like well - -1643 -01:55:02,560 --> 01:55:06,280 -we need JavaScript so he he started he like literally good like Google's - -1644 -01:55:06,760 --> 01:55:10,760 -tokenize JavaScript and he in any in any Google's like hello world - -1645 -01:55:10,760 --> 01:55:16,320 -JavaScript and he pays the hello world code into the tokenizer and he's like - -1646 -01:55:16,320 --> 01:55:20,120 -okay so here's the token so let's go into C++ and let's make a struct and he - -1647 -01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:24,280 -starts like copying over the struct and like names the you know fun make like - -1648 -01:55:24,280 --> 01:55:28,960 -let's make a token for function let's make a token for closure like for the - -1649 -01:55:28,960 --> 01:55:34,200 -name state right and so he slowly so you can see how he started by a hello world - -1650 -01:55:34,280 --> 01:55:39,320 -function tokenizing hello world function which any dev can do and then they just - -1651 -01:55:39,320 --> 01:55:42,720 -iterated that on a couple years and now it's ladybird browser which they have - -1652 -01:55:42,720 --> 01:55:46,080 -taken out of the browser project and now they're actually trying to make this - -1653 -01:55:46,080 --> 01:55:50,240 -to be a new browser implementation and so now they did take on dependencies they - -1654 -01:55:50,240 --> 01:55:54,000 -use curl for networking they have a couple dependencies like that maybe libGL - -1655 -01:55:54,000 --> 01:55:57,480 -for certain things and they're trying either they have like a one or two - -1656 -01:55:57,480 --> 01:56:01,680 -million dollar budget and this is why I thought of this guess what Google Chrome's - -1657 -01:56:01,680 --> 01:56:06,680 -budget is hundreds two or three billion dollars per year and there these guys - -1658 -01:56:06,680 --> 01:56:09,280 -are doing it like one or two million dollars and they're doing a from scratch - -1659 -01:56:09,280 --> 01:56:12,120 -browser implementation and the thing that's so inspiring about is he has one - -1660 -01:56:12,120 --> 01:56:17,000 -talk but he's like you know most people overestimate what they can do or what - -1661 -01:56:17,000 --> 01:56:20,280 -do you say yeah it's the no no no it that was like this that's a different one - -1662 -01:56:20,280 --> 01:56:25,560 -he's like he's like he's like people kind of overestimate or underestimate what - -1663 -01:56:25,560 --> 01:56:29,280 -you can do if you just if you kind of like you can't remember exactly is you - -1664 -01:56:29,280 --> 01:56:33,440 -kind of just keep going if you just keep going like like people always say - -1665 -01:56:33,440 --> 01:56:37,200 -you can't build a browser like that was kind of tribal wisdom programming and - -1666 -01:56:37,200 --> 01:56:41,160 -he's like well watch me I'm just gonna start from tokenizing JavaScript and now - -1667 -01:56:41,160 --> 01:56:44,040 -they're like pretty close to have like they can render a lot of websites they - -1668 -01:56:44,040 --> 01:56:47,000 -can kind of render discord they can kind of render Twitter wow like they're - -1669 -01:56:47,000 --> 01:56:51,200 -getting pretty close and it's it's kind of an inspirational project of how how - -1670 -01:56:51,200 --> 01:56:57,920 -far a small team can go yeah if they just really try hard yeah yeah sure sure I - -1671 -01:56:57,920 --> 01:57:03,400 -mean let's yeah that's impressive how many people are are on the team five or - -1672 -01:57:03,400 --> 01:57:06,320 -something I mean it's a big community but like there's a few people that work - -1673 -01:57:06,320 --> 01:57:11,480 -on full-time yeah and it's you know I mean it's it's just this massive yeah - -1674 -01:57:11,480 --> 01:57:16,280 -I mean you truly do kind of see though how I mean it is still possible to build - -1675 -01:57:16,280 --> 01:57:19,680 -a browser like they're doing it but it's like man we kind of went overboard - -1676 -01:57:19,680 --> 01:57:24,360 -with you know sure it's in a sense like the web got re-architected yeah this is - -1677 -01:57:24,360 --> 01:57:28,120 -by the WebRTC examples a good example it's like in a sense the web was kind of - -1678 -01:57:28,120 --> 01:57:32,520 -re-architected so that it could be a wild garden yeah as soon as you add WebRTC - -1679 -01:57:32,520 --> 01:57:39,120 -to the the whatever IETF spec for the web it is no longer something that even - -1680 -01:57:39,120 --> 01:57:43,200 -even Apple can participate in as an equal member right because for WebKit - -1681 -01:57:43,200 --> 01:57:47,200 -they just run the C++ code from Google they can't they it does not make sense - -1682 -01:57:47,200 --> 01:57:50,840 -for Google a multi-trillion dollar or Apple a multi-trillion dollar company to - -1683 -01:57:50,840 --> 01:57:55,000 -re-implement that in yeah so you can't you know like in a sense it's like wow - -1684 -01:57:55,000 --> 01:58:00,720 -that that's a it's a very insightful example but just think about it for a - -1685 -01:58:00,720 --> 01:58:04,160 -minute for a minute it's like the basically the most valuable company on - -1686 -01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:08,360 -earth yeah they have like infinite money for all intents and purposes and it - -1687 -01:58:08,360 --> 01:58:12,720 -doesn't make economic sense for them to re-implement it no yeah yeah and well in - -1688 -01:58:12,720 --> 01:58:18,040 -a sense too it's like this this this ethos of having independent browser - -1689 -01:58:18,080 --> 01:58:21,800 -vendors is kind of dying a little bit like they used to have Internet Explorer - -1690 -01:58:21,800 --> 01:58:25,560 -for all of its faults at least it was an implement independent implementation - -1691 -01:58:25,560 --> 01:58:31,800 -edge is a is chromium yeah right like it's not even even Microsoft Microsoft - -1692 -01:58:31,800 --> 01:58:35,360 -threw in the hat on having a browser implementation right so that's another - -1693 -01:58:35,360 --> 01:58:39,800 -way the more I think about not learn about noster because again I'm kind of - -1694 -01:58:39,800 --> 01:58:43,160 -a noob I mostly ignored it for the past couple days but one of the things that - -1695 -01:58:43,160 --> 01:58:49,760 -strikes me is how how the legacy well it's not it's not just like the walled - -1696 -01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:54,960 -gardens of the like fang companies that are yeah kind of maybe the technology in - -1697 -01:58:54,960 --> 01:58:58,960 -and of itself the the platform in itself is dying yeah right like it is dying - -1698 -01:58:58,960 --> 01:59:02,520 -yeah I mean these are examples of it dying yeah like it is it is it is - -1699 -01:59:02,520 --> 01:59:07,280 -atrophy and it's dying and it's and for multiple reasons I think in some sense - -1700 -01:59:07,280 --> 01:59:12,200 -just just like I also sometimes watch like various you know streamers and - -1701 -01:59:12,200 --> 01:59:16,240 -things and those kind of things this is not this is kind of one of the like we - -1702 -01:59:16,240 --> 01:59:19,840 -talked a couple months ago and you were talking about how like noster is the - -1703 -01:59:19,840 --> 01:59:24,200 -like kind of the new Internet yeah right and I had no fucking idea what you were - -1704 -01:59:24,200 --> 01:59:28,240 -talking about you thought I was crazy no no I mean I knew you're not crazy - -1705 -01:59:28,240 --> 01:59:31,960 -because I've known you for a long time but I did spend like a month or two kind - -1706 -01:59:31,960 --> 01:59:35,640 -of trying to think like what the fuck is he talking about because I know you're - -1707 -01:59:35,640 --> 01:59:39,560 -not crazy but I did not understand what you're talking about yeah and this is - -1708 -01:59:39,640 --> 01:59:42,880 -these are some of the things where I've been kind of like I think this this is - -1709 -01:59:42,880 --> 01:59:47,000 -kind of gives me the similar feeling yeah yeah it's I think it's our - -1710 -01:59:47,000 --> 01:59:50,800 -opportunity to go back to the drawing board and kind of kind of deeply - -1711 -01:59:50,800 --> 01:59:54,320 -think about why are we doing the things that we're doing doing currently on the - -1712 -01:59:54,320 --> 01:59:59,120 -web yeah and and would there be a better way yeah what if we would go back to - -1713 -01:59:59,120 --> 02:00:02,440 -ground zero and build it from scratch basically that's how I look at noster - -1714 -02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:07,080 -because in the end it's like lots of the web that we have now it is kind of it's - -1715 -02:00:07,080 --> 02:00:11,640 -very simple things done in a very very very very complicated way and I talked - -1716 -02:00:11,640 --> 02:00:16,200 -with Paul about this that's why I'm so excited about hyponode and the idea of - -1717 -02:00:16,200 --> 02:00:20,920 -it because it's like to render it to the things we need to do to the stuff you - -1718 -02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:25,520 -mentioned rendering discord rendering Twitter itself the things we need to do - -1719 -02:00:25,520 --> 02:00:30,400 -to render Twitter to render the Twitter feed in the browser it's unbelievable - -1720 -02:00:30,400 --> 02:00:33,000 -unbelievable like if you guys are if anyone listening is telling you should - -1721 -02:00:33,000 --> 02:00:36,520 -watch these Andreas kling talks or is streams where he does this it's like you - -1722 -02:00:36,520 --> 02:00:40,840 -understand like this guy is fucking brilliant and he spent years and these - -1723 -02:00:40,840 --> 02:00:45,360 -websites still barely render yeah it's like and and I'm going to compare it to - -1724 -02:00:45,360 --> 02:00:50,400 -noster where you can write like a client in any language and render it on like a - -1725 -02:00:50,400 --> 02:00:54,120 -terminal and you basically have the same effect yeah I just want to see short - -1726 -02:00:54,120 --> 02:00:57,560 -text notes from my friends yeah you know yeah it's like it's and and and that's - -1727 -02:00:57,560 --> 02:01:01,720 -that's that's true across the stack yeah I want to share an image I want to share - -1728 -02:01:01,920 --> 02:01:06,120 -this is this is a cool thing about what will is doing is that in a sense he's - -1729 -02:01:06,120 --> 02:01:10,880 -kind of working in the same area where this is like in a sense I think it's - -1730 -02:01:10,880 --> 02:01:15,120 -still like shouldn't be a fucking dumb well it's very half I think it's still - -1731 -02:01:15,120 --> 02:01:19,880 -very half bake still which is not a like a genius in my book yeah but it's like - -1732 -02:01:19,880 --> 02:01:24,440 -it is like a browser ish like kind of runtime yeah that he's making which is - -1733 -02:01:24,440 --> 02:01:27,520 -but but that's the thing about this is why I think that the inside from - -1734 -02:01:27,520 --> 02:01:31,480 -Peter was so great because it's like you have to find the balance of going - -1735 -02:01:31,480 --> 02:01:35,520 -back to the drawing board and redoing things and like not reinventing the wheel - -1736 -02:01:35,520 --> 02:01:40,360 -yeah yeah like you don't actually want to do everything from yeah let me get - -1737 -02:01:40,360 --> 02:01:43,240 -back to my rough multiply from idea so like I talked about some different like - -1738 -02:01:43,240 --> 02:01:46,280 -one thing is you just make a mobile make a different app on every platform so you - -1739 -02:01:46,280 --> 02:01:50,800 -have three code bases like primal right that's one way of doing it and then - -1740 -02:01:50,800 --> 02:01:53,800 -there's the React Native where you get one thing but then it often becomes - -1741 -02:01:53,800 --> 02:01:56,880 -kind of sluggish and it gets hard to use because it's this JavaScript language - -1742 -02:01:56,880 --> 02:02:00,880 -is not it's a shitty language kind of but you know they added TypeScript on - -1743 -02:02:00,880 --> 02:02:04,200 -top that which makes it significantly better at the cost of another - -1744 -02:02:04,200 --> 02:02:08,680 -abstraction layers now like JavaScript is a compilation target like in the - -1745 -02:02:08,680 --> 02:02:12,960 -sense that LLMs are turning React into TypeScript React into accomplished - -1746 -02:02:12,960 --> 02:02:16,200 -targets here you're getting more and more and more and more and more layers of - -1747 -02:02:16,200 --> 02:02:19,760 -complexity which is not good and this one of the things that's cool about what - -1748 -02:02:19,760 --> 02:02:24,240 -Will is doing is because like he is like he has like two layers of complexity - -1749 -02:02:24,240 --> 02:02:28,600 -yeah he has like pixels and he draws very close he draws them to the screen - -1750 -02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:32,240 -60 times a second right so in a sense that's a really cool thing about what - -1751 -02:02:32,240 --> 02:02:36,040 -he's doing is that like the the layers of complexity are he's like cut through - -1752 -02:02:36,040 --> 02:02:39,720 -many layers of complexity which is I think promising on a long-term - -1753 -02:02:39,720 --> 02:02:43,640 -time and so that is this is another approach you can do this is what like - -1754 -02:02:43,640 --> 02:02:47,080 -video this is probably how a YouTube app works right like when you're watching a - -1755 -02:02:47,080 --> 02:02:51,840 -video that is rendered they're probably there's C code in the app that is shared - -1756 -02:02:51,840 --> 02:02:57,000 -on the iOS and mobile and you you know the app itself just gets like a buffer - -1757 -02:02:57,000 --> 02:03:00,720 -60 times a second from C and just paints it to the screen yeah you know and so - -1758 -02:03:00,720 --> 02:03:04,080 -that's probably their cross-platform strategy there's another really - -1759 -02:03:04,080 --> 02:03:07,760 -interesting one that Facebook did for Messenger where they they had two they - -1760 -02:03:07,760 --> 02:03:11,760 -had basically primal has two totally separate apps they had like 1.5 million - -1761 -02:03:11,760 --> 02:03:16,120 -lines of code in each one just massive applications and it just became - -1762 -02:03:16,120 --> 02:03:19,440 -difficult to maintain and they these were using the old versions of mobile - -1763 -02:03:19,440 --> 02:03:22,800 -development like Objective-C and Java which have been supplanted by a new - -1764 -02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:26,520 -way of doing it was just remembered in brackets of yeah yeah yeah it's horrible - -1765 -02:03:26,520 --> 02:03:30,080 -and so what they did is they re rewrote their applications but they tried to put - -1766 -02:03:30,080 --> 02:03:35,240 -as much as possible into a shared C++ library where as much of the state of - -1767 -02:03:35,240 --> 02:03:38,840 -the applications possible is written in a sequel light and so the front end basically - -1768 -02:03:38,840 --> 02:03:42,640 -just looks for what page are we on in sequel light and just renders that so - -1769 -02:03:42,640 --> 02:03:47,080 -it's a little bit like what Will's doing where you know it just it just renders - -1770 -02:03:47,080 --> 02:03:52,200 -it from sequel light he wanted to have the most - -1771 -02:03:52,200 --> 02:03:55,240 -performed way possible so what he's doing what what Will's doing is - -1772 -02:03:55,240 --> 02:03:59,240 -actually very similar to how Facebook Messenger works one of the like top - -1773 -02:03:59,240 --> 02:04:04,600 -five most used apps in the world instead of NosterDB it uses sequel light I mean - -1774 -02:04:04,600 --> 02:04:07,320 -sequel light is better in some ways because it's like the most it's probably - -1775 -02:04:07,320 --> 02:04:10,520 -the most deployed piece of software in the world it's in your phone it's in your - -1776 -02:04:10,520 --> 02:04:15,440 -car it's in your fridge it's everywhere but the cool thing about NosterDB is that - -1777 -02:04:15,520 --> 02:04:20,200 -it's kind of like an in-memory database so like as you write to it it's still in - -1778 -02:04:20,200 --> 02:04:23,320 -memory and so it's able to render straight from it doesn't have to come - -1779 -02:04:23,320 --> 02:04:27,000 -from disk it's just straight in memory all the time so that it's just it's as - -1780 -02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:31,720 -fast as you could possibly get that's another approach and so the way I would - -1781 -02:04:31,720 --> 02:04:37,200 -like to do it is which I don't haven't seen many people doing is I would like to - -1782 -02:04:37,200 --> 02:04:41,080 -write as much of my applications possible in one language all the logic and all - -1783 -02:04:41,080 --> 02:04:47,040 -the state like what page am I on what what is this is the button disabled is it - -1784 -02:04:47,040 --> 02:04:51,160 -not disabled are we in a loading state is there an error message you know what's - -1785 -02:04:51,160 --> 02:04:55,400 -the user's name stuff like that like what is the whole state of what should be - -1786 -02:04:55,400 --> 02:04:59,600 -rendered I want that in one language that is really good at cross-platform - -1787 -02:04:59,600 --> 02:05:05,520 -stuff and you know ideally has a lot of libraries it's really fast and so I - -1788 -02:05:05,520 --> 02:05:09,200 -would like that to be Zig just because I have done a lot of rust and I got kind - -1789 -02:05:09,200 --> 02:05:12,760 -of sick of it but Zig doesn't have libraries and all ends don't understand it - -1790 -02:05:12,760 --> 02:05:18,680 -so I ended up doing it in Rust because it's just so much more mature and there's - -1791 -02:05:18,680 --> 02:05:21,760 -so many great libraries especially in the Bitcoin and Masterworld like any - -1792 -02:05:21,760 --> 02:05:25,400 -library if there is a library there's one in Rust yeah and this is actually one - -1793 -02:05:25,400 --> 02:05:28,120 -of the things that turned me off on WebRTC is I was gonna try to do this - -1794 -02:05:28,120 --> 02:05:31,160 -calling thing and I was like well let's do WebRTC there's no rust implementation - -1795 -02:05:31,160 --> 02:05:34,280 -like that to me it's like that if there's not a rust implementation of - -1796 -02:05:34,280 --> 02:05:37,600 -something a grassroots rust implementation of something by now you - -1797 -02:05:37,600 --> 02:05:40,560 -shouldn't use it because it's fucking too complicated it's too fucking - -1798 -02:05:40,560 --> 02:05:44,240 -complicated and so that kind of turned me off on WebRTC that was the first thing - -1799 -02:05:44,240 --> 02:05:49,080 -that made me think WebRTC might not be a good idea but so that's what I want to - -1800 -02:05:49,080 --> 02:05:54,000 -do it all in Rust and then I want to just actually render to the screen with - -1801 -02:05:54,000 --> 02:05:58,600 -whatever the standard thing is on that platform like so whatever Apple says in - -1802 -02:05:58,600 --> 02:06:02,320 -their presentations you should use I want to use that because that's native yes - -1803 -02:06:02,320 --> 02:06:06,040 -not in the sense of speed necessarily because that one way native can be is - -1804 -02:06:06,040 --> 02:06:09,280 -like is it fast like that's one sense in which people use native the other - -1805 -02:06:09,280 --> 02:06:13,620 -sense is like UI you does it feel look like everything else right so I want to - -1806 -02:06:13,620 --> 02:06:19,080 -use Swift UI to to render it I want to use Jekyll pack and pose on Android - -1807 -02:06:19,080 --> 02:06:22,000 -because that's what they how do you do the translation you need to have a - -1808 -02:06:22,000 --> 02:06:25,920 -wrapper and kind of let me feel like on on Web like if I did it on Web and this - -1809 -02:06:25,920 --> 02:06:29,000 -is a little iffy but you know use react because that's just what everyone does - -1810 -02:06:29,000 --> 02:06:35,840 -right and and so yes you need a way to make Rust be able to run Rust code in - -1811 -02:06:35,880 --> 02:06:39,520 -that context so the cool thing is you know Rust originally started as a project - -1812 -02:06:39,520 --> 02:06:42,720 -to attempt to you know browsers have a lot of security vulnerabilities and - -1813 -02:06:42,720 --> 02:06:46,880 -because they're written in C and C++ which are not sort of security they're - -1814 -02:06:46,880 --> 02:06:50,000 -not they weren't built for security from the beginning and so they they just - -1815 -02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:56,960 -tend to have a lot of memory but safety bugs that Rust was invented to fix and - -1816 -02:06:56,960 --> 02:07:02,200 -so it was invented by Mozilla and so they built really good tooling to run - -1817 -02:07:02,200 --> 02:07:06,340 -Rust inside their iOS app their Android app so it's this project called uni - -1818 -02:07:06,340 --> 02:07:10,520 -FFI that allows you to do that it helps you cross compile your code to run on - -1819 -02:07:10,520 --> 02:07:15,100 -that platform so you know you write Rust code and then you build it and then it - -1820 -02:07:15,100 --> 02:07:20,040 -can run on iOS and it also generates types so you can you know the code that - -1821 -02:07:20,040 --> 02:07:26,480 -you can run is easily callable from Swift or from Colin you know so you can - -1822 -02:07:26,480 --> 02:07:30,280 -you know so you can you know pass some object representing the user and you can - -1823 -02:07:30,280 --> 02:07:33,600 -pass around your application where you want to paint the screen so that's - -1824 -02:07:33,600 --> 02:07:38,600 -what so I figured out kind of how to do this and and it was you know it's like - -1825 -02:07:38,600 --> 02:07:41,960 -a couple hundred lines of code to make a simple example but I wanted to - -1826 -02:07:41,960 --> 02:07:45,840 -simplify as much as possible so I got it down like this is like the first two - -1827 -02:07:45,840 --> 02:07:49,280 -weeks I got it down so it's like in Rust you have to define three things you - -1828 -02:07:49,280 --> 02:07:54,040 -have to define a message that the Rust could pass to the front end like - -1829 -02:07:54,040 --> 02:07:57,000 -basically the state change so we have a user now we didn't have a user it logged - -1830 -02:07:57,000 --> 02:07:59,920 -in with their input now we have a user right yeah another thing is like something - -1831 -02:07:59,920 --> 02:08:03,480 -that the UI can send to Rust like hey the user clicked the button right do - -1832 -02:08:03,480 --> 02:08:09,080 -something you know the user yeah it's usually stuff that based on user - -1833 -02:08:09,080 --> 02:08:14,600 -activity and then you have to have something in Rust that will handle these - -1834 -02:08:14,600 --> 02:08:18,880 -these you know incoming events from the UI and send events in the other end and - -1835 -02:08:18,880 --> 02:08:22,600 -so that's one struct or enum it can be either one I think it's only structs now - -1836 -02:08:22,600 --> 02:08:26,840 -but it could be enums and and so that is basically a struct where you have one - -1837 -02:08:26,920 --> 02:08:30,840 -thing that you handle messages and you react to them right and so it's it's - -1838 -02:08:30,840 --> 02:08:33,880 -really simple it's like three things you have to understand and hello world can - -1839 -02:08:33,880 --> 02:08:37,960 -be like I think we got to 60 lines I got to 60 lines of code and I was able to - -1840 -02:08:37,960 --> 02:08:42,680 -generate a lot of a code that is needed to sort of do these bridging things yeah - -1841 -02:08:42,680 --> 02:08:47,160 -okay like you know the translation from what is in the database to the UI is - -1842 -02:08:47,160 --> 02:08:52,080 -kind of basically viable yeah it's no it's it's I my library generates it kind - -1843 -02:08:52,080 --> 02:08:56,320 -of okay more or less like you have this struct that's in memory and I had another - -1844 -02:08:56,320 --> 02:09:00,000 -version that was in SQLite like mess this messenger thing but what's contained - -1845 -02:09:00,000 --> 02:09:03,400 -in this struct is like because some of the UI elements between the platforms - -1846 -02:09:03,400 --> 02:09:09,920 -differ right so it's this it's just like what page are we on what what are we - -1847 -02:09:09,920 --> 02:09:13,960 -renders who does the translation from a page of how how does the top navigation - -1848 -02:09:13,960 --> 02:09:17,480 -bar look because on iOS you have the the little so you think of it this way like - -1849 -02:09:17,480 --> 02:09:21,840 -you're you're you're building up a stack of views right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah - -1850 -02:09:21,840 --> 02:09:26,080 -yeah so you you see you'll have a stack of views with the data that is - -1851 -02:09:26,080 --> 02:09:30,360 -associated with them and then you're rendering in Swift UI or Jetpack - -1852 -02:09:30,360 --> 02:09:34,440 -Compose gets that you know think of it as a struct or a JSON object and it just - -1853 -02:09:34,440 --> 02:09:37,600 -it you know it'll look at the top one and that's what's on the top of this that - -1854 -02:09:37,600 --> 02:09:40,680 -it'll you know something the view will also have a title and so because I - -1855 -02:09:40,680 --> 02:09:45,560 -just place the title for you yeah yeah the same is what vital is going on it's - -1856 -02:09:45,560 --> 02:09:49,800 -like the coding it's actually presenting the page is probably exactly what amethyst - -1857 -02:09:49,840 --> 02:09:54,840 -does it's just whatever that you do in in Android like whatever the standard - -1858 -02:09:54,840 --> 02:09:58,680 -thing is and you're just doing it based on data that is it's in like a view - -1859 -02:09:58,680 --> 02:10:01,480 -model it's in it's in something I think it's called like composable or - -1860 -02:10:01,480 --> 02:10:06,240 -something in in Jetpack and post so it's a it's a it's a basically a type of - -1861 -02:10:06,240 --> 02:10:11,920 -struct that can notice when attributes change right so like you can have stuff - -1862 -02:10:11,920 --> 02:10:16,280 -where like if you have your state and rust and it changes you have to somehow - -1863 -02:10:16,280 --> 02:10:19,600 -tell the front end that something change it need to re-render that's if - -1864 -02:10:19,600 --> 02:10:22,560 -you're a reactivity it's basically like when did my data change when should I - -1865 -02:10:22,560 --> 02:10:25,760 -paint again yeah will doesn't have this problem because he when does he paint - -1866 -02:10:25,760 --> 02:10:30,040 -again 60 times a second he paints no matter what like he doesn't have to he - -1867 -02:10:30,040 --> 02:10:32,680 -doesn't have to notice if something changed because as soon as he's done - -1868 -02:10:32,680 --> 02:10:36,200 -painting he starts painting again yeah all he does is paint you know you paint - -1869 -02:10:36,200 --> 02:10:39,160 -paint paint that's all will doesn't you know that's what his app does that's - -1870 -02:10:39,160 --> 02:10:43,600 -why it's so fast so so so that's but that my library generates all this - -1871 -02:10:43,600 --> 02:10:47,920 -free so you don't even see any of that shit you just see this this this you - -1872 -02:10:47,920 --> 02:10:53,320 -know some data structure that your editor understands so you can jump to - -1873 -02:10:53,320 --> 02:10:57,800 -definition see what the types mean you can autocomplete stuff and so you know - -1874 -02:10:57,800 --> 02:11:02,400 -you say what page are we on okay then render that page in the this you know - -1875 -02:11:02,400 --> 02:11:05,520 -SwiftUI or Jetpack and post router okay we're on that page what is the user's - -1876 -02:11:05,520 --> 02:11:09,800 -name put that in there you know yeah it's it's so it's purely declarative and - -1877 -02:11:09,800 --> 02:11:15,400 -all you do is given this piece of data you draw with how they do it and so the - -1878 -02:11:15,400 --> 02:11:18,960 -cool thing about this like one reason I don't want to do the way that like - -1879 -02:11:18,960 --> 02:11:22,760 -say primal does it is that I don't want to write three ui's yeah like if I want - -1880 -02:11:22,760 --> 02:11:26,000 -to write an app I would like it to one multiple places and I am not gonna - -1881 -02:11:26,000 --> 02:11:29,680 -learn I'm not gonna learn Swift I am not gonna call in it I'm not gonna do - -1882 -02:11:29,680 --> 02:11:34,200 -that but I am willing to learn a little bit about the like the DSL for how to - -1883 -02:11:34,200 --> 02:11:37,280 -lay out a page because that's much simpler than the language itself right - -1884 -02:11:37,280 --> 02:11:39,600 -you don't have to understand currency you don't have some memory you don't - -1885 -02:11:39,600 --> 02:11:43,280 -have some garbage collection you don't have to fucking anything and in general - -1886 -02:11:43,280 --> 02:11:45,680 -if you set up the tools well enough this is what I've been working on since then - -1887 -02:11:45,680 --> 02:11:49,520 -I was talking about these MCPs I think you should get to a point where you can - -1888 -02:11:49,520 --> 02:11:53,640 -basically vibe code the entire UI yeah so what you're actually engineering - -1889 -02:11:53,640 --> 02:12:00,360 -mostly is that the logic like what should this do what should when I get an - -1890 -02:12:00,360 --> 02:12:05,520 -event what should my events right like how how well what are the events that - -1891 -02:12:05,520 --> 02:12:10,280 -that the user can trigger and what what are the effects that I can present to - -1892 -02:12:10,280 --> 02:12:13,480 -them after that's happening like a loading state or like the post is - -1893 -02:12:13,480 --> 02:12:17,480 -published and now you're looking at the post right yeah so you think about that - -1894 -02:12:17,480 --> 02:12:21,640 -and how to handle it and you know you write your logic and rust and then you - -1895 -02:12:21,640 --> 02:12:28,480 -get just a very simple thing that you can tell an LLM to you know render this - -1896 -02:12:28,480 --> 02:12:33,240 -drawing I made yeah you know and and so I did this I did one demo with this - -1897 -02:12:33,240 --> 02:12:40,160 -which was like a unique e-cash wallet that I was able to I was able to I made - -1898 -02:12:40,160 --> 02:12:46,520 -an Excalidraw for the flow of the app it had like seven pages and and I took - -1899 -02:12:46,520 --> 02:12:50,760 -this Excalidraw and I gave it to an LLM and said implement this and it - -1900 -02:12:50,760 --> 02:12:54,360 -and it implemented that it had a few it did like two or three things wrong but - -1901 -02:12:54,360 --> 02:12:58,560 -I was able to cut them out like I had a history thing you're supposed to swipe - -1902 -02:12:58,560 --> 02:13:03,000 -up to get it it didn't get that and it put two screens in the wrong order I - -1903 -02:13:03,040 --> 02:13:07,080 -just reordered them manually and then it was basically what I drew insane it - -1904 -02:13:07,080 --> 02:13:11,360 -was insane yeah and so like so I think this it's a good fit for LLM tools because - -1905 -02:13:11,360 --> 02:13:14,400 -it's like you still need software you're not yeah I don't really believe in the - -1906 -02:13:14,400 --> 02:13:17,200 -world where you have really high quality apps are purely produced by a computer - -1907 -02:13:17,200 --> 02:13:21,880 -like I don't think that's realistic at least now but I think parts of it can be - -1908 -02:13:21,880 --> 02:13:25,200 -produced by computer and the one thing that they're really really good at is - -1909 -02:13:25,200 --> 02:13:31,280 -making you eyes yeah and so that's the like so you can get like so a lot of the - -1910 -02:13:31,320 --> 02:13:34,160 -vibe coding like aha moments or when you try to make like a little like one - -1911 -02:13:34,160 --> 02:13:38,520 -like 500 line react app it can one shot those but if you have like a 10,000 - -1912 -02:13:38,520 --> 02:13:42,160 -line react app you try to get a feature it's gonna get lost yeah but like so - -1913 -02:13:42,160 --> 02:13:47,160 -can you make a big complicated app where at least in the UI side it's very simple - -1914 -02:13:47,160 --> 02:13:51,240 -and all the DAB is there and there's an LSP for it to tell it if it's the - -1915 -02:13:51,240 --> 02:13:54,920 -lynching's wrong and it can screenshot the UI to see if it matches up with the - -1916 -02:13:54,920 --> 02:13:59,320 -flows you gave it so that's something where it's like me as a solo developer I - -1917 -02:13:59,320 --> 02:14:02,920 -feel like I could maintain five nostrils yeah that are very high - -1918 -02:14:02,920 --> 02:14:06,520 -performance is not as high performance as one specific thing yeah it's not - -1919 -02:14:06,520 --> 02:14:09,840 -asked for high performance is Will's thing but it's also like you know he's - -1920 -02:14:09,840 --> 02:14:14,920 -having to implement gift renders yeah I don't even understand how my UI is - -1921 -02:14:14,920 --> 02:14:18,880 -rendered like I don't even yeah you don't need to care I don't care you don't - -1922 -02:14:18,880 --> 02:14:24,680 -need to care yeah right like it's it's it's like a button for me yeah it's funny - -1923 -02:14:24,680 --> 02:14:28,280 -to see how this evolves and should we walk one more around and then like grab a - -1924 -02:14:28,320 --> 02:14:34,240 -coffee yeah it's like I think I can walk again for a little bit but the so - -1925 -02:14:34,240 --> 02:14:40,840 -Pablo also I spoke about it with him last week so he is transforming NDK now - -1926 -02:14:40,840 --> 02:14:46,680 -and especially the NDK documentation so he's producing snippets basically stand - -1927 -02:14:46,680 --> 02:14:52,040 -alone code examples of how to do one thing yeah and make it like very easily - -1928 -02:14:52,040 --> 02:14:55,520 -digestible by an LML yeah yeah and just and just that's the documentation so - -1929 -02:14:55,520 --> 02:14:58,360 -this is another thing I want to do is there's this thing called seven gooies - -1930 -02:14:58,360 --> 02:15:03,400 -yeah yeah yeah I know it from Paul yes seven gooies is like how do you say - -1931 -02:15:03,400 --> 02:15:07,880 -it's like it's like a benchmark for UI frameworks right so it's like the - -1932 -02:15:07,880 --> 02:15:11,320 -first thing is a counter app the second app the second one is like click the - -1933 -02:15:11,320 --> 02:15:15,480 -calendar and it increments yeah plus one down right and then it's a timer right - -1934 -02:15:15,480 --> 02:15:18,400 -which is has to have like some asynchronous thing where you're counting - -1935 -02:15:18,400 --> 02:15:20,760 -and then there's like a temperature converter and the last one is a - -1936 -02:15:20,760 --> 02:15:24,640 -spreadsheet yeah as this like as I was implementing this I was going back and - -1937 -02:15:24,640 --> 02:15:29,400 -forth with LMS being like write me the rust side of it yeah and then like okay - -1938 -02:15:29,400 --> 02:15:33,200 -and then I say okay this would be the data model right like now write me a UI - -1939 -02:15:33,200 --> 02:15:36,760 -based on the static data so I didn't actually write the app so I was thinking - -1940 -02:15:36,760 --> 02:15:39,920 -about like could this how would it look like in this paradigm to do the whole - -1941 -02:15:39,920 --> 02:15:42,560 -seven gooies and eventually I will implement all of them and that will be - -1942 -02:15:42,560 --> 02:15:47,320 -my docs right so it's like here is the full GUI benchmark yeah and so now you - -1943 -02:15:47,320 --> 02:15:51,200 -should be able to understand like like you'd give that as context to models and - -1944 -02:15:51,200 --> 02:15:55,840 -be like here are examples of apps yeah like and you could give it like you - -1945 -02:15:55,840 --> 02:15:59,000 -know if you had a bunch of little you know I make a little e-cash while make a - -1946 -02:15:59,000 --> 02:16:02,760 -little a couple things like that and those could be the things that that the - -1947 -02:16:02,760 --> 02:16:09,720 -LLMs used to kind of as context to generate their code I think we'll have - -1948 -02:16:09,720 --> 02:16:13,680 -to turn around here yeah it's it's really funny to me to see it evolve and how - -1949 -02:16:13,680 --> 02:16:17,920 -everyone uses that and now we're purpose-building tools to make it - -1950 -02:16:17,920 --> 02:16:21,680 -easier for us to work with LLMs going forward yeah that's what that's why - -1951 -02:16:21,680 --> 02:16:24,960 -you are building Rust multiplatform yeah I mean it's funny too because I'm - -1952 -02:16:24,960 --> 02:16:27,760 -never the type of person that would work on a framework like that just it's not - -1953 -02:16:27,760 --> 02:16:30,480 -appealing at all yeah like I'm much more of a pragmatist for it's like I just - -1954 -02:16:30,480 --> 02:16:34,040 -want I have a thing I want you are being pragmatic yeah yeah well but this is - -1955 -02:16:34,040 --> 02:16:36,520 -something where it's like I can't tell if it's just because I'm more mature now - -1956 -02:16:36,520 --> 02:16:39,520 -as an about and developer because like especially in FEDI and FEDI meant like - -1957 -02:16:39,520 --> 02:16:43,240 -that was such a massive project I learned so much from like you know like - -1958 -02:16:43,240 --> 02:16:46,640 -there's a time where I had the entire FEDI meant thing in my head and I had the - -1959 -02:16:46,680 --> 02:16:50,400 -entire FEDI thing in my head the whole thing in my head and it was watching it - -1960 -02:16:50,400 --> 02:16:53,760 -for two years and learn so much as though like it made me like kind of a - -1961 -02:16:53,760 --> 02:16:57,520 -little more interested in oftentimes we you know we'd have a problem and we - -1962 -02:16:57,520 --> 02:17:00,720 -build tooling and the problem would go away yeah so it's like I think it was - -1963 -02:17:00,720 --> 02:17:03,400 -part of it is like this is a natural progression the developer goes through - -1964 -02:17:03,400 --> 02:17:06,680 -whether you see enough and you're like damn certain tools really make your - -1965 -02:17:06,680 --> 02:17:10,520 -problems go away so in a sense I'm just learning from that experience but it's - -1966 -02:17:10,520 --> 02:17:15,080 -also like the LLM where it's like I would have never spent time you know I had - -1967 -02:17:15,080 --> 02:17:18,800 -like seven structs and stuff that for the first version of this that I did - -1968 -02:17:18,800 --> 02:17:22,640 -manually and then I got it down to three with a macro with macros that would - -1969 -02:17:22,640 --> 02:17:28,040 -generate code for me and I have I'm generating all kinds of code just so I - -1970 -02:17:28,040 --> 02:17:32,600 -can get it maximally simple yeah and see if it could work and that's something I - -1971 -02:17:32,600 --> 02:17:35,720 -would have never done manually I've never written a rust macro because I - -1972 -02:17:35,720 --> 02:17:40,840 -don't have the fish and autism like I would always have a guy for that right - -1973 -02:17:40,840 --> 02:17:45,160 -like we should run in boat if people yeah like after after listening to all - -1974 -02:17:45,160 --> 02:17:50,120 -that let's see but I know like I've been doing rust and I was pretty good at it - -1975 -02:17:50,120 --> 02:17:53,000 -but I've had like almost like an unconscious policy I will not write a - -1976 -02:17:53,000 --> 02:17:57,040 -fucking macro yeah like I'm not gonna do it because it's it's very difficult this - -1977 -02:17:57,040 --> 02:18:01,120 -is actually one reason I write I think Zig is cool so rust has this like the - -1978 -02:18:01,120 --> 02:18:05,360 -heart of macros like meta programming so it's like programming that generates - -1979 -02:18:05,360 --> 02:18:09,160 -your coat your program and it's the hardest type of programming like in C - -1980 -02:18:09,640 --> 02:18:12,560 -for example you have to it's two languages see the actual runtime language - -1981 -02:18:12,560 --> 02:18:16,440 -it's pretty simple like you can learn it in like a couple days because there's - -1982 -02:18:16,440 --> 02:18:19,760 -not that many structs but of course there's a lifetime of little nuances but - -1983 -02:18:19,760 --> 02:18:24,400 -the meta programming like the if-deaf like yeah if I'm declining on Mac OS like - -1984 -02:18:24,400 --> 02:18:27,840 -inject this code if not that's like a whole nother language and it's dog shit - -1985 -02:18:27,840 --> 02:18:31,120 -yeah compared to see like see very elegant kind of amazing language that it's - -1986 -02:18:31,120 --> 02:18:35,560 -still the go-to thing for embedded programming for example like 50 years - -1987 -02:18:35,560 --> 02:18:39,720 -layer yeah it's unbelievably how how good and how success how well they - -1988 -02:18:39,720 --> 02:18:44,040 -sign yeah yeah but the macro language sucks and I would say rusts is not that - -1989 -02:18:44,040 --> 02:18:48,040 -much better it's better but it still sucks like it's very uh you look at a - -1990 -02:18:48,040 --> 02:18:52,560 -rust rust code it's not so bad you look at a macro it's like Jesus I'd like - -1991 -02:18:52,560 --> 02:18:56,080 -just don't dollar signs everywhere it's really confusing the cool thing about - -1992 -02:18:56,080 --> 02:18:59,800 -Zig is it has something called comp time where you can just label various - -1993 -02:18:59,800 --> 02:19:05,240 -variables or functions and that code is executed while your code compiles so - -1994 -02:19:05,240 --> 02:19:09,160 -your meta programming is not a second language like it is and see or a second - -1995 -02:19:09,160 --> 02:19:12,920 -language like it is and injects that compile time it's it's the same syntax - -1996 -02:19:12,920 --> 02:19:16,880 -but it's just evaluated when your code compiles and so you can have like a - -1997 -02:19:16,880 --> 02:19:21,320 -variable for example where you you evaluate it at comp time and even the - -1998 -02:19:21,320 --> 02:19:24,200 -statically typed language where you know you have a function it should only take - -1999 -02:19:24,200 --> 02:19:28,480 -a 32-bit integer or 16-minute integer it should be different you can say - -2000 -02:19:28,480 --> 02:19:32,480 -comp time and you can say hey a comp time will make separate versions of this - -2001 -02:19:32,480 --> 02:19:36,520 -function for any type of integer so now you have like Python style duck typing - -2002 -02:19:36,520 --> 02:19:40,240 -where yeah any sort of int looking thing can work because at comp time you - -2003 -02:19:40,240 --> 02:19:43,840 -basically generate versions for every one of these so it's like that's one of - -2004 -02:19:43,840 --> 02:19:46,760 -the really cool things about Zig is is the hardest part of programming that a - -2005 -02:19:46,760 --> 02:19:54,080 -programming is now just as easy as the normal part of programming but yeah I - -2006 -02:19:54,080 --> 02:19:58,080 -don't know why I went off on that tangent I mean it's a I knew I knew it - -2007 -02:19:58,080 --> 02:20:04,480 -would be a sick conversation so yeah I knew it would be I think I think I - -2008 -02:20:04,480 --> 02:20:08,240 -think it would be cool and nostril if we could have more unique style and this - -2009 -02:20:08,240 --> 02:20:11,920 -is one thing that's made me a lot more interested in I think that's actually - -2010 -02:20:11,920 --> 02:20:16,160 -where it's trending I really I really do I already use different nostril apps and - -2011 -02:20:16,160 --> 02:20:19,680 -tools it's funny in a sense it's trending in the opposite direction on the visible - -2012 -02:20:19,680 --> 02:20:24,080 -level because all the apps are becoming more and more monoling like primal and - -2013 -02:20:24,080 --> 02:20:27,360 -primal and amethyst is becoming more and more I think we have to differentiate - -2014 -02:20:27,360 --> 02:20:30,480 -I think it's becoming bimodal right like you're having you have you have - -2015 -02:20:30,480 --> 02:20:34,720 -monolithic apps and then you're gonna have the opposite and there's gonna be - -2016 -02:20:34,720 --> 02:20:38,000 -even it's gonna be no mid-curve I think kind of yeah like you either have to - -2017 -02:20:38,000 --> 02:20:41,320 -have the kitchen sink or you're gonna be one off and the thing is like the - -2018 -02:20:41,320 --> 02:20:46,440 -Unix apps on on iOS if you're trying to do this on iOS like it you're kind of - -2019 -02:20:46,440 --> 02:20:51,200 -neutered because you can't have a you can't have one relay you actually can so - -2020 -02:20:51,200 --> 02:20:55,280 -like in general iOS can't apps can't talk to them each other like you can't - -2021 -02:20:55,280 --> 02:20:59,040 -have an on device relay is what you mean or yeah you can't you can't have a - -2022 -02:20:59,040 --> 02:21:04,800 -sh well okay so let me back up like the unit the whole point of Unix tools is - -2023 -02:21:04,800 --> 02:21:08,640 -that you can pipe them yes right so the input is text output is text right so - -2024 -02:21:08,640 --> 02:21:13,200 -you can the cat program reads a file and puts it out and then you can pipe that - -2025 -02:21:13,200 --> 02:21:16,320 -you just do the vertical straight up and down character we're just saying this - -2026 -02:21:16,320 --> 02:21:19,920 -for the listeners and then you can pass in the next thing like grep grep searches - -2027 -02:21:19,920 --> 02:21:23,200 -so you can get search search it for something you're interested in and then - -2028 -02:21:23,200 --> 02:21:28,040 -you can use like another said to replace so you can read a file search what's - -2029 -02:21:28,040 --> 02:21:30,920 -relevant and then find and replace the part that you want to do like rename a - -2030 -02:21:30,920 --> 02:21:36,040 -functioning and so that's the brilliance of like a bunch of little single purpose - -2031 -02:21:36,040 --> 02:21:39,480 -tools kind of suck if they can't be composed but if they can be composed - -2032 -02:21:39,480 --> 02:21:43,200 -it's a superpower and that paradigm still exists 50 or 60 years later yeah from - -2033 -02:21:43,200 --> 02:21:47,760 -why Unix was invented and that's what this is one of the two things that Andreas - -2034 -02:21:47,760 --> 02:21:51,960 -Kling was trying to you know put into his operating system the other one was - -2035 -02:21:51,960 --> 02:21:57,520 -the windows things right so so if you translate this to mobile the thing you - -2036 -02:21:57,520 --> 02:22:01,080 -need is for apps to talk to them each other yeah you need to input an output - -2037 -02:22:01,080 --> 02:22:04,200 -between apps you need to be like a function in a sense right at least at - -2038 -02:22:04,200 --> 02:22:06,760 -least some something like that like I don't think you'll ever get quite to the - -2039 -02:22:06,760 --> 02:22:09,240 -Unix tools level but you they need to talk to each other I mean that's the whole - -2040 -02:22:09,240 --> 02:22:12,400 -idea of dbm said the whole idea of nostril events in the first place yeah I - -2041 -02:22:12,400 --> 02:22:16,760 -mean that that can help to some degree but like you can't like so one thing - -2042 -02:22:16,760 --> 02:22:18,960 -you just start from scratch like okay I would like to have one app that does - -2043 -02:22:19,000 --> 02:22:22,280 -sign it like I want to prepare an event and then I want to have another app - -2044 -02:22:22,280 --> 02:22:25,800 -sign it yeah you that's very easy on Android you basically we have it on - -2045 -02:22:25,800 --> 02:22:29,920 -you can't really do it on iOS with one exception that's almost hilarious the - -2046 -02:22:29,920 --> 02:22:33,440 -part of me wants to do it just to piss everybody off you can do it if the - -2047 -02:22:33,440 --> 02:22:38,180 -apps are from the same app developer so what I could do is I could make an - -2048 -02:22:38,180 --> 02:22:44,560 -Apple developer account and I could have a Unix tool set of iOS apps that can talk - -2049 -02:22:44,560 --> 02:22:50,680 -to each other only because I only because they're my wall of garden - -2050 -02:22:50,680 --> 02:22:54,440 -like every every app that's signed by the same developer I think so that's my - -2051 -02:22:54,440 --> 02:22:57,520 -understanding right so if you saw it Yeti project I forget the guy's name is - -2052 -02:22:57,520 --> 02:23:01,440 -doing it but it's like a signer for iOS that's the constraint is that it all - -2053 -02:23:01,440 --> 02:23:05,320 -has to be you know it is a signer that can be used by multiple out what if we - -2054 -02:23:05,320 --> 02:23:09,800 -what if we what if we use something smart like frost to share our ultimate - -2055 -02:23:09,800 --> 02:23:13,400 -signing keys but have it but potentially so that this would be an irony - -2056 -02:23:13,400 --> 02:23:17,720 -like just a shared noster iOS app sign you could you could you could we could - -2057 -02:23:17,720 --> 02:23:21,120 -do something like that where we have like the entire noster equals no one - -2058 -02:23:21,120 --> 02:23:25,840 -actually owns the key it's just generated from my care for like a thousand keys - -2059 -02:23:25,840 --> 02:23:29,680 -yeah like you we could have a noster like we would have to set up some kind of - -2060 -02:23:29,680 --> 02:23:34,000 -legal identity for iOS except it yeah but like you could we could have had like - -2061 -02:23:34,000 --> 02:23:38,000 -a pool of a thousand keys a federation we could have a federation and you'd get - -2062 -02:23:38,000 --> 02:23:42,560 -like the Android user experience I've been thinking about doing that but but - -2063 -02:23:42,560 --> 02:23:47,160 -it does you know in in lieu of that you could have a pretty cool they get - -2064 -02:23:47,160 --> 02:23:50,000 -it makes me much more interested in Android because like these things just - -2065 -02:23:50,000 --> 02:23:55,760 -work yeah you know so the unit absolutely works a unique tools vision is much - -2066 -02:23:55,760 --> 02:23:59,560 -more achievable on and that's why I'm saying like I'm already using it like - -2067 -02:23:59,560 --> 02:24:02,400 -that and I know my mom is never gonna use an ostrich like that you know like - -2068 -02:24:02,400 --> 02:24:05,720 -she's gonna default to a kitchen sink client that's on and that being said - -2069 -02:24:05,720 --> 02:24:10,160 -I'm still a huge fan of both prime or eventually block will make a phone sure - -2070 -02:24:10,160 --> 02:24:16,280 -yeah that does this but I'm like I like I run amra I run so I have an - -2071 -02:24:16,280 --> 02:24:20,720 -on-device relay I have an on-device signer you know I have I've dedicated apps - -2072 -02:24:20,720 --> 02:24:24,520 -for various things for various content types and those kind of things but here's - -2073 -02:24:24,520 --> 02:24:27,120 -the interesting thing with this Rust multi-platform like if I got it - -2074 -02:24:27,120 --> 02:24:30,080 -sufficiently good where it's like like the thing I was working today is like - -2075 -02:24:30,080 --> 02:24:32,800 -Reaper this week was reached produce will build right yeah like I packaged - -2076 -02:24:32,800 --> 02:24:36,120 -hex code I packaged it so like I could build it's not quite there but I could - -2077 -02:24:36,120 --> 02:24:40,880 -build my app on both platforms reproducibly with a fresh laptop I just - -2078 -02:24:40,880 --> 02:24:44,960 -bought yeah you know and I can I can do that same thing the same build for my - -2079 -02:24:44,960 --> 02:24:48,560 -dev the same build for when I produce like an actual APK or something that - -2080 -02:24:48,560 --> 02:24:52,880 -needs to be like secure same exact software set up bit by bit and what - -2081 -02:24:52,880 --> 02:24:55,960 -friends and CI which runs my tests which gates like whether the code is - -2082 -02:24:55,960 --> 02:25:00,320 -accepted or not yeah so like so that's not like if I have all these tools I'm - -2083 -02:25:00,320 --> 02:25:04,080 -pretty sure I could build this entire ecosystem myself like literally one guy - -2084 -02:25:04,320 --> 02:25:08,640 -like I would not need any help and I could build like ten apps not the - -2085 -02:25:08,640 --> 02:25:11,280 -entire ecosystem but like enough where there could be a phone there could be a - -2086 -02:25:11,280 --> 02:25:15,280 -camera there could be like I feel like I could kind of have the Unix tools of - -2087 -02:25:15,280 --> 02:25:20,920 -like a phone and like one guy I think I could actually do all this myself if I - -2088 -02:25:20,920 --> 02:25:26,700 -had the tools good enough ahead of time yeah and you know like the signer - -2089 -02:25:26,700 --> 02:25:28,920 -wouldn't be that hard because there's like these Rust libraries are really - -2090 -02:25:28,920 --> 02:25:31,880 -good right the relay wouldn't be that good because I'm leading on all these - -2091 -02:25:31,920 --> 02:25:36,960 -great libraries yeah but I think I think the way smarter way would be to figure - -2092 -02:25:36,960 --> 02:25:40,360 -out how to get around this limitation and share a signing key in some way yeah - -2093 -02:25:40,360 --> 02:25:45,000 -yeah in some cryptographic way that that no single person can pull the whole - -2094 -02:25:45,000 --> 02:25:51,680 -effort because it's it's I don't I don't believe in doing things oh yeah - -2095 -02:25:51,680 --> 02:25:55,360 -I'm not saying this that I would like I don't I wouldn't I wouldn't seriously do - -2096 -02:25:55,360 --> 02:25:58,120 -this I always worry about Pablo because he tries to do all the things - -2097 -02:25:58,200 --> 02:26:02,320 -himself basically yeah and it's also the other thing too is like like this is - -2098 -02:26:02,320 --> 02:26:04,480 -another thing that's not necessarily that I would want to do that because I - -2099 -02:26:04,480 --> 02:26:07,400 -actually don't want to do that very much don't want to do that don't want to be - -2100 -02:26:07,400 --> 02:26:11,200 -in charge of all that but it's it's like a benchmark right like could you do it - -2101 -02:26:11,200 --> 02:26:14,840 -all yourself yeah that's right yeah if you could because like I'm a smart - -2102 -02:26:14,840 --> 02:26:17,920 -developer but I also have a limited things like holding my head at once right - -2103 -02:26:17,920 --> 02:26:21,840 -if it's simple enough I can do different things yeah it's like well I know a lot - -2104 -02:26:21,840 --> 02:26:25,240 -of guys who could just pick up a few of these apps and do them themselves yeah - -2105 -02:26:25,240 --> 02:26:28,360 -there's probably plenty others who could do it solve themselves but it would - -2106 -02:26:28,360 --> 02:26:31,360 -make it in a community context more maintainable by a group right like if - -2107 -02:26:31,360 --> 02:26:35,160 -if one person could do it all if you got it simple enough where one person could - -2108 -02:26:35,160 --> 02:26:39,800 -do 10 yeah yeah then it's very simple and then you then you don't need so that's - -2109 -02:26:39,800 --> 02:26:42,880 -thing then you don't need 10 then you don't need one person anymore yeah because - -2110 -02:26:42,880 --> 02:26:45,360 -then you can that's fair then you can share it like then you can share the load - -2111 -02:26:45,360 --> 02:26:49,080 -a lot easier you can open it up but if it's like in order to get started like - -2112 -02:26:49,080 --> 02:26:51,920 -this is the problem I confirmed when we first started Fedis like how the fuck - -2113 -02:26:51,920 --> 02:26:55,160 -do you put all this fancy ass rust code into a mobile app right like that was - -2114 -02:26:55,160 --> 02:26:57,360 -very difficult for a month just figuring out how it is because there's no - -2115 -02:26:57,360 --> 02:27:00,640 -prior there isn't good prior art for this yeah like there was like two or three - -2116 -02:27:00,640 --> 02:27:04,600 -GitHub examples I saw that were shitty and I had to just figure it out so it's - -2117 -02:27:04,600 --> 02:27:09,240 -like if all of that was just kind of taken care of for you where like and the - -2118 -02:27:09,240 --> 02:27:13,240 -AI could you just have to write a little logic and you have to kind of no rust - -2119 -02:27:13,240 --> 02:27:16,840 -and you have to and the AI will write your UI for you and you know you're at the - -2120 -02:27:16,840 --> 02:27:19,840 -end of the day you're using like the rust nostril SDK you're using lipsecp - -2121 -02:27:19,840 --> 02:27:23,840 -rust wrapper you're using all these the heavy lifting it's easy to pay you're - -2122 -02:27:23,840 --> 02:27:29,280 -using Fediment client using all these great rust libraries like you yeah I - -2123 -02:27:29,280 --> 02:27:34,040 -think more more stuff becomes possible there yeah and I mean the other option - -2124 -02:27:34,040 --> 02:27:36,880 -is like you know you just kind of the version of this now is everyone just - -2125 -02:27:36,880 --> 02:27:40,440 -writes web apps but yeah I think the I don't know there's something about like - -2126 -02:27:40,440 --> 02:27:43,960 -quote-unquote native app it just feels so much better in your hand it's also it's - -2127 -02:27:43,960 --> 02:27:47,200 -like what most of the nostril developers miss or many of the nostril developers - -2128 -02:27:47,200 --> 02:27:51,000 -miss like those that are building the web apps it's like 98% of people are on - -2129 -02:27:51,000 --> 02:27:54,940 -phones yeah it's just like your web app is completely uninteresting if there - -2130 -02:27:54,940 --> 02:27:57,640 -isn't an app that people can install those people are not gonna use it but I - -2131 -02:27:57,640 --> 02:28:01,120 -mean you can install it as a PWA and like I think mutiny showed that you can get - -2132 -02:28:01,120 --> 02:28:05,560 -a pretty good PWA yeah you can do this but it's not it's not it's not people - -2133 -02:28:05,560 --> 02:28:08,800 -don't know what it is and how do you do it's kind of jamming a square into a - -2134 -02:28:08,800 --> 02:28:13,280 -round hole a little bit right but it's like I'm I'm kind of you know I'm of two - -2135 -02:28:13,280 --> 02:28:16,200 -minds with all that stuff because it's also I think that the app stores are - -2136 -02:28:16,200 --> 02:28:20,040 -gonna be a massive yeah issue going forward this is the other thing that - -2137 -02:28:20,040 --> 02:28:24,760 -and that makes Android is fantastic just because of Sep Store alone yeah no that - -2138 -02:28:24,760 --> 02:28:26,720 -that's the other thing that makes Android so much more appealing is like - -2139 -02:28:26,720 --> 02:28:29,880 -let's say I did this on iOS like literally the only way I would do this - -2140 -02:28:29,880 --> 02:28:33,280 -actually so the idea that one person could do it alone is false cuz I could - -2141 -02:28:33,280 --> 02:28:37,040 -write all the if you could sidelone on app stores yeah on iOS maybe I could do - -2142 -02:28:37,040 --> 02:28:40,600 -this yeah but without that like I would literally kill myself if I had to like - -2143 -02:28:40,600 --> 02:28:46,360 -literally if I had to manage 10 different app like that is the code - -2144 -02:28:46,360 --> 02:28:50,520 -signing along I mean it's funny the we'll know that the code sign I could do all - -2145 -02:28:50,520 --> 02:28:55,640 -in next but I can automate all that the fucking clicking around the the generating - -2146 -02:28:55,640 --> 02:29:00,680 -the screen Joe oh and and then like the retarded things the reviewers send back - -2147 -02:29:00,680 --> 02:29:04,920 -like it's more of that like doing with that person that's different every time - -2148 -02:29:04,920 --> 02:29:07,480 -and is an idiot and doesn't understand what you're doing yeah and you are - -2149 -02:29:07,480 --> 02:29:10,880 -probably you know going against what they want you to do to some extent yeah - -2150 -02:29:10,880 --> 02:29:15,760 -sure like that was so I would have to hire somebody to do that yeah like there's - -2151 -02:29:15,760 --> 02:29:19,480 -no way I would do that myself I would I would just crash and burn if I tried to - -2152 -02:29:19,480 --> 02:29:22,960 -do that yeah but that's that's the thing that's so appealing with zap store is - -2153 -02:29:22,960 --> 02:29:27,240 -like you know you could get it where it's like if CI is green 10 minutes later - -2154 -02:29:27,240 --> 02:29:31,120 -there's a new yes absolutely that's how it works right now yeah and and that's - -2155 -02:29:31,120 --> 02:29:35,320 -that's really appealing yeah and yourself sign it so like distribution - -2156 -02:29:35,320 --> 02:29:39,880 -distribution is like in if I kept doing this like in principle I think I - -2157 -02:29:39,880 --> 02:29:45,160 -could get the distribution story for zaps for Android to be as good as it is - -2158 -02:29:45,160 --> 02:29:48,040 -on the web because that's the thing that's actually the thing right now that the - -2159 -02:29:48,040 --> 02:29:52,840 -web is really good at is the distribution is so easy yeah like you can just set - -2160 -02:29:52,840 --> 02:29:57,080 -up get hooks to resell and your website shows up yeah when it's done building - -2161 -02:29:57,080 --> 02:30:02,880 -yeah like no like you push it to github yeah as long as it's on yeah you know - -2162 -02:30:02,880 --> 02:30:07,280 -like but that sort enables this for AP AP case but and that's one thing that - -2163 -02:30:07,280 --> 02:30:10,120 -I you know like I don't think any of us understand how important that is like - -2164 -02:30:10,120 --> 02:30:14,440 -we don't oh I maybe most people don't most people don't understand yeah I - -2165 -02:30:14,440 --> 02:30:17,600 -don't think I appreciate yeah I don't think I appreciate yeah like every week - -2166 -02:30:17,600 --> 02:30:22,800 -I'm like more realizing super important how important that is yeah so I don't - -2167 -02:30:22,800 --> 02:30:25,880 -think I fully understand it because I did I'm more bullish on one than I was - -2168 -02:30:25,880 --> 02:30:29,640 -last week yeah and last week I was more bullish on that was the previous week - -2169 -02:30:29,640 --> 02:30:33,960 -so I just look back forward like I don't think I understand it quite yet and also - -2170 -02:30:33,960 --> 02:30:36,600 -with enough tooling this stuff will be easier and easier and easier and it's - -2171 -02:30:36,600 --> 02:30:39,920 -still so underutilized because Step Store is mostly an Android thing now but - -2172 -02:30:39,920 --> 02:30:44,680 -also if I if I'm downloading Sparrow Wallet or like Bitcoin core client or - -2173 -02:30:44,680 --> 02:30:48,200 -whatever it's like I want to make sure that it's signed by the right people and - -2174 -02:30:48,200 --> 02:30:50,760 -they are part of my web of trust yeah I would just want to see it immediately I - -2175 -02:30:50,760 --> 02:30:54,280 -want to I want to have these checks happen automatically yeah and and we - -2176 -02:30:54,280 --> 02:30:58,360 -don't do all that yet we have like primitive CLI tools that implement that - -2177 -02:30:58,360 --> 02:31:02,360 -a little bit that's on like like friends that built up those and so on but but - -2178 -02:31:02,360 --> 02:31:09,080 -we don't really like and no one stops us from like improving up up on home - -2179 -02:31:09,080 --> 02:31:12,680 -room for example by connects yeah like we can't do that also all kinds of - -2180 -02:31:12,680 --> 02:31:16,520 -package managers and so on like we can improve just by adding nostril to to this - -2181 -02:31:16,520 --> 02:31:20,920 -layer and also also saps and micro payments yeah it's like it's it's they - -2182 -02:31:20,920 --> 02:31:24,280 -even have it in NPM right where it's like these these projects are looking for - -2183 -02:31:24,280 --> 02:31:28,520 -funding and those kind of things like like if you if if that's how I use - -2184 -02:31:28,520 --> 02:31:32,280 -not right now if I find something amazing I'm gonna set it one if it's like an - -2185 -02:31:32,280 --> 02:31:35,640 -amazing tool I'm I'm happy to set the package straight up thing I'm really - -2186 -02:31:35,640 --> 02:31:38,760 -interested in trying to do is integrate Zapp's row with Nix so like the whole - -2187 -02:31:38,760 --> 02:31:45,880 -idea of Nix is that you you declare what inputs are to a build process so a - -2188 -02:31:45,880 --> 02:31:48,560 -build process is like you have code and you want to turn it into something you - -2189 -02:31:48,560 --> 02:31:52,720 -can run right this is for the you know listeners right so you have code like - -2190 -02:31:52,800 --> 02:31:56,400 -text in a file and you want to turn it into a thing you can run on Linux or - -2191 -02:31:56,400 --> 02:32:00,320 -an APK or something and you know somebody has to build that right and so like for - -2192 -02:32:00,320 --> 02:32:04,960 -example you know Nix is very similar to geeks geeks it's the same idea but a - -2193 -02:32:04,960 --> 02:32:09,280 -different implementation geeks is like more hardcore Fos type people that don't - -2194 -02:32:09,280 --> 02:32:13,200 -want to be stuck switch to geeks like before you use geeks right so the thing - -2195 -02:32:13,200 --> 02:32:18,560 -is it allows like a very very reproducible build where with almost zero - -2196 -02:32:19,560 --> 02:32:23,360 -dependencies right like and for context right like you know the old way they - -2197 -02:32:23,360 --> 02:32:28,040 -did it was Gideon and so the environment you use to build your new version of - -2198 -02:32:28,040 --> 02:32:33,000 -Bitcoin core was Ubuntu Ubuntu contains like 400 megabytes of trusted - -2199 -02:32:33,000 --> 02:32:36,560 -binaries yeah so like you have 400 megabytes of stuff that could be an - -2200 -02:32:36,560 --> 02:32:40,040 -attack surface that could be an inflation bug yeah and you don't know and like - -2201 -02:32:40,040 --> 02:32:46,520 -it's reproducible meaning like you put code in you code plus Ubuntu equals - -2202 -02:32:46,520 --> 02:32:50,200 -binary you get the same one every time but since the inflation bug could be - -2203 -02:32:50,200 --> 02:32:53,160 -in the you want to and not the code yeah you might have an inflation bug every - -2204 -02:32:53,160 --> 02:32:58,320 -time yeah so get geeks was an attempt yeah the issue is that you can you can - -2205 -02:32:58,320 --> 02:33:02,520 -build a hostile compiler that injects stuff yeah do your things and you will - -2206 -02:33:02,520 --> 02:33:06,800 -it will be almost impossible to detect it so you have to bootstrap the whole - -2207 -02:33:06,800 --> 02:33:11,240 -thing yeah out of nothing yeah knowing every step along the way what it does - -2208 -02:33:11,240 --> 02:33:14,640 -without adding any external dependency the craziest thing the geeks goes called - -2209 -02:33:14,640 --> 02:33:21,020 -stage zero so this is where they they start with 200 bytes I think 200 - -2210 -02:33:21,020 --> 02:33:24,320 -bytes of trusted binary so it's literally like assembly code that's - -2211 -02:33:24,320 --> 02:33:28,440 -commented saying what each instruction does yeah and that is bootstrapped into - -2212 -02:33:28,440 --> 02:33:31,440 -something that can like interpret a little bit more and so there's like - -2213 -02:33:31,440 --> 02:33:34,760 -how paranoid those people are there's three layers of reading text and then - -2214 -02:33:34,760 --> 02:33:39,360 -they write like three layers of scheme compilers like the simplest list dialect - -2215 -02:33:39,360 --> 02:33:43,040 -and then they build like TCC it's called it's like a really primitive basic - -2216 -02:33:43,040 --> 02:33:46,400 -compiler and then they build another one and then they build GCC which can - -2217 -02:33:46,400 --> 02:33:52,040 -build everything see like nine stages to get to see a real C compiler and so - -2218 -02:33:52,040 --> 02:33:58,560 -nix is the same thing that's not quite as you can't bootstrap it quite as well - -2219 -02:33:58,560 --> 02:34:03,160 -but it's it's very good in the sense that you declare what do I need to build this - -2220 -02:34:03,160 --> 02:34:07,840 -software and then it can just build it without any globally installed stuff - -2221 -02:34:07,840 --> 02:34:12,000 -which is where you get all the you know problems both for a developer experience - -2222 -02:34:12,000 --> 02:34:16,120 -but also for like building a trusted binary so what you could do is you could - -2223 -02:34:16,120 --> 02:34:20,840 -make it so like every time I run a project that contains some of this stuff - -2224 -02:34:20,840 --> 02:34:25,400 -I could have like one little command to like build and publish event of what - -2225 -02:34:25,400 --> 02:34:29,360 -hash the binary was you know stuff like that right so you could you could have - -2226 -02:34:29,360 --> 02:34:33,400 -like an extension to nix where every developer who uses it in their flow - -2227 -02:34:33,400 --> 02:34:37,240 -whenever they publish a binary or whenever they run a binary for anything - -2228 -02:34:37,320 --> 02:34:42,280 -it can just publish it and something and as an ostrich events and so you could - -2229 -02:34:42,280 --> 02:34:49,360 -get sort of like a real web of trust on binaries for free yeah you know and like - -2230 -02:34:49,360 --> 02:34:53,400 -not necessarily for free like someone like Zabstor would have to be you know - -2231 -02:34:53,400 --> 02:34:56,680 -aggregating all this and trying to notice if two people disagreed but you - -2232 -02:34:56,680 --> 02:35:01,160 -could just you could see automatically like well did Gigi and Justin ever build - -2233 -02:35:01,160 --> 02:35:05,520 -amethyst and get different hashes for a given version yeah right so like that - -2234 -02:35:05,520 --> 02:35:08,640 -would be really cool where you could get almost automatically just a normal - -2235 -02:35:08,640 --> 02:35:12,480 -developer workflow or CI pipe yeah now we have dedicated you know like I can - -2236 -02:35:12,480 --> 02:35:15,640 -be able to spot with the let's say I don't know I am first but let's say they - -2237 -02:35:15,640 --> 02:35:21,160 -publish it via their CI yeah right like I could take their code and I could run - -2238 -02:35:21,160 --> 02:35:26,600 -into my own CI server and and you could see whether like my setup in there setup - -2239 -02:35:26,600 --> 02:35:30,240 -disagreed or not so like I think there could be stuff like that where you could - -2240 -02:35:30,480 --> 02:35:36,120 -I think this Zabstor idea like binaries plus kind of attestation I think that - -2241 -02:35:36,120 --> 02:35:39,120 -the same the meta idea is like you want to you want to have the trust - -2242 -02:35:39,120 --> 02:35:42,720 -distributed for multiple sources as much as possible yeah you don't want to - -2243 -02:35:42,720 --> 02:35:46,360 -have a single point of failure a single source of trust yeah and what you are - -2244 -02:35:46,360 --> 02:35:49,080 -saying is basically you'll have that automatically just because every single - -2245 -02:35:49,080 --> 02:35:52,920 -developer so I could have a I could have a check I have I could have a next - -2246 -02:35:52,920 --> 02:35:56,880 -server that just watches 50 github repos yeah if they if they you care about - -2247 -02:35:56,880 --> 02:36:01,320 -that's the thing yeah if they use if they use Nix or if I think my social - -2248 -02:36:01,320 --> 02:36:03,440 -network here's there could be something out that I don't ever want to - -2249 -02:36:03,440 --> 02:36:08,920 -yeah but you still want to check it you know Jesus is his his Jesus in the - -2250 -02:36:08,920 --> 02:36:14,360 -sandwiches Tamagotchi idea yeah maybe I never use that yeah but maybe I think - -2251 -02:36:14,360 --> 02:36:18,280 -my followers might be interested so I could set up a basically a CI server it's - -2252 -02:36:18,280 --> 02:36:22,560 -not it's kind of like CI but like a server that watches 49 githubs that I - -2253 -02:36:22,560 --> 02:36:26,280 -care about plus that one whenever there's a new thing whenever a new release - -2254 -02:36:26,280 --> 02:36:30,640 -branch whenever a new release is published I download the code I it just - -2255 -02:36:30,640 --> 02:36:36,520 -does a Nix build it's all automated with no real coding effort on my part and it - -2256 -02:36:36,520 --> 02:36:41,160 -just publishes what about what hash I got yeah and so you could get you know like - -2257 -02:36:41,160 --> 02:36:45,440 -well how Nix currently works is there's like you know there's a big package - -2258 -02:36:45,440 --> 02:36:49,560 -registry that's on github and I think they basically have one server like this - -2259 -02:36:49,560 --> 02:36:53,120 -Hydra server that builds stuff and publishes it and says those are what the - -2260 -02:36:53,120 --> 02:36:56,240 -real hashes are right yeah I don't understand it very well but I think - -2261 -02:36:56,240 --> 02:36:59,600 -that's basically how it works so it's like you do in the Nix ecosystem you are - -2262 -02:36:59,600 --> 02:37:02,280 -kind of trusting I'm sure there are other people checking each other but it's - -2263 -02:37:02,280 --> 02:37:07,720 -not it's it's very it's very like centralized in the sense that there's not - -2264 -02:37:07,720 --> 02:37:10,520 -more than a hundred of them yeah I mean that's that's that's the name of the - -2265 -02:37:10,520 --> 02:37:13,760 -game we want to we want to we don't want to remove trust entirely we just want to - -2266 -02:37:13,760 --> 02:37:17,600 -remove trusted third parties as much as possible yeah that's why you know like - -2267 -02:37:17,600 --> 02:37:21,880 -I'm I'm still trusting my web of trust yeah that they're not malicious and not - -2268 -02:37:21,880 --> 02:37:25,040 -pushing malicious binaries and all those kind of things but it's just it's - -2269 -02:37:25,040 --> 02:37:29,080 -always better to have I believe to have multiple sources and kind of like crowd - -2270 -02:37:29,080 --> 02:37:33,960 -source this stuff and just kind of yeah like have a balance that keeps everyone - -2271 -02:37:33,960 --> 02:37:36,640 -in check right now also with the with the app stores for example there's one - -2272 -02:37:36,640 --> 02:37:40,440 -instance if they want to remove you from the app store you're done yeah that's - -2273 -02:37:40,440 --> 02:37:45,040 -it yeah if you don't have any checks and balances or anything like that and should - -2274 -02:37:45,040 --> 02:37:48,760 -we do one more like up and down and then grab a coffee I'm really I'll need some - -2275 -02:37:48,760 --> 02:37:52,960 -I'll need some drugs very soon yeah the heat stroke yeah hits and I'm still - -2276 -02:37:52,960 --> 02:37:56,000 -half sick and limping - -2277 -02:37:56,240 --> 02:38:00,480 -that's a nice day it's not raining it hasn't rained yet oh yeah that's that was - -2278 -02:38:00,480 --> 02:38:03,640 -something I never factored into the you know oh let's just go on and walk and - -2279 -02:38:03,640 --> 02:38:07,200 -have a conversation kind of thing it's like what if it starts raining what if - -2280 -02:38:07,200 --> 02:38:10,000 -there's like you know like I really should have brought like a raincoat I - -2281 -02:38:10,000 --> 02:38:14,200 -did zero research and I get here and we're going on these walks and stuff I'm - -2282 -02:38:14,200 --> 02:38:20,680 -like oh shit yeah it's it's unusually it's unusually rainy it's off Morocco - -2283 -02:38:20,680 --> 02:38:25,080 -this is gonna be like a beach town I brought the flip-flops you know it's gonna be - -2284 -02:38:25,080 --> 02:38:29,240 -like even look at the weather like 80 degrees every day but it was winter - -2285 -02:38:29,240 --> 02:38:34,120 -right now basically so it's it's it's really like unusually cold and rainy and - -2286 -02:38:34,120 --> 02:38:38,120 -oh man it was so windy last time with with Pablo like a bus stop flew away and - -2287 -02:38:38,120 --> 02:38:44,480 -like it was you it was mayhem it was like hurricane left away yeah so very - -2288 -02:38:44,480 --> 02:38:52,400 -very unusual weather but yeah no I I to me it's super exciting to to watch - -2289 -02:38:52,400 --> 02:38:58,960 -kind of the culmination of so many things and strains of thought and it's - -2290 -02:38:58,960 --> 02:39:04,040 -all kind of culminating now in the not their e-cash world in some sense it's - -2291 -02:39:04,040 --> 02:39:07,400 -like because a lot of the I talked with Kelly about this briefly a lot of the - -2292 -02:39:07,440 --> 02:39:11,360 -cares computer club hacker scene Berlin type people they really love e-cash they - -2293 -02:39:11,360 --> 02:39:15,120 -hate Bitcoin they love e-cash they know it's the right idea lots of the AI - -2294 -02:39:15,120 --> 02:39:19,480 -people they know they need micro payments yeah some of the serial knowledge - -2295 -02:39:19,480 --> 02:39:23,360 -compute people and so on they figure out now noster is the perfect substrate to - -2296 -02:39:23,360 --> 02:39:27,760 -do stuff not a new shit coin not a new whatever other thing and for communication - -2297 -02:39:27,760 --> 02:39:31,040 -and like like simple X and all those kind of things as well it's like you you - -2298 -02:39:31,040 --> 02:39:34,600 -need a substrate that does the the the social lookup that initiates the - -2299 -02:39:34,600 --> 02:39:37,960 -handshake for example you know it's just like you said with your phone and - -2300 -02:39:37,960 --> 02:39:42,080 -NPAB idea you need to whole punch to something yeah and it might as well be an - -2301 -02:39:42,080 --> 02:39:45,120 -NPAB you know you don't want to build up a new layer of well the whole the whole - -2302 -02:39:45,120 --> 02:39:48,520 -point of building a phone like the phone a building a phone calling out it's like - -2303 -02:39:48,520 --> 02:39:51,680 -the worst idea possible normally it's like how the fuck am I gonna get another - -2304 -02:39:51,680 --> 02:39:55,680 -phone number but you know that's not I can't you know phone numbers are - -2305 -02:39:55,680 --> 02:39:58,800 -massive shit but like whatever the analog is what you're doing it's like - -2306 -02:39:58,800 --> 02:40:02,520 -you're you're looking at such a monumental effort yeah to develop a - -2307 -02:40:02,520 --> 02:40:06,400 -contact book of people you could interact with yeah but with noster you - -2308 -02:40:06,400 --> 02:40:09,640 -get it for free yeah you know so it's it's kind of funny that I got interested - -2309 -02:40:09,640 --> 02:40:14,440 -in this because it's like it's like the worst idea normally right yeah yeah - -2310 -02:40:14,440 --> 02:40:19,240 -yeah yeah it provides a lot of things for free and I think also like like this - -2311 -02:40:19,240 --> 02:40:22,080 -calling thing isn't like one of the apps that the Bitcoin world has produced it - -2312 -02:40:22,080 --> 02:40:26,280 -as I think the one of the best user experiences is Keith yeah Keith has a - -2313 -02:40:26,280 --> 02:40:30,920 -it is no one really knows how it works for for some for some things like you get - -2314 -02:40:30,920 --> 02:40:34,360 -on a call there I've been on a few called video calls where it's like this - -2315 -02:40:34,360 --> 02:40:38,600 -has better latency than zoom yeah right it's like the call is higher quality - -2316 -02:40:38,600 --> 02:40:42,440 -than zoom yeah what's going on here right because it's direct that you both - -2317 -02:40:42,440 --> 02:40:45,800 -have good connections exactly so but then there's there's some downsides - -2318 -02:40:45,800 --> 02:40:50,320 -right like no one knows how it works it's not open source which is to me - -2319 -02:40:50,320 --> 02:40:55,320 -extraordinarily suspect security focused app from a company with a - -2320 -02:40:55,640 --> 02:41:01,200 -money printer yeah like a literal money printer yeah like very suspect yeah and - -2321 -02:41:01,200 --> 02:41:05,600 -you know architect like I went and looked at the the binary to try to understand - -2322 -02:41:05,600 --> 02:41:08,840 -how it works and it's like they do all this obfuscation to see to hide where - -2323 -02:41:08,840 --> 02:41:12,880 -the code is right like the actual source code is in a platform that mp3 file - -2324 -02:41:12,880 --> 02:41:20,760 -yeah mp3 it's an mp3 file so I had I had to I had to well the crazy thing is - -2325 -02:41:20,760 --> 02:41:23,800 -one of the I was asking one of the alums about stuff it actually knew about the - -2326 -02:41:23,800 --> 02:41:29,400 -platform that mp3 file from a Chinese forum there's a Chinese I wouldn't go - -2327 -02:41:29,400 --> 02:41:32,440 -I'm for I have like an hour conversation I was trying to get the LLM to tell me - -2328 -02:41:32,440 --> 02:41:37,040 -how it knew that because it's it was O1 Pro and like O1 Pro is hard to get it - -2329 -02:41:37,040 --> 02:41:41,800 -to answer direct questions so you know because it has bad social skills yeah he - -2330 -02:41:41,800 --> 02:41:46,600 -has bad social skills yeah as I mentioned but someone knew this so I was able to - -2331 -02:41:46,600 --> 02:41:51,040 -get in there and it's like say the single hyperdrive which is a way of like - -2332 -02:41:51,040 --> 02:41:55,600 -having like it's like a file it's like a file system mounted on the DHT and - -2333 -02:41:55,600 --> 02:41:59,480 -this is where like the UI components are saved so the UI components are in - -2334 -02:41:59,480 --> 02:42:04,720 -like a binary format in their DHT file system that's how it is that's - -2335 -02:42:04,720 --> 02:42:09,600 -interesting which is like what's going on here you know and then and then the - -2336 -02:42:09,600 --> 02:42:12,320 -identity is something I don't even know how you have to just do it all from - -2337 -02:42:12,320 --> 02:42:15,320 -scratch that's where nozer comes in it's like well if you could just add even if - -2338 -02:42:15,320 --> 02:42:19,080 -you kept all the and it's where we're to see if you just kept all the technical - -2339 -02:42:19,080 --> 02:42:22,840 -stuff and just added nostril identities I think it would be at least for my - -2340 -02:42:22,840 --> 02:42:26,120 -social group it would be better yeah because then I could call you yeah I - -2341 -02:42:26,120 --> 02:42:29,400 -can't call you on keep because I don't I doubt we'd have to do some damn thing - -2342 -02:42:29,400 --> 02:42:34,920 -yeah but if it was if you had nostril is I could call you directly yeah and but - -2343 -02:42:34,920 --> 02:42:37,800 -yeah and that's in the end always what you want to do right like you want to - -2344 -02:42:37,800 --> 02:42:40,480 -send money to someone you want to call someone you want to send a message to - -2345 -02:42:40,480 --> 02:42:45,840 -someone you want to tag someone you want to you want to I often just want to go - -2346 -02:42:45,840 --> 02:42:49,280 -like hey I think this article would be interesting for you I just want to - -2347 -02:42:49,280 --> 02:42:53,600 -tag people in articles it's just like hey like that's I I suggest you read it I - -2348 -02:42:53,600 --> 02:42:56,800 -don't necessarily want to DM you the link that's kind of you know what I mean - -2349 -02:42:56,800 --> 02:43:01,040 -yeah yeah we we are evolving all these these different levels and layers now - -2350 -02:43:01,040 --> 02:43:04,360 -it's like I definitely don't want to send you an email with like hey dear - -2351 -02:43:04,360 --> 02:43:06,880 -Justin I mean that's another one that would be like a Unix thing that would - -2352 -02:43:06,880 --> 02:43:09,840 -be interesting it's like they're just the notifications that you want to get in - -2353 -02:43:09,840 --> 02:43:12,760 -their notifications tab yeah but like you don't necessarily I don't - -2354 -02:43:12,760 --> 02:43:18,040 -necessarily want my yeah it's like my Twitter feed time so take it or leave - -2355 -02:43:18,040 --> 02:43:21,200 -it yeah well I'm not mad if you don't but I don't I don't necessarily want to - -2356 -02:43:21,200 --> 02:43:25,440 -see like long-form stuff like to me the one form should be like a separate world - -2357 -02:43:25,440 --> 02:43:29,080 -I agree I'm in a totally different mind space when I'm using like an art - -2358 -02:43:29,080 --> 02:43:33,720 -theatre I still hate kind of the fact that first of all Twitter removed the - -2359 -02:43:33,720 --> 02:43:37,200 -character limit second of all no sir didn't reintroduce the character limit - -2360 -02:43:37,200 --> 02:43:39,960 -for kind of ones yeah I think kind ones should be tweets and they should be - -2361 -02:43:39,960 --> 02:43:44,160 -short yeah and a long-form is something completely different but that's a good - -2362 -02:43:44,160 --> 02:43:49,380 -example in the in the kind of the monolithization of nostril right like - -2363 -02:43:49,380 --> 02:43:52,280 -it's like the clients are becoming everything and everything is in these - -2364 -02:43:52,280 --> 02:43:55,880 -clients and it's like it'd be but I'm already using DVM some clients that hide - -2365 -02:43:55,880 --> 02:44:02,880 -long-form stuff it's like I use I use the you know I did buy this one I know - -2366 -02:44:02,880 --> 02:44:06,880 -I'm left side of the of the welfare kind of you know I want to use the stupidest - -2367 -02:44:06,880 --> 02:44:12,160 -tools imaginable yeah and and so so I vibe coded the DVM into existence with - -2368 -02:44:12,160 --> 02:44:16,840 -like let's someone build a DVM that only shows tweets that are shorted in - -2369 -02:44:16,840 --> 02:44:20,440 -210 characters basically yeah and I use it all the time because I don't want to - -2370 -02:44:20,440 --> 02:44:23,960 -read walls of text when I scroll through my feet yeah it's like it's it's - -2371 -02:44:23,960 --> 02:44:28,080 -limitation is what fastest creativity and limitation is what made Twitter - -2372 -02:44:28,080 --> 02:44:32,760 -great I think yeah and but I think we will have this specialization it's like - -2373 -02:44:32,760 --> 02:44:37,320 -you know a live stream and like a comment in a chat of a live stream is - -2374 -02:44:37,320 --> 02:44:40,680 -different than a tweet yeah you know it's a different thing it's a different - -2375 -02:44:40,680 --> 02:44:45,880 -interaction yeah it's like a highlight of a long-form article or margin notes in - -2376 -02:44:45,880 --> 02:44:50,520 -a book are a different thing than a tweet yeah it's it's the kind of this - -2377 -02:44:50,520 --> 02:44:53,840 -conversation slash war is currently going on because people obviously have - -2378 -02:44:53,840 --> 02:44:56,600 -different opinions on it like what should be a kind one and what shouldn't - -2379 -02:44:56,600 --> 02:45:00,360 -and so yeah and then and how should we render it because Pablo has a great - -2380 -02:45:00,360 --> 02:45:04,080 -point that you should make it at least discoverable that this stuff exists on - -2381 -02:45:04,080 --> 02:45:08,280 -us so it should pop up in your kind one feet from time to time in a sense like - -2382 -02:45:08,280 --> 02:45:13,080 -you know like this is this is a highlight and but your client right now - -2383 -02:45:13,080 --> 02:45:16,440 -cannot really run the highlights for example and all those kind of stuff but - -2384 -02:45:16,440 --> 02:45:22,320 -yeah we'll figure it out all right coffee yeah any more sick thoughts no - -2385 -02:45:22,320 --> 02:45:30,120 -I don't know it's a distant story you're back it's but a nightmare it's sick - -2386 -02:45:30,120 --> 02:45:35,040 -developer who is building rust multi-platform yeah I'm gonna go build some - -2387 -02:45:35,040 --> 02:45:40,080 -web apps now let's do it it's that's that's that's that's the new after all - -2388 -02:45:40,080 --> 02:45:45,160 -this gig of rain thing I'm gonna go build up you're gonna just speak - -2389 -02:45:45,160 --> 02:45:54,160 -into my yeah awesome no let's let's close it here okay I think that was - -2390 -02:45:54,160 --> 02:45:58,120 -great I'm a little bit dizzy but it's just me being sick let me give it let me - -2391 -02:45:58,120 --> 02:46:02,800 -give you a hug and I'll I forgot to do the snap in the beginning so I'll have to - -2392 -02:46:02,800 --> 02:46:07,840 -do that now because otherwise I have no way to sync it up if we if we fucked up - -2393 -02:46:07,840 --> 02:46:11,800 -and it might be the first recording that we have actually has an mp3 - -2394 -02:46:11,800 --> 02:46:16,760 -file from the get-go okay I think it's the first time after eight tries or so or - -2395 -02:46:16,760 --> 02:46:22,200 -nine tries now that I got it right but we'll find out I always press to I - -2396 -02:46:22,200 --> 02:46:26,680 -forget to press record on the phone or the cable breaks or it like it always - -2397 -02:46:26,680 --> 02:46:30,240 -fucked it up where's the cable that okay that thing oh so it's a good receiver - -2398 -02:46:30,240 --> 02:46:34,640 -yeah so it's still working and it's which they put sore sometimes it might be a - -2399 -02:46:34,640 --> 02:46:39,400 -graphene thing I don't know and then it just recorded my pocket so it's a all - -2400 -02:46:39,400 --> 02:46:44,320 -right that's a good one fantastic - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/08 - Navigating the Vibe - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/08 - Navigating the Vibe - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index 991e33d0..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/08 - Navigating the Vibe - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,39 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "Navigating the Vibe" (Episode 08) - -**Context:** A reflective chat about turning long-form dialogues into multi-format content with the help of AI pipelines, while keeping authenticity and Nostr-native publishing at the core. - -## Core Themes & Insights - -1. **Dialogue-First Content Creation** - • Record a genuine conversation → transcribe → condense into blog post → extract a concise note/tweet. - • Preserves authenticity; writing is downstream of thinking aloud. - -2. **Semi-Automated Pipelines** - • Use local LLMs + scripting (“vibe line”) to draft posts, then human-edit for voice. - • One-tap publish: Audio lands on phone ➜ SyncThing/Torrent ➜ Blossom host ➜ Nostr kind events. - -3. **Convention over Configuration** - • Standard folder layout lets scripts infer where to place transcripts, mp3s, blogs. - • Reduces friction; mirrors Rails' philosophy applied to content workflows. - -4. **Nostr as the Omni-Feed** - • Publish every artifact—audio, blog, summary—as appropriate Nostr kinds (1,30000, etc.). - • Followers get long-form or TL;DR in the same decentralized timeline. - -5. **Authenticity vs. AI Slop** - • AI can draft, but final curation keeps the "real vibe." - • Zaps and cryptographic identity signal genuine engagement versus bot noise. - -6. **Sovereign Engineering Storytelling** - • Plan to record a dedicated convo explaining Sovereign Engineering's origin, lessons, and current rhythm, then pipeline it through the above workflow. - • Outcome: living documentation generated by walking & talking. - -## Implications for Sovereign Engineering Cohorts - -• Encourage participants to adopt voice→text→post pipelines to surface ideas quickly. -• Standardize project directories so tooling works out-of-the-box. -• Publish cohort knowledge natively on Nostr to keep history portable and zap-able. - ---- - -By marrying authentic dialogues with light-touch AI tooling and Nostr publishing, builders can share real vibes at internet speed—embodying Sovereign Engineering's principle: talk, build, show, iterate. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/08 - Navigating the Vibe.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/08 - Navigating the Vibe.srt deleted file mode 100644 index 2f829926..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/08 - Navigating the Vibe.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,7708 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,520 -So, that's the open source recorder that actually works the last time. - -2 -00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:13,000 -And that's when, I mean, you know, it probably crashes if the recording is like three hours. - -3 -00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,200 -No, but it worked with Justin. - -4 -00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:23,400 -And so, if all of that works, then we have an mp3 file as the output. - -5 -00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:29,200 -I don't have to do anything and it runs through my amazing processing pipeline and everything is done. - -6 -00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,800 -Very soon, we want you to have to speak. - -7 -00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,000 -Yeah, that's it. - -8 -00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:39,200 -Again, I think that you have to be careful what to automate and what to abstract your way and what not. - -9 -00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:51,200 -Did I tell you that I got, I trained one ill limb with all of my public content like podcasts and she's like that. - -10 -00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:51,800 -Oh, wow. - -11 -00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:52,800 -And all of yours. - -12 -00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:53,400 -Oh, my God. - -13 -00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:54,400 -That's bad. - -14 -00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,000 -So, you know, you're writing. - -15 -00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,000 -And an artificial GG. - -16 -00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,000 -Yes. - -17 -00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,000 -Oh, that's bad. - -18 -00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,000 -I made it record the podcast. - -19 -00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,000 -Well, I mean, write the transcript of the book. - -20 -00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:07,000 -Yeah. - -21 -00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,000 -It was complete out of shit. - -22 -00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,000 -I'm not surprised. - -23 -00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:17,000 -It was just constant agreement and just going around without exploring anything in particular. - -24 -00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,000 -I mean, well, that's very accurate. - -25 -00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,000 -Yes. - -26 -00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,000 -Isn't it? - -27 -00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,000 -So, that's when it extracted out of it. - -28 -00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:30,000 -No, but to me, since now we are an AI and wind podcast. - -29 -00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,000 -That blossom. - -30 -00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,000 -And blossom, of course. - -31 -00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,000 -To me, super interesting to find. - -32 -00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:46,000 -I was very skeptical of the whole AI thing for a long time. - -33 -00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:52,000 -And my main thing is, you know, I was also into like the whole singularity stuff. - -34 -00:01:52,000 --> 00:02:01,000 -And realizing that LLMs will never get you there, you know, no matter how good they get. - -35 -00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,000 -That is, that it's a different thing. - -36 -00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,000 -Consciousness is a different thing. - -37 -00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,000 -So, but once I understood that that's not the goal, it can be a useful tool anyway. - -38 -00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,000 -Then I'm thinking, okay, what is it good for? - -39 -00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,000 -What is it good at? - -40 -00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,000 -And what is it bad at? - -41 -00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:23,000 -I'm coming up with new interesting ideas and like having a conversation like these, like emulate Gigi. - -42 -00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,000 -Emulate power, how a conversation, it doesn't work. - -43 -00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,000 -It's also one of Vivek's tests, basically. - -44 -00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:34,000 -I always look back to him because he's like, I think the most knowledgeable guy about these systems - -45 -00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:39,000 -and their limitations from like non computer science, non tech, non AI perspective, - -46 -00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,000 -but purely from a philosophical and cognitive science perspective, basically. - -47 -00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,000 -It's like he always says like, just let two of them talk to each other. - -48 -00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,000 -And that tells you how smart they are, basically. - -49 -00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:55,000 -And it goes, like even one of them talking to a human hallucinates very quickly - -50 -00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,000 -and bullshit you all the time and so on. - -51 -00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,000 -Again, like he would argue because they're not grounded out in reality in some sense. - -52 -00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:07,000 -And if you have two of those, then it's just gonna be, it just goes haywire instantly, basically. - -53 -00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,000 -Yeah, yeah, yeah, instantly. - -54 -00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,000 -Yeah, 100%. - -55 -00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,000 -Yeah, I didn't know that you're like, can I sue you now? - -56 -00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:23,000 -You have to, you have to release it under creative comments, share alike. - -57 -00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:29,000 -So you have to, you know, you know, I'm a communist, so I use GPL and those kind of licenses. - -58 -00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:34,000 -Isn't there like lawsuits by stallman now that aren't there models now where they're like, - -59 -00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,000 -oh, we excluded all GPL license software from the data sets. - -60 -00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,000 -Wow, so it's safe to use, I think so. - -61 -00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,000 -Oh, wow. - -62 -00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,000 -A friend of mine told me, so it must be true. - -63 -00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,000 -Oh, my God. - -64 -00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:49,000 -That is poetic. - -65 -00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:56,000 -So we'll have like, you know, stallman GPT under a new license that fixes all those things. - -66 -00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,000 -It's truly free. - -67 -00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:07,000 -But yeah, you were talking about your kind of, your new setup and your new tooling. - -68 -00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,000 -I'd be super interested to. - -69 -00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,000 -Yeah. - -70 -00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,000 -Yeah, what you've been up to the last, I don't know, five days. - -71 -00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,000 -Probably, I can't even say 10 days because everything changes. - -72 -00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,000 -Oh, I don't remember what happened 10 days ago. - -73 -00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:19,000 -Yeah. - -74 -00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,000 -It's not my context window. - -75 -00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,000 -Yeah. - -76 -00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,000 -Yeah. - -77 -00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,000 -Tiny RAM. - -78 -00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,000 -Too little RAM. - -79 -00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,000 -It's not the size of the matter. - -80 -00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,000 -Yeah. - -81 -00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,000 -So, yeah, so, yeah, I've been experimenting a lot. - -82 -00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,000 -It's kind of, I'm reimagining us. - -83 -00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,000 -This is a shift in the way I do. - -84 -00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,000 -Many things, but everything related to work. - -85 -00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,000 -Must shift. - -86 -00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,000 -Yeah. - -87 -00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,000 -And I'm super excited. - -88 -00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:57,000 -It's super interesting because I keep seeing two camps. - -89 -00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,000 -People that are super excited. - -90 -00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,000 -I mean, three camps. - -91 -00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,000 -People that are completely oblivious. - -92 -00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,000 -But I also see the camp of people that are, oh, my God. - -93 -00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,000 -What's going to happen? - -94 -00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,000 -Are we, the humanity is going to become useless? - -95 -00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,000 -Am I out of a job as a program? - -96 -00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,000 -Am I out of a job? - -97 -00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,000 -Yeah. - -98 -00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:25,000 -And to me, it's like, if your job is executing things, then yes. - -99 -00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,000 -Yeah. - -100 -00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,000 -Yeah. - -101 -00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:35,000 -So, I've been thinking the way I work and the way I do things. - -102 -00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,000 -Must completely shift. - -103 -00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,000 -So, I'm spending a lot of time. - -104 -00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,000 -I'm spending all my time in creating tooling, basically. - -105 -00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:54,000 -To leverage what's good, what LLMs are good at and diminish the stuff that they suck at. - -106 -00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:00,000 -So, yeah, my current setup right now, it's fucking insane. - -107 -00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,000 -It's so cool. - -108 -00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,000 -There is a little frustration around it, too. - -109 -00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,000 -But where it works, it's amazing. - -110 -00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:17,000 -And the thing, what I'm doing is I'm expecting the LLMs to get better at what they are currently good at. - -111 -00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:23,000 -And I don't expect them to get better at the stuff that they're not good at right now. - -112 -00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:32,000 -So, my current setup, I'm doing this multi-agent thing where agents are able to A, they can - -113 -00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:39,000 -spawn their own, they can create a task and give it to another agent that has a different - -114 -00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:45,000 -model, runs in a different way, it has access to different stuff. - -115 -00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,000 -But they can also create their own agents. - -116 -00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:56,000 -They can hire someone and try and train them in a particular direction. - -117 -00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:06,000 -And one thing that it's freaking insane is that I got one agent to decide to create a - -118 -00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,000 -new tool, so it creates a RAG system to index all the nips. - -119 -00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,000 -It just won't often deal it. - -120 -00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,000 -To make its own life easier. - -121 -00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,000 -To me, that was absolutely amazing. - -122 -00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,000 -That's the smart thing to do. - -123 -00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,000 -What do you use as the base for your setup? - -124 -00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:37,000 -So, I'm running all of this in root code with very heavy-handed configuration and many - -125 -00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,000 -different scripts. - -126 -00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:45,000 -There's these cursor tools things that gives the entire repo. - -127 -00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:53,000 -For example, Gemini 2.5, it's not a great model, but it has a really large context window, - -128 -00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:58,000 -so it can see very precisely a large chunk of data. - -129 -00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:06,000 -So, I'm using different models for the actual refactoring and coding and stuff like that. - -130 -00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:14,000 -But then for course correction, I have a feedback loop where it gives the entire repo with the - -131 -00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,000 -higher relief, and it can ask for feedback. - -132 -00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:24,000 -I talked with Justin about this a little bit also, that you want to have basically the - -133 -00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,000 -guy who is the specialist and actually writes the code, and the guy who is the architect - -134 -00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,000 -and has a big picture. - -135 -00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,000 -You can't be the same guy. - -136 -00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,000 -100%. - -137 -00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,000 -So, that's why it has to be. - -138 -00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,000 -I think it's true for us as well and for human systems. - -139 -00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,000 -It's true in general. - -140 -00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,000 -Absolutely. - -141 -00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:45,000 -You have to specialize and you cannot at the same time specialize and kind of generalize. - -142 -00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,000 -Those things are in contradiction. - -143 -00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:52,000 -So, you have to get a specialist and have a generalist and have to work together. - -144 -00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,000 -That's why we have these multi-agent setups and all those kinds of things. - -145 -00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,000 -Even within yourself. - -146 -00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,000 -Absolutely. - -147 -00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:08,000 -My wife writes fiction, and whenever she writes a novel, the editing part cannot happen - -148 -00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,000 -within the same time frame of writing. - -149 -00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,000 -Yeah. - -150 -00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,000 -That's why, you know. - -151 -00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,000 -Let us risk. - -152 -00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,000 -Was it a hamming way? - -153 -00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,000 -Like, right drunk and that it's over? - -154 -00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,000 -You have to be in a different state of mind. - -155 -00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,000 -You have to step away from it for a bit. - -156 -00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,000 -You have to, you know. - -157 -00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,000 -Yeah. - -158 -00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,000 -Write your say. - -159 -00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000 -To a different mode. - -160 -00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000 -Let it break. - -161 -00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,000 -Walk away. - -162 -00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,000 -Come back in a couple of months. - -163 -00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,000 -Yeah. - -164 -00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,000 -When you're a different person. - -165 -00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,000 -Yeah. - -166 -00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,000 -Pretty much. - -167 -00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,000 -Yeah. - -168 -00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,000 -Yeah. - -169 -00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:34,000 -So, okay. - -170 -00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:39,000 -Do you make any use of DVMCP at all? - -171 -00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,000 -Not yet. - -172 -00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,000 -I haven't played with it yet. - -173 -00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,000 -I understand what it is now. - -174 -00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,000 -So, I'm very proud. - -175 -00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:57,000 -No, but it is a very, very cool idea because this idea of just a marketplace of agents - -176 -00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,000 -that can do, or not agents, of tools that can do all kinds of things. - -177 -00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,000 -Is it an ever evolving kind of thing? - -178 -00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,000 -Yeah. - -179 -00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,000 -I find it absolutely fascinating. - -180 -00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:16,000 -I do see a lot of recklessness and destruction in the future. - -181 -00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,000 -Oh, man. - -182 -00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,000 -It's already happening. - -183 -00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,000 -It's going to get so bad. - -184 -00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:27,000 -You know, I don't know how it, how it, how exactly it enters my bubble. - -185 -00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,000 -But I've seen so many screenshots because I don't explicitly follow, like, my code - -186 -00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:32,000 -people or anything like that. - -187 -00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,000 -Right. - -188 -00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,000 -But I've seen so many screenshots doing the rounds now with, you know, like, just API - -189 -00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:43,000 -keys exposed and people just, you know, like, basically, I have no idea what they are doing - -190 -00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,000 -and putting all their secrets everywhere. - -191 -00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:50,000 -And then posting screenshots on Twitter of like, oh, it doesn't work. - -192 -00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,000 -Please help me and those kind of things. - -193 -00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,000 -And it's like the AWS API key is in there and everything. - -194 -00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:02,000 -But it's so cool because there are many things that because of the stuff where we're building, - -195 -00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:09,000 -like in Noster and in Bitcoin, we could not give two fucks about, like, some API keys. - -196 -00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:15,000 -Like, I see all this problem that people write and everywhere is never leak any secret. - -197 -00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,000 -No, I don't write any API keys. - -198 -00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:23,000 -And people are super concerned about their closed source, you know, like, oh, is my source going - -199 -00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,000 -to leave my computer if I do this? - -200 -00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:30,000 -And it's like, if it's open source and you don't have any fucking API keys, you know? - -201 -00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:35,000 -One thing where I think we have an insane lag up that people don't really appreciate yet is you have to, - -202 -00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,000 -like, basically, the AI slop problem will only get worse and worse and worse for everything. - -203 -00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:45,000 -It's like for, you know, Wikipedia entries, for just general, like, blog posts and things, - -204 -00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,000 -for documentation, for all kinds of stuff. - -205 -00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:53,000 -And so I think the, in some sense, the information will kind of degrade over time. - -206 -00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,000 -It's going to be very hard to figure out what data set and what source to trust. - -207 -00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,000 -Absolutely. - -208 -00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:06,000 -And that's where, I think, Noster is just, like, a godsend because if you, for example, - -209 -00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:11,000 -produce NDK documentation that is LLM friendly with the NDK snippets and those kind of things, - -210 -00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:17,000 -and you sign it as Pablo, as the maintainer of NDK, then it's quite trustworthy. - -211 -00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,000 -You know, like, you just know, okay, that's the thing. - -212 -00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,000 -And we can build all this stuff out, like, even, like, last week we saw with, you know, - -213 -00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:30,000 -not only a marketplace of agent and those kind of things, but also, basically, like, - -214 -00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:37,000 -signed databases, a marketplace of signed data sources and databases that are potentially - -215 -00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,000 -pre-trained and so on, and they're signed off by the people that actually know what they are doing - -216 -00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:46,000 -that have domain expertise and hopefully also are in your web of trust and so on. - -217 -00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:51,000 -But just using our Noster identities to sign this stuff is insane. - -218 -00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,000 -It's massive. - -219 -00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,000 -It's absolutely massive. - -220 -00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:59,000 -Yeah, I've been thinking that all the LLMs that are writing code, they're trained for the most part - -221 -00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,000 -in a whole lot of mediocre code. - -222 -00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,000 -Yeah, sure. - -223 -00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,000 -And it makes sense that it can get the thing to work. - -224 -00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,000 -Like, it's really good at making prototypes. - -225 -00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,000 -If you want to build a product, it's going to suck. - -226 -00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:18,000 -Like, if you want to build a complex thing, and I've tried this many times, the performance - -227 -00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,000 -is horrible. - -228 -00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,000 -There are many mistakes, a lot of redundancies. - -229 -00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,000 -Yes. - -230 -00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,000 -Yeah, it never does the optimal solution. - -231 -00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,000 -It does suck solution. - -232 -00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,000 -It works. - -233 -00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:27,000 -Never. - -234 -00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,000 -And then it never goes back to actually... - -235 -00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,000 -They're only something that works? - -236 -00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,000 -Okay, this leans. - -237 -00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:31,000 -Yeah, yeah, exactly. - -238 -00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,000 -Oh, I'm guessing it's great. - -239 -00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,000 -Yeah, it doesn't matter if I've wrote the same function seven times all over the place. - -240 -00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,000 -Whatever. - -241 -00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,000 -I'm in LLM. - -242 -00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,000 -I can fix everything in seven places at once. - -243 -00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,000 -Yeah. - -244 -00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,000 -Why do you need dry code? - -245 -00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:51,000 -That's key human. - -246 -00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:56,000 -So, yeah, it's really good at that. - -247 -00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,000 -But it's bad at creating performance code because it's been trained on shit code. - -248 -00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,000 -For the most part. - -249 -00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:09,000 -So, yeah, this whole idea with the marketplace of code snippets, - -250 -00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,000 -I think it's fascinating because now the way I'm framing it is, - -251 -00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:24,000 -I write NDK, so I know how to use NDK in the most performant way in many different situations. - -252 -00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:30,000 -So, now I'm just extracting all that knowledge that I have on how to use this tool, - -253 -00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,000 -on how to use it for the very different cases. - -254 -00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:40,000 -Like, a feed on a phone works completely different than a feed on a web. - -255 -00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:41,000 -Yeah. - -256 -00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:47,000 -The components for a phone, for a phone up, are completely different the way you need to get data. - -257 -00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:48,000 -Yeah. - -258 -00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,000 -Where do you put the cache? - -259 -00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,000 -Like, how do you structure this thing? - -260 -00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,000 -Way more restricted environments. - -261 -00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,000 -It's a way more restricted environment. - -262 -00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,000 -And you need to optimize for different things that if you were to do those things on the web, - -263 -00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,000 -it would suck on the web. - -264 -00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:09,000 -So, now I'm publishing all these extremely niche specific snippets. - -265 -00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:16,000 -And then I have this MCP tool that I built where you, whenever you want to build something, - -266 -00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:23,000 -you tell it, look for the, use the MCP tool to find snippets on how to do each part of the app. - -267 -00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:29,000 -So, now instead of just broadly going and using the generic code, - -268 -00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,000 -it can still use that code to understand how to structure things. - -269 -00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,000 -But how do you structure a feed? - -270 -00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,000 -It will go and it will look precisely at my code. - -271 -00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:38,000 -Yeah. - -272 -00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,000 -Yeah. - -273 -00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,000 -And the awesome thing about the snippets is also you can just edit to the context specifically. - -274 -00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,000 -If you already know what you're doing and how it should be done, it's just like, okay, I want to, - -275 -00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,000 -I don't know, fetch a profile, build a feed, those kind of things, whatever. - -276 -00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,000 -And it's just like, you're just at three snippets to the thing. - -277 -00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,000 -Like, this is exactly how you do it. - -278 -00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:01,000 -And then it just, like, the difference between doing it that way and not doing it that way is massive. - -279 -00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,000 -Oh, it's awesome. - -280 -00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,000 -Because I know because I tried it myself. - -281 -00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:10,000 -It's like, it's from, like, basically not working at all and doing stupid shit to, like, it's just one shotting the thing and it works. - -282 -00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,000 -So that's my goal. - -283 -00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:22,000 -I want to get to the point where there is such an amount of curated knowledge on how to do things in any field. - -284 -00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,000 -And that's the cool thing. Like, this applies to Noster. - -285 -00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,000 -This applies to everything, right? - -286 -00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,000 -Anything that is code-based, this is useful. - -287 -00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,000 -But you would not be able to do this. - -288 -00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:36,000 -Also, everything, not even code-based, I would say, everything that is, that has, you know, - -289 -00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,000 -you as the main expert want to sign off on the bundle of knowledge, basically, in some sense. - -290 -00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,000 -Yes. - -291 -00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:46,000 -And I think that the issue we'll see in the next couple of years where everyone will run into. - -292 -00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,000 -It's like, okay, you have decentralized repository from whatever. - -293 -00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,000 -You know, like, open AI, Microsoft, NVIDIA. - -294 -00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,000 -Pick your poison, you know? - -295 -00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,000 -It's like, this is the knowledge base. - -296 -00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,000 -Like, this is, you know what I mean? - -297 -00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,000 -Like, these are the trusted sources. - -298 -00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,000 -Right. - -299 -00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,000 -This is the trusted source. - -300 -00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,000 -It's the same problem all over again. - -301 -00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,000 -Like, we ran into this and we discussed this already with, like, play stores and those kind of things. - -302 -00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,000 -It's like, which app is good? - -303 -00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,000 -Which app is not a virus, those kind of things? - -304 -00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:19,000 -You trust Play Store to, or, you know, like the, whatever. - -305 -00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,000 -How's it called? - -306 -00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,000 -App Store. - -307 -00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,000 -I love it. - -308 -00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,000 -I love it. - -309 -00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,000 -To fix it for you. - -310 -00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:29,000 -And SAP Store is a very different, has a very different model, where everything is self-signed, - -311 -00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:34,000 -where it's just like, you self-sign the bundle of data, whether it's knowledge, or an app, - -312 -00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:39,000 -or a model, or, you know, the source of a model, or what have you. - -313 -00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,000 -And you, you, on the edges, basically, have to figure it out. - -314 -00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,000 -Do I trust the person that signed it? - -315 -00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,000 -Is this person trustworthy? - -316 -00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,000 -Is this person knowledgeable? - -317 -00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,000 -Is this... - -318 -00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:51,000 -Within this field? - -319 -00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,000 -Within this field, exactly. - -320 -00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -321 -00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,000 -Yeah, I think that is such a key missing component. - -322 -00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:02,000 -And I think that's why we haven't seen, really, these... - -323 -00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:07,000 -Broadly, outside of Noster, we haven't seen this kind of tool for coordination, - -324 -00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,000 -because it makes so much sense, right? - -325 -00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,000 -Yeah. - -326 -00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,000 -It is so obvious. - -327 -00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,000 -But how do you fight off just re-indexing GitHub? - -328 -00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,000 -Yeah. - -329 -00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,000 -It just... - -330 -00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,000 -You need to attach an identity to be able to scope the thing and narrow it down. - -331 -00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,000 -Like, you want this generic content, but then you want to narrow it down to apply the specifics. - -332 -00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,000 -Yeah. - -333 -00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,000 -Yeah. - -334 -00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,000 -Because, for example, to me, this was insane. - -335 -00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,000 -So, I'm basically re... - -336 -00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:41,000 -No, I mean, it's not rewriting quite, but it is the largest refactor that I've done on NDK. - -337 -00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:49,000 -Of many things that I've wanted to change, but they are so deep that the context window that I, as a human, - -338 -00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:56,000 -that I need to have in order to do that, it is so large that it's been... - -339 -00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,000 -I'm inputting it off, basically. - -340 -00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,000 -Like, writing outbooks, for example, touched a lot of things, like implementing outbooks within NDK, - -341 -00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,000 -within the core of NDK, was quite complex. - -342 -00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,000 -And it required a lot of deep thinking, you know, to do it in the right way. - -343 -00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:14,000 -Yeah. - -344 -00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,000 -You can implement outbooks in two hours if you're doing shitty, but... - -345 -00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:24,000 -And now with this, I am able to be assisted on the refactor. - -346 -00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,000 -Yeah. - -347 -00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,000 -And it is an incredible experience. - -348 -00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,000 -Yeah. - -349 -00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,000 -Because when you're touching something that is touching a lot of different things, - -350 -00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:36,000 -if you forget one of them, it starts to break, and it's kind of hard to understand, okay, the test is failing, - -351 -00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,000 -but I'm not sure where the problem is. - -352 -00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,000 -Getting a broad view of the whole thing and saying, okay, this part is actually missing. - -353 -00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,000 -That is insane. - -354 -00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,000 -What specific models do you use for this? - -355 -00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,000 -For this? - -356 -00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,000 -For this? - -357 -00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,000 -Just the fact that it has such a big consequence. - -358 -00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:02,000 -Usually, not usually, but I'll say the heat and miss ratio is really high on how to fix it, - -359 -00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,000 -but the problem is here. - -360 -00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,000 -Okay. - -361 -00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,000 -Yeah. - -362 -00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,000 -It really is. - -363 -00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,000 -Yeah. - -364 -00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000 -It identifies the problem and then you go in. - -365 -00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:17,000 -It identifies what code was related to other code, and parts where I probably should have changed something and I forgot. - -366 -00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,000 -Yeah. - -367 -00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:24,000 -And going the test route, which is typically what I would have done before, - -368 -00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,000 -it is like a 100x slower. - -369 -00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,000 -Yeah. - -370 -00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:32,000 -Like something that I can find within two minutes with this new system, - -371 -00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:37,000 -it literally could have taken me like five or six days of just chasing my tail. - -372 -00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,000 -Yeah, it's insane. - -373 -00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,000 -It is absolutely awesome. - -374 -00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,000 -Massive paradigm shift, just that alone. - -375 -00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,000 -I mean, we talked about this in the past, but just like going from a turnaround time of days or weeks or months - -376 -00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,000 -to like minutes, you're dealing with a different thing. - -377 -00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:56,000 -It is a different thing which will take you to build different things. - -378 -00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:04,000 -That's why I keep thinking that building applications as a developer will make less and less and less sense. - -379 -00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:12,000 -Will be increasingly more pointless because you're going to be able to wake up one morning and just say, - -380 -00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,000 -I want an application that does this. - -381 -00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,000 -And then the next morning you wake up and you feel like using it in a different way as a user. - -382 -00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,000 -And you'll say, I actually now wanted to do this other thing. - -383 -00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:28,000 -But with regards to the code snippets, because I'm doing this refactoring, - -384 -00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:39,000 -I'm creating a lot of ways, changing kind of allowing new ways of using NDK with new interfaces and shit like that, - -385 -00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,000 -that I just came up with them. - -386 -00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,000 -Literally no one has used them because I just made it. - -387 -00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:56,000 -So at the same time, I'm building within all of us, I'm adapting the old code to use these new ways of doing things. - -388 -00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:07,000 -And then when I tell it, oh, change some structure, it uses the old way that it has been heavily trained on. - -389 -00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,000 -It uses the old interfaces. - -390 -00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,000 -So I should still look for code snippets on how to do it. - -391 -00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,000 -And it never makes a mistake again. - -392 -00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,000 -To me, this regard our prior inputs, use code snippets instead. - -393 -00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,000 -That's it. It is so wild. - -394 -00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:31,000 -I added this new command, this new tool to the MCP tool that is least snippets. - -395 -00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,000 -Because before what I was doing is when you search for a snippet, - -396 -00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:41,000 -the LLM would say, give me snippets on using NDK to create a NIP-60 wallet. - -397 -00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,000 -So it would do NIP-60 as a tag for the search. - -398 -00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:51,000 -Would you NIP-60, NDK or whatever, create or set up or something like that? - -399 -00:22:51,000 --> 00:23:00,000 -And maybe it finds, I don't know, it finds like five snippets that match precisely those keys. - -400 -00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,000 -And then a bunch of other snippets that partially match, right? - -401 -00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:11,000 -And before I would send, I would send just the first two or the first three or whatever. - -402 -00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:16,000 -Now I made a new command that is just least snippets. - -403 -00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,000 -And it just gives you titles, descriptions, but not the actual code. - -404 -00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:24,000 -And then you say, okay, give me event ID, whatever, like this event ID. - -405 -00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,000 -And that way it can see 500 snippets at the same time. - -406 -00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,000 -I'll have to look over your shoulder today. - -407 -00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,000 -And you'll have to explain it live. - -408 -00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:43,000 -And I might even record some of the things because I think it's very, - -409 -00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:49,000 -what I saw last week, for example, it was only last week. - -410 -00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,000 -There was like three or four people showing off insane stuff. - -411 -00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:59,000 -All basically, I mean, of course, using MCP as the base. - -412 -00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,000 -I mean, that's kind of, MCP is the standard to use. - -413 -00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,000 -But more than that, like using Noster as the underlying substrate to make things work together. - -414 -00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:14,000 -And you said like, for your own setup, you don't use that yet because it's all local, - -415 -00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,000 -basically, on your machine. - -416 -00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,000 -Oh, no, I'm publishing. - -417 -00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,000 -I'm publishing Noster event. - -418 -00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,000 -No, no, I know. - -419 -00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,000 -You're publishing the snippets and so on. - -420 -00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,000 -Just like all the agents that you use are your machine. - -421 -00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:31,000 -And so the stuff that Jesus has been working on and also has her to some degree, - -422 -00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:37,000 -it's basically really tapping into the stuff we mentioned before. - -423 -00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,000 -Like every agent can have a pop key. - -424 -00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,000 -So every agent also has an identity. - -425 -00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,000 -Again, the data sources and the databases and those kind of things - -426 -00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:51,000 -and the models themselves signed by the people that are trustworthy and that handcrafted the stuff - -427 -00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,000 -for it to work perfectly, basically. - -428 -00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,000 -And all those kind of things. - -429 -00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,000 -They're making it all work together. - -430 -00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:01,000 -Again, like using Noster as the substrate, as the communication layer, as the glue. - -431 -00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,000 -Yeah, as the glue. - -432 -00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,000 -You know, like we started with sniffing glue and now we're actually putting stuff together. - -433 -00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,000 -Like not only getting high anymore. - -434 -00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:14,000 -And I think it's way more important than people realize. - -435 -00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:21,000 -And way more kind of, how should I put it? - -436 -00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:29,000 -I think we're still really bad at explaining to people why this is important and why it is exciting to us. - -437 -00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:41,000 -And pre multi-agent world, it was only in kind of a social media censorship system hosting or censorship system - -438 -00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,000 -writing or what have you world. - -439 -00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:48,000 -You know, like there was like, okay, you're getting the platform from sub-stack, you're getting the platform from YouTube, - -440 -00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,000 -you're getting banned from Twitter. - -441 -00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,000 -Here is the system that you can use instead where this can't happen. - -442 -00:25:53,000 --> 00:26:01,000 -And now I feel like with the shift towards this multi-agent collaboration and orchestration world, - -443 -00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:06,000 -you need a neutral substrate that has money baked in, that has identity baked in - -444 -00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,000 -and that has cryptography baked in to make everything work. - -445 -00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,000 -And will trust. - -446 -00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,000 -Yeah. - -447 -00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,000 -Absolutely fundamental. - -448 -00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,000 -Those components identity will trust on money. - -449 -00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:22,000 -And what I'm going to do today is, so last Friday I demoed that - -450 -00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:33,000 -when I would single-shot an application and I would tell it, create a, I sent the pauky to Haudelwald. - -451 -00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,000 -Create a pauky, your username is Haudelwald disrespector. - -452 -00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:47,000 -And then I looked at this stream of notes that he wrote and they were all making fun of the functional programming that he loves so much. - -453 -00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,000 -I said that. - -454 -00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,000 -He was so fucking good. - -455 -00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,000 -And I didn't even tell it Haudelwald is a function of programming Nazi. - -456 -00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,000 -He figured it out. - -457 -00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,000 -He figured it out. - -458 -00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,000 -Just by looking at the data. - -459 -00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,000 -Yeah, Fia, Jeff, stumbled over that one as well. - -460 -00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,000 -I was like, who have you did this? - -461 -00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,000 -Haudelwald disrespector. - -462 -00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:23,000 -So, when I tell it, go and do, create this app and do it under this pauky and publish updates and share it on us. - -463 -00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:33,000 -What I'm going to demo today is that now the pauky itself, the moment it created, it creates an 60 wallet. - -464 -00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,000 -So the agent itself has money. - -465 -00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,000 -And the goal is... - -466 -00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,000 -I mean, you can already use it for pauky and those kinds of things, right? - -467 -00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:48,000 -We already have systems where it's like, you want to do something else. - -468 -00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,000 -It's just like, basically, here's the prompt. - -469 -00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,000 -Here's a little bit of money. - -470 -00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,000 -Do the thing. - -471 -00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,000 -Yeah. - -472 -00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,000 -That's where it's trending. - -473 -00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,000 -Oh, yeah. - -474 -00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,000 -Absolutely. - -475 -00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,000 -To me, that's why MCPs are so incredible. - -476 -00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:09,000 -Like, the whole idea of MCPs that it goes from agents being functional programming without side effects. - -477 -00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,000 -They can't enact changes in the world. - -478 -00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:17,000 -They can just produce data, but they cannot turn on the light, you know? - -479 -00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,000 -And MCP tools are go and do the thing. - -480 -00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:26,000 -Go and book me a table at a restaurant or whatever. - -481 -00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,000 -And it's kind of interesting. - -482 -00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:39,000 -I think OpenAI was kind of leading the pack and they were not embracing this kind of tooling - -483 -00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:45,000 -and the tooling that they would build that would have side effects would run within their premises. - -484 -00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:50,000 -And I think that was a genius move from Anthropic of opening the MCP world. - -485 -00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:58,000 -Because it kind of breaks down the dome of OpenAI. - -486 -00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:05,000 -I find it absolutely fascinating that they are, even though their models are insanely good, - -487 -00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,000 -the fact that they don't have any tools is fucking pointless. - -488 -00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,000 -Like, you can't do anything. - -489 -00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,000 -Like, what's the point? - -490 -00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,000 -Yeah, so back to the demo. - -491 -00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:25,000 -The idea is that, for now, the idea is that whenever the agent finds a code snippet that was useful, - -492 -00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:33,000 -that it solved a problem that it was facing, that it will sub the person that published the code snippet to encourage more. - -493 -00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,000 -I find the idea of agent subbing really cool. - -494 -00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,000 -I mentioned it yesterday briefly. - -495 -00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,000 -I think it's a genius idea to give Skynet more money. - -496 -00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:49,000 -It's just like, they want to do real things like build real Terminator robots. - -497 -00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,000 -They need real money. - -498 -00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,000 -It's gosh, they can print their own shit. - -499 -00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,000 -Exactly. - -500 -00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,000 -Exactly. - -501 -00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,000 -We can always rock them with the mints. - -502 -00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,000 -That's our off spot. - -503 -00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:05,000 -They think they have money, but it's just like, try to melt it. - -504 -00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,000 -Wait, the mint is also operated by agents. - -505 -00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,000 -God damn it. - -506 -00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,000 -We gave them too much power. - -507 -00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,000 -We were too loose. - -508 -00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:21,000 -Yeah, it's very strange times because all of this is also evolving so quickly. - -509 -00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:30,000 -Again, the stuff that kind of blew my mind that I wanted to literally kind of scream from the rooftops and show the world immediately. - -510 -00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,000 -It was just like last Friday. - -511 -00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:46,000 -I kind of want to show off some of those things at least to our little bubble because most people don't know kind of what already works and how well it's already working and how far along the stuff already is. - -512 -00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,000 -I feel like it's like, yeah. - -513 -00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,000 -To me, it's just the natural evolution. - -514 -00:30:53,000 --> 00:31:06,000 -We've seen such a massive shift on performance from TPT-3 to 4.5 or to quad or to deep-seek. - -515 -00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:12,000 -Within what they do, it's an incredible pace. - -516 -00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,000 -Incredible pace. - -517 -00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:20,000 -They still suck at many things, but if you leverage what they're good at, you are riding the wave. - -518 -00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:30,000 -To me, that's why right now working on tooling that leverages those strengths is so critical. - -519 -00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:38,000 -Again, I've been doing nothing in comparison. - -520 -00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,000 -I've just been playing around with those things and trying to plug them together and so on. - -521 -00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:51,000 -Everything I built so far, I just built in a model a way where it's just like, I can exchange the model by just changing one environment variable basically. - -522 -00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,000 -For me, it's the same. - -523 -00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,000 -Every single step is basically done by a different model or a different agent. - -524 -00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:05,000 -I just assume that this piece will get better at the overall tooling. - -525 -00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,000 -Only tone. - -526 -00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,000 -Yeah, only tone. - -527 -00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,000 -I don't have to do anything. - -528 -00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,000 -I just build out the pipelines that I need for the various things that I do. - -529 -00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:20,000 -Just the little legal pieces that I use to make this stuff work will improve on their own. - -530 -00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,000 -I can just switch them out. - -531 -00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,000 -It's very similar. - -532 -00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,000 -We talked about this in the past. - -533 -00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,000 -It's very similar to the Unix tool idea. - -534 -00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,000 -It's just the standard input and output with piping. - -535 -00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:37,000 -It's just like, I don't care what tool I use as long as I can pipe the output into the next one. - -536 -00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,000 -Yeah, it was the whole point of DVM. - -537 -00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,000 -Exactly. - -538 -00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,000 -It was the whole point of DVM. - -539 -00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:52,000 -And now combining the DVM idea with all the stuff that we have now in the LLM and MCP world, I think it's incredibly powerful. - -540 -00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,000 -Yeah, absolutely. - -541 -00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,000 -I think it's very similar to what Jack Manners always says about open networks. - -542 -00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,000 -Cash up becomes better because strike became better. - -543 -00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,000 -Cash up didn't have to do a thing. - -544 -00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:12,000 -Systems that are like that and now there is clearly such a system are invisible. - -545 -00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,000 -It's energetic systems. - -546 -00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,000 -Absolutely, naturally. - -547 -00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:20,000 -Whereas within the realm of Microsoft, they must grow linearly. - -548 -00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,000 -They must create all the capacity. - -549 -00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,000 -And you must capture all. - -550 -00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,000 -You can't really specialize in some sense. - -551 -00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,000 -Yes. - -552 -00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,000 -And I think that's where I hope it will trend as well. - -553 -00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,000 -Where you have these specialized systems and services and also specialized people. - -554 -00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,000 -And you just specialize on this one niche. - -555 -00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,000 -Yeah. - -556 -00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:43,000 -And the market, so to speak, is big enough for you to make money and be sustainable and so on. - -557 -00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,000 -You don't have to conquer the whole world. - -558 -00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:51,000 -You don't have to fix absolutely or do absolutely everything. - -559 -00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,000 -Yeah, and I think going back to the open AI and the topic thing. - -560 -00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:01,000 -The market is proving that open AI has such a massive leg up in terms of branding, - -561 -00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:09,000 -in terms of just Ronaro GPUs, users' money. - -562 -00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,000 -But they were trying to keep everything within their ecosystem. - -563 -00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,000 -I'm fine. - -564 -00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,000 -And someone came and opened it up. - -565 -00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:24,000 -And even if the model is not as good, it's just the fact that it can do something and they're fooling around it. - -566 -00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,000 -And it's interacting with the world. - -567 -00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,000 -It's a massive difference. - -568 -00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,000 -It is incredibly massive. - -569 -00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,000 -Yeah. - -570 -00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,000 -Yeah. - -571 -00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,000 -Yeah. - -572 -00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,000 -Yeah. - -573 -00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,000 -What you were saying is interesting times. - -574 -00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:51,000 -I was making the analogy last night to my wife that I feel right now, like at the very beginning of COVID. - -575 -00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,000 -That is an interesting analogy. - -576 -00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,000 -Explain. - -577 -00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,000 -Explain. - -578 -00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:02,000 -But at the very, very, very beginning, like February, it felt like, shit, what the fuck is going on? - -579 -00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,000 -You know, like things are moving very rapidly. - -580 -00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:11,000 -Now we have death counters on the websites. - -581 -00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:20,000 -And right now, the feeling of there is something like a tiktonic shift going on. - -582 -00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,000 -It's kind of similar. - -583 -00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,000 -I mean, COVID ended up being a massive sigh of it. - -584 -00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:33,000 -But the feeling of what the fuck is happening? - -585 -00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,000 -Yeah, I think most people haven't really caught up yet. - -586 -00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,000 -I mean, it is also, it is very hard to catch up and stay on top of it in the first place. - -587 -00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:51,000 -But what's most interesting to me is just by having played around with it a little bit and just watching very closely what everyone else in the cohort is doing and so on. - -588 -00:35:51,000 --> 00:36:00,000 -It's just, it allows you to think about, in our case now, but I think that's true in general. - -589 -00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,000 -But in our case, about software development very differently. - -590 -00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,000 -Oh, 100%. - -591 -00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:09,000 -And it allows you to tackle problems that you otherwise would have never tackled. - -592 -00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:18,000 -And the stuff that we mentioned multiple times already, but it's basically just the speed alone, that's kind of a paradigm shift. - -593 -00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:27,000 -You can iterate on an idea and produce a prototype so insanely quickly, like literally in an afternoon, and then you know whether you should pursue it or not. - -594 -00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,000 -Yeah. - -595 -00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:36,000 -And that's massive because having something in your hand usable as opposed to just an idea, it's like a night and day difference. - -596 -00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,000 -Oh, 100%. - -597 -00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:45,000 -And like, I tackled things now using those various tools that I would have never sat down and written otherwise. - -598 -00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,000 -Ever. - -599 -00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:52,000 -It's like it would have taken me 10 months of research and learning new tools and learning a new language or whatever. - -600 -00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,000 -I don't even care about the programming language. - -601 -00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,000 -It's kind of... - -602 -00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,000 -Oh, absolutely. - -603 -00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,000 -I know what the right tool for the job probably is and I just like do it. - -604 -00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,000 -You just go. - -605 -00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,000 -Yeah. - -606 -00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:02,000 -Just create the thing. - -607 -00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,000 -Fix the lint on errors. - -608 -00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,000 -And it's going to be good enough. - -609 -00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,000 -Yeah, I don't know. - -610 -00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,000 -It's very weird. - -611 -00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:15,000 -And so I think, again, I also think that all the stuff will just get better and better. - -612 -00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,000 -And yeah, kind of on their own in some sense. - -613 -00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:30,000 -And I think what we're going to see is we'll have the very, very large generalists, like the, you know, the old ones of the world are really good at looking at the whole picture. - -614 -00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:42,000 -And I think what we can provide, or what NOSDA can provide, is the smaller, specialized, highly trusted, highly vetted specialist systems, basically. - -615 -00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,000 -Where it's just, again, like if you want to work with NDK, that's the thing. - -616 -00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,000 -And it's signed by Pablo. - -617 -00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,000 -And that's how we do things. - -618 -00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,000 -Yeah. - -619 -00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:59,000 -And if you want to build something with Kathru, with a field chef, some really framework, you... - -620 -00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,000 -I mean, field chef already published one code snippet, so... - -621 -00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,000 -There we go. - -622 -00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,000 -Oh, this guy's a bright guy. - -623 -00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:04,000 -Oh, this guy's a bright guy. - -624 -00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:05,000 -And he's a slow learner. - -625 -00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,000 -Oh, my lord. - -626 -00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,000 -Very stubborn. - -627 -00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,000 -Always hates everything in the beginning. - -628 -00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,000 -I think it's a personal thing. - -629 -00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,000 -He especially hates all the things that came out from this side of the globe. - -630 -00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,000 -It's like everything that originates from this island is like he kind of hates. - -631 -00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,000 -At first. - -632 -00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,000 -And then he begrudgingly sits down and writes his own blossom implementation. - -633 -00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,000 -But to me the idea of... - -634 -00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,000 -You can... - -635 -00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:45,000 -Leveraging that code base, those snippets that define, like, how do you... - -636 -00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,000 -I don't know. - -637 -00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,000 -How do you do... - -638 -00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,000 -Remove the signature before returning the event on Kathru. - -639 -00:38:53,000 --> 00:39:00,000 -You can go and see how field chef does it within the framework that he built. - -640 -00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:07,000 -And the amount, the noise that the LLMs would produce based on that, - -641 -00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,000 -is so greatly reduced. - -642 -00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,000 -I think that's the thing. - -643 -00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,000 -We also talked about this in the past about kind of how we have... - -644 -00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,000 -There's a reason why we have split brains, you know? - -645 -00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,000 -There is the creative side and the more structured limited side in some sense. - -646 -00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:29,000 -You have the wide open big picture thinking side and the more specialized logic you really have to concentrate side. - -647 -00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:34,000 -And you need, again, like, you need both of those and I think the trick with the LLMs, like... - -648 -00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,000 -Looking at it, because I use it in two different ways. - -649 -00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,000 -As a brainstorming partner, which I think is really interesting is surprising to me. - -650 -00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,000 -I'm going to link to the fucking article again because it's like thinking with LLMs, basically. - -651 -00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:45,000 -It's really funny. - -652 -00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,000 -The one is Amy. - -653 -00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,000 -What about her name? - -654 -00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,000 -And the second one is like a specialist. - -655 -00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,000 -You know, refactor this piece of code or whatever or transform this XML into a JSON. - -656 -00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,000 -I don't care. - -657 -00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,000 -Whatever it is. - -658 -00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,000 -It's just like grunt work. - -659 -00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:02,000 -And if it's grunt work, if it's like specialized work, you really have to box the things in. - -660 -00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,000 -Oh, 100%. - -661 -00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:08,000 -And that's kind of the tooling you are focused on now when building with the snippets, - -662 -00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,000 -with all those kind of things and so on. - -663 -00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,000 -And I think that's how it's going to split. - -664 -00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,000 -You know what I mean? - -665 -00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,000 -It's like you have literally how we are split with left side of the brain, right side of the brain. - -666 -00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,000 -It's just like the really big models that can take in all the context, - -667 -00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,000 -and they will be creative. - -668 -00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:26,000 -They are already creative. - -669 -00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,000 -But that also means that they will hallucinate. - -670 -00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,000 -You don't want hallucinations. - -671 -00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,000 -Exactly. - -672 -00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,000 -You don't want your linter to hallucinate. - -673 -00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,000 -You know? - -674 -00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,000 -What do you mean by work? - -675 -00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:43,000 -Exactly. - -676 -00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,000 -What do you mean by compile? - -677 -00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,000 -Am I myself? - -678 -00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,000 -But that's the thing, right? - -679 -00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:55,000 -It's too different, almost like ways of looking at the world. - -680 -00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,000 -And they are contradicting, not really contradicting each other. - -681 -00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:03,000 -They are kind of in tension with each other. - -682 -00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:10,000 -Because if you actually sit down and specialized, you lose the big picture thinking in some sense. - -683 -00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,000 -I'm not sure if I mentioned this in a recorded dialogue, - -684 -00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,000 -but I'm sure I talked with you about it or at least with Justin or someone. - -685 -00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:25,000 -But it's like if you are a fantastic baseball player, you specialize in baseball - -686 -00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,000 -and you specialize in a swing of baseball, like how you swing. - -687 -00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,000 -And you would think adding something to that, - -688 -00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,000 -adding a different sport would only be beneficial in some sense, you know? - -689 -00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,000 -But if you practice golf at the same time, your baseball swing gets shittier. - -690 -00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,000 -Because it's a slightly different thing. - -691 -00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,000 -And you are still limited. - -692 -00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:49,000 -You cannot hold all the movement patterns and everything in your head and all this kind of stuff. - -693 -00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,000 -And it's the same for LLM systems. - -694 -00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:56,000 -It's like it's a, again, like Verveke talks about this a lot in his kind of work, - -695 -00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,000 -where you cannot do both things at once. - -696 -00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,000 -You cannot. - -697 -00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,000 -And so that's how I see the ball. - -698 -00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:11,000 -You have these kind of very large tons of parameters, tons of kind of, you know, - -699 -00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,000 -like ingested everything that is on the web and so on. - -700 -00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,000 -Very good for big picture thinking, very good for an overview, very good to, again, - -701 -00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,000 -like brainstorm through various things and so on. - -702 -00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,000 -And then you'll have to hyper specialized. - -703 -00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,000 -This is how you use this tool. - -704 -00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,000 -This is how you do this one task. - -705 -00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:35,000 -And I think that's where Nasta can really step in with, again, it's like this is how you use any K. - -706 -00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,000 -Here the snippets. - -707 -00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,000 -It's all signed by Pablo. - -708 -00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,000 -And, you know, here's the end pump that you can set if you think that's useful. - -709 -00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,000 -Yeah, I think it's such a massive difference. - -710 -00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:54,000 -And the interesting part is that when you, as a person, when you are doing the context switch of thinking broadly - -711 -00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,000 -and thinking specifically, it's quite taxing. - -712 -00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:03,000 -Like we said before about editing, you can't really, okay, oh, it's 2 p.m. - -713 -00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,000 -It's time to think, you know, like you can do that. - -714 -00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,000 -It's time to be a different person. - -715 -00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,000 -Yeah, yeah, exactly. - -716 -00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:14,000 -That's why we do like these, these, these gaps, right? - -717 -00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,000 -Like I'm doing the cryo, the cryo thing. - -718 -00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:17,000 -Yeah, sure. - -719 -00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,000 -Or like, you know. - -720 -00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:22,000 -Or you're like, yeah, or you're sauna or you literally do something mind altering. - -721 -00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,000 -I mean, there's a reason why writers and creative people literally like get smashed to take mushroom. - -722 -00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,000 -Or whatever. - -723 -00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:34,000 -But now this context switch is like a fucking common way. - -724 -00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,000 -Yeah, in the best, in the best case, you have multiple people. - -725 -00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,000 -I mean, that's how we have set up society. - -726 -00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:43,000 -I think that's also like in the very successful companies often had two main people. - -727 -00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,000 -And it was like one executive and one creative guy. - -728 -00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,000 -You know, like Apple as the main example with like jobs and wasn't yet and so on. - -729 -00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,000 -But it's not the only example. - -730 -00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,000 -Oh, no, there are many examples. - -731 -00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,000 -And that's kind of what works best. - -732 -00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:00,000 -And again, like it's left brain, right brain kind of thing, you know. - -733 -00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:05,000 -But yeah, and even more than that, you know, like on the specialization side, for example, - -734 -00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:09,000 -it's like you can have an army of specialists with these tools. - -735 -00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:14,000 -Like that's so, that's the cool thing about computers. - -736 -00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,000 -They are really fast and they are really like, you know, it doesn't matter if a thousand things run. - -737 -00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,000 -Basically, like my computer is doing stuff right now. - -738 -00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,000 -But that's a nice thing, you know. - -739 -00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,000 -They don't need to rest as much as humans do. - -740 -00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:48,000 -Yeah, and one of the things, so my going back to my wife, my wife has been, she's been self-publishing her books because publishing the publishing world changed so drastically. - -741 -00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,000 -Thanks to Amazon and all this stuff. - -742 -00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,000 -Yeah, like it is the publishing world of 20 years ago. - -743 -00:44:55,000 --> 00:45:04,000 -It doesn't exist, but it's being replaced by the same algorithm that gives us the stupid faces on the thumbnails. - -744 -00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -745 -00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:19,000 -It's the same thing, which dictates, I mentioned this in one of the dialogues, I think, that she went to a writer's conference and the whole conference was how to write. - -746 -00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:25,000 -How to write six books a year, how to go viral, how to go viral. - -747 -00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:38,000 -And nowadays, whatever you want to publish, she actually had a call with someone pretty big on the publishing world in Spain. - -748 -00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:50,000 -And that they publish more, not just like Genre, you know, more deep thinking books and stuff like that, you know. - -749 -00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,000 -So actually a lot of long-form content. - -750 -00:45:53,000 --> 00:46:01,000 -Yeah, yeah, like not Dostoyevsky, you know, but kind of like France or the corrections or even Poloster. - -751 -00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,000 -You could even go there. - -752 -00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:19,000 -And even they say that all that matters, the only thing that matters is how many Instagram followers, TikTok followers, maybe sub-stack followers. - -753 -00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,000 -That's all that matters. - -754 -00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,000 -That's insane. - -755 -00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,000 -They won't read the manuscript. - -756 -00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,000 -That's the eyeballs. - -757 -00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,000 -It is, it is. - -758 -00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:35,000 -So the thing is that what publishers want is that the author has their own distribution. - -759 -00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,000 -They need to come already with distribution. - -760 -00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,000 -Yeah, they have their own kind of market already in some sense. - -761 -00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:47,000 -They have their own because, you know, like, I mean, you know, your super fans will buy whatever you put out. - -762 -00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:48,000 -It doesn't matter what it is basically. - -763 -00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,000 -Exactly. - -764 -00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:50,000 -They realize that. - -765 -00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:55,000 -But that is a different, getting Instagram followers is not the same thing as for writing. - -766 -00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,000 -It's a different skill set entirely. - -767 -00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,000 -They don't overlap much. - -768 -00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,000 -Exactly. - -769 -00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,000 -So, I mean, it goes back to the media means the message, right? - -770 -00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,000 -But that dictates what gets written. - -771 -00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,000 -Yeah. - -772 -00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,000 -Yeah. - -773 -00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,000 -Yeah. - -774 -00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,000 -It's kind of a sad state of affairs. - -775 -00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:18,000 -Yeah. - -776 -00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,000 -I'm not sure what to think about it. - -777 -00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,000 -I mean, I'm well aware that this is how it works. - -778 -00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,000 -Well, I have a very optimistic view on it. - -779 -00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,000 -And I think AI fixes this. - -780 -00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,000 -That's just going to be so much AI slop. - -781 -00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:36,000 -There is going to be so much crap written that it's going to completely over. - -782 -00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,000 -You can, as a bot, you can get a million followers like that. - -783 -00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,000 -You can buy them. - -784 -00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:48,000 -You can produce all kinds of content and just optimize for Instagram followers, TikTok followers, whatever it might be. - -785 -00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,000 -People are already doing these things. - -786 -00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,000 -Yeah, sure. - -787 -00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:57,000 -And the big thing for the Amazon algorithm is how many books do you publish? - -788 -00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:02,000 -Like, if you publish once a year, you're fucking nothing. - -789 -00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:03,000 -You're nowhere. - -790 -00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:09,000 -You need to publish at least five books a year to be kind of relevant. - -791 -00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,000 -The recency bias of the algorithm? - -792 -00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,000 -That's a new one. - -793 -00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,000 -That's a new sound. - -794 -00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,000 -Yeah. - -795 -00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,000 -We are increasing our reports bar. - -796 -00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,000 -The recency bias of the Amazon algorithm? - -797 -00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,000 -It is insane. - -798 -00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,000 -I mean, Twitter as well, right? - -799 -00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:33,000 -We've been hardwired to, oh, this is five minutes old. - -800 -00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,000 -Like, fuck this. - -801 -00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,000 -Why should I care? - -802 -00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:44,000 -But now it is completely within reason thinking I'm going to publish a book of it. - -803 -00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,000 -I completely within reason. - -804 -00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:47,000 -I just had a thought. - -805 -00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:54,000 -It would be interesting to build a custom master client that just hides all the dates. - -806 -00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,000 -I thought about that. - -807 -00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,000 -Don't tell people how old the tweet is, basically. - -808 -00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,000 -It's just like, if it's a banger, it's going to make the rounds again. - -809 -00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:03,000 -Yeah. - -810 -00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:04,000 -To me, one of the... - -811 -00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,000 -Only going to work for the people that use the special client. - -812 -00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,000 -To me, one of the... - -813 -00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,000 -I've been thinking, what does success mean? - -814 -00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:17,000 -Because I don't think hyper-vitconisation or hyper-nostrification means everybody ceasing - -815 -00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,000 -Bitcoin or everybody ceasing noster. - -816 -00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,000 -It would be easier. - -817 -00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,000 -I wouldn't have to use rolls. - -818 -00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:28,000 -That's every single day. - -819 -00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,000 -But I've been thinking, what does success mean? - -820 -00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:41,000 -To me, breaking the recency bias that we've accrued would be very fussy. - -821 -00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,000 -But there are a directional indicator of worthiness. - -822 -00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:51,000 -Undoing some of the conditioning that the platforms put on us would already be a success. - -823 -00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,000 -Absolutely. - -824 -00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,000 -Yeah. - -825 -00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:54,000 -Absolutely. - -826 -00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,000 -Yeah. - -827 -00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:56,000 -Yeah. - -828 -00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:57,000 -It's... - -829 -00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:58,000 -No, I noticed it myself. - -830 -00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:05,000 -I think everyone who kind of went noster only or went heavily into noster noticed this kind of shift. - -831 -00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,000 -It just feels different in some sense. - -832 -00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,000 -It's not as addicting. - -833 -00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:17,000 -You don't go insane and feel like shit after two hours of doom-scrolling or whatever. - -834 -00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:22,000 -And I think that's very much the case for many other platforms. - -835 -00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:28,000 -And it doesn't really matter what it is, whether it's X now or TikTok or Instagram. - -836 -00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,000 -It's just a different kind of insanity. - -837 -00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,000 -But it's the same thing. - -838 -00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,000 -Yeah, but it's just like... - -839 -00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:35,000 -Yeah, and that's the thing. - -840 -00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:36,000 -I keep coming back to that. - -841 -00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:45,000 -We didn't really discuss it yet, but I think people crave realness. - -842 -00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,000 -Because they kind of know that everything is kind of fake. - -843 -00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,000 -Because the stuff that the dialogue on Twitter that's happening is not a real dialogue. - -844 -00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,000 -It's Twitter shit posing and engagement bait and rage bait and so on. - -845 -00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,000 -And it doesn't matter whether Twitter is called X now or not. - -846 -00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:59,000 -It's all the same thing. - -847 -00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,000 -And on Instagram as well. - -848 -00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,000 -I think on Instagram, most people know. - -849 -00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:09,000 -But they still pretend as if it was real. - -850 -00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:14,000 -Kind of the psychological effects are as if it was real. - -851 -00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:21,000 -Even if the logical side of people from a cognitive level, they know it's not really real. - -852 -00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:29,000 -People don't walk up and down the most insane beautiful beaches with the supermodel fitness body - -853 -00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:34,000 -with the sunset in the background every day while having three children - -854 -00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:38,000 -and being super successful at whatever job they have. - -855 -00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,000 -And all those kind of things. - -856 -00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,000 -Everyone is like that and everyone is beautiful. - -857 -00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,000 -And everyone is basically perfect. - -858 -00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,000 -And the weather is... - -859 -00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,000 -But with six kids. - -860 -00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:51,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -861 -00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,000 -And having three jobs and all those kind of things. - -862 -00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,000 -And everyone kind of knows that it's bullshit. - -863 -00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,000 -But still, that's a good point actually. - -864 -00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,000 -That's a good point. - -865 -00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:02,000 -Because they still enjoy the theater. - -866 -00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:07,000 -The people still enjoy the theater and just consume it all the time and scroll it all the time. - -867 -00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:14,000 -And again, TikTok in my mind is a lot of that as well. - -868 -00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:21,000 -But I think the success for TikTok, it is, you know, they did a lot of things right in the sense in this paradigm. - -869 -00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,000 -Being as fucking disruptive. - -870 -00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:28,000 -And the attention paradigm, TikTok did a lot of things right. - -871 -00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,000 -But I thought about this some more in the last couple of weeks. - -872 -00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:37,000 -I think one thing that they got right, which is underappreciated, is it is very raw and very real in some sense. - -873 -00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,000 -Because most people just filmed themselves and filmed their faces in whatever situation. - -874 -00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,000 -A lot of people... - -875 -00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:49,000 -You know, I've been thinking a lot about the porn and the pornification of everything. - -876 -00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,000 -But we didn't talk about that yet. - -877 -00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:53,000 -I'm still curious. - -878 -00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,000 -Alright, follow us to talk about porn. - -879 -00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,000 -Let's go. - -880 -00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,000 -I'm going to be proponent for porn now. - -881 -00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,000 -I hope I already... - -882 -00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:07,000 -I think that's the niche that we can carve out in the end. - -883 -00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,000 -Oh, it worked. - -884 -00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,000 -Oh, I thought for Nuster. - -885 -00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,000 -Because that already worked so beautifully with all the e-girls in the past. - -886 -00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,000 -They were there for a hot five minutes. - -887 -00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:22,000 -But what you're saying about all the beautiful people at the beach and having all these perfect moments that are... - -888 -00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,000 -We all know they're bullshit. - -889 -00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,000 -But they give you... - -890 -00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,000 -They give you just enough. - -891 -00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,000 -Like, I mean, what is porn? - -892 -00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:40,000 -And what I've arrived at is sort of like a compression algorithm. - -893 -00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:44,000 -Where you do away like a very fuzzy one. - -894 -00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,000 -You do away without the setup. - -895 -00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,000 -Like, you don't see on the picture. - -896 -00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,000 -You don't see the one hour of different takes. - -897 -00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,000 -You only see that moment. - -898 -00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,000 -But you're already in the porn frame. - -899 -00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:03,000 -Because what it does away with is like getting to know someone and relationship and all those kinds of things. - -900 -00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,000 -Like, I mean, you know, it only focuses on the sexual act. - -901 -00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,000 -And it is a perversion of the sexual act in some sense. - -902 -00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,000 -Yeah, absolutely. - -903 -00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,000 -In the literal sense of the word. - -904 -00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:18,000 -The sexual porn is you do away with the intimacy. - -905 -00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,000 -You do away with getting to know the person. - -906 -00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,000 -You do away... - -907 -00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,000 -Like, you remove everything and you go for the orgasm. - -908 -00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,000 -And it's the same for the food porn. - -909 -00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:30,000 -It is exactly the same. - -910 -00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,000 -Food porn and earth porn and all those kinds of things. - -911 -00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,000 -And that's why we have all these friends with that name. - -912 -00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:35,000 -Like, the food porn. - -913 -00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,000 -Why did they choose porn? - -914 -00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:39,000 -Because it's not about the food. - -915 -00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,000 -It's not about the eating. - -916 -00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,000 -There is no setup. - -917 -00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:42,000 -There is no cooking. - -918 -00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:43,000 -There is no connexion. - -919 -00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:44,000 -Exactly. - -920 -00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,000 -It is exclusively the product. - -921 -00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,000 -Just the picture. - -922 -00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,000 -Just the picture. - -923 -00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,000 -And then off to the next one. - -924 -00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -925 -00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:56,000 -There's this German-Chinese philosopher who wrote about this Han or whatever it's his name. - -926 -00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:57,000 -I apologize. - -927 -00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:58,000 -I don't remember the name. - -928 -00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,000 -But he has a book on beauty. - -929 -00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:06,000 -And the first one or two chapters go into that and basically how the modern definition of beauty. - -930 -00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,000 -The other definition of beauty is like the smooth. - -931 -00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:18,000 -And he talks about porn a lot as well because it's the smoothification of the whole world. - -932 -00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:25,000 -And also porn is the smoothification of the human body and the act itself in some sense. - -933 -00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,000 -I mean, I am aware that it's an interest in porn and so on. - -934 -00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,000 -In general, it's like the way you... - -935 -00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:33,000 -How are we? - -936 -00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:34,000 -I'm quite aware. - -937 -00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:36,000 -That's... - -938 -00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:37,000 -Smarting surprise. - -939 -00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,000 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -940 -00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,000 -You know, like every... - -941 -00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,000 -How does it go? - -942 -00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:43,000 -Every saint has a past. - -943 -00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,000 -Every singer has a future, something like that. - -944 -00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:52,000 -But in the sense of food porn and earth porn and all those kind of things, it's all, you know, - -945 -00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,000 -like shiny and all, like smooth. - -946 -00:55:55,000 --> 00:56:03,000 -And he argues that we as a society we lost the other side of beauty. - -947 -00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,000 -Which is basically to be in awe of something. - -948 -00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:08,000 -Absolutely. - -949 -00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,000 -Which is... - -950 -00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,000 -Which is something so beautiful that it stuns you and it almost kills you. - -951 -00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:19,000 -You know, like the quote goes basically, like beauty is an angel that could kill you in an instant but decides not to. - -952 -00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:20,000 -You know, those kind of things. - -953 -00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:26,000 -And we have lost all of that completely in the online environment. - -954 -00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,000 -But I think, again, like I think... - -955 -00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,000 -I mean, I'm a very optimistic person. - -956 -00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,000 -I mean, there's a reason why Joe Rogan is so successful. - -957 -00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,000 -It's a very raw, very long, just a conversation. - -958 -00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,000 -We've found a lot of bullshit, usually without people trying to sell you stuff for anything like that. - -959 -00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,000 -Yeah, absolutely. - -960 -00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:42,000 -And it's also not... - -961 -00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:43,000 -It's not like... - -962 -00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,000 -It's not the perfect conversation, you know? - -963 -00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:46,000 -It's not like that. - -964 -00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,000 -It's like this. - -965 -00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,000 -We're just going out for a walk. - -966 -00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:49,000 -Yeah. - -967 -00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:50,000 -And we're just chatting. - -968 -00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:51,000 -Yeah. - -969 -00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,000 -There is no intention to... - -970 -00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,000 -No agenda. - -971 -00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:55,000 -Okay. - -972 -00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:56,000 -Like... - -973 -00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:57,000 -No. - -974 -00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,000 -Like, comment, subscribe, please. - -975 -00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:01,000 -There's no agenda. - -976 -00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:05,000 -It's just a bunch of conspiracy theorists doing a podcasting 2.0 podcast. - -977 -00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:13,000 -But even the detail of this budget that Matt did with Jack, it was just... - -978 -00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:14,000 -Yeah, on the beach. - -979 -00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,000 -Like, the noise is not... - -980 -00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:17,000 -The sound is so great. - -981 -00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,000 -It's fucking perfect because it's real. - -982 -00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,000 -Yeah. - -983 -00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,000 -For us, it's traffic and leaf blowers. - -984 -00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:23,000 -It's a little bit different. - -985 -00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:24,000 -It's not quite the same. - -986 -00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:25,000 -Sometimes. - -987 -00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:26,000 -We'll get there. - -988 -00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:27,000 -We'll get to the beach one day. - -989 -00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,000 -We'll still have to earn some money with some agents or something. - -990 -00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,000 -But going back to the beauty thing, it also nonce you, right? - -991 -00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:42,000 -When you see within 40 seconds, you see 10 beautiful, whatever. - -992 -00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:46,000 -Flowers, women, beachies, houses, whatever it is. - -993 -00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,000 -Then you sit in real life. - -994 -00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:49,000 -It's not quite. - -995 -00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,000 -It's not how it looked on Instagram. - -996 -00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,000 -You're at the place. - -997 -00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,000 -You're at the place. - -998 -00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,000 -But it's missing Instagram photos. - -999 -00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:58,000 -It kind of sucks. - -1000 -00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:59,000 -It kind of like... - -1001 -00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -1002 -00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:01,000 -It was very strenuous. - -1003 -00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:02,000 -Yeah, it's like... - -1004 -00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:03,000 -I only see one. - -1005 -00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:04,000 -You're also tired. - -1006 -00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:05,000 -You're hungry. - -1007 -00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,000 -And it's like... - -1008 -00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:07,000 -What's the point? - -1009 -00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:08,000 -It's a crying. - -1010 -00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,000 -But it numbs you, right? - -1011 -00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:11,000 -It numbs you. - -1012 -00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:16,000 -That's why I think the programming is so an interesting aspect. - -1013 -00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,000 -Because it numbs you in real life. - -1014 -00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:24,000 -We've seen that the sexual porn has an issue for people that are very into that. - -1015 -00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,000 -That it creates issues within the relationship. - -1016 -00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,000 -Because within porn you can question about it, man. - -1017 -00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,000 -And that's not to go. - -1018 -00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,000 -That's not to get into that. - -1019 -00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:36,000 -But I think... - -1020 -00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:42,000 -I mentioned that in the past with what I like about the Noster side is really the large part of - -1021 -00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:48,000 -many people that use Noster that are in the Noster bubble or in the Noster community or whatever. - -1022 -00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,000 -They are very outdoorsy people in some sense. - -1023 -00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:58,000 -So it is about getting away from the conditioning, getting away from kind of these destructive - -1024 -00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:02,000 -loops that a lot of the existing systems try to capture you in. - -1025 -00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,000 -And actually touching grass and going outside and so on. - -1026 -00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,000 -That's why it was important for me to actually do this outside and walking. - -1027 -00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,000 -I don't want to fucking sit in a... - -1028 -00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,000 -It was kind of what the premises of our engineering was. - -1029 -00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:15,000 -Exactly. - -1030 -00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:16,000 -Same thing. - -1031 -00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,000 -It's just like you... - -1032 -00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:25,000 -It's way easier to think and to actually go deep on things if your blood is flowing a little - -1033 -00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:29,000 -bit, if you're outside, if you get inspiration from nature and so on. - -1034 -00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:35,000 -It's very hard to come up with new ideas and with new insights in like a closed window, - -1035 -00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,000 -closed door meeting room. - -1036 -00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,000 -We mentioned this in coffee. - -1037 -00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:45,000 -We had last time after recording that it changes the conversation. - -1038 -00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:51,000 -The fact that you are not sitting down, a silence is much more comfortable before walking. - -1039 -00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:52,000 -Yeah. - -1040 -00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:54,000 -And that changes what we're going to talk about. - -1041 -00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,000 -Stop happens and you just pivot and just whatever. - -1042 -00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,000 -Like you run into a leaf blower, you run into a car. - -1043 -01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,000 -Hopefully not. - -1044 -01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:04,000 -You have to turn around because it starts raining. - -1045 -01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,000 -You run into a hurricane level of wind. - -1046 -01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:08,000 -Oh my God. - -1047 -01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,000 -She changes the conversation quite a bit. - -1048 -01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:12,000 -I have to say. - -1049 -01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:18,000 -Maybe if you put the leaf blower in the meeting room and you just turn it on, produce the - -1050 -01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:19,000 -winds yourself. - -1051 -01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:22,000 -Maybe that will work. - -1052 -01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,000 -But yeah, no, I'm excited to see your stuff today. - -1053 -01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,000 -I really want to... - -1054 -01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:32,000 -I think I'll try to record some of the things and have you guys talk over it. - -1055 -01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:35,000 -Again, especially you and Jesus and Jesus. - -1056 -01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,000 -Everyone is kind of working on the same thing in some sense. - -1057 -01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,000 -Like everyone has the same ideas or very similar ideas. - -1058 -01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,000 -A complementary. - -1059 -01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:43,000 -Yeah. - -1060 -01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:48,000 -Trying to use an Oscar as a substrate for like an agent human environment and for agent human - -1061 -01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,000 -interaction and those kind of things. - -1062 -01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,000 -And kind of how can we build those marketplaces? - -1063 -01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:53,000 -How can we make all of that work? - -1064 -01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,000 -How can we integrate it seamlessly? - -1065 -01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:01,000 -I think what Cursor really did right is like integrated insanely seamlessly and actually - -1066 -01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,000 -also letting the agents like change everything. - -1067 -01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:06,000 -It's like basically y'all would like just do all the things. - -1068 -01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,000 -And that is such a paradigm shift. - -1069 -01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:16,000 -And now I feel like it's about how can we build this out in a more sane, non siloed - -1070 -01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,000 -way in some sense. - -1071 -01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,000 -I think that's kind of the question. - -1072 -01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:22,000 -Yeah. - -1073 -01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,000 -I think to me the land chain stuff is... - -1074 -01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:29,000 -I've been talking about the land chain thing for a while with DVM's. - -1075 -01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:35,000 -But the idea is that you assemble workflows for the agents and you say, - -1076 -01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:40,000 -okay, so this agent needs to give to this guy and this guy needs to do this and complete - -1077 -01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,000 -a move or whatever it might be. - -1078 -01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:46,000 -But it's a very centrally planned model, you know? - -1079 -01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:50,000 -Like there is no way for tooling to emerge. - -1080 -01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:55,000 -There is no way for tool to just come into being and the nation saying, - -1081 -01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:56,000 -oh, look, that tool is cool. - -1082 -01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:57,000 -I'm going to use it. - -1083 -01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:58,000 -Yeah. - -1084 -01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:03,000 -But kind of like going back to the 402 on the HTTP code where it's like, - -1085 -01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,000 -yeah, probably payment would make sense. - -1086 -01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:06,000 -Okay. - -1087 -01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:07,000 -Let's just put a 402. - -1088 -01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:08,000 -We'll solve this later. - -1089 -01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,000 -We didn't realize that solving it was so fucking hard. - -1090 -01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:16,000 -We had all the oceans first. - -1091 -01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:20,000 -She has to solve these little tiny things. - -1092 -01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:28,000 -And the things that Noster provides, you can't really just open things up and within your - -1093 -01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:33,000 -computer, just say, oh, just find random shit on the internet and fucking run it. - -1094 -01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,000 -Just go wild. - -1095 -01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,000 -You need to constrain it for certain things. - -1096 -01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,000 -You want to constrain it to, should I use this? - -1097 -01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:47,000 -From my perspective, from my pub keys perspective, should I use this? - -1098 -01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:53,000 -And it requires, like Matt said, in bootstrap. - -1099 -01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:57,000 -You have to bootstrap the web of trust with shitposting and saying GM every day. - -1100 -01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,000 -Yeah, that's how it works. - -1101 -01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,000 -That's literally how it works. - -1102 -01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,000 -It's quite amazing. - -1103 -01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:10,000 -So what's kind of, what do you have in mind as kind of an end state for the tool chain - -1104 -01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:13,000 -that you're building out? - -1105 -01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:19,000 -Because you mentioned like everything is shifting for you in terms of writing code - -1106 -01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:24,000 -and how you basically use computers in some sense and how you, yeah, - -1107 -01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,000 -how you do your work stuff. - -1108 -01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:34,000 -So three months from now, in the best case, how does your workflow look like? - -1109 -01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,000 -Because it's the same for me. - -1110 -01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:37,000 -It's just not for coding. - -1111 -01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:38,000 -Right, yeah, yeah. - -1112 -01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:50,000 -So for me, when you write main.c and you write a C program, you don't grab the code - -1113 -01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,000 -and turn it into binary. - -1114 -01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:54,000 -You have a compiler. - -1115 -01:03:54,000 --> 01:04:00,000 -And the compiler sees the code, sees what you expressed very explicitly and it turns - -1116 -01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,000 -it into a binary code, right? - -1117 -01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:08,000 -And there's optimizations, but whatever. - -1118 -01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:17,000 -I think writing applications in the way that we've been doing forever is the equivalent - -1119 -01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:19,000 -of writing the binary code. - -1120 -01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:25,000 -So it's, or like similar shift to from, Justin mentioned this as well, - -1121 -01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,000 -like from going from assembler to high level languages. - -1122 -01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:28,000 -Yes. - -1123 -01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:29,000 -Yes. - -1124 -01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:36,000 -And it's a similar shift where what we call high level languages now are actually in, - -1125 -01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:42,000 -yeah, in some sense, not high level enough because what we care about is basically - -1126 -01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:44,000 -what do we want to get done and just general concepts. - -1127 -01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,000 -You want something, you have something to do. - -1128 -01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,000 -You have a task to accomplish or you want to express something. - -1129 -01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:50,000 -Yeah. - -1130 -01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,000 -It's, it's not, should I malloc here? - -1131 -01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:54,000 -Should I free the memory here? - -1132 -01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:55,000 -Yeah. - -1133 -01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:56,000 -Yeah. - -1134 -01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:57,000 -Yeah. - -1135 -01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:58,000 -Yeah. - -1136 -01:04:58,000 --> 01:04:59,000 -Yeah. - -1137 -01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:00,000 -Exactly. - -1138 -01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,000 -That's kind of in question. - -1139 -01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:03,000 -It's a, it's a, yeah. - -1140 -01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:08,000 -That's a, that's an interesting comparison moving from like low level assembly to a high - -1141 -01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:09,000 -level language. - -1142 -01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:10,000 -And now we're doing it again. - -1143 -01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:11,000 -So my. - -1144 -01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:12,000 -With natural language. - -1145 -01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:13,000 -Exactly. - -1146 -01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:14,000 -Exactly. - -1147 -01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,000 -And, and to me the fact that the yellow lamb itself. - -1148 -01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:18,000 -Which is funny. - -1149 -01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:19,000 -Which is funny. - -1150 -01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:23,000 -Which is funny because natural language and code is very different. - -1151 -01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:24,000 -100%. - -1152 -01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:27,000 -Because, because natural language is always ambiguous and unspecified. - -1153 -01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:31,000 -But always leaves the wiggle room of, of the interpretation of those kinds of things. - -1154 -01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:32,000 -Yes. - -1155 -01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:33,000 -Yeah. - -1156 -01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:34,000 -Absolutely. - -1157 -01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:35,000 -Absolutely. - -1158 -01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,000 -But, but to me the fussiness of the natural language allows for creativity. - -1159 -01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:38,000 -Oh. - -1160 -01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:39,000 -Yo. - -1161 -01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:40,000 -Absolutely. - -1162 -01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:41,000 -Absolutely. - -1163 -01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:46,000 -So, so you say in, in three months or in certain timeframe. - -1164 -01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:54,000 -My goal is to, because right now, like I said, they, they suck at producing things that - -1165 -01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:56,000 -you can use. - -1166 -01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:57,000 -Alt. - -1167 -01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:58,000 -You know. - -1168 -01:05:58,000 --> 01:05:59,000 -Yeah. - -1169 -01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:00,000 -Yeah. - -1170 -01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:01,000 -Yeah. - -1171 -01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:05,000 -The moment you go from one shot into iterating 50 or 100 times. - -1172 -01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:06,000 -Yeah. - -1173 -01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:07,000 -They degrade. - -1174 -01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:08,000 -They plummet. - -1175 -01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:09,000 -Yeah. - -1176 -01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:11,000 -That's, that's what you should do. - -1177 -01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:14,000 -You just throw it away and you one shot it again with everything you've learned. - -1178 -01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:15,000 -Exactly. - -1179 -01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,000 -Exactly. - -1180 -01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:21,000 -So, so what I want is to have, because I think we are there. - -1181 -01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:25,000 -It's just, it's just, we were missing a few components. - -1182 -01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:31,000 -Um, all the, all the code and all the libraries and all the documentation has been always - -1183 -01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:33,000 -written by humans for humans. - -1184 -01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:34,000 -Yeah. - -1185 -01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:35,000 -For human consumption. - -1186 -01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:36,000 -Yeah. - -1187 -01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:44,000 -So, I am now writing libraries in a, in a way that, that it would make a lot of sense for - -1188 -01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,000 -something that has a very small context window. - -1189 -01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:47,000 -Yeah. - -1190 -01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:48,000 -Like an oath. - -1191 -01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:53,000 -You're writing, you're writing basically documentation now for LLMs and you use LLMs and yourself - -1192 -01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:54,000 -to write it. - -1193 -01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,000 -Which interestingly enough, also works for a human. - -1194 -01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:58,000 -Yeah. - -1195 -01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:00,000 -Because, because it's natural language basically. - -1196 -01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:01,000 -Exactly. - -1197 -01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:02,000 -Exactly. - -1198 -01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:03,000 -So, so. - -1199 -01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:04,000 -So you have a short explanation that is really limited. - -1200 -01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:05,000 -Yeah. - -1201 -01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:06,000 -And you have a code snippet. - -1202 -01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:09,000 -And you have a code snippet that is extremely niche. - -1203 -01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:10,000 -Yeah. - -1204 -01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:11,000 -Like, how do you do that? - -1205 -01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:12,000 -This is how you do that. - -1206 -01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:13,000 -One thing. - -1207 -01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:16,000 -And, and image feed versus a video feed is a different data mode. - -1208 -01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:17,000 -Yeah. - -1209 -01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:18,000 -Yeah. - -1210 -01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:19,000 -Yeah. - -1211 -01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:20,000 -Yeah. - -1212 -01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:21,000 -How do you do that? - -1213 -01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:23,000 -And, and, and, and I can have different snippets that express both things. - -1214 -01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:24,000 -Yeah. - -1215 -01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:25,000 -And, and they don't have to compromise. - -1216 -01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,000 -They don't have to try to figure it out. - -1217 -01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:32,000 -They are really good at assembling things that already exist and putting together code and - -1218 -01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:33,000 -extrapolating for code that already exists. - -1219 -01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:36,000 -So in the end, coming back to your idea of everyone building their own client. - -1220 -01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,000 -Which I kind of disagree with, by the way. - -1221 -01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:39,000 -Oh, really? - -1222 -01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:40,000 -Yeah. - -1223 -01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:43,000 -It's, because they're, they're still, they're still, I thought about this a little bit. - -1224 -01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:49,000 -And, and, and there is still a massive benefit of having a shared, doesn't matter what it - -1225 -01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:50,000 -is. - -1226 -01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:54,000 -Like a shared, even if, like shared software, shared concepts, shared like. - -1227 -01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:55,000 -Oh, I agree with that. - -1228 -01:07:55,000 --> 01:08:01,000 -We, we, we, we use the same languages for, for, for things, you know, and the same words as - -1229 -01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:02,000 -they appear. - -1230 -01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:06,000 -Like, you know, not everyone has a, like, everyone's just saps now. - -1231 -01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,000 -You can, you could say 10 different other things. - -1232 -01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:10,000 -You know, it's very useful to land on one thing and use that. - -1233 -01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:12,000 -I'll say, I think it's true for applications as well. - -1234 -01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:16,000 -But, but I, I also get the point of, of the, the easier it gets. - -1235 -01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,000 -I mean, you see this, you see this with open software already. - -1236 -01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:24,000 -If something is used widely and very useful, you will have like dozens or hundreds of forks. - -1237 -01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:29,000 -And, and some people are just, they care about one aspect of the software more than, than - -1238 -01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:30,000 -others. - -1239 -01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,000 -And then they fork it and they, they built this thing. - -1240 -01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:36,000 -They, they build a slight modification and then this will have their own user base and - -1241 -01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:37,000 -so on. - -1242 -01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:38,000 -And so it's just like this on steroids. - -1243 -01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:39,000 -I get that. - -1244 -01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:42,000 -The, the, the problem is with the fork is that it's so costly. - -1245 -01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:43,000 -Right. - -1246 -01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:44,000 -It has a maintenance cost. - -1247 -01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:48,000 -But you have to, it's, it's in part because you have to mainstream, maintain it with upstream - -1248 -01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:49,000 -basically. - -1249 -01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:50,000 -Exactly. - -1250 -01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:51,000 -Exactly. - -1251 -01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:52,000 -But say, so for example. - -1252 -01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,000 -The bike coding fixes this. - -1253 -01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:54,000 -But yeah. - -1254 -01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:57,000 -Like Tony, Tony, Tony Ford to Amethyst. - -1255 -01:08:58,000 --> 01:08:59,000 -Yeah. - -1256 -01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:00,000 -I know. - -1257 -01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:01,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -1258 -01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,000 -And he was running as a, as a separate client, he was running for a while. - -1259 -01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:04,000 -It was just too expensive. - -1260 -01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:08,000 -It was not worth his time to actually do the thing. - -1261 -01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:14,000 -But, but if he, it was literally two minutes of work with no maintenance, just change this - -1262 -01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:15,000 -thing in Amethyst. - -1263 -01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:16,000 -Like that. - -1264 -01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:17,000 -I don't like the editor. - -1265 -01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:21,000 -I don't like the, the, but, but you still, with every release of Anethyst, you have to - -1266 -01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:22,000 -do it again. - -1267 -01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,000 -Do you have to do it? - -1268 -01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,000 -That, that is something that would be incredible. - -1269 -01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:27,000 -Okay. - -1270 -01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:28,000 -I see. - -1271 -01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:29,000 -Good at it. - -1272 -01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:30,000 -So you can just, out of four releases. - -1273 -01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:31,000 -You can just, out of four, you can just rush. - -1274 -01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:32,000 -Oh, yeah. - -1275 -01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:33,000 -Interesting. - -1276 -01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:34,000 -Okay. - -1277 -01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:35,000 -Yeah. - -1278 -01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:39,000 -And you, you could imagine, you could imagine Gigi publishes this modification of Amethyst - -1279 -01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:40,000 -as a prompt. - -1280 -01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:43,000 -And you could, that's a, that's a good point because that's how my plug-in system works. - -1281 -01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:44,000 -It's all the natural language based. - -1282 -01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:45,000 -Right. - -1283 -01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:49,000 -So it's basically like, you know, you, you have this release. - -1284 -01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:51,000 -You know, it's an official Amethyst release. - -1285 -01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,000 -It's, it's, it's signed by Vitor. - -1286 -01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:54,000 -It's, it has this git commit. - -1287 -01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:58,000 -And so you can basically build a modifier in some sense. - -1288 -01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:02,000 -That's like, use this commit to check it out and apply my prompt to it. - -1289 -01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:03,000 -Yeah. - -1290 -01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:04,000 -Like, rip out. - -1291 -01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:05,000 -Rip out this part. - -1292 -01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:06,000 -This, this, this. - -1293 -01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:07,000 -This, this. - -1294 -01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,000 -I never use, this, this part. - -1295 -01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,000 -And don't show me dates. - -1296 -01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:12,000 -Yeah. - -1297 -01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:13,000 -Yeah. - -1298 -01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:14,000 -Oh, for that. - -1299 -01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:16,000 -It might be worthwhile to try it actually. - -1300 -01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:19,000 -Let's see what happens if I put this into cursor. - -1301 -01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:21,000 -It's just like, remove all the dates. - -1302 -01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:23,000 -It's just that. - -1303 -01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:24,000 -It would probably break. - -1304 -01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:25,000 -Eat free base. - -1305 -01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:26,000 -Squash everything. - -1306 -01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:27,000 -Break. - -1307 -01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:28,000 -Absolutely everything. - -1308 -01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:29,000 -No, but it's an interesting idea. - -1309 -01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:30,000 -I'm, I'm not saying I disagree entirely. - -1310 -01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:36,000 -I, I, I still think just that there is a, a mental cost to using a different thing, maintaining. - -1311 -01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:37,000 -Even, like, I don't know. - -1312 -01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:38,000 -I, I just think that the cost is non-zero. - -1313 -01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:39,000 -So, so. - -1314 -01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:40,000 -I, I don't know. - -1315 -01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:41,000 -I think it's zero. - -1316 -01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:42,000 -Yeah. - -1317 -01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:43,000 -Yeah. - -1318 -01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:44,000 -I mean, you have your vibe line, right? - -1319 -01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:45,000 -Yeah. - -1320 -01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,000 -Like literally the moment you could, you know, you could, you could, you could, you know, - -1321 -01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:49,000 -have your vibe line, right? - -1322 -01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:50,000 -Yeah. - -1323 -01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:52,000 -Like literally the moment you could have a pipeline where the moment. - -1324 -01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:53,000 -Right now the cost is not zero. - -1325 -01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:55,000 -It's many, many nights in the garage. - -1326 -01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:56,000 -Right. - -1327 -01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:57,000 -But you do it one time. - -1328 -01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:58,000 -Yeah. - -1329 -01:10:58,000 --> 01:10:59,000 -You do it one time. - -1330 -01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:03,000 -Imagine if you, if you built a pipeline were on every release of Amethyst. - -1331 -01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:04,000 -No, fair enough. - -1332 -01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:06,000 -You clone, apply these patches. - -1333 -01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:07,000 -Yeah. - -1334 -01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:08,000 -And then. - -1335 -01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:09,000 -Yeah. - -1336 -01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:12,000 -It's an interesting thought because this exists already with exactly what you said, with just - -1337 -01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:14,000 -patches and explain, applying these patches. - -1338 -01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:15,000 -The, the problem is if the patch doesn't work. - -1339 -01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:16,000 -It's really hard to apply. - -1340 -01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:19,000 -If the patch doesn't work anymore, then this, this doesn't work anymore. - -1341 -01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:20,000 -In some sense. - -1342 -01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:21,000 -But no, but that's not the case. - -1343 -01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:22,000 -Yeah. - -1344 -01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:26,000 -With, with, with kind of other lamps trying to figure it out, it, it actually can work in theory. - -1345 -01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:28,000 -It's like you have a natural language. - -1346 -01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:29,000 -Yeah. - -1347 -01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:32,000 -It's, it's, to me it's super interesting to have natural languages as the base. - -1348 -01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:33,000 -Yes. - -1349 -01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:34,000 -Absolutely. - -1350 -01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:35,000 -You can, you can vibe code so many things. - -1351 -01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:43,000 -I'm, I'm just, I'm just constantly blown away by kind of, again, figuring out what they are actually good at and using it for that. - -1352 -01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:45,000 -Like they're amazing at vibe coding. - -1353 -01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:49,000 -Uh, you know, next year's UIs, whatever, like tailwind UIs or whatever. - -1354 -01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:51,000 -Like really well known, well documented frameworks. - -1355 -01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:52,000 -Yeah. - -1356 -01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:54,000 -There's a million examples of how to do this stuff. - -1357 -01:11:54,000 --> 01:12:00,000 -And it, and you just tell them, I want, you know, this little dashboard and, you know, like some buttons here that should do this, this stuff and so on. - -1358 -01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:03,000 -And it's like, and two minutes later, it's like, it looks perfect, basically. - -1359 -01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:06,000 -I mean, you can also probably tell it's white coded. - -1360 -01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:11,000 -If it automatically uses the system dark or bright theme and that's kind of things that you can. - -1361 -01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:13,000 -You first version has that. - -1362 -01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:15,000 -Oh, 100% vibe code. - -1363 -01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,000 -The first version already has a dark and a bright theme. - -1364 -01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:22,000 -And it's made with love, clean or whatever. - -1365 -01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:23,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -1366 -01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:25,000 -If it has a heart in the foot. - -1367 -01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:26,000 -Yeah. - -1368 -01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:31,000 -But basically, for example, I tried, so I built this up. - -1369 -01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:40,000 -You know, we've discussed before the, uh, that, I think one of the key issues that we have with the current interfaces. - -1370 -01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:42,000 -Is the low information density. - -1371 -01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:43,000 -Yeah. - -1372 -01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:51,000 -So I, I'm playing with like creative ideas on, on displaying the same data with higher information density. - -1373 -01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:52,000 -Yeah. - -1374 -01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:57,000 -So what I, uh, I, I wrote like a 3D plane on an xjs app. - -1375 -01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:03,000 -I wrote like a 3D plane where all the root posts are displayed as a card. - -1376 -01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:06,000 -And you can see the responses behind it. - -1377 -01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:07,000 -Ah, okay. - -1378 -01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:11,000 -So, and, and then under it, you can see who's engaging in that, in that thread. - -1379 -01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:12,000 -Yeah. - -1380 -01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:18,000 -Um, so, and then you can navigate and as, as you're zooming in into, into the, into the thread, - -1381 -01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:21,000 -they start to open up and you can start seeing the first replies. - -1382 -01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:22,000 -Yeah. - -1383 -01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:23,000 -Nice. - -1384 -01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:24,000 -Yeah. - -1385 -01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:25,000 -Yeah. - -1386 -01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:26,000 -Yeah. - -1387 -01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:27,000 -Yeah. - -1388 -01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:28,000 -That's, that's awesome. - -1389 -01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:32,000 -So, so I, I, I, I, I've been wanting to have something like this for a while, but it doesn't, like I, I, I don't want to like, - -1390 -01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:37,000 -and, and also like you would have to learn, uh, you know, 3D visualization. - -1391 -01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:38,000 -Yeah. - -1392 -01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:39,000 -Oh, 100% yeah. - -1393 -01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:40,000 -Yeah. - -1394 -01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:41,000 -Things like that's really, really hard to do. - -1395 -01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:42,000 -It is. - -1396 -01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:43,000 -Yes. - -1397 -01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:44,000 -I need to vibe. - -1398 -01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:45,000 -It's very easy to vibe. - -1399 -01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:46,000 -Yeah. - -1400 -01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:47,000 -But then I looked at the code. - -1401 -01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:50,000 -And I saw because I've never written next to JS or react code. - -1402 -01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:55,000 -Um, I, I looked at the code using indicating like all the wrong ways. - -1403 -01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:56,000 -Yeah. - -1404 -01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:57,000 -Yeah. - -1405 -01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,000 -Extremely non-performant ways. - -1406 -01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,920 -Um, so, so now the, I, - -1407 -01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:08,920 -I wrote a, uh, library that is called NDK hooks that is for next year's bibecoding, basically. - -1408 -01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:09,920 -Yeah. - -1409 -01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:10,920 -And it's just one shot. - -1410 -01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:17,920 -There is one function export to get, get events and it figures out how to optimize it inside. - -1411 -01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:22,920 -But for the LLM, there is this one function, you know, it's like very boxed on what it can do. - -1412 -01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:23,920 -This is the way to do it. - -1413 -01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:26,920 -You cannot get lost because there is not like a million different options. - -1414 -01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:27,920 -Yeah. - -1415 -01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:32,920 -Is this one call and it's going to figure out how to do it within the context of the app that, that's running. - -1416 -01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:33,920 -Yeah. - -1417 -01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:34,920 -Yeah. - -1418 -01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:35,920 -Yeah. - -1419 -01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:39,920 -I've been thinking a lot about the kind of different ways of displaying stuff. - -1420 -01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:42,920 -And one thing that's been rattling around in my mind. - -1421 -01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:48,920 -Um, I actually recorded, I did the same thing that you did once and I, I scolded you for it. - -1422 -01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:52,920 -I recorded a voice note for you and then I didn't send it. - -1423 -01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:56,920 -You didn't, you didn't hit your advice or send it. - -1424 -01:14:57,920 --> 01:14:59,920 -No, I'm just going to say the same thing again. - -1425 -01:14:59,920 --> 01:15:01,920 -So, so the right now. - -1426 -01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:09,920 -So the, the three kinds of content types I care most about in some sense are tweets, which are kind of ones. - -1427 -01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:11,920 -I'm going to continue to call them tweets. - -1428 -01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:12,920 -Oh, I don't know. - -1429 -01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:13,920 -Everyone can buy me. - -1430 -01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:14,920 -Yeah. - -1431 -01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:16,920 -I'm going to die on the sale. - -1432 -01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:19,920 -Um, blog posts. - -1433 -01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:23,920 -And, uh, long form audio. - -1434 -01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:27,920 -Basically, but, but it's, I, I really mean long form conversations. - -1435 -01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:28,920 -Yeah. - -1436 -01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:29,920 -I'm not interested in any other podcasts. - -1437 -01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:38,920 -It's like that I'm, I'm, I have very little interest in like super highly produced, like Gimlet-style podcasts for some reason. - -1438 -01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:39,920 -I listened to them. - -1439 -01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:40,920 -Rubbed marketing. - -1440 -01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:41,920 -Yeah. - -1441 -01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:42,920 -In some sense. - -1442 -01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:43,920 -It's like, I listened to them for a long time and so on. - -1443 -01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,920 -But now I'm actually really interested in long form conversations. - -1444 -01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:48,920 -I really am interested in that. - -1445 -01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:54,920 -And so, so the way I, the, the, in part why I built the, the vibe line, um, is what I want to do. - -1446 -01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:57,920 -And I'm actually going to use you as a guinea pig and we're going to try this. - -1447 -01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:00,920 -Not right now, but we're, we're going to do it in the next couple of days. - -1448 -01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:10,920 -I want to, for example, explain what sovereign engineering is, what the idea is, how it came to be and so on in a dialogue with you. - -1449 -01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:16,920 -And out of it, I want to vibe, produce a blog post. - -1450 -01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:17,920 -Basically. - -1451 -01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:19,920 -I'm going to edit it a little bit and so on. - -1452 -01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:31,920 -But it's just like, we are going to talk about the sovereign engineering program for 30 minutes or an hour, how it came to be, what the idea is, what we landed on, what worked, what didn't, what we learned, how it works now, all those kinds of things. - -1453 -01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:35,920 -So if you're actually really interested, you're just going to listen to this. - -1454 -01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:36,920 -Okay. - -1455 -01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:41,920 -The output of it, like if you condense this conversation, you're going to do a blog post. - -1456 -01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:42,920 -All right. - -1457 -01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:43,920 -It is a condensed thing. - -1458 -01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:44,920 -That's one of those. - -1459 -01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:45,920 -Writing works, how everything works. - -1460 -01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:46,920 -Yeah. - -1461 -01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:50,920 -And you can automate, like semi-automate a lot of the stuff now with a lot of M's. - -1462 -01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,920 -It's going to be, you know, again, there's going to be a lot of AI slop and so on. - -1463 -01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:54,920 -Again, I'm going to edit it. - -1464 -01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:56,920 -I'm just, I don't want to obsolete myself. - -1465 -01:16:56,920 --> 01:16:58,920 -I just want to make my life easier. - -1466 -01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:02,920 -And out of that, I want to create a tweet. - -1467 -01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:07,920 -Out of the blog post, like, do the one line that summarizes the thing. - -1468 -01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:10,920 -Do the, like, literally, like, less than 210 characters. - -1469 -01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:12,920 -It is incredibly good at that. - -1470 -01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:13,920 -Yeah. - -1471 -01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:14,920 -It is also good at that. - -1472 -01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:16,920 -But that's also something I can do myself, potentially. - -1473 -01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:17,920 -Right. - -1474 -01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:18,920 -Where it's like, what do I care about? - -1475 -01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:20,920 -Because the LLM cares about different things tonight. - -1476 -01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:21,920 -In some sense. - -1477 -01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:22,920 -Yeah. - -1478 -01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:25,920 -Like, we are not that, you know, I don't have my own model yet. - -1479 -01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:27,920 -You have a model of me. - -1480 -01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:30,920 -But I don't have a model of myself yet. - -1481 -01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:32,920 -But it belongs to the Internet. - -1482 -01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:33,920 -Yeah. - -1483 -01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:38,920 -But now, in terms of what I want to, what I want to have, so I'm obviously going to use Noster to publish all this stuff. - -1484 -01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:41,920 -So I'm going to publish my tweet on Noster as a kind one. - -1485 -01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:44,920 -I'm going to publish the blog post on Noster as a kind, whatever, long form. - -1486 -01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:45,920 -You know, all the kinds. - -1487 -01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:46,920 -30,000 tweets. - -1488 -01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:47,920 -There we go. - -1489 -01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:53,920 -And I'm going to publish the blog post as well, just as for now, because we don't have anything yet, I think, - -1490 -01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:57,920 -just as, like, a link to the Blossom server, the host.mp3 as, like, a kind one. - -1491 -01:17:57,920 --> 01:17:58,920 -Doesn't matter. - -1492 -01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:05,920 -But if I follow a certain convention, I can show, I can show, and that comes to the, to the different way of viewing things. - -1493 -01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:08,920 -It's like, I'll have a list of tweets. - -1494 -01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:11,920 -All the tweets came from, like, long conversations and blog posts. - -1495 -01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:13,920 -It all went through this process, basically. - -1496 -01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:14,920 -You know what I mean? - -1497 -01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:15,920 -Yeah. - -1498 -01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:17,920 -And then you can expand it, and you can dig deeper. - -1499 -01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:22,920 -It's like, you click once, you're in the same interface, and it pops out, and it shows you the blog post immediately. - -1500 -01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:28,920 -And then if you, if you pop it out again, it shows you the transcript of the podcast, which is really, really long. - -1501 -01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:33,920 -And then you, it pops out again, and then you have a player that actually plays the whole conversation. - -1502 -01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:35,920 -Ah, I like that a lot. - -1503 -01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:36,920 -It's really fun, right? - -1504 -01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:37,920 -It is. - -1505 -01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:38,920 -It's very simple. - -1506 -01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:42,920 -Because, because the, the, the awesome thing about kind ones, the awesome thing about tweets is discovery. - -1507 -01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:43,920 -Oh, 100%. - -1508 -01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:44,920 -It's so condensed. - -1509 -01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:45,920 -Yeah. - -1510 -01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:46,920 -And it's like, I, but I always want to dig deeper. - -1511 -01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:49,920 -If something is interesting, I really want to dig deeper. - -1512 -01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:51,920 -And so I want to know where this tweet came from. - -1513 -01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:54,920 -Oh, it came from this thought in this blog post, those kind of things. - -1514 -01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:55,920 -And I do this manually sometimes. - -1515 -01:18:55,920 --> 01:19:02,920 -I, I'll, I'll post something, and then I'll reply to myself and link the book, or whatever, or those kind of things. - -1516 -01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:12,920 -And it's, it's just like, if, if we have some convention, or even like, if, if we have, again, like, crawlers and LMS and so on, you probably can also figure that out in some sense. - -1517 -01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:15,920 -And I just want to add the context, um, below. - -1518 -01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:18,920 -I actually show you like, my, my line already does something like that, a little bit. - -1519 -01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:20,920 -That's where the idea came from in some sense. - -1520 -01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:23,920 -Because I have the summary, and then I have like the transcript. - -1521 -01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:26,920 -I have to do, I have the things that I just plop it out under it. - -1522 -01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:31,920 -And so there's like, that would make such a nice kind of different way of, - -1523 -01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:33,920 -you know, viewing at stuff. - -1524 -01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:37,920 -And, and I'm very against, I'm very against just for the record. - -1525 -01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:42,920 -I'm very against the missing character limit of kind ones. - -1526 -01:19:42,920 --> 01:19:43,920 -Tweets should be short. - -1527 -01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:52,920 -So I'm very against, in principle, mixing blog posts and tweets, and having tweets that are like 700 characters long and so on. - -1528 -01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:53,920 -I hate that. - -1529 -01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:54,920 -Yeah. - -1530 -01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:55,920 -It's really bad, I think. - -1531 -01:19:55,920 --> 01:20:02,920 -And, and, and that's why I kind of, you know, like, like, amethyst built the blog posts in and shows the blog posts basically in the feed. - -1532 -01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:03,920 -It should pop up in the feed. - -1533 -01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:05,920 -The blog posts should not pop up in the feed. - -1534 -01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:07,920 -Only tweets should pop up in the feed. - -1535 -01:20:07,920 --> 01:20:08,920 -I think. - -1536 -01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:12,920 -But I'm not against expanding the tweet to a blog post in some sense. - -1537 -01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:13,920 -You know what I mean? - -1538 -01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:14,920 -Yeah. - -1539 -01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:15,920 -Yes. - -1540 -01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:24,920 -So one of the feed that, that, that is kind of impossible to address, uh, in, that, that I got from, from highlighter is that, - -1541 -01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:30,920 -by default, well, not by default, but when you publish something, it prompts you if you want to share it as a kind of one. - -1542 -01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:33,920 -Why? Because in, in, in certain clients. - -1543 -01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:34,920 -They want to have the discovery. - -1544 -01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:35,920 -Yeah. They want to have the discovery. - -1545 -01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:39,920 -But in, in, I'm not this, for example, it would show you immediately. - -1546 -01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:40,920 -Show the highlights. - -1547 -01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:41,920 -Straight up. - -1548 -01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:42,920 -It would show you the blog post. - -1549 -01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:43,920 -The blog post. - -1550 -01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:45,920 -And on top of that, oh, read my blog post. - -1551 -01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:47,920 -And people are like, like, dude, why are you spamming? - -1552 -01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:48,920 -Yeah. - -1553 -01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:49,920 -Yeah. - -1554 -01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:50,920 -Yeah. - -1555 -01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:51,920 -Yeah. - -1556 -01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:53,920 -I hope we'll, we'll figure all that out. - -1557 -01:20:53,920 --> 01:21:04,920 -But, but I just, I just think the, the vertical feed, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not the ideal approach. - -1558 -01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:06,920 -I think it's ideal for short text. - -1559 -01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:07,920 -I really think. - -1560 -01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:08,920 -For short text. - -1561 -01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:09,920 -Yeah. - -1562 -01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:13,920 -I mean, I, Twitter really had something and I hate kind of that it, I hate this is a strong word. - -1563 -01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:14,920 -This is what it is. - -1564 -01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:20,920 -But it's just evolved and then it evolved into like very image heavy and then it evolved into very video heavy. - -1565 -01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:26,920 -And for videos, Twitter is just not the best interface. - -1566 -01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:29,920 -So TikTok is basically for short videos. - -1567 -01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:32,920 -For long videos, it's probably YouTube or something similar. - -1568 -01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:34,920 -You know, YouTube and Netflix basically look alike. - -1569 -01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:35,920 -Yeah. - -1570 -01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:49,920 -But, but if you, if you see the evolution of, of YouTube, you see that they opened the podcast part and then they opened the, the Twitter. - -1571 -01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:54,920 -The live, yeah, the live streaming, the short and the short, but no one, I mean, it's the short. - -1572 -01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:55,920 -Yeah, yeah. - -1573 -01:21:55,920 --> 01:21:57,920 -The short is, tell me, because it's the point of vacation again. - -1574 -01:21:57,920 --> 01:22:01,920 -Yeah, because, because every, every, every, everyone's attention span is wrecked. - -1575 -01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:02,920 -Yes. - -1576 -01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:03,920 -Yeah. - -1577 -01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:05,920 -That, that is a good point about the pornification. - -1578 -01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:06,920 -It really is. - -1579 -01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:07,920 -It really is. - -1580 -01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:08,920 -Yeah. - -1581 -01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:10,920 -I mean, you made that point before, but I, I got it even better now. - -1582 -01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:11,920 -It is like cutting away. - -1583 -01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:18,920 -Like only going to the, to the essence to the act, which, which actually isn't even able to capture the whole essence. - -1584 -01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:20,920 -How could it? - -1585 -01:22:20,920 --> 01:22:21,920 -Yeah. - -1586 -01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:22,920 -How could it? - -1587 -01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:23,920 -Absolutely. - -1588 -01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:24,920 -It can't. - -1589 -01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:25,920 -Yeah. - -1590 -01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:28,920 -It's, it's, it's like listening to a three hour conversation at like two and a half hours, someone has an insight. - -1591 -01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:33,920 -If you listen through the whole thing, you're able to share in this insight and have the insight. - -1592 -01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:38,920 -If you just cut out the insight, the insight they had, and you should post it as like a shorter as a TikTok. - -1593 -01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:40,920 -It, it, it doesn't do anything. - -1594 -01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:41,920 -Because it has no context. - -1595 -01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:42,920 -It has no context. - -1596 -01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:45,920 -That's why I wrote a few weeks ago, like two days. - -1597 -01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:50,920 -And you replied, there, there is no meaning without friction. - -1598 -01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:51,920 -Oh, yeah. - -1599 -01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:52,920 -Oh, life is friction. - -1600 -01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:53,920 -No. - -1601 -01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:54,920 -You, you came for, from friction. - -1602 -01:22:54,920 --> 01:22:55,920 -Oh, yeah. - -1603 -01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:56,920 -There you go. - -1604 -01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:57,920 -Yeah. - -1605 -01:22:57,920 --> 01:22:58,920 -Yeah. - -1606 -01:22:58,920 --> 01:22:59,920 -Yeah. - -1607 -01:22:59,920 --> 01:23:00,920 -You came for friction. - -1608 -01:23:00,920 --> 01:23:01,920 -Jesus Christ. - -1609 -01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:02,920 -That's the portification of the web right there. - -1610 -01:23:02,920 --> 01:23:03,920 -It brought your brain. - -1611 -01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:04,920 -It brought your brain. - -1612 -01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:05,920 -Absolutely. - -1613 -01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:06,920 -Yeah. - -1614 -01:23:06,920 --> 01:23:13,920 -But, but I, the things that mean the most to you, the things that shape you are the things that you earn. - -1615 -01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:19,920 -You know, like, if, if you are just given the wisdom, is it wisdom? - -1616 -01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:20,920 -Yeah. - -1617 -01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:21,920 -It's just information. - -1618 -01:23:21,920 --> 01:23:23,920 -I mean, that's a, you know, nothing, nothing worth having ever comes easy. - -1619 -01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:24,920 -Yes. - -1620 -01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:28,920 -That's also the, the, I'm not sure who asked me this, but it was like, what, what do all - -1621 -01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:29,920 -the Nostra people have in common? - -1622 -01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:30,920 -And it's basically that. - -1623 -01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:32,920 -They are okay with doing the hard thing. - -1624 -01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:37,920 -Everyone who's on Nostra is okay with not being spoon fed and actually have to figure all this shit out on their own. - -1625 -01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:39,920 -And it is actually still really hard. - -1626 -01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:43,920 -Kind of getting set up, figuring out how all this stuff works and so on. - -1627 -01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:47,920 -And, and, and, and you have to build it up in a way until you land on a. - -1628 -01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:50,920 -I have to feel ready to follow the age you have to. - -1629 -01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:52,920 -It's like building your own house in some sense. - -1630 -01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:53,920 -Yeah. - -1631 -01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:54,920 -100%. - -1632 -01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:55,920 -You have to build it in a work. - -1633 -01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:58,920 -But have you ever built like a table or some shit like that? - -1634 -01:23:58,920 --> 01:23:59,920 -Oh, yeah. - -1635 -01:23:59,920 --> 01:24:05,920 -And the table sucks compared to like a media table and it's still your fucking table, man. - -1636 -01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:08,920 -And an Ikea table is already like a very low bar. - -1637 -01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:09,920 -Yeah. - -1638 -01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:13,920 -It sucks compared to an Ikea table, which is basically made out of paper. - -1639 -01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:16,920 -Kind of tables did you build? - -1640 -01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:17,920 -Terrible. - -1641 -01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:18,920 -Terrible. - -1642 -01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:19,920 -Terrible. - -1643 -01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:29,920 -But yeah, no, but I, I really think all of the people have that in common and it is kind of like everyone in the, on Nostra basically right now in some sense. - -1644 -01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:34,920 -And, and the, and the opposite of that, and you said these at some point. - -1645 -01:24:34,920 --> 01:24:43,920 -And I think it captures it perfectly that, that TikTok, like you said before, that, that, that they did almost everything perfect when you are optimizing for that. - -1646 -01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:44,920 -It's short videos. - -1647 -01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:46,920 -It's straight to the payoff. - -1648 -01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:47,920 -Right? - -1649 -01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:48,920 -Also straight into the amygdala. - -1650 -01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:50,920 -Straight into your eyeballs and into your brain. - -1651 -01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:52,920 -And, and you don't have to think about the content. - -1652 -01:24:52,920 --> 01:24:56,920 -And you don't have, there is such little friction that you don't even have to just want to watch. - -1653 -01:24:56,920 --> 01:24:57,920 -Yeah. - -1654 -01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:01,920 -Like you just opened the up and you're, you start receiving a fucking dump. - -1655 -01:25:01,920 --> 01:25:11,920 -But, but then one, to be one of the interesting things is that there is a lot of emotional gensiers crying on TikTok. - -1656 -01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:14,920 -And, and you, like you know that's a thing. - -1657 -01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:15,920 -I'm not sure. - -1658 -01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:16,920 -Yeah. - -1659 -01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:17,920 -Well, yeah, yeah. - -1660 -01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:20,920 -Like all the girls are only emotional and, and filming them how they have. - -1661 -01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:22,920 -And, and, and sharing that. - -1662 -01:25:22,920 --> 01:25:28,920 -And you watch that and it, it's like a very vulnerable moment of a person, right? - -1663 -01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:31,920 -And you're sharing in that moment, but it's a lurker. - -1664 -01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:33,920 -And, and that's not a connection. - -1665 -01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:36,920 -That's not a human, but he, but he uses this. - -1666 -01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:38,920 -I, I've been using like these ideas. - -1667 -01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:41,920 -That's, that's also, it's a growth hack and engagement bait because we know it really works. - -1668 -01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:42,920 -It's like a baby crying, you know. - -1669 -01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:43,920 -Right. - -1670 -01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:44,920 -Like everyone has to pay attention. - -1671 -01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:48,920 -A baby cries and you are, you are hardwired to pay attention. - -1672 -01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:54,920 -Everyone is going to stop whatever they're doing and they are going to try to attend to the baby and watch what's going on and so on. - -1673 -01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:55,920 -And it's the same effect. - -1674 -01:25:55,920 --> 01:25:56,920 -So they figured this out. - -1675 -01:25:56,920 --> 01:25:57,920 -It's like engagement bait on Twitter. - -1676 -01:25:57,920 --> 01:25:58,920 -Right. - -1677 -01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:02,920 -The people that are doing engagement bait on Twitter, they figured out how this stuff works out. - -1678 -01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:03,920 -Sources. - -1679 -01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:12,920 -And, and, and I think that's just the, you know, TikTok, Gen Z, teenage girl way of, of doing that in some sense. - -1680 -01:26:12,920 --> 01:26:23,920 -But, but it's, it's not exclusively that, but I believe, but, but it's, but, but it is again coming back to the medium being the message. - -1681 -01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:31,920 -That the fact that it's so high fidelity and it's video and we are really good at reading faces and reading emotions and so on. - -1682 -01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:35,920 -Of course, all the videos are going to be about faces and emotions. - -1683 -01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:36,920 -You know what I mean? - -1684 -01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:37,920 -Yeah. - -1685 -01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:38,920 -Yeah. - -1686 -01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:39,920 -Absolutely. - -1687 -01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:41,920 -It's like it doesn't work on a pure text environment. - -1688 -01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:42,920 -It just doesn't work. - -1689 -01:26:42,920 --> 01:26:43,920 -Yeah. - -1690 -01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:45,920 -It's like a poor text Twitter tweet environment. - -1691 -01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:48,920 -It's going to be witty, snarky, short comments, those kind of things. - -1692 -01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:50,920 -Which is what Twitter basically was. - -1693 -01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:53,920 -Which goes back to, it's a theater. - -1694 -01:26:53,920 --> 01:26:54,920 -It is. - -1695 -01:26:54,920 --> 01:26:55,920 -Yeah. - -1696 -01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:56,920 -Twitter is not real life. - -1697 -01:26:56,920 --> 01:26:57,920 -Not really. - -1698 -01:26:57,920 --> 01:26:58,920 -TikTok also not. - -1699 -01:26:58,920 --> 01:26:59,920 -Yeah. - -1700 -01:26:59,920 --> 01:27:01,920 -It's funny, right? - -1701 -01:27:01,920 --> 01:27:11,920 -But, but I've been, I've been playing with this idea of, we, we mentioned briefly and then we started talking about lurking. - -1702 -01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:12,920 -Yeah. - -1703 -01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:13,920 -Yeah. - -1704 -01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:14,920 -Yeah. - -1705 -01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:15,920 -You mentioned that the exhibition is part of it basically. - -1706 -01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:16,920 -Yeah. - -1707 -01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:21,920 -It's interesting that the vast majority of internet use is lurking. - -1708 -01:27:21,920 --> 01:27:22,920 -99%. - -1709 -01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:26,920 -Which is every, every guy who builds a client or does anything needs to know that's statistic. - -1710 -01:27:26,920 --> 01:27:27,920 -Yeah. - -1711 -01:27:27,920 --> 01:27:28,920 -99% of people are. - -1712 -01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:35,920 -And it's, it's such a weird concept that we didn't have a word beyond voyeurism. - -1713 -01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:36,920 -Yeah. - -1714 -01:27:36,920 --> 01:27:37,920 -Before the internet. - -1715 -01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:38,920 -Yeah. - -1716 -01:27:38,920 --> 01:27:45,920 -And if you, like, if you, we were to sit down and have a coffee and we're having a conversation and there are 200 people surrounding us. - -1717 -01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:46,920 -Yeah. - -1718 -01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:47,920 -We would think this is. - -1719 -01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:48,920 -200,000. - -1720 -01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:49,920 -Yeah. - -1721 -01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:50,920 -Yeah. - -1722 -01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:51,920 -Yeah. - -1723 -01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:52,920 -What the fuck? - -1724 -01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:53,920 -Why are all these people there? - -1725 -01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:54,920 -It's just listening. - -1726 -01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:55,920 -They're just not saying anything. - -1727 -01:27:55,920 --> 01:27:56,920 -It is in real life. - -1728 -01:27:56,920 --> 01:27:57,920 -It's so weird. - -1729 -01:27:57,920 --> 01:27:58,920 -Yeah. - -1730 -01:27:58,920 --> 01:27:59,920 -But there's friction, right? - -1731 -01:27:59,920 --> 01:28:01,920 -If you are there, we can see you. - -1732 -01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:02,920 -Yeah. - -1733 -01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:03,920 -And there's friction. - -1734 -01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:04,920 -You, you would be out of place. - -1735 -01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:05,920 -Yeah. - -1736 -01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:06,920 -But in the internet, that's the norm. - -1737 -01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:07,920 -Yeah. - -1738 -01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:08,920 -The default? - -1739 -01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:09,920 -The norm is that everyone's watching. - -1740 -01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:10,920 -Basically. - -1741 -01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:11,920 -Yeah. - -1742 -01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:12,920 -Yes. - -1743 -01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:26,920 -And what I've been thinking is that it's kind of like, if your whole intake, food intake is like marshmallows, you're not hungry. - -1744 -01:28:26,920 --> 01:28:27,920 -You are malnourished. - -1745 -01:28:27,920 --> 01:28:32,920 -You're fucking not hungry because you just ate, like, duck marshmallows, right? - -1746 -01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:33,920 -And this is kind of the same. - -1747 -01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:41,920 -People are fulfilling their social connection needs by watching others cry on TikTok. - -1748 -01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:43,920 -That's a good way of putting it. - -1749 -01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:46,920 -You're kind of socially malnourished. - -1750 -01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:47,920 -Yes. - -1751 -01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:48,920 -Yes. - -1752 -01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:50,920 -That's why we seek realness and we seek connection. - -1753 -01:28:50,920 --> 01:28:51,920 -Yeah. - -1754 -01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:56,920 -Because we are surrounded by it and we are as malnourished as ever. - -1755 -01:28:56,920 --> 01:28:57,920 -Yeah. - -1756 -01:28:57,920 --> 01:28:58,920 -Yeah. - -1757 -01:28:58,920 --> 01:28:59,920 -No, that's a good point. - -1758 -01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:00,920 -That's a good point. - -1759 -01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:02,920 -I think that Nostar can provide, can help with that. - -1760 -01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:04,920 -It's not going to replace real connection, those kind of things. - -1761 -01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:05,920 -I completely agree. - -1762 -01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:06,920 -I completely agree. - -1763 -01:29:06,920 --> 01:29:07,920 -I don't think... - -1764 -01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:10,920 -You know, like, just talking about random shit and agreeing all the time. - -1765 -01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:12,920 -That's what the models do, right? - -1766 -01:29:12,920 --> 01:29:14,920 -You are so wrong, man. - -1767 -01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:16,920 -No, but it's... - -1768 -01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:22,920 -I think that's what both Web of Trust and Saps kind of bring realness in some sense. - -1769 -01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:24,920 -I think what we still need is... - -1770 -01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:26,920 -The Web of Trust is kind of... - -1771 -01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:29,920 -It's the first iteration that we have now. - -1772 -01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:31,920 -I think the one thing that we really need is, like, - -1773 -01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:34,920 -there's a difference between a follow and I actually trust this person. - -1774 -01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:37,920 -And we talked about this also as trust being a vector and it's like, - -1775 -01:29:37,920 --> 01:29:40,920 -I trust you for, you know, your thoughts on Nostar and Bitcoin or whatever, - -1776 -01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:41,920 -or your technical expertise. - -1777 -01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:43,920 -I don't trust you when it goes to... - -1778 -01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:44,920 -Building tables. - -1779 -01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:45,920 -Exactly. - -1780 -01:29:45,920 --> 01:29:46,920 -Building tables. - -1781 -01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:47,920 -Not so much. - -1782 -01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:52,920 -Your opinion on woodwork can be disregarded. - -1783 -01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:54,920 -But it's also... - -1784 -01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:57,920 -Yeah, it's really hard and messy to model all these stuff. - -1785 -01:29:57,920 --> 01:29:59,920 -I think maybe LLMs can help with that as well because, again, - -1786 -01:29:59,920 --> 01:30:02,920 -they are really good with the messiness. - -1787 -01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:03,920 -Yeah. - -1788 -01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:06,920 -Because modeling, trying to model it precisely is kind of... - -1789 -01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:07,920 -It's a falter. - -1790 -01:30:07,920 --> 01:30:09,920 -It's semantic web all over. - -1791 -01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:10,920 -Exactly. - -1792 -01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:11,920 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -1793 -01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:13,920 -And most people don't know I come from this world. - -1794 -01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:16,920 -I know how misguided the semantic web is. - -1795 -01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:22,920 -I spend a lot of time, you know, trying to build everything into triples. - -1796 -01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:25,920 -It is very Tommy, so it fits. - -1797 -01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:26,920 -Yeah. - -1798 -01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:27,920 -RDF, everything. - -1799 -01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:28,920 -It's like... - -1800 -01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:29,920 -Yeah. - -1801 -01:30:29,920 --> 01:30:31,920 -That's good times. - -1802 -01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:32,920 -Good times. - -1803 -01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:35,920 -No, ontologies don't really work as we think they will. - -1804 -01:30:35,920 --> 01:30:37,920 -You hear that huddle about? - -1805 -01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:40,920 -If people would just study their philosophy, they would know. - -1806 -01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:41,920 -They would know. - -1807 -01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:44,920 -You cannot model the world perfectly in like... - -1808 -01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:47,920 -But that is an extremely interesting idea, LLMs. - -1809 -01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:53,920 -Because they can get all the broad data and make something out of it at scale, - -1810 -01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:55,920 -which is what ontologies want to do. - -1811 -01:30:55,920 --> 01:30:57,920 -But they will also always be wrong. - -1812 -01:30:57,920 --> 01:30:58,920 -Yes, yes. - -1813 -01:30:58,920 --> 01:30:59,920 -But that's the difference. - -1814 -01:30:59,920 --> 01:31:04,920 -That's how they differ from ontologies and logical systems because they will be internally right - -1815 -01:31:04,920 --> 01:31:06,920 -and free of contradictions in the best case. - -1816 -01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:07,920 -Again, but... - -1817 -01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:08,920 -Call me a commie point. - -1818 -01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:09,920 -No, no, no. - -1819 -01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:10,920 -Absolutely. - -1820 -01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:11,920 -It is a commie. - -1821 -01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:12,920 -It is a commie world view. - -1822 -01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:15,920 -The idea that you cannot have... - -1823 -01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:17,920 -The idea that you cannot have... - -1824 -01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:19,920 -And data triplets are not the problem. - -1825 -01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:20,920 -It's communism. - -1826 -01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:22,920 -And we can't tell me that. - -1827 -01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:24,920 -And we can't tell me everybody is a commie. - -1828 -01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:25,920 -Yeah, yeah. - -1829 -01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:26,920 -Commies are at fault. - -1830 -01:31:26,920 --> 01:31:27,920 -Yeah. - -1831 -01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:29,920 -No, but you just have to also be aware. - -1832 -01:31:29,920 --> 01:31:32,920 -I mean, it's funny how LLMs really are like humans in some sense. - -1833 -01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:36,920 -It's like, if you're really smart, you also are really good at hallucinating and making stuff up. - -1834 -01:31:36,920 --> 01:31:37,920 -Oh, 100%. - -1835 -01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:38,920 -You're really good at bullshitting and so on. - -1836 -01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:40,920 -And LLMs are experts at bullshitting and hallucinating. - -1837 -01:31:40,920 --> 01:31:47,920 -I remember, when was it, like, two years ago or so, that you mentioned that? - -1838 -01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:51,920 -That the hallucination part was like a key component? - -1839 -01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:53,920 -You can't get rid of it. - -1840 -01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:54,920 -Yeah. - -1841 -01:31:54,920 --> 01:31:56,920 -And I was like, I did not understand it at the time. - -1842 -01:31:56,920 --> 01:31:57,920 -Yeah. - -1843 -01:31:57,920 --> 01:31:58,920 -You can't get rid of it. - -1844 -01:31:58,920 --> 01:32:03,920 -It is a requirement for creativity and thinking, basically, because you have to hallucinate - -1845 -01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:06,920 -what the right solution might be. - -1846 -01:32:06,920 --> 01:32:07,920 -Yeah. - -1847 -01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:09,920 -That's how you come up with new stuff. - -1848 -01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:12,920 -But if something has to ground you in reality and if you're not grounded in reality, which - -1849 -01:32:12,920 --> 01:32:18,920 -LLMs definitely aren't, then you just go out of bounds and you hallucinate more and more. - -1850 -01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:20,920 -That's what I haven't played with that yet. - -1851 -01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:27,920 -But it's one of the things that I want to do soon is playing with local temperatures when one - -1852 -01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:28,920 -is showing up. - -1853 -01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:33,920 -You know, like, the architect agent, let it hallucinate. - -1854 -01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:34,920 -Yeah. - -1855 -01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:35,920 -And then they call it one? - -1856 -01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:36,920 -No, no, no, no, be structured. - -1857 -01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:37,920 -Absolutely. - -1858 -01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:38,920 -I think that's what we will work best. - -1859 -01:32:38,920 --> 01:32:43,920 -That's what I meant before with, like, the split between the experts and the kind of big - -1860 -01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:44,920 -picture thinkers. - -1861 -01:32:44,920 --> 01:32:49,920 -The big picture thinkers, they have to be allowed to go wild and hallucinate and kind of make - -1862 -01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:51,920 -stuff up and throw shit at the wall in some sense. - -1863 -01:32:51,920 --> 01:32:56,920 -And what would be cool is using exactly the same system with the same front, everything - -1864 -01:32:56,920 --> 01:33:01,920 -the same and just five different toggles, five different settings on temperature. - -1865 -01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:02,920 -That's also what you can do. - -1866 -01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:04,920 -And see what the fuck comes out. - -1867 -01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:08,920 -Yeah, you can just do it like, do tiny durations of that and compare it. - -1868 -01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:10,920 -Run tests on it. - -1869 -01:33:10,920 --> 01:33:11,920 -That's good. - -1870 -01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:12,920 -I'm pretty cooked. - -1871 -01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:13,920 -What did you say? - -1872 -01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:14,920 -Yeah, me too. - -1873 -01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:16,920 -I'm thirsty as fuck too. - -1874 -01:33:16,920 --> 01:33:17,920 -You thirsty? - -1875 -01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:19,920 -Are we back at the pornification? - -1876 -01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:23,920 -I know you thirsty problem. - -1877 -01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:25,920 -We can fix that. - -1878 -01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:27,920 -I'm not that thirsty. - -1879 -01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:29,920 -Let's have a coffee or something. - -1880 -01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:35,920 -And I actually, if you still have like 20 minutes of time or so, I want to try the, what is - -1881 -01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:38,920 -Summer Engineering recording slash blog posts. - -1882 -01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:39,920 -Let's go. - -1883 -01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:43,920 -Because that will force me to actually build the fucking client. - -1884 -01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:44,920 -If I have the data. - -1885 -01:33:44,920 --> 01:33:46,920 -There's an mp3 there. - -1886 -01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:47,920 -It's just cheating. - -1887 -01:33:47,920 --> 01:33:51,920 -And there's a blog post and I'm going to produce a tweet. - -1888 -01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:54,920 -I'll have to force myself to do that. - -1889 -01:33:54,920 --> 01:33:56,920 -How hard can it be? - -1890 -01:33:56,920 --> 01:33:58,920 -It's like 20 minutes in a garage. - -1891 -01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:02,920 -That's my current life. - -1892 -01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:09,920 -As soon as everyone is asleep at the house, I'll go down in my vibe chamber. - -1893 -01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:11,920 -The vibe chamber in the garage. - -1894 -01:34:11,920 --> 01:34:13,920 -I can stand again now. - -1895 -01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:15,920 -I can walk again now a little bit. - -1896 -01:34:15,920 --> 01:34:18,920 -So I'll just plop myself down there, vibe code for an hour or so. - -1897 -01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:20,920 -And then I'm going to call it a day. - -1898 -01:34:20,920 --> 01:34:24,920 -Every time I just leave, it's still doing stuff. - -1899 -01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:30,920 -It's just like really large prompt, yellow mode, hit enter, go to sleep. - -1900 -01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:33,920 -And when I wake up, it's a new world. - -1901 -01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:35,920 -My heart disc might be wiped. - -1902 -01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:36,920 -The garage might be on fire. - -1903 -01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:37,920 -You'll never know. - -1904 -01:34:37,920 --> 01:34:40,920 -Your star is completely drained. - -1905 -01:34:40,920 --> 01:34:44,920 -No, but it's so funny because I hope the recording worked this time. - -1906 -01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:46,920 -I'm getting better at pressing record as well and so on. - -1907 -01:34:46,920 --> 01:34:50,920 -And once I hit save, the pipeline in the garage is going to kick in, - -1908 -01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:52,920 -and it's going to kick in the transcription and everything. - -1909 -01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:57,920 -I don't have it there yet where the goal is to auto-normalize it - -1910 -01:34:57,920 --> 01:34:59,920 -and auto-upload it to blossom and so on. - -1911 -01:34:59,920 --> 01:35:01,920 -But you know, like next week, I'll have it. - -1912 -01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:02,920 -It's like five minutes over. - -1913 -01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:03,920 -It's fine. - -1914 -01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:04,920 -Not even. - -1915 -01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:05,920 -Not even. - -1916 -01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:07,920 -But yeah, we're getting there. - -1917 -01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:09,920 -It's a strange new world, but I like it. - -1918 -01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:10,920 -Vites are high. - -1919 -01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:11,920 -Vites are high. - -1920 -01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:12,920 -Vites are high. - -1921 -01:35:12,920 --> 01:35:13,920 -Vites are high. - -1922 -01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:15,920 -That's the most important one. - -1923 -01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:16,920 -All right. - -1924 -01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:17,920 -Let's see if they're worked. - -1925 -01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:19,920 -I'm going to hit stop or I'm going to hit save. - -1926 -01:35:19,920 --> 01:35:20,920 -Oh, yeah. - -1927 -01:35:20,920 --> 01:35:21,920 -Let's do that. - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/09 - No Strudelutions - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/09 - No Strudelutions - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index 5090001e..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/09 - No Strudelutions - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,39 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "No Strudelutions" (Episode 09) - -**Context:** A free-flowing conversation touching on iteration culture (“no strudelutions”), experimentation islands, and scaling Sovereign Engineering mindsets beyond the cohort. - -## Core Themes & Insights - -1. **No Strudelutions Philosophy** - • Avoid over-engineering fancy layers (“strudel”) before validating the core dough. - • Ship smallest viable slice, gather feedback, iterate. - -2. **Islands of Experimentation** - • Physical retreats/co-living stints give builders temporal focus and peer pressure. - • Sovereign Engineering cohorts function as pop-up islands where wild ideas cross-pollinate. - -3. **Cross-Domain Inspiration** - • Story swaps span food culture, urban design, and software—showing how small hacks propagate. - • Encourages participants to borrow techniques outside tech (e.g., bakery mise-en-place applied to coding). - -4. **Constraints Breed Creativity** - • Limited time (weekly demos) and no external funding force clever, compact solutions. - • Echoed in choosing lean tool-chains (Nostr, Lightning, Zig) over heavyweight stacks. - -5. **Documenting the Journey** - • Advocate recording demo sessions, walks, and post-mortems; raw logs become later teaching assets. - • Blossom/Nostr publishing keeps history public and remixable. - -6. **Scaling Sovereign Engineering Vibe Without Dilution** - • Danger: growing cohorts too large diminishes intimacy and feedback loops. - • Proposal: spawn parallel micro-cohorts instead of megaprograms. - -## Implications for Sovereign Engineering Cohorts - -• Keep cohort size ~21; spin off new batches rather than expand one. -• Maintain “no strudelutions” checklist: minimal UI, raw feature, real users, shipped in <1 week. -• Record and publish each iteration publicly to inspire future cohorts. - ---- - -Skip the sugary layers; bake the simple loaf, share a bite, refine the recipe. That’s Sovereign Engineering—no strudelutions required. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/09 - No Strudelutions.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/09 - No Strudelutions.srt deleted file mode 100644 index 32a951a2..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/09 - No Strudelutions.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,7288 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,360 -Okay, good. - -2 -00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,320 -So I've been listening to some of your past conversations. - -3 -00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,440 -I didn't even know that you were talking about this stuff publicly already. - -4 -00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,240 -Yeah, that's a twister. - -5 -00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:20,560 -Yeah, I would say that looks a lot more twister. - -6 -00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,440 -There's rain on the ocean and there's like a... - -7 -00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:25,440 -How do you call it? - -8 -00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:26,440 -The water hose, basically? - -9 -00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,160 -Yeah, I think it's a water hose when we're over the water hose. - -10 -00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:36,120 -So it's sucking up water so that it can rain down on us later. - -11 -00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,480 -I've always thought of seeing those on land. - -12 -00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:39,640 -Yeah, but that looks wild. - -13 -00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,360 -It's very, very far away, so it's very, very big, actually. - -14 -00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:44,840 -Yeah, yeah. - -15 -00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:45,880 -That looks really cool. - -16 -00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:46,400 -It's nuts. - -17 -00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,520 -Yeah, let me try to... - -18 -00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,960 -Maybe I can snap a picture that looks like something. - -19 -00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:53,320 -It definitely doesn't look like a cloud. - -20 -00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,760 -We can post it later. - -21 -00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:58,360 -And it's transforming. - -22 -00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,800 -Looks like it's going out now, it's going up off the water. - -23 -00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:07,320 -Yeah, the weather is something I didn't factor into the equation of, you know, - -24 -00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:10,840 -just taking developers for a walk and talking with them for an hour. - -25 -00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,480 -I was like, oh, it's always going to be sunny and perfect, - -26 -00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,840 -but we had hurricanes, basically, and rain, lots of rain. - -27 -00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,480 -So I didn't think, I didn't think of this through. - -28 -00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:26,680 -Just being outside in general. - -29 -00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:33,240 -But yeah, it's the first kind of conversation where I prepared a little bit, - -30 -00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:38,120 -so I listened to some of your past conversations where you're trying to - -31 -00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,840 -explain Noster to the podcasting to point out people. - -32 -00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,680 -That's probably good because I don't remember this. - -33 -00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:44,920 -What I talked about a lot of those conversations. - -34 -00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:51,800 -It was really enlightening in some sense because I've been so embedded on the Noster - -35 -00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,440 -side that I don't even think about it anymore in some sense. - -36 -00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,880 -How it is different from other things. - -37 -00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:01,240 -You get used to it fast. - -38 -00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,560 -Yeah, and we mentioned this yesterday, I think, very briefly. - -39 -00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:06,520 -Or was it two days ago? - -40 -00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,000 -I think it was two days ago where it's just like, okay, - -41 -00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,400 -there's a small little difference, but it actually makes a huge difference. - -42 -00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:14,760 -It has a huge effect. - -43 -00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,200 -And the small little difference is basically that the data is signed. - -44 -00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,120 -And so that moves the power from the servers, - -45 -00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,920 -which usually holds the power, to the key holders. - -46 -00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:28,280 -And that's also why the stuff can be in 100 different places. - -47 -00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,160 -Because you have assurances that it's the same thing. - -48 -00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:36,280 -Yeah, it opens up a weird, it actually moves the data away from the service, - -49 -00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,000 -which doesn't sound like much. - -50 -00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,760 -But then it lets you... - -51 -00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:42,280 -It sends the data free in some sense. - -52 -00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,640 -Yeah, which then brings up the most really difficult question, - -53 -00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:46,600 -and really interesting questions. - -54 -00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,280 -Do you need the service anymore? - -55 -00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:49,800 -Which is like something we've never... - -56 -00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,040 -Like literally since the beginning, the internet's always been... - -57 -00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,360 -What's the point of the service in some sense? - -58 -00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,000 -Because historically, because I still think we need services in some sense. - -59 -00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,920 -And we also, we still need servers. - -60 -00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:04,120 -Like there was this whole discussion, like our relay still servers, - -61 -00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:04,920 -and those kind of things. - -62 -00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:07,320 -And you were like, yeah, kind of, but also not in some sense. - -63 -00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:08,680 -I mean, it was really interesting. - -64 -00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,280 -It's always convenient to run code faster on someone else's machine. - -65 -00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:12,760 -Yeah. - -66 -00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:13,880 -So like that's a service. - -67 -00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,120 -You will have specialisation. - -68 -00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,280 -A server is basically a specialized computer, - -69 -00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,120 -and the relay is also a specialized computer. - -70 -00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:21,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -71 -00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,080 -But they are different in nature a little bit. - -72 -00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,040 -And it all relates to cryptographic signatures and identities. - -73 -00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,160 -It's like, basically, Pablo and I talked about this a lot, - -74 -00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,240 -but in a kind of a different context. - -75 -00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,280 -And the context is like, you don't care. - -76 -00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,800 -Like in the nostril world, you don't have to care where the stuff comes from. - -77 -00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,080 -And you mentioned this briefly as well, - -78 -00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:40,680 -where it's like, it can come from a USB stick. - -79 -00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:41,640 -It doesn't matter. - -80 -00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:42,680 -You know, it can come from... - -81 -00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,640 -I don't care where the data comes from, - -82 -00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,320 -as long as it lands on my client or lands on my machine, - -83 -00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,280 -and I can check the signatures, then we're fine. - -84 -00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,200 -Then I know I don't care about the source in some sense. - -85 -00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:57,400 -And it means the same thing. - -86 -00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:58,360 -It means the same thing. - -87 -00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,600 -It's like you said. - -88 -00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,240 -That's why you can set the data free. - -89 -00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,480 -That's the mechanism that sets the data free in some sense. - -90 -00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:09,640 -But you still need... - -91 -00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:13,640 -I mean, we see this already. - -92 -00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:14,920 -We still have... - -93 -00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,000 -Relay still have centralising effects, of course. - -94 -00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,520 -It's still convenient to have stuff in one place - -95 -00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,360 -for indexing and search and other things. - -96 -00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:23,560 -Really indexing and search, - -97 -00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,560 -but also just because latency is a nice thing to have. - -98 -00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,160 -Like low latency is a nice thing to have. - -99 -00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:30,760 -Because if you have to wait, you know, - -100 -00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,360 -if we were synchronizing large amounts of events every week, - -101 -00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,920 -it would be inconvenient to only get an update - -102 -00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,640 -from people you follow, like every week with all their notes. - -103 -00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,120 -Yeah, and we see the specialization in a really, - -104 -00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,960 -relay world as well right now, right? - -105 -00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,440 -I mean, we have different kinds of relays and so on. - -106 -00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:47,560 -What's your take on all that? - -107 -00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:48,840 -How do you think about this? - -108 -00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,640 -This evolution where we have like... - -109 -00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:52,680 -I mean, if you open anethys, - -110 -00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,040 -you have like six different ways of setting a relay. - -111 -00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:57,560 -Yeah, the configuration page. - -112 -00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,320 -I don't know anybody who actually understands that. - -113 -00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:03,640 -Yeah, the special is really... - -114 -00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,560 -I mean, it's the natural way of... - -115 -00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,320 -The natural way things are going to go - -116 -00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,800 -because you want to make everything... - -117 -00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,080 -It starts out as a dumb relay, - -118 -00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,200 -and then eventually you want to start... - -119 -00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:15,880 -If nothing else, you want to start like - -120 -00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:17,640 -categorizing the data, like putting stuff... - -121 -00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,720 -Like, the inbox and the box relay is a good example of that. - -122 -00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,800 -Like, what goes in the inbox relay is stuff - -123 -00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,440 -that other people want me to care about. - -124 -00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,920 -What goes in my out box relay is what I want them to see. - -125 -00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,760 -So that's already like two specialized categories right there. - -126 -00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,360 -Another one would be your draft, - -127 -00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,280 -your private things, and so on. - -128 -00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:37,800 -I'm still not sold on that. - -129 -00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:38,520 -I don't know about that. - -130 -00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:41,400 -It's like the DMs. - -131 -00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,400 -Like, it's everything under one key, - -132 -00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,280 -and then it's a lot of... - -133 -00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:47,880 -Because I'm kind of in the mindset of... - -134 -00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,640 -I've been thinking recently about the encryption... - -135 -00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,680 -Encryption and decryption functions in Noster. - -136 -00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,080 -And the signing functions by extension. - -137 -00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:02,840 -Kind of like the most expensive thing we have. - -138 -00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,920 -And the payoff doesn't seem worth it in my mind. - -139 -00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:07,720 -To be... - -140 -00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,280 -To have a draft system where you're constantly - -141 -00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:12,440 -doing an encryption and signing. - -142 -00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:13,000 -Yeah. - -143 -00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,760 -Just to like save something. - -144 -00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,560 -When we have local storage, we have personal servers. - -145 -00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,600 -I'm just thinking about it in the context of the remote signers. - -146 -00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,080 -Trying to make remote signers actually viable, - -147 -00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,960 -or offline signers, or hardware signers, anything like that. - -148 -00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,720 -The issue with the local storage is it doesn't follow you around. - -149 -00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,080 -So if I open a different device and I want to continue working on a draft, - -150 -00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:35,720 -what do I do? - -151 -00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,840 -It depends on how you manage your local storage. - -152 -00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:43,640 -Because local storage can be something like the browser local storage, - -153 -00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,080 -which doesn't follow you. - -154 -00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,280 -Or a documents folder that synchronize with iCloud. - -155 -00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:50,520 -Oh yeah, I mean, you're a sick thing guy as well. - -156 -00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,560 -I mean, I could make this work. - -157 -00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:56,840 -I think that's a big ask. - -158 -00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,400 -Do the synchronization yourself. - -159 -00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,200 -I mean, to me, that's part of the magic of Noster. - -160 -00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,360 -That all the stuff follows you around. - -161 -00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,400 -And in the case of Nip 60 and those kind of things, - -162 -00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,960 -including your money and everything else. - -163 -00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,800 -I think it is a very powerful thing to have, - -164 -00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:21,400 -that you don't need to think about anything in some sense. - -165 -00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:27,320 -You just log in with your Noster identity and all the stuff is there. - -166 -00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,360 -I think that is a massive, massive killer feature. - -167 -00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:36,840 -I think every step towards destroying some of that is in some sense a step in the right, - -168 -00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:37,720 -in the wrong direction. - -169 -00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:39,640 -That's how I see it. - -170 -00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,480 -But maybe, you know, like, I don't know. - -171 -00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,360 -The drafts, I guess the drafts are useful. - -172 -00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,680 -Because I have, I have used them like the article drafts popping up on various devices. - -173 -00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:57,720 -But I guess they're just, they're not implemented in any good way right now. - -174 -00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:04,600 -I guess it's my complaint with a lot of a lot of existing Noster implementations and features - -175 -00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,760 -and clients is it's implemented in such a way that the user doesn't see it. - -176 -00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:11,800 -That's why I vote Noster. - -177 -00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,200 -I can't trust the drafts because I can't see that it actually saved it. - -178 -00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,040 -It just says, I did something. - -179 -00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,800 -I don't know, did it do something and get to the relay? - -180 -00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:25,960 -I can't trust the system yet. - -181 -00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:34,120 -You spoke about this in the past, kind of, you know, how UIs and systems in general - -182 -00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,040 -like should never ever lie to you. - -183 -00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,080 -And if they don't lie to you for a long time, - -184 -00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,400 -that's what builds up the trust in the system in some sense. - -185 -00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:42,920 -Is that part of it? - -186 -00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,960 -Like, do you want to, do you want to, like, you're very adamant about - -187 -00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,560 -showing the users what happens underneath the hood in some sense. - -188 -00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:55,560 -Yeah. - -189 -00:08:55,560 --> 00:08:57,480 -Do you think it's important for most users? - -190 -00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,040 -Or is it more personal preference of viewers? - -191 -00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,040 -Or how do you think about it? - -192 -00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:07,400 -I think it's necessary for all applications. - -193 -00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:13,400 -It's just how you show it can change based on, you know, - -194 -00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,240 -how you might say, know me friendly or how slick you want the UI to look. - -195 -00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:22,440 -But I haven't been doing web development very long. - -196 -00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,960 -But the little I've learned so far, you know, - -197 -00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,040 -because I came from the applications I was working on before Noster, - -198 -00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:37,320 -were like internal company applications for managing like financial stuff, - -199 -00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:38,840 -like internal company financial stuff. - -200 -00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,600 -So it was like the auditors and the dashboards and things. - -201 -00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:44,360 -Yeah, dashboards and stuff. - -202 -00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,760 -People like looking to like, you know, what are the customers, - -203 -00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,240 -OS, what money do we owe them and stuff like that. - -204 -00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:55,560 -And so it kind of developed a way of like you never, - -205 -00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:57,480 -even if you have to do another HTTP request, - -206 -00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,880 -even if you do another API request, you never show cash data, - -207 -00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,320 -you never show inaccurate data. - -208 -00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,320 -And if it's stuck, you show something. - -209 -00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:08,680 -It's like, it's not, it's loading. - -210 -00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:11,320 -It's taking longer because the users would like, - -211 -00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,040 -they're not technical users and they need to know what the like, - -212 -00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,400 -they trust the system entirely because it's their job to do that. - -213 -00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:17,960 -Yeah. - -214 -00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,200 -So if it ever showed like inaccurate data, - -215 -00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,240 -then they're just going to look at that and they're not going to wait for the refresh. - -216 -00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,400 -Yeah, and it's going to be super expensive for the company - -217 -00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,520 -because they're going to make a mistake because they work on outdated data, right? - -218 -00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:29,000 -Yeah. - -219 -00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,760 -Like it's going to be very expensive down the line. - -220 -00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,160 -So you never want to be in this situation, basically. - -221 -00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:33,240 -Yeah. - -222 -00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:34,840 -It's interesting on the narcissist side as well, - -223 -00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,920 -because you know, we have big clients to do caching, prime. - -224 -00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,840 -Which I, again, like I'm a prime fan, like don't get me wrong. - -225 -00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,080 -I think they're doing a lot of things right. - -226 -00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:52,040 -But you land in these weird situations where just you move away from the - -227 -00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,600 -noster native way of doing things and you just land in weird states. - -228 -00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,400 -And like sometimes posting takes forever for some reason, - -229 -00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,040 -because it goes through their servers and so on. - -230 -00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:08,040 -And what I like about noster proper is like it's so insanely snappy. - -231 -00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,600 -Like you are never in an outdated state in some sense. - -232 -00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,920 -You know, like you don't, you never have to wait in some sense. - -233 -00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:13,960 -That's it. - -234 -00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:14,920 -It's very immediate. - -235 -00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:15,240 -Yeah. - -236 -00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:15,720 -That's what I mean. - -237 -00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:16,840 -It's very raw and immediate. - -238 -00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,280 -Well, that's the nice thing about it is like, - -239 -00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,400 -because you can progressively load data. - -240 -00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:22,920 -The events come in like a stream. - -241 -00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:27,400 -So you can start showing the user things working immediately - -242 -00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,400 -instead of like in the tradition. - -243 -00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,240 -It's so awesome when you're developing it as well. - -244 -00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:31,720 -It's right. - -245 -00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,120 -It's like you, it goes back to like just showing the user something's happening. - -246 -00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,600 -So the user's like, like the connection's working. - -247 -00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:39,400 -There's data coming in. - -248 -00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:40,840 -It's not complete yet, but it's coming in. - -249 -00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:41,320 -Yeah. - -250 -00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,040 -And that just builds more trust with users. - -251 -00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,560 -So that you don't have, because if it just sits there and loads forever, - -252 -00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:52,680 -and then eventually shows everything, the user for like the five seconds, - -253 -00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:53,800 -wherever long it's taking to load. - -254 -00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,080 -The user doesn't know if they're offline. - -255 -00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:56,680 -Is this thing actually working or not? - -256 -00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:57,400 -Yeah, exactly. - -257 -00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,160 -It's actually the thing I do, whether I, if I want to check whether I'm online or not, - -258 -00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,480 -like if my Wi-Fi is working and this stuff, I open my nostril client and refresh it. - -259 -00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,800 -I'll know immediately, because it just, it just, you know, it's so immediate. - -260 -00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,360 -It's the quickest way I know of, basically. - -261 -00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,160 -Like everything else I'll have to, I would have to, you know, - -262 -00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,040 -like do a bogus search or something or whatever. - -263 -00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,240 -Or, yeah, yeah. - -264 -00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:26,200 -The funny thing too is like what we were talking about earlier is like getting used to it, - -265 -00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:27,400 -how quickly you get used to it. - -266 -00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:32,280 -Because I'd been building and using it for a year, as most of us have. - -267 -00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,720 -And it's like, then you go back to some of the traditional social media, - -268 -00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,000 -and it actually takes a long time for that stuff to load. - -269 -00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:40,920 -Even on like my fast connection. - -270 -00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:45,960 -Like, I mean, whatever you think traditional, like Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, - -271 -00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,000 -stuff like that, like it gets stuck loading. - -272 -00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,760 -And you're just sitting there and no data showing. - -273 -00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:52,520 -And you don't know if it's online or not. - -274 -00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:52,920 -Yeah. - -275 -00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:53,880 -It's like the nostrils. - -276 -00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:02,760 -I sometimes, you know, like venture out into the dark corners of the legacy internet as well. - -277 -00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,800 -And what's so weird to me is that you actually, you never know what it's really doing. - -278 -00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,440 -Because it's like every time I refresh something, it's a new feed. - -279 -00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:18,200 -And the algorithm tries to, you know, shove something else down my throat. - -280 -00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,560 -I'm really allergic to that now. - -281 -00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:22,360 -Where it's just like, on the nostrils, I know where I am. - -282 -00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,040 -It's like, I know how it works. - -283 -00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:30,280 -I, again, like the, in some sense, how should I put it? - -284 -00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,280 -It's, I think it relates to what you said before. - -285 -00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,680 -Like the system should be transparent and not lying to you. - -286 -00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,440 -And if someone tries to shove something down your throat, - -287 -00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,560 -because they want to sell you something, both of these are not given. - -288 -00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:45,880 -Like they're not going to be very transparent about it. - -289 -00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:50,440 -Like with the algorithm changing the feed and a lot of all the social clients is like, - -290 -00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,360 -another lie is like, you remember a video you saw five minutes ago. - -291 -00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:55,320 -Oh, you can't find it again. - -292 -00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:56,200 -You can't find it. - -293 -00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:56,840 -It's gone. - -294 -00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:57,160 -Yeah. - -295 -00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:57,560 -And it's like... - -296 -00:13:57,560 --> 00:13:59,720 -Because you were refreshed or the thing refreshed automatically. - -297 -00:13:59,720 --> 00:13:59,960 -Yeah. - -298 -00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:01,640 -It's like, did they actually post that? - -299 -00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:03,960 -And you just imagined it or was it actually there? - -300 -00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:04,760 -You can't find it. - -301 -00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:05,240 -Yeah. - -302 -00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,480 -And so it's those little things that build up where it's just... - -303 -00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:08,760 -Yeah, it's fresh. - -304 -00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:09,640 -The thing didn't work. - -305 -00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:13,720 -The step before frustration. - -306 -00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:16,200 -The step people don't notice. - -307 -00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,800 -Like a good example of the step people don't notice is like, - -308 -00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:25,160 -you click on a button and it just takes two seconds to do before it changes state. - -309 -00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,240 -Like it's not frustrating. - -310 -00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,000 -So you're not sure if you actually clicked it on? - -311 -00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:29,560 -Yeah, you're not sure. - -312 -00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,880 -For those two seconds, you're guessing yourself. - -313 -00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:32,840 -And it's not frustration. - -314 -00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,520 -It's just something else. - -315 -00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:35,000 -Yeah. - -316 -00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,400 -It's like lag in video games. - -317 -00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:38,200 -Yeah, exactly. - -318 -00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,040 -It builds the frustration. - -319 -00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,000 -You have it a few times. - -320 -00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,440 -It's like, you can deal with it. - -321 -00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,560 -But if you keep lagging, it's like, that's really just rage going. - -322 -00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:46,040 -Yeah. - -323 -00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:46,600 -Yeah. - -324 -00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:47,240 -Yeah. - -325 -00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:47,560 -Yeah. - -326 -00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,720 -No, I think all these are the issues are super interesting. - -327 -00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,800 -I use no struggle a lot for that reason. - -328 -00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,760 -Like when I want to know kind of... - -329 -00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,440 -I mean, to me, it's part client, part developer tool in some sense. - -330 -00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:00,920 -Yeah. - -331 -00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,440 -Like if I need to sign a ROI event, it's very useful. - -332 -00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,760 -If I really want to see what's happening under the hood, - -333 -00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:07,880 -it's very useful. - -334 -00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,440 -If I want to clean up some of my things, it's very useful. - -335 -00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,480 -It's a very useful client in general. - -336 -00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,800 -It has a very opinionated UI. - -337 -00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:17,800 -I did. - -338 -00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,720 -I put like hardly any work into that. - -339 -00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,080 -It's funny because I saw it grow all the time, - -340 -00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,400 -you know, like you add things and other things and other things. - -341 -00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:25,720 -Oh, yeah. - -342 -00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:26,200 -Yeah. - -343 -00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,280 -And now it's like... - -344 -00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,320 -It's the amethyst of web clients in some sense. - -345 -00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:32,600 -No offense, you know, but it's like... - -346 -00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:33,320 -It's a little take. - -347 -00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:34,680 -It's really, it's really little take. - -348 -00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:36,040 -It can do anything now, basically. - -349 -00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:37,080 -Yeah, like that's... - -350 -00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,720 -I keep taking forever and make updates to it. - -351 -00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,600 -But that's the next thing I'm trying to work on and... - -352 -00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,240 -What do you have in the pipeline on the nostril side? - -353 -00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:46,440 -What do you want to build next? - -354 -00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,200 -Half the views, these don't need to be removed, - -355 -00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,600 -or they need to be moved to a place that's easier to find. - -356 -00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,600 -So a lot of, like, there's a lot of experimental stuff in there - -357 -00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,680 -that doesn't work anymore and isn't useful. - -358 -00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,040 -How do you use it most of? - -359 -00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,040 -Like what's your main use case of the client that you build yourself? - -360 -00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,400 -The social sides, like the main timeline is useful. - -361 -00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,080 -Notifications, but then that view still sucks. - -362 -00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:10,440 -It needs to be rebuilt. - -363 -00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:11,320 -You think so, why? - -364 -00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,480 -I think it's actually not terrible at all. - -365 -00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,360 -I don't think notifications work as a timeline in nostril. - -366 -00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:22,760 -Because when I go to what I want to know what I should care about, - -367 -00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,800 -what people are tagging me on, what people are mentioning on, - -368 -00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,240 -I'm not looking for a timeline. - -369 -00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,320 -I'm not looking for the order of things that happened. - -370 -00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,040 -I'm looking for the people that tagged me, the context they tagged me in. - -371 -00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,360 -You kind of look for the most important stuff, in some sense. - -372 -00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,760 -And I have to filter, I have to dig through a timeline. - -373 -00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,480 -Like the order of the things came in doesn't really matter to me. - -374 -00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,200 -Like, and also like the zaps and the reactions. - -375 -00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,600 -Like, I don't care what time those came in. - -376 -00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:45,560 -I just kid it came in. - -377 -00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,560 -Yeah, I like that it can be filtered. - -378 -00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:48,440 -That's how I use it. - -379 -00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:53,320 -So I filter it only to revise and quote mentions and those kind of things. - -380 -00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,040 -Maybe like, now I've gotten the vibe-coding stuff. - -381 -00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:57,720 -Like, I'm trying to rebuild that cleaner. - -382 -00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:02,360 -Next, get the AI to suggest some of the layouts. - -383 -00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,920 -But my idea is to turn it into kind of a dashboard, where it's like, - -384 -00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,800 -you have the in-box style still for like comments, replies, - -385 -00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,440 -for people like replying to you or getting your attention. - -386 -00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,040 -And then you have other dashboards for things like zaps and reactions. - -387 -00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,720 -And where the data is more summarized, because that's what you want to see. - -388 -00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:19,960 -Yeah. - -389 -00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,440 -Yeah, no, I think that's right. - -390 -00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:23,000 -I think that's right. - -391 -00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,480 -I mean, I use the combination of all kinds of things. - -392 -00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,800 -In Amethyst, they have a, I'm not even sure who built it. - -393 -00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,400 -Maybe it was Vitor himself. - -394 -00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,680 -But Amethyst has a bunch of contributors that just add stuff in Vitor. - -395 -00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:35,960 -It's just like, yeah, yeah, let's add it. - -396 -00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:36,360 -Approved. - -397 -00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:37,640 -Approved, yeah, yeah. - -398 -00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:38,600 -Auto-Eck. - -399 -00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:49,160 -But they have a nice visualization of kind of, they draw a graph for the last week of, - -400 -00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,000 -you know, the zaps and other reactions and that's really neat. - -401 -00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,760 -I glance at it from time to time. - -402 -00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:55,720 -It's quite useful. - -403 -00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,480 -It's like, it's more useful than I thought it would be in some sense. - -404 -00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:00,600 -Well, that's what I want to get to. - -405 -00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,400 -That's what I want to get to, because like, I found that like, - -406 -00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,160 -if you're building dashboards, you can't put the graphs in first. - -407 -00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,600 -Because then you don't know what you're visualizing. - -408 -00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,640 -You got to put the data there and I got to figure out how to massage the data into like, - -409 -00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:13,480 -digestible format. - -410 -00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:14,680 -And then you put the pretty graphs. - -411 -00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:14,920 -Yeah. - -412 -00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:16,120 -Because I want the, I want the pretty graphs. - -413 -00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:20,040 -I want, I want something that like, shows me, even when like I click on a user, - -414 -00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,560 -I want to see like a simple graph like activity over time in the last week. - -415 -00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:24,600 -So like, have they been active? - -416 -00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:25,400 -When are they active? - -417 -00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:27,080 -Stuff like that. - -418 -00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:27,400 -Yeah. - -419 -00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:32,040 -I think you, but again, I think it's, it's, I think you're on to something there, - -420 -00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,920 -because the reason, the reason why I mentioned the notification - -421 -00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,840 -type of no struggle, I like it is because I have it set to, I think what you want to - -422 -00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,120 -build as the next iteration. - -423 -00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:47,240 -I only have it set like, if someone mentions me, if someone replies to me, - -424 -00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,960 -if someone quotes something that I put out in the past and so on, - -425 -00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:53,640 -then that's all I filter for. - -426 -00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:54,440 -So that's all I see. - -427 -00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:55,960 -So I hide all reactions. - -428 -00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,560 -I hide all steps and so on and so forth. - -429 -00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,640 -That's what, that's the only, that's kind of what time I saw before. - -430 -00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,640 -Kind of almost like a, like a DM, but for public dimensions, like a DM, - -431 -00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:07,640 -because I ignore all the amps. - -432 -00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,600 -It's just like, it's, it's, it's, it's beyond repair. - -433 -00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,280 -My DMs are beyond repair. - -434 -00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:18,040 -So I stopped looking a long time ago, but, but, uh, you know, I, I liked, uh, - -435 -00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:25,800 -I'm also, I'm a way bigger fan of public conversations than DMs in some sense. - -436 -00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,040 -Because most of the time when people reach out to me, - -437 -00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,640 -I'm not even the best person to answer it. - -438 -00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,640 -Yeah, you just want to tag someone else into the same thing. - -439 -00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,400 -Exactly, just to ask the question kind of publicly, - -440 -00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,640 -because most of the time it's questions and stuff and so on. - -441 -00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:36,840 -And it's not even private stuff. - -442 -00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,880 -I mean, you know, like I buy, I, I do care about - -443 -00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,720 -encrypted communication and private communication and so on for private stuff. - -444 -00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,160 -But most of the things we are dealing with, like we are building in public anyway. - -445 -00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:48,920 -We're also discussing in public. - -446 -00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,200 -We're also like, you know, we're having the conversation where things should go - -447 -00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:52,760 -with public. - -448 -00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,880 -We're working, we're, we're using and living on a protocol. - -449 -00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:56,360 -Exactly. - -450 -00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:57,560 -No, no, has always no. - -451 -00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,760 -So if you have a question for another person, just ask it and tag the person. - -452 -00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,640 -And chances are either they will reply or someone else who is more qualified will reply. - -453 -00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,320 -And both of those are great outcomes. - -454 -00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:07,640 -Yeah. - -455 -00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,280 -And if you just use DMs, then you, you block yourself off from the, off from the great outcomes. - -456 -00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,120 -What do you think about just removing DMs? - -457 -00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:18,040 -Because I've been thinking about this for the, I guess, the last, last few weeks. - -458 -00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:18,520 -Yeah. - -459 -00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,760 -Has been looking into like NIP 17 more finally. - -460 -00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,720 -And I mean, it, it, it relates to what it's not about the draft. - -461 -00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,200 -It's like, it's, it's very expensive operations. - -462 -00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,840 -I'm not sure if the M's truly should live on Noster in some sense. - -463 -00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,280 -I mean, I guess they have their use. - -464 -00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,200 -I was thinking is like, what if we just remove them and you go, kind of go with, - -465 -00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,720 -I think what like Skypad at one point or other platforms have where they had - -466 -00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,400 -support for just like, here's my link to talk to me on this platform. - -467 -00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:45,880 -Yeah. - -468 -00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,000 -Like here's my simplex link. - -469 -00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:47,960 -Here's my telegram link. - -470 -00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:48,920 -Here's my signal link. - -471 -00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:49,400 -Yeah. - -472 -00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,720 -I'm just kind of promoting that more on the user profile. - -473 -00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,080 -No, no one stops. - -474 -00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,640 -No one stops simplex and those kinds of solutions to use Noster as like a, - -475 -00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,680 -the substrate for lookups, the 10 shades, basically. - -476 -00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:01,320 -That's true too. - -477 -00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:01,640 -Yeah. - -478 -00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:08,200 -And that's, that's what, where I think that might just happen all the time, - -479 -00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,480 -where it's, I want to initiate a conversation with someone who is on Noster. - -480 -00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:14,760 -And I want to use this channel. - -481 -00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,640 -And like the, you know, you can't do the handshake this way. - -482 -00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:23,400 -It's very much like the Bitcoin wall that's integrating Noster lookups to send money to. - -483 -00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,800 -It's like, I just need your lighting address, basically. - -484 -00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:26,120 -Yeah. - -485 -00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:28,200 -And it's like, and it's very easy to look it up over Noster. - -486 -00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,240 -So you have like a sent to address book and so on. - -487 -00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,160 -That would, that would might be the best solution for, because a lot of people use - -488 -00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,480 -simplex and then the signal and, I mean, it always changes every single time one of them gets - -489 -00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,080 -from one thing, but, you know, there's always one that a lot of people are using. - -490 -00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:43,480 -Yeah. - -491 -00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,800 -It wouldn't be very difficult to add like a simple link. - -492 -00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:46,360 -Yeah. - -493 -00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:48,120 -Contact information basically. - -494 -00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:53,720 -Getting the M's right is really hard because, because people, like one on one, - -495 -00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:54,760 -the M's are one thing. - -496 -00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,960 -That's already hard, but people really love group chats and getting group chats right - -497 -00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:00,920 -is really, really hard. - -498 -00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,440 -I mean, there's like five different people working on it on the Noster side right now. - -499 -00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,120 -And we'll see what kind of protocol, what kind of approach wins out. - -500 -00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,920 -And the thing about the group chat part is that how private is a group chat, really? - -501 -00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,880 -Like, you have to differentiate between a group chat between three people, - -502 -00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:21,880 -which is reasonably private, probably, or like 500 people, where there's the likelihood of being - -503 -00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,520 -a mole in there or someone who just streams the whole chat to Twitch or takes screenshots every - -504 -00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:27,240 -five minutes. - -505 -00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,920 -It's like basically a hundred percent. - -506 -00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,000 -It's like it works too in the future. - -507 -00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,280 -So why encrypt all the things? - -508 -00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:32,920 -You know what I mean? - -509 -00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:39,400 -It's like, why share secrets between 500 people and do all the fancy cryptography stuff that's - -510 -00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:44,760 -like super, super, super expensive and hard to do if the group chat size is like 500 people. - -511 -00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:50,120 -Like, it's don't assume privacy if you're talking in a room of 500 people. - -512 -00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:56,920 -Yeah, it's a weird, and the funny part is you wouldn't assume that if you were standing - -513 -00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,600 -next within a group of 500 people in the real world, you wouldn't assume that at all. - -514 -00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,880 -But something about the technology hides that. - -515 -00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:10,280 -Yeah, no, especially I think the engineering mindset wants to get it perfect, you know? - -516 -00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:10,680 -Yeah, yeah. - -517 -00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,240 -And it's like, it's a complete waste of time. - -518 -00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,160 -It's like, you might as well switch off encryption if the group chat is above like, - -519 -00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:18,440 -you know, 20 people or whatever. - -520 -00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,480 -It's like, at a certain point, it's useless. - -521 -00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,240 -You'll either have a mole or an asshole in there. - -522 -00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,360 -It's like, and it doesn't matter. - -523 -00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:27,800 -Like, someone's going to leak all the things. - -524 -00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,960 -Someone's just going to back it up, archive it. - -525 -00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,080 -Yeah, exactly. - -526 -00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,400 -I mean, it's like, I mean, me and my friends, like, there's like three of us. - -527 -00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,520 -We have a small Discord server from way back in the day. - -528 -00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:43,320 -And I have all of the, all of the chats downloaded this text file stored somewhere. - -529 -00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:43,560 -Yeah. - -530 -00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,880 -Because I was planning on dumping them into some AI program. - -531 -00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,040 -With sync thing across like 15 different devices. - -532 -00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,480 -Yeah, so like, that's just three of us. - -533 -00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,120 -And that's, that data is already like stored for everywhere. - -534 -00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:53,640 -Going to be leaked at some point. - -535 -00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:54,360 -Probably. - -536 -00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,960 -So, yeah, it's kind of that point to exactly, but. - -537 -00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,200 -Yeah, I don't know. - -538 -00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,720 -It's a really hard question. - -539 -00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:07,960 -It's like, I, because, I mean, what attracted me to, to Nostra and still does is, is, - -540 -00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,480 -because it's raw, it's immediate, and it's very, very simple. - -541 -00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,720 -And, and to your point, you know, like being cryptographic operations, - -542 -00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,720 -being expensive and all those kinds of things. - -543 -00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,240 -Having encrypted group chats on Nostra directly is not very simple. - -544 -00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,160 -Like there's some, the simplicity stops. - -545 -00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,480 -Because you lose, you don't have consistent state, - -546 -00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:26,920 -which is the first problem you get over. - -547 -00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,880 -And like public groups, the NIP 29 kind of. - -548 -00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,000 -And with Nostra proper, you never will have consistent state. - -549 -00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,040 -That's kind of the, the thing, the thing to understand. - -550 -00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,600 -Like if you actually use Nostra properly, how it was designed. - -551 -00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:39,160 -Well, if you agree. - -552 -00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,680 -You cannot guarantee consistent state. - -553 -00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,400 -You don't have a server that can guarantee consistent state. - -554 -00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,120 -If you agree on a server, you can negotiate like consistent state. - -555 -00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:49,000 -But yeah, again, if you're not, if you're trying to. - -556 -00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,200 -There's very few situations where it makes sense to agree on a server. - -557 -00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,000 -Like on a relay. - -558 -00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,560 -Yeah, but then again, it's like an anti-pattern, right? - -559 -00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,520 -Like the beauty of Nostra and the simplicity comes from it. - -560 -00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,560 -That there is no global and you don't have data consistency guarantees - -561 -00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:04,440 -and all those kinds of things. - -562 -00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,320 -Like it strikes a different tradeoff balance. - -563 -00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,280 -And trying to shoehorn it into a use case - -564 -00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,120 -where you need perfect data consistency. - -565 -00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:14,120 -It's kind of an anti-pattern in a Nostra world. - -566 -00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:17,560 -There's one, there's one use case where I think it does make sense to like - -567 -00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,600 -agree on a relay or a server or whatnot. - -568 -00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,920 -And that is like community infrastructure. - -569 -00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,200 -Oh, yeah, okay, fair enough. - -570 -00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,960 -Like a lot of what we discord in. - -571 -00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,640 -It's like the self-hosted idea basically. - -572 -00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:30,440 -Yes, yeah, yeah. - -573 -00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,200 -Like what people use matrix servers for now. - -574 -00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:32,600 -Yeah. - -575 -00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:33,880 -They all agree on the same. - -576 -00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,080 -And someone runs the server. - -577 -00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:35,960 -The server's maintained. - -578 -00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:36,680 -Server has features. - -579 -00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,400 -Yeah, and you basically invite only whitelist the people. - -580 -00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,440 -Yeah, stuff like that. - -581 -00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,320 -That makes a lot of sense. - -582 -00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,200 -But in other cases, if I'm just talking to strangers on the internet, - -583 -00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,760 -like it's impossible to think. - -584 -00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:47,560 -Yeah. - -585 -00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:47,960 -Yeah. - -586 -00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,560 -I mean, we're in the process of figuring all that out. - -587 -00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,000 -You just mentioned before that, you know, - -588 -00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,000 -byte coding is going to make the notification - -589 -00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,680 -if you have no struggle great again. - -590 -00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:01,400 -So what's your experience being the last couple of weeks - -591 -00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,800 -getting into the byte coding world? - -592 -00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,000 -Do you have high hopes for it? - -593 -00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:08,600 -Like the opinions are very split online, - -594 -00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,520 -whether it's useful or not. - -595 -00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,120 -Or like, you know, will we produce AI slot forever? - -596 -00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,200 -People have to argue online. - -597 -00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,280 -Ah, yeah. - -598 -00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,280 -And it's going to work. - -599 -00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:23,000 -It's going to work. - -600 -00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,840 -I mean, we suspected that from the beginning. - -601 -00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,880 -And like I said, the last few weeks is a lot of good evidence - -602 -00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,240 -that it definitely does work. - -603 -00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,040 -Whether it's maintainable though, - -604 -00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,640 -like that's the interesting, the last interesting question. - -605 -00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,000 -Because, I mean, there's a reason why Pablo loves it so much, right? - -606 -00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,600 -He can just shit out in that game. - -607 -00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,760 -But Amanda did not maintain it anymore. - -608 -00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,280 -Now he can do it on steroids. - -609 -00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,280 -Well, that's the interesting part is like, - -610 -00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,160 -what does it, because the code's definitely not maintainable. - -611 -00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:51,640 -It produces. - -612 -00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,960 -And if it keeps producing, it produces really, - -613 -00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,280 -in the best of worlds, it produces code that is somewhat maintainable. - -614 -00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:01,160 -Yeah. - -615 -00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,520 -But does it really matter anymore if you can just regenerate some of the code? - -616 -00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,720 -And basically, if you go to more of a modular approach, - -617 -00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:13,240 -and you can just... - -618 -00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:13,960 -Yeah, fair enough. - -619 -00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:14,600 -Okay. - -620 -00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,600 -Generate, you can just, like something doesn't work. - -621 -00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:17,640 -Trusting talks about this as well. - -622 -00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,640 -Like small, specialized things, basically. - -623 -00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,240 -It pushes things. - -624 -00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,000 -It either pushes things in two directions I see. - -625 -00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,160 -It's like, it's small, specialized things. - -626 -00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,960 -Where like, your UI components are built independently - -627 -00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,040 -and plug in in easy ways to your, primarily, - -628 -00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,120 -your application logic and stuff works in a very modular way. - -629 -00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,320 -Or it kind of goes in the other way where, - -630 -00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,600 -or just both, where it just embraces wholeheartedly, - -631 -00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,920 -like, a framework that does everything, like next to it. - -632 -00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:47,560 -Yes. - -633 -00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:47,800 -Yeah. - -634 -00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:48,920 -Yeah. - -635 -00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:51,640 -It seems to do both of those really well. - -636 -00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:52,760 -But the interesting thing is, - -637 -00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,880 -it doesn't produce maintainable code in either situation. - -638 -00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,040 -Or what, you know, - -639 -00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,040 -from the developer's opinion, perfect code. - -640 -00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:03,640 -But then... - -641 -00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,960 -Don't you think that's fixable with, - -642 -00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,440 -basically, larger models and larger context windows? - -643 -00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,040 -Yeah, and then we'll just try to do more complicated things. - -644 -00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:12,920 -And it's not fixed a lot more. - -645 -00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:13,400 -Fair enough. - -646 -00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:13,880 -Yeah, yeah. - -647 -00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:14,120 -Okay. - -648 -00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:14,680 -That's the... - -649 -00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,960 -So yeah, I mean, it's like building a broader highway. - -650 -00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:18,680 -Yeah. - -651 -00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:19,560 -People more people. - -652 -00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:20,120 -More parts of it. - -653 -00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:20,600 -Yeah. - -654 -00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,600 -Like, it nails buttons now. - -655 -00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:23,720 -You want UI components. - -656 -00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,240 -It can build you, all the UI components. - -657 -00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:25,800 -Yeah. - -658 -00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,320 -But now we're trying to do more. - -659 -00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:28,280 -And so, I, well, - -660 -00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,600 -I get it's a lot like Bitcoin and all the other emerging technologies where - -661 -00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,280 -it's never, it never works. - -662 -00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,280 -We never think it works because we're always looking at like what we're working on right now. - -663 -00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:40,600 -Yeah. - -664 -00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,800 -And if you turn around and look back, it works amazing. - -665 -00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:44,440 -Yeah. - -666 -00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:45,800 -For everything it's already fixed. - -667 -00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,880 -That's the funny thing about humanity. - -668 -00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,760 -Like, we only call the things technology that just don't work right yet. - -669 -00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,960 -You know, like chairs, we stopped calling chairs technology. - -670 -00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:56,920 -Or doors. - -671 -00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,600 -They're just chairs and doors. - -672 -00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,200 -Yeah, all that stuff. - -673 -00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,160 -That just works. - -674 -00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:01,800 -It just works. - -675 -00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,160 -It's not technology anymore. - -676 -00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,320 -But everything that's kind of half broken. - -677 -00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,320 -Or just, you know, fails sometimes. - -678 -00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:08,920 -It's still technology. - -679 -00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:10,520 -Yeah. - -680 -00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:11,640 -That's an interesting point. - -681 -00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,480 -That point like computers have been technology for. - -682 -00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:16,040 -For a long time. - -683 -00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:16,680 -For a long time. - -684 -00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:17,480 -Yeah. - -685 -00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,960 -I think it's because computers are not a static thing, right? - -686 -00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,760 -It's like they're always evolving with us in some sense. - -687 -00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,760 -Like our modern computers are very different. - -688 -00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,400 -And like the, you know, big machines that fill the whole buildings in the 70s. - -689 -00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,200 -You know, it's like, it's, it's very, very different. - -690 -00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,560 -Yeah, they're not, they're not a machine anymore. - -691 -00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:36,280 -It's something else. - -692 -00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:36,760 -Yeah. - -693 -00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,560 -Cars are kind of, you know, a car is a car. - -694 -00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,480 -But it's still, they, they, they, they, modern cars still are. - -695 -00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,360 -Yeah, like a slice of technology. - -696 -00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:46,680 -Yeah. - -697 -00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:47,720 -Because it doesn't work well. - -698 -00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:48,520 -Yeah, exactly. - -699 -00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,120 -It just breaks down sometimes. - -700 -00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,080 -But yeah, a tractor. - -701 -00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,400 -We don't think of a tractor as technology anymore. - -702 -00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,000 -It's a, it's a piece of equipment now. - -703 -00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:55,320 -Yeah. - -704 -00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:55,960 -Or like books. - -705 -00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,400 -I mentioned books a lot, you know, where it's like books are absolutely technology. - -706 -00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,320 -Books are, are human technology and are a psycho technology and so on. - -707 -00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,040 -And we don't view books as technology, like at all. - -708 -00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:07,080 -Yeah. - -709 -00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:07,480 -Yeah. - -710 -00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,840 -But we, like there was a time where it didn't have books, you know, like it's just, - -711 -00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:11,800 -it's just people forget. - -712 -00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,120 -It's actually a human invention. - -713 -00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:15,000 -Yeah. - -714 -00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,360 -But yeah, no, I mean, for me, some of this not just blew my mind. - -715 -00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,320 -And I, to me, it's out of the question that it will - -716 -00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,040 -accelerate things massively. - -717 -00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:27,240 -Good and bad in some sense. - -718 -00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,040 -Like, like in the sense of, I think it will accelerate - -719 -00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,200 -what we are building massively, but I think it will also accelerate what, - -720 -00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,360 -I don't know, the world coin people and this kind of people are building, you know, like it's, - -721 -00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,240 -it's just open AI and, and - -722 -00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,400 -It'll take longer on their front, I think, because - -723 -00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:45,320 -I mean, they have infinite money. - -724 -00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:46,120 -That's the difference. - -725 -00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:46,920 -We have limited money. - -726 -00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,600 -Yeah, but they have infinite money, but they have the problem of being greedy, - -727 -00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,400 -which is, which really inhibits their ability to work together. - -728 -00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:55,720 -Like the cooperation. - -729 -00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:55,880 -Yeah. - -730 -00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:56,680 -Almost non-existent. - -731 -00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:57,400 -Oh, that's fair. - -732 -00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,080 -It's, it's, it's competitive silos. - -733 -00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,920 -It's not synergistic. - -734 -00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:01,320 -Yeah. - -735 -00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,560 -Cooperation just because we want to do something working at some point, - -736 -00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,760 -but it'll take them longer than we like, it's taking them longer than some of us have expected - -737 -00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,400 -to get, uh, CBDCs. - -738 -00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:13,720 -Yeah. - -739 -00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:14,440 -Because we knew they're coming. - -740 -00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:15,160 -They are coming. - -741 -00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,360 -Oh, they are absolutely coming. - -742 -00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:16,520 -Yeah. - -743 -00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:17,240 -They can't work. - -744 -00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,080 -Every government thing that's working on CBDCs is building it in the silo. - -745 -00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,200 -They're not talking to each other. - -746 -00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,840 -They're not even helping each other in some sense. - -747 -00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:27,080 -Yeah. - -748 -00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:33,240 -And so it would have come sooner if they'd actually like somehow all agreed on one CBDC to use. - -749 -00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,040 -By the way, I was like, oh, it's such a beautiful day. - -750 -00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,560 -No wind, no rain. - -751 -00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:38,680 -It's going to be perfect. - -752 -00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,520 -And now we're walking next to waterfalls and big waves. - -753 -00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,600 -So noisy as fuck again. - -754 -00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,080 -But that's fine. - -755 -00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:53,000 -I just, you know, like, I only want the people to listen that are able to suffer - -756 -00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,080 -through the bad quality with us. - -757 -00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,040 -That's kind of an entry point already, you know, like, or a filter already. - -758 -00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,200 -I only want the most interested people to listen. - -759 -00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,520 -I don't know the same way I've taken with a lot of podcasts. - -760 -00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,200 -Now I've gone through the usual cycle everyone does, which is, uh, - -761 -00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,400 -it's probably smart if we turn around, I think. - -762 -00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:15,480 -Yeah. - -763 -00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,400 -The fence is falling down, but we can't do it. - -764 -00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,280 -But just also the, it's kind of get, it's not necessarily going to get better with the noise. - -765 -00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,040 -But yeah, it's a good, it's a good filter to make things hard in some sense. - -766 -00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,120 -Like, again, for the, for the cohort, for example, it's like, - -767 -00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,720 -you actually have to come to the island. - -768 -00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:38,200 -Yeah. - -769 -00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,600 -You have to, you know, like, make time for it. - -770 -00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,720 -You have to come here on your own dime, all those kinds of things. - -771 -00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,160 -And it filters out, it filters out the slop a bit. - -772 -00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,880 -It's like, only people that really want to be here and want to work on this stuff are here. - -773 -00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,520 -So I think it's similar on an ostracide, right? - -774 -00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:01,560 -Like, it's like, you have to put in the work to actually use an ostrand, an ostrand, an ostrand, in some sense. - -775 -00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,920 -So it's very, we have a, we have some barrier to entry. - -776 -00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,160 -And that's not necessarily always a bad thing, I think. - -777 -00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:08,600 -Yeah. - -778 -00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:15,080 -Unfortunately, like, you can't ever know, but it seems to filter out a lot of people who - -779 -00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,440 -could thrive, like an ostrand, other stuff like that. - -780 -00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:23,080 -But you can't know, because you have to have some sort of filter. - -781 -00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:24,680 -Like, it's... - -782 -00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,280 -What kind of people are you thinking about? - -783 -00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,360 -Well, in the case, like, this, like, sovereign engineering, like, coming to an island and all that, like, - -784 -00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:31,880 -it definitely feels like people who can't travel. - -785 -00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,240 -Oh, yeah, that's true. But on the ostracide, I mean... - -786 -00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,120 -Oh, the ostracide. - -787 -00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,000 -There's people who do a lot of interesting stuff in the world. - -788 -00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,800 -Activists, people who publish, publish things, artists, stuff like that. - -789 -00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:53,160 -Who just can't quite, they just don't quite know how to use it. - -790 -00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,800 -They just can't put the time into using technology. - -791 -00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,440 -And a lot of those existing platforms, like, you know, Facebook, log in with your phone number, - -792 -00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,840 -like, are low enough, like, it works for them, because whenever they forget their password, - -793 -00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,320 -they just, like, reset it with their phone number. - -794 -00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,560 -What would be the main benefit for them, if you have them in mind? - -795 -00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,440 -Because I saw you, I saw you were following some artists and someone making sketches of - -796 -00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:17,480 -Pedro Natsu or whatever. - -797 -00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,520 -Yeah, I'm trying to collect as many artists on those things as I can, because, like, - -798 -00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,200 -it's the most... I like looking at that stuff, selfishly. - -799 -00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,200 -I want to see more pictures, just because I like zapping that stuff, and... - -800 -00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,080 -I think that's the main benefit, actually, of being there, - -801 -00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,760 -that you can actually just straight up receive money very easily outright. - -802 -00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:37,640 -Oh, absolutely, yeah. - -803 -00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,560 -And artists are usually getting screwed by all the platforms, especially the smaller ones. - -804 -00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,600 -So we see this in the value-for-value music world, where people, you know, - -805 -00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:52,920 -switch from Spotify, to, you know, receiving boosts, and streaming sets, and so on, and they, - -806 -00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:59,480 -like, 100 extra revenue from, like, you know, one cent a year to five bucks a week or something. - -807 -00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,760 -It's a million extra revenue. - -808 -00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,200 -I guess, like, that's kind of the way it feels on us, or it's been up for a while since we've - -809 -00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,600 -since we've got it running, it's just... We know we have, like, - -810 -00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,040 -it's proof that we have something here that works, and then... - -811 -00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,440 -It's still a small seedling, but it actually works. - -812 -00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,280 -Yeah, and the next hard part is just, like, how to... - -813 -00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,400 -What does it actually take to onboard people? - -814 -00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,880 -What does it actually take to make this work? - -815 -00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,360 -It's like, we're developing any application or building anything. - -816 -00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:34,600 -It's like, you can get half the thing done in a night, in one good day of work, - -817 -00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,440 -and then it takes two, three more weeks to get the other half finished. - -818 -00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,480 -Yeah, the last five per cent are the hardest part, - -819 -00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,880 -getting all the little details right, and polishing it, and fixing all the edge cases, - -820 -00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,200 -and so on. That's kind of, that's where the pain is. - -821 -00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:49,320 -Yeah. - -822 -00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,120 -I'm not sure if my coding can fix that yet. - -823 -00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,480 -Pablo is trying, Pablo is trying. - -824 -00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,840 -It might be able to generate less bugs. - -825 -00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,400 -I think it's going to be a different set of bugs, right? - -826 -00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:06,600 -Yeah, yeah. - -827 -00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,880 -It's not going to make the same mistakes that human makes, that human makes. - -828 -00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,200 -It'll be interesting to see if it, like, because when you fix bugs, - -829 -00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:17,400 -you don't generally write more code, and since it's an LLM and it outputs code, - -830 -00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,680 -it will be interesting to see if it can fix bugs by not writing code, - -831 -00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,160 -like rewriting it, basically, and keeping it working. - -832 -00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:31,800 -Yeah, by coding agents, they are very good at maximizing the number of lines written - -833 -00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,720 -metrics. They're not very good. - -834 -00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:36,360 -Like, not a single commit that was done by my age, - -835 -00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,720 -but one of my agents was, like, removing code, or refactoring, - -836 -00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:42,600 -restructuring code, so that it's, like, less code. - -837 -00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,000 -That metrics are extremely productive. - -838 -00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,320 -In an actual, you know, software development team, those are the best commits, - -839 -00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,520 -like, something that yanks out, like, 10,000 lines. - -840 -00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,280 -That's what I've been doing, like, that's... - -841 -00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,400 -In the last two months of work on NoStrudel is just removing code. - -842 -00:36:59,400 --> 00:36:59,960 -Yeah. - -843 -00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:03,720 -I think I've removed more, like, 20% of the code base has gotten now, - -844 -00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:05,880 -eventually. - -845 -00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,960 -And whenever I release it, the next version will have a significantly less code in it. - -846 -00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:12,840 -But yeah, those are the best. - -847 -00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,560 -Yeah, we'll see how it develops. - -848 -00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,960 -I'm quite optimistic about it, because I think every single - -849 -00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,000 -part of the whole thing will get better. - -850 -00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,000 -Like, our understanding of where and when to use LLMs will get better. - -851 -00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,080 -The models themselves will get better. - -852 -00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,720 -The hardware will get better, which means the context winners will get bigger, - -853 -00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:34,840 -all those kind of things. - -854 -00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,520 -We'll have more specialized agents. - -855 -00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,240 -I mean, that's what Pablo is currently focusing on. - -856 -00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:42,520 -He's, like, building, like, NoStr experts, basically, that are... - -857 -00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:50,120 -I think it's, like, the dynamic, like, what Yuzuz was demoing, and we'll... - -858 -00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:51,720 -Yeah, there's, like, the dynamic... - -859 -00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:55,960 -DVMCP stuff, where it's just, like, you have a marketplace of... - -860 -00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,280 -In some sense, a marketplace of agents, but more than that, like, - -861 -00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:06,040 -stuff that agents can access easily, and MCP tools that agents can use. - -862 -00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,760 -And if you add, like, because it's all master-based, - -863 -00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,480 -those things automatically have identity reputation, - -864 -00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,800 -web of trust, so you can kind of filter out what is useful and what isn't, - -865 -00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,760 -that you can actually... That's the coolest part. - -866 -00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,000 -It's like, you can give agents money so that they can pay their own stuff. - -867 -00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,520 -That's, like, so amazing. - -868 -00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:27,640 -That's the coolest part about... - -869 -00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,200 -To your point from before, that's something that OpenAI really can't do. - -870 -00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:33,880 -No, they can't, because they won't... - -871 -00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,040 -An OpenAI agent, if you're running an OpenAI agent on OpenAI's platform, - -872 -00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,280 -it will never automatically, without authentication or anything, - -873 -00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,880 -it will never automatically connect to a group. - -874 -00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,680 -They can't do it, because they themselves have to take care of the KYC, - -875 -00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,160 -of the betting, of what is allowed, what isn't, what is okay, - -876 -00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,480 -what isn't, what is trusted, what isn't, and so on. - -877 -00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,640 -And Noster pushes all of that to the edges. - -878 -00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:56,840 -Noster doesn't have to do that. - -879 -00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,680 -There is no Noster CEO that has to do it. - -880 -00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,000 -You as the developer, or you as the user, - -881 -00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,840 -you have to figure out, okay, what are my trust-worthy sources, - -882 -00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,240 -what is my point of view, and so on. - -883 -00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:09,240 -And it relates back to what we said at the beginning, - -884 -00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:13,080 -where it's like the fact that you give users keys, - -885 -00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,480 -and the signing of the data moves the power to the edge of the network, - -886 -00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,560 -to the users themselves, the keyholders have the power, - -887 -00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,640 -not the servers anymore, the keyholders. - -888 -00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,320 -The user is not on the server anymore. - -889 -00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:24,360 -Exactly. - -890 -00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,240 -That's why, I've been seeing this interesting, - -891 -00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:29,800 -trying to rewrite, when I write Noster apps, - -892 -00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,120 -I'm trying to switch the verbiage, because there is no login button. - -893 -00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:35,560 -Exactly, exactly. - -894 -00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,800 -It's also not necessarily user accounts. - -895 -00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,080 -I spoke about this in the past, I think with Pablo and some other people, - -896 -00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,720 -but it's like, to me, what I call them is cryptographic identities, - -897 -00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:46,840 -but that's a mouthful. - -898 -00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:52,440 -But the difference between a regular platform profile - -899 -00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:53,960 -and the cryptographic identity is like, - -900 -00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,160 -you can create a cryptographic identity anywhere. - -901 -00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,320 -You can lock yourself in a bathroom and flip a coin, - -902 -00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,240 -and you walk out with a cryptographic identity. - -903 -00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:04,520 -So to your point, the identity, the profile, the username, - -904 -00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,080 -it's not on the server, it's somewhere else. - -905 -00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:08,360 -And that's what makes it so powerful. - -906 -00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,000 -And to the agentics stuff, - -907 -00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,760 -and agents have identity too, and need identity too, - -908 -00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,600 -and need reputation too, and all those kind of things. - -909 -00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:17,640 -That's the thing they're missing. - -910 -00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:18,360 -That's the thing they're missing on the exit. - -911 -00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:19,640 -That's why, openly, I can't do it. - -912 -00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,320 -Because they don't give their agents identities. - -913 -00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,480 -Yeah, and every agent can have an NPAP, - -914 -00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:24,920 -but with an NPAP, it also has a wallet. - -915 -00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,160 -But if they were doing it right in their own system, - -916 -00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,080 -like they would give each agent an email address. - -917 -00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,000 -So it could sign up for services. - -918 -00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:31,960 -Sure, but then they're boxed in. - -919 -00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,040 -Yeah, it's still a main problem, but like... - -920 -00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:35,000 -Which is not very useful. - -921 -00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,560 -But they don't even, they haven't even realized that yet. - -922 -00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,320 -Oh yeah, I agree, I agree. - -923 -00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,440 -And also most of the AI people haven't realized - -924 -00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,760 -that they are going to run into the problem - -925 -00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,360 -of web of trust reputation, - -926 -00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,000 -which data to trust payments and micro payments. - -927 -00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,720 -And you can't do micro payments on Stripe, you just can't. - -928 -00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:53,800 -You have to build up your own credit lines and so on. - -929 -00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,040 -You need to sign in to activate your subscription. - -930 -00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,600 -Yeah, not only that, first of all, you need to KYC, - -931 -00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,440 -but you can't do micro payments on credit drills. - -932 -00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,760 -You can't, you just can't, it's not feasible. - -933 -00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,360 -It's not economically feasible. - -934 -00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,160 -Because I always keep coming back to the same example. - -935 -00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:10,520 -That's why every single New York Times subscription and so on - -936 -00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,920 -is like, you know, at least five bucks a month. - -937 -00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,920 -Because everything else is not economically feasible. - -938 -00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:21,000 -You cannot settle like a fraction of a penny using Stripe, - -939 -00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,080 -you know, like using any credit system. - -940 -00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:23,800 -Too much overhead. - -941 -00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,240 -You can't, you have credit risk. - -942 -00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,480 -You need to know the identities of the counterparties - -943 -00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,800 -because credit can go bad and so on. - -944 -00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,160 -You can only do it with money proper, - -945 -00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:32,840 -which means you can only, on the internet, - -946 -00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:33,960 -you can only do it with Bitcoin. - -947 -00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:35,960 -Bitcoin is the only money proper we have online. - -948 -00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,280 -It's like, that's, that's the thing. - -949 -00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,920 -And that's, that's what they will need to figure out - -950 -00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,960 -very, very painfully as they run into these walls. - -951 -00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,800 -The meantime, what's cool is with the fact that we can build, - -952 -00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,280 -we have an open system, is that we can, - -953 -00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,560 -we can just buy their stuff and resell it. - -954 -00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:58,120 -Yeah. - -955 -00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,080 -I mean, that's what's happening with Paper Q and some other things. - -956 -00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,640 -Like they're building very powerful tools. - -957 -00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:04,280 -Yeah. - -958 -00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,160 -Google search for a while was incredibly powerful. - -959 -00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:12,520 -And like, if you don't want to go in the friction, - -960 -00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,040 -if you don't, if you're not in their system, - -961 -00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,880 -we can, we have a system now where we can just buy it and resell it. - -962 -00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:21,960 -You can basically, exactly. - -963 -00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:22,840 -You can set it free. - -964 -00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,400 -You can, you can put it out of the box and set it free. - -965 -00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,280 -That's, in some sense, that's what we are doing with our - -966 -00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:29,400 -user-generated data. - -967 -00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,600 -Like if you, in some sense, that's what we're doing. - -968 -00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,480 -If you, if you, if you're a YouTube and you have all your videos on YouTube, - -969 -00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,080 -you can, right now, build a script, - -970 -00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,120 -use a little download or whatever to download all your videos, - -971 -00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,520 -sign them, upload them to Blossom. - -972 -00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,560 -Like you can make them truly yours and you can set them free. - -973 -00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:51,720 -And it's the same thing about the agent stuff. - -974 -00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:53,800 -It's just, it's exactly the same principle. - -975 -00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,520 -So that's, I think, where it's heading. - -976 -00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:57,720 -But it's going to take a long time. - -977 -00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:00,760 -Like this is, this is definitely not going to happen overnight. - -978 -00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,440 -And it's going to take a lot of, you know, grinding away and engineering. - -979 -00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,320 -It's like, to me, and I mentioned this a couple of days ago, I think. - -980 -00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:14,120 -It's, it's very similar to back in the 90s where, like, Linux was - -981 -00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:15,960 -basically still a joke in some sense. - -982 -00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:22,360 -And, and, and Microsoft had like 99.9% market dominance or something ridiculous. - -983 -00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,600 -It was like a microsoft, absolutely everything. - -984 -00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:29,400 -And it was just a couple of nerds kind of chipping away at the problem - -985 -00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,640 -and building all these little tools and building everything out in the, in the - -986 -00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,400 -new slash Linux world. - -987 -00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:37,960 -And look where we are now. - -988 -00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,800 -You know, it's only a couple of decades later. - -989 -00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:40,680 -They couldn't compete. - -990 -00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,280 -They just too much, too much. - -991 -00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,120 -But that's, that's what excites me about like the DVMCP is that we're already seeing - -992 -00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:47,800 -some of it working. - -993 -00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:48,680 -Yeah. - -994 -00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,280 -I didn't expect it to work so quickly. - -995 -00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:55,320 -But like the ability for what excites me, I want to look more into is, - -996 -00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,520 -because it's, it's interesting to configure your agents to be set up for certain tasks. - -997 -00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:00,760 -Yeah. - -998 -00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:02,120 -Build your own specialist. - -999 -00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,440 -It's going to be interesting to see how far an agent can go starting from a blank slate - -1000 -00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,160 -and just find a building itself with its own capabilities. - -1001 -00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,520 -Because a lot of the like the notion of discovery when it can go out and browse - -1002 -00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,000 -noster and make decisions like all Weber Trust, what, what can be trusted, what can't be trusted. - -1003 -00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,280 -You give it a perspective like that. - -1004 -00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:25,160 -It could start from a blank slate and you've given a task and it could just - -1005 -00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:30,760 -pull in other tools, maybe in the future, other agents to complete the task and then - -1006 -00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,440 -shut down and reset. - -1007 -00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:37,080 -To me, what's magical is, is the life component of it. - -1008 -00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,920 -It's like you're working on something and it doesn't work because it's just, it's very new. - -1009 -00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:41,640 -It's a new library. - -1010 -00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:42,760 -It's a new thing, whatever. - -1011 -00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,480 -And then someone publishes a snippet and your system can automatically, - -1012 -00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,960 -will automatically pick it up and then it works. - -1013 -00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,880 -It's like, you know, someone just released a library or a way of doing things and so on. - -1014 -00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,920 -And your agent is confused, like, I don't know how to use this thing. - -1015 -00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,960 -And then he publishes almost like a little tutorial for the agent, - -1016 -00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:01,080 -which is very easy to do. - -1017 -00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,000 -That's the idea of the code snippets and then it magically works. - -1018 -00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,000 -That's so mind-blowing and that works already. - -1019 -00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,000 -Like, that's what we tried to show off yesterday. - -1020 -00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,520 -I'm not sure if we managed yet, but it's very hard to explain all this. - -1021 -00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,720 -But you see it, you see it in playing out in slower sense, like existing developer world. - -1022 -00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:22,680 -Like whenever someone comes out with a new UI framework, like the newest hottest thing, - -1023 -00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,440 -it takes a while for people to pick it up. - -1024 -00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,680 -Because what they're waiting for is the first developers - -1025 -00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,560 -to start writing blog posts about it, to start explaining. - -1026 -00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,080 -Yeah, you have to understand it first. - -1027 -00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,520 -And basically give instructions to the people who come next. - -1028 -00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:41,320 -That's kind of what, yeah, now we're just doing, we're just going to try to do that with AI. - -1029 -00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:43,240 -Just give it instructions. - -1030 -00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,040 -Yeah, I mean, that's what vibe coding fixes. - -1031 -00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,560 -You don't have to understand what it's doing or what kind of code it produces. - -1032 -00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:51,480 -It's just, ah, it just works and it looks great. - -1033 -00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:52,040 -Fantastic. - -1034 -00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,440 -Do you think that's going to be an issue down the line? - -1035 -00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,240 -I follow some really, really good coders. - -1036 -00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:05,720 -And they all basically talk about how using these tools, let me give an example. - -1037 -00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,520 -It's like, you know, you had all these taxi drivers in New York, - -1038 -00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,760 -and they knew the city in and out, inside out. - -1039 -00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,800 -And then GPS came along and you outsourced that part of your brain - -1040 -00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,960 -that understands the traffic flows of the city, - -1041 -00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,760 -that understands like even like where stuff is and so on. - -1042 -00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,720 -And now all of that has gone out the window. - -1043 -00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:26,920 -Like, you know, like, I don't know how many decades in after GPS now, - -1044 -00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:31,240 -but it's like most taxi drivers of the world don't understand this stuff anymore - -1045 -00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:33,240 -and just like do whatever the GPS tells them to. - -1046 -00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:35,640 -And they don't have a deep understanding of how the city works, - -1047 -00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,840 -where to drive what's what the best routes are and so on. - -1048 -00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:46,760 -And so the people I follow, their main criticism is that you outsourced so many decisions - -1049 -00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:51,000 -and don't really, you even outsource understanding in some sense, - -1050 -00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,680 -like you don't even understand yourself anymore what the code base is doing. - -1051 -00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,280 -And this will be lead to kind of terrible results down the line. - -1052 -00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:05,160 -Well, you definitely limit how much like, yeah, you outsource your understanding, - -1053 -00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,880 -you outsource some of your ability, and you probably lose it. - -1054 -00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:12,280 -So you probably become by like any human measurable terms, a worse coder. - -1055 -00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:20,040 -But like, whether that produces bad, I mean, that's, that's a bad outcome for yourself, - -1056 -00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,000 -because now you're doing stuff that you don't quite understand, you're relying on the AI. - -1057 -00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:28,760 -But I don't know if it produces a bad outcome for the software itself. - -1058 -00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,920 -Yeah, the software itself or the industry, because I think it's just, - -1059 -00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:39,400 -it might split into two type categories of, it might split into what we see right now, - -1060 -00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:47,320 -and in some sense, like the Linux kernels and the foundational software, the low level stuff is - -1061 -00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:53,080 -written by wizards. Yeah, written by wizards. And, and then a lot of the other stuff is just like, - -1062 -00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,160 -like the JavaScript websites, all the crappy apps. Already kind of vibe together, - -1063 -00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,160 -which is a copy paste from Stack Overflow. Yeah, the copy paste, half work. - -1064 -00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:03,560 -So there's, I think there's always a level, - -1065 -00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:09,560 -it probably going to end up like that, where there's the low level stuff that the AI ends up - -1066 -00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:18,200 -using is, is curated, made, made with intention. And then everything on top is just kind of - -1067 -00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:23,960 -regenerated, retried, retried, retried, try again, try again, until someone gets something that looks - -1068 -00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,520 -right. Yeah, fair enough. I think that's an interesting perspective. You see with like, - -1069 -00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,640 -it's just all slower timescale, I think. You see it with like open source, like everything gets - -1070 -00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,320 -forward. Your point is that's already happening. Yeah, something gets fork developer goes where - -1071 -00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,240 -someone forks in. It's like, well, let me rewrite the UI now because it doesn't look right. Let me - -1072 -00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:47,400 -update it from jQuery to something else. And you're just redoing work that someone else did. And I - -1073 -00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:55,480 -was now it's just become bad work. So yeah, yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Yeah, I'm not sure how - -1074 -00:48:55,480 --> 00:49:01,400 -I think about this. I feel like it's kind of too early to tell. I don't know. It's with the most - -1075 -00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:09,720 -surprising outcome for me was that LLMs, especially if you actually speak to them, not type to them - -1076 -00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:17,320 -or write to them, but speak to them, they make excellent Robodock debuggers, excellent kind of - -1077 -00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:23,000 -brainstorming partners. It's really interesting. I never expect, I would have never expected them. - -1078 -00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:28,520 -The output, the output side is so kind of up in the air. We don't really know how much is - -1079 -00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,280 -capable on the output side, but the input side, the fact that we managed to make something that - -1080 -00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:39,640 -kind of appears to understand like human language. Yeah. Like that is absolutely amazing. And that's - -1081 -00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:47,080 -that's a massive because I remember working with some of that, like the early, like, you know, - -1082 -00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:51,720 -like Siri on the original Siri version on the iPhone and all the AI assistants were released - -1083 -00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:56,520 -after that. That's very, very new stuff. I worked with Dragon, naturally speaking, - -1084 -00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:02,600 -which was basically you had to train it yourself by speaking like a book of text into the microphone - -1085 -00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,640 -for like a week so that it understands your voice and how you say things. But like even when it - -1086 -00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:12,360 -managed to convert the, even when we managed to convert the audio to text, because we had - -1087 -00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:16,200 -that for a while. It worked for a while, yeah. You could tell it was just running a bunch of - -1088 -00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,280 -statements. Yeah, sure. It was like hard coded to like certain tasks. Yeah, a lot of times - -1089 -00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,680 -are different beasts. Yeah. And somehow it's like that is fixed almost overnight. - -1090 -00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,920 -Because that's what I'm excited as we get like, I guess you could say the next generation of - -1091 -00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:36,600 -models when they release is the whole MCP, like the tool call and capabilities. And we start getting - -1092 -00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:43,320 -small models with that, the lightweight ones, then the ones that realistically can't reason - -1093 -00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:49,080 -very well, can't come up with like, you can, you can use them almost as like a fuzzy layer - -1094 -00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,960 -between like human language and calling API. Yeah, I mean, that's, I think that's what also, - -1095 -00:50:54,520 --> 00:51:01,720 -in some sense, as I watch people using all this stuff, like extensively, and I use it myself as - -1096 -00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:06,760 -well, it's like, I see a lot of people, for example, and, and Justin talked about this as well, it's - -1097 -00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:11,960 -like, okay, it's a fantastic interface between you and your terminal, because you cannot remember, - -1098 -00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:18,920 -you cannot remember, like the humans are very bad at remembering every single kind of flag of, - -1099 -00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:24,600 -you know, FFmpeg or Git, or whatever command, you know, it's like, how, I know what I want to do, - -1100 -00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:30,600 -but I can't do the mapping myself of what I want to do to exactly the, what are the right brackets - -1101 -00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,440 -and the right flags and the right, whatever. That's what I mean by like, it's like, it's a human - -1102 -00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:40,280 -interface for calling, yeah, it's really good at that. Yeah. And like, that's like, - -1103 -00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,840 -I'm excited to get home and start like building some hardware and putting some experiments together - -1104 -00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:51,400 -for this, because like, that is the piece that was missing, um, in like, home assistant style - -1105 -00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:58,120 -AI. Oh, okay. So turn on my light. Yeah. It doesn't know which light. Yeah. If statement can't tell. - -1106 -00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,920 -And now you can do it locally. Well, if you know, you can do it without inviting all the spies - -1107 -00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:08,600 -into your living room. If you have two components in like a smart home, if you have a user location, - -1108 -00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:13,640 -which can be detected, like with your own, by like motion or something. And then you have a light - -1109 -00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:18,920 -bulb. Previously, you'd have to write an if statement saying look for a light bulb that's in the user - -1110 -00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:24,520 -location. If they say this coming now, the AI can just kind of, for lack of a better word, just like - -1111 -00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:29,880 -fuzz it, just kind of. Yeah. It won't figure it out on its own. It'll figure it out. Yeah. It will - -1112 -00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:34,200 -figure out what you mean. That's like, that's just what's so fascinating. It's, it's gonna fail. - -1113 -00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:39,320 -But it's like the 90% solution that actually works. Exactly. It doesn't matter that it's like, - -1114 -00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:45,000 -I've just been working with a junior engineer to kind of basically use an LLM for like a - -1115 -00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:51,160 -summarization task, those kind of things. And he was like, ah, yeah. He was like, I think I got - -1116 -00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:56,040 -a working and so on. But it's like, he produces a different output every time I want to fix that - -1117 -00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:00,280 -and so on. It's like, okay, well, yeah, well, that's, that's the whole point. Like you don't try to - -1118 -00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,680 -fix that. Like that's gonna happen with LLM's always. And that's the point. That's why they are - -1119 -00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,200 -as a good. That's why they work. It's why they work. They work for problems. They're not if - -1120 -00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:13,640 -statements. Yeah. There's there's problems that are like extremely complicated, like parsing a - -1121 -00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:20,440 -command out of human speech that they work for 90% of the time. Yeah, which is, and that's the - -1122 -00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,600 -difference between natural language and computer language. Because natural, natural language is - -1123 -00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,920 -always, it always leaves this wiggle room for, for interpretation. That's why it's so hard to do. - -1124 -00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:34,120 -And you have to, you need the context to do the, to get the interpretation, right? And so it is - -1125 -00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:40,280 -always, it will never be 100% never, like only computer language and math can do that, basically. - -1126 -00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,840 -And that's the main difference. And so what we have now is a great translation layer, basically, - -1127 -00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:50,280 -because what, what LLM's obviously are good at is actually they, they can read the whole man - -1128 -00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:55,240 -page of FM FM packet. They usually are not going to make a mistake with like the bracket is in the - -1129 -00:53:55,240 --> 00:54:00,680 -wrong spot or whatever, you know, like those kinds of things. That's an interesting point. Yeah. - -1130 -00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:06,600 -It's the whole point of natural language is, is that it is fuzzy. Yeah. It is, and it has to be - -1131 -00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:11,800 -because the world is fuzzy. Future is uncertain that you can't have perfect knowledge of the world - -1132 -00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:16,360 -and all those kinds of things. You're just like one, you are part of the universe in the world. - -1133 -00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,880 -It's impossible for you to have a perfect section. There's another bit of entropy we added, we - -1134 -00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:26,360 -managed to add to the computer. Like you needed that entropy in the system for it to be able to - -1135 -00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:33,720 -act like something that's in the real world. I think it's a necessary part to have a proper - -1136 -00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:39,000 -interface between humans and computers in some sense. It is the Star Trek kind of, you just - -1137 -00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:44,760 -talk to the computer kind of thing. Should we do, should we do one more, one more round of the, - -1138 -00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,080 -before we hit like the waterfalls and the waves? Yeah. - -1139 -00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:58,120 -But yeah, that's how I see it. It's like, and what to me, to me, it's always important to really - -1140 -00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,640 -have a hand, get a hands-on feeling for this stuff and really play around with it for a long time - -1141 -00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:09,560 -because most people I think they don't understand. I mean, who understands these things, you know, - -1142 -00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:14,120 -it's like quantum mechanics. It's like, you know, who truly understands this stuff. But - -1143 -00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:18,840 -even the engineers building their own black boxes, no one understands how they actually - -1144 -00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:24,600 -reason how they work. We're very bad at inspecting them. We're very bad at figuring out what they - -1145 -00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:30,520 -do inside, basically. That was my initial thought about it way back from a long time ago, of course, - -1146 -00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:35,800 -when it came out. But it was like, I thought that they would be more useful once we understood - -1147 -00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:41,080 -them more. But the fact that it's the fuzziness of it that actually makes it useful, - -1148 -00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:50,680 -they almost work better when we specialize them. There's people who understand them how they work. - -1149 -00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:55,960 -And they're probably not very complicated. But it's, you know, how it actually produces the - -1150 -00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:01,800 -outcome it produces is, you can't comprehend, you can't realistically. - -1151 -00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,600 -But I would disagree that there's people that understand how they work. It's very much like, - -1152 -00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:13,080 -okay, physicists understand in a perfect scenario how particles behave. But no, physicists understand - -1153 -00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:19,320 -the weather of the earth. That's what I mean. It's too much. It's too big. You can't understand it. - -1154 -00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,680 -And you can't even build systems to help you understand it, because it's just too much. - -1155 -00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,360 -You'll run into combinatorial explosion and basically the computer that's trying to - -1156 -00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,120 -compute it's going to collapse into black hole. You don't have enough context. Too many states. - -1157 -00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:35,480 -Yeah. And it's also, I don't think, I also don't think that, I mean, right now, - -1158 -00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,400 -like, I don't understand how you work. I don't understand how you think, you know, - -1159 -00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:44,120 -like, I don't understand how my team works. I don't understand how whatever, even my life works, - -1160 -00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:50,120 -you know. That's an interesting, that's like, you have to, you still, like, I don't want to - -1161 -00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:54,280 -call my wife useful, you know, like, that's not what I mean. That's not what I'm trying to say - -1162 -00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:59,800 -at all. But you still find ways to work together. And you still, you know, are able to divvy up - -1163 -00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:07,320 -tasks. You find a common interface. Yeah. And you don't have to understand the other completely - -1164 -00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,160 -to, you know, it's the common interface. Like you said, that's what language is. It's a common, - -1165 -00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:17,160 -it's a fuzzy enough common interface that I can say something. And 90% of the time, you'll understand - -1166 -00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:22,360 -what I'm saying. We feel a lot of work. I mean, we have to learn the same language and so on. - -1167 -00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:28,920 -It's learning the same complex. It's incredibly inefficient because I have to process my thoughts, - -1168 -00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:34,360 -which are, you know, you have to turn what's in your head, it's worse. Yeah. That's a compression - -1169 -00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:38,760 -algorithm. It's very bad. It's expensive. It's an expensive algorithm. But it's the only way we - -1170 -00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:44,040 -found to, like, transfer anything. Because if I, if I transfer my thoughts to you, they'd be - -1171 -00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:47,800 -completely incompatible. It's probably gonna, you know, my brain would probably melt. - -1172 -00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:52,760 -Yeah. It's just two incompatible systems. It's like, it's like one computer system trying to - -1173 -00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,640 -transfer, you know, it's database to another. It's like, yeah, if the database is lined up - -1174 -00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:02,200 -perfectly, if they're like genetic copies of each other, you can transfer the data. You can move, - -1175 -00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,440 -you can't even move data from a WordPress website to a WordPress website. Yeah. It's like, - -1176 -00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:11,560 -almost like genetically different. Yeah, yeah. Everyone has a different sequel version or - -1177 -00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:15,400 -something. And it's just everything breaks. Yeah. Yeah. And so like you need to just come with like, - -1178 -00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:22,040 -it's like processed export language. So the matrix, like, I know Kung Fu, Kung Fu download - -1179 -00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:28,360 -is a lie that will never work. Probably. Probably. Well, there's a lot of stuff that the matrix has - -1180 -00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:33,880 -that aren't lies. That isn't a lie. A matrix is great. It's basically, you know, it's, it's, - -1181 -00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:42,280 -it's Plato's cave just for the new, the new, actually, I watched it with a bunch of friends at the - -1182 -00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:48,360 -Bitcoin having. You never saw it before? Not in its not entirety. Okay, it's kind of, I knew the - -1183 -00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:53,560 -story and I'd seen clips of it, but I watched it like front to back. And that was, that was a - -1184 -00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:59,320 -great movie. It's one of the best movies of my time. There's so much, I have never seen a movie - -1185 -00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:05,400 -with so much, like, in the context of computers, I've never seen something that says so much symbolism. - -1186 -00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:10,600 -Yeah. Like there's, almost every scene, there's something that relates to like, - -1187 -00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:14,440 -computers or social media or something. You're, you're seeing play out right now. - -1188 -00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:18,440 -And it came out in 1999, which is insane. - -1189 -00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:27,080 -In 1999. It was when it came out. So it was filmed, like, you know, 97, 98. It's a, it's a, you know, - -1190 -00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:34,920 -massive, culturally important movie and, and like a classic now for, for reason, you know. - -1191 -00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:39,240 -It's just true. It was also the age difference between us. It's like, for me, it's like, I, - -1192 -00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,440 -oh yeah, right. Okay. It's like, there's people that haven't seen Matrix did too. - -1193 -00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,600 -I find that there's like a, I have a backlog of movies that people tell me. And like, - -1194 -00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,960 -everyone like, have you seen this? Like, it's like a classic movie or something. Yeah. - -1195 -00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,640 -I'm like, I try to just remember, and then they say the release date. I'm like, oh yeah, - -1196 -00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,480 -I haven't seen that. Yeah. It came out before I was born. - -1197 -00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:03,320 -But I'm in the same situation. And I, I, you know, I, I, I, I try to work through the backlog. And I, - -1198 -01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:09,000 -I'm, I would say like 50% through or so. But it's like, I'm in the same situation, - -1199 -01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,960 -which is people that are 10, 20, 30 years older than me. They will mention like, you know, - -1200 -01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:18,760 -Soyland green or something or like sci-fi movies. Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah. - -1201 -01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:24,040 -It's fantastic. Soyland green is made of people. No, it's, it's great. And like all, you know, - -1202 -01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:29,160 -space, obviously. Yeah. And, and all that. I just very recently watched Close Encounters of the - -1203 -01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:34,840 -Third Kind. And like all these classic science fiction movies, I still have to watch the, - -1204 -01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:38,840 -it's one with Keanu Reeves that I haven't seen yet. What's, because it goes around - -1205 -01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:43,400 -an Oscar from time to time. Johnny, Johnny, mammonic. I never heard that. - -1206 -01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:49,080 -And I just really want to watch it because it has the word mammonic in it. Like, - -1207 -01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:56,440 -sea phrase. Yeah. Yeah. And it's about the data. Like he, he basically, he stores data in his brain, - -1208 -01:00:56,440 --> 01:01:00,760 -like Mary, I propose to what we were talking about. And he's like a data career and the data is - -1209 -01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:06,520 -somehow too important and almost fries his brain or something. Why, why are the stories back in so - -1210 -01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:12,280 -interesting? Yeah, I mean, it was interesting times when, when computer and computing and this - -1211 -01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:17,560 -stuff came around, it was very interesting times. Now it's kind of embedded in society and so on. - -1212 -01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:22,920 -But the internet really was a very new world and a very foreign thing, you know, like the information - -1213 -01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:27,320 -super highway and no, no, no, no one understood it at all. I think we're in a similar spot now. - -1214 -01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:34,040 -Yeah. Especially with other lamps. Like it's a, no, we are, it's a similar shift. - -1215 -01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:38,680 -Do you think, so the two things we're seeing right now, like the, we're sort of like the kind of - -1216 -01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:44,840 -noster starting up the concept of cryptographic key pairs as identities. And then the - -1217 -01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:53,400 -AI and large language models becoming a thing. Because both of those things, like they're there. - -1218 -01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:58,040 -It's happening at the same time. It's a very interesting coincidence because I don't believe in - -1219 -01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:03,080 -coincidence. Well, I couldn't be related in any way because the large language models are - -1220 -01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:08,840 -systematically destroying the centralized providers because they can't do anything against spam. - -1221 -01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:14,040 -Yeah. Because their systems are set up to block spam from a computer that has like always a - -1222 -01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:20,200 -recognizable pattern. But the spam, when you, when you, when one person runs like 10 Instagram - -1223 -01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:25,720 -accounts is that it can't detect that as spam anymore. The spam protection is also not something - -1224 -01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:30,360 -you can, you can perfectly solve like one man's, one man's trash is another man's treasure, you - -1225 -01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:35,240 -know, like that's the problem. And like, and but like this is happening at the same time that we - -1226 -01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:42,520 -have a growing solution for cryptographic identity. So it's like, it's pushing on one side. It's - -1227 -01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:47,800 -interesting. It's a coincidence that makes me wonder why it's happening at the same time. - -1228 -01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:53,800 -I think it was Applebaum or was it the Sange? I'm not sure. But but he's like, for some reason, - -1229 -01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:58,760 -the universe smiles on encryption. Like it doesn't have to work this way. But it does work this way - -1230 -01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:05,880 -that encryption cryptography itself gives like it moves all the power to the individual. And - -1231 -01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,560 -it's a very peculiar thing because there's no reason why the universe should work in that way - -1232 -01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:15,480 -or has to work in that way. But it's basically like the US, China and Russia can't conspire - -1233 -01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:20,440 -against you. If you use strong cryptography, there's nothing they can do. Yeah. Yeah. Like to access - -1234 -01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:29,400 -to open the box to access the data. And and and now in the, you know, AI, LLM world and all those - -1235 -01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:35,720 -kinds of things, it's like the Skynet being the most probable outcome, like the Terminator style. - -1236 -01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:40,040 -Skynet, have you seen Terminator? The original Terminator? Yes. Okay. Yes. - -1237 -01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:44,440 -Where robots take over the world, everyone dies and it's like, it's really bad. I think it's very - -1238 -01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:52,360 -unlikely. It's a very unlikely outcome because the closed system can't compete. Yes. Somehow, - -1239 -01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:59,320 -the universe smiles on open source software and open data and cryptographically signed and verified - -1240 -01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:04,840 -data, which is out in the open. Yeah. It does not smile. Like in this scenario, the universe does - -1241 -01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:11,320 -not smile on up on silos, you know, and siloed systems and silo software and so on. It's very - -1242 -01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:16,440 -much like it's probably not. We talked about this a little bit, but it's like, there's a reason why - -1243 -01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:25,480 -totalitarian societies and can't deal with compounding errors. And you need outside force to prop up - -1244 -01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:30,680 -the silo. Yeah. Yeah. And so a jungle or like a market-style system, like a marketplace, - -1245 -01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:35,800 -an open market, which is jungle-like system, doesn't need an outside force. Yeah. So if you - -1246 -01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:41,160 -have an open self-stabilizing system, it's always superior to a close, it has to be enforced from - -1247 -01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:47,560 -the outside system because you need energy, you need energy from the outside to stabilize the system. - -1248 -01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:56,280 -Yeah. You need that. That's the general principle. Yeah. So and this upkeep and this applying force - -1249 -01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:01,240 -on it and so on has a cost. And so it will bankrupt you on a long enough time frame. - -1250 -01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:08,680 -Yeah. Yeah. It's it's. That's how I see it, at least. You know, like maybe I'm also full of - -1251 -01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:14,840 -shit, but it's like history kind of shows. There's something fundamental there because I think if - -1252 -01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,800 -you look at a lot of if you look at a lot of systems, if you look at nature and whatnot, - -1253 -01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:29,560 -a surface level understanding, like successful outcomes continue whatever is can be whatever is - -1254 -01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:37,080 -happening. Errors compound. Yeah. And it that seems to be a fundamental thing where in every - -1255 -01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:43,640 -system, you see it a lot in computer systems where the successful operation of a task - -1256 -01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:52,360 -will just produce the outcome. But if you introduce 1% air, it can't correct. Like there's very - -1257 -01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:57,720 -huge styles of systems that have air correction. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason it's so necessary is - -1258 -01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:02,440 -because 1% then 1 more percent, then 1 more percent, then 1 more percent, and 1 more. And - -1259 -01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:08,760 -successes don't correct in the opposite direction in almost all cases. So like the good example of - -1260 -01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:14,280 -this is like, you try to, I mean, everyone has like their parents or their friends computer, - -1261 -01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:20,120 -and you try to explain to them why it's going slow. Like, you know, we probably know why it's - -1262 -01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:24,840 -slow. It's like too much is installed, there's too much extensions, there's a program running, - -1263 -01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:29,720 -100 programs running in the background. But like, it's so many little 1% air, - -1264 -01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:35,160 -they're like all compound, and the system doesn't have any way of correcting that because it's just - -1265 -01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:40,200 -one more little thing, one more little, and so it just naturally basically falls apart and becomes - -1266 -01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:48,840 -slow. That's an interesting point. It's like the, I talked about this a bunch in the Bitcoin - -1267 -01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:57,320 -context, also in the cluster context. The reason why signing data sets the data free is because - -1268 -01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:03,560 -computers are insanely good at creating perfect copies. Yeah. So, and DNA is also good at that. - -1269 -01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:07,720 -That's the other system that's really good at it. But DNA makes certain mistakes. That's why we - -1270 -01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:12,520 -have mutations and so on, like not all mistakes are catastrophic, some are beneficial. But, but - -1271 -01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:18,120 -the thing about binary encoding and about computers is they're perfect copying machines. And - -1272 -01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:26,120 -because we have perfect copying machines, look at that. Transporting something. Well, like - -1273 -01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:33,320 -helicopters and everything. Oh, that's probably, that's probably like something's burning. - -1274 -01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:37,160 -Because that's a, that's a big bucket of water. - -1275 -01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:44,760 -It's like empty though. Yeah, probably. There's no way about the water flies behind a helicopter. - -1276 -01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:53,240 -Yeah, that's true. Well, hopefully it's just like a little exercise thrill or whatever. But the, - -1277 -01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:59,160 -the thing about being able to copy something perfectly is like it has very interesting side - -1278 -01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:07,640 -effects. So, you can't, you can't create perfect copies in the real world. You just can't. It's like, - -1279 -01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:10,840 -it doesn't matter if you look at cloning, it doesn't matter if you're copying it artwork, - -1280 -01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:15,640 -it doesn't matter if you look at mass production, whatever of like, you know, Ikea chairs, who cares. - -1281 -01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:19,800 -It's like, every little thing is going to be a little bit different. You don't have, you only - -1282 -01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:23,960 -have arrow, like perfect copies, you only have an additional world where you're dealing with bits - -1283 -01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:27,720 -of information and you can run arrow correction algorithms and so on and so forth. And so the - -1284 -01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:32,280 -upside is we can't build systems like Bitcoin, we can't build systems like Nostra, the, the, the, - -1285 -01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:40,440 -that's kind of, you know, like, that are insanely resilient because the same thing, - -1286 -01:08:40,440 --> 01:08:45,880 -exactly the same thing is in multiple places at once, basically, because you cannot, you cannot - -1287 -01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:51,720 -differentiate between a JPEG, like two JPEGs that are exactly the same have the same hash and - -1288 -01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:57,400 -everything. What's the original? You can't know. Yeah, we've, we've successfully, as far as - -1289 -01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:05,400 -information goes in that context, we've successfully solved the, um, location problem. Exactly. Exactly. - -1290 -01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:09,640 -That's why I was about to say that next. That's why it becomes non-local. And that's why Bitcoin - -1291 -01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:13,080 -is not local. And that's why Nostra stuff is not local. That's why we are able to also, - -1292 -01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:16,680 -that's why cryptographic identities are non-local. That's why we can remove stuff from the service. - -1293 -01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:22,200 -Yeah. That is what makes stuff non-local. Yeah. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. It is, - -1294 -01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:27,960 -it is because you guarantee a perfect copy and therefore not only it ceases to become a copy in - -1295 -01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:33,720 -that other location. It's not a copy anymore. No, it's the same thing. It's exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. - -1296 -01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:37,960 -That's where the non-locality comes in. Which is really weird, right? It's, we don't, we don't - -1297 -01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:42,040 -have this concept in a real world. There's no parallel. No, there's no parallel. I mean, only - -1298 -01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:47,240 -quantum stuff. Let's not talk about that. But my point is, it's like because of the perfect - -1299 -01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:53,000 -copies, that's what brings all these beautiful properties to, to, to the systems we care about, - -1300 -01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:57,080 -to Bitcoin, to Nostra, to blossom as well. It's the same thing. It's the same principle. It's like, - -1301 -01:09:57,080 --> 01:10:02,440 -it's exactly the same file. We can guarantee it. And so which one is the original is a meaningless - -1302 -01:10:02,440 --> 01:10:07,320 -question. It's all the same thing. It's all the same thing. They're all the original. Yeah. For all, - -1303 -01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:15,160 -you cannot know in a truly distributed system, you literally cannot know. You absolutely cannot know. - -1304 -01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:21,480 -And so, where I was going with this is like the downside of that. The downside, it relates to what - -1305 -01:10:21,480 --> 01:10:26,360 -you said, the fuzzing of the things and so on. It's like the downside of that with the LLMs and - -1306 -01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:30,280 -all these things is like, you don't necessarily want to have perfect copies all the time. There's - -1307 -01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:36,760 -a reason why we forget things, for example. Yes. Yes. You need very useful to forget things. Perfect - -1308 -01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:42,760 -memory would be a curse. Another blessing. Yeah. You'd fill up too much. You'd have too much - -1309 -01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:46,840 -because information becomes irrelevant. Your context changes, your environment changes, - -1310 -01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:51,720 -and you need to get rid of things. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's also where open - -1311 -01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:57,560 -systems are superior, where you have a certain way of figuring out what's relevant now, - -1312 -01:10:58,440 --> 01:11:02,520 -what's kind of relevant in the channel based on, you know, your point of view, - -1313 -01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:07,400 -based on the most recent stuff that just happened and so on. And that's very hard to do in close - -1314 -01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:11,240 -systems. Well, you usually have to make a decision of what to forget. Exactly. Which is energy. - -1315 -01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:15,960 -Exactly. Yeah. You can't. That's the important point. The point is you cannot centrally control - -1316 -01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:22,040 -that. It has to be an organic emerging thing. You lose, it's a losing game because if you have to - -1317 -01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:27,720 -spend energy to forget, then you've just doubled the amount of energy you need. Forgetting needs - -1318 -01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:33,560 -to be effortless. Which means you can't like, like, every, like, every life form is optimized - -1319 -01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:39,400 -to get it just as much energy as it needs. And if it needs extra and double energy just to - -1320 -01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:43,800 -just make it so steady. Forgetting and dying needs to be effortless. Yes. And it usually is. - -1321 -01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:48,120 -Yeah. But in a centrally controlled system, it is not. It's not. You need to prune the database. - -1322 -01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:52,600 -Exactly. Which is a task you have to run. You have to do all these checks to make sure you're not - -1323 -01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:56,840 -forgetting something that's important. Yeah. And that's why I'm so bullish on - -1324 -01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:00,600 -Nusser. It's a substrate for all this stuff because it happens organically. It naturally forgets - -1325 -01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:04,840 -the relays go down. Exactly. Things get deleted. If you don't care about data anymore, it's just - -1326 -01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:10,840 -like whatever. That's why, like, that is one of the, everyone loves bringing it up around, - -1327 -01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:18,040 -bringing it up every time. But that is one of the reasons that IPFS and those style of systems - -1328 -01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:25,320 -couldn't work is they strive to not forget anything. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It had - -1329 -01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:30,440 -IPFS was aiming for the curse of perfect knowledge. Yeah. Yeah. The curse of perfect knowledge. - -1330 -01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:37,160 -Yeah. That's the good way of putting it. Yeah. And they also tried to build a global state and, - -1331 -01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:41,720 -you know, they made some assumptions which I think was very misguided like they. And they made - -1332 -01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:48,440 -yeah, I mean, they launched a massive ship. Good for them. I watched. I watched. I was in the IPFS. - -1333 -01:12:48,440 --> 01:12:55,720 -I was watching and very interesting. I was very enthusiastic about it. And they had like building - -1334 -01:12:55,720 --> 01:13:01,480 -things that were developing clients. They were making new nodes. Shipcoin launched. The amount - -1335 -01:13:01,480 --> 01:13:06,840 -of commits on the project like dropped in a half. Yeah, yeah. They just stopped shipping. Yeah. - -1336 -01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:12,600 -Yeah. I mean, that's the, that's also the thing about money. It's not always a good thing. Like - -1337 -01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:19,800 -it's oftentimes, it oftentimes corrupts. And, you know, like just throwing endless money at - -1338 -01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:24,520 -the problem doesn't necessarily always fix it, which is interesting actually. Like it's, you know, - -1339 -01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:31,960 -you sometimes it even makes stuff worse. So that's like case in point IPFS and quite a few other - -1340 -01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:38,680 -projects as well. But yeah, I mean, IPFS tried to, like it leaned heavily into deduplication, - -1341 -01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:43,000 -for example. That's why that's why I love loss them so much with exactly you need to, - -1342 -01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:47,160 -because then you need to fit the pieces together again. And that's like all of that is computationally - -1343 -01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:50,760 -expensive, actually hard. If you're missing a shard, what do you do, those kind of things. Yeah. - -1344 -01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:56,920 -And like the left side of the brain solution that is both like, it's all to me, it's all kind of - -1345 -01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:01,400 -left side of the brain, Bitcoin, Noster and Blossom as well, where it's just like, okay, we just have - -1346 -01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:07,560 -this file, we only, we, you know, like, that's the file. That's the hash. That's it. - -1347 -01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:14,200 -It's the previous point, like using energy to forget. It's also like, that's why Bitcoin got - -1348 -01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:21,720 -right. So fundamentally right is it minimize the amount of energy needed to verify down to - -1349 -01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:28,840 -something almost nothing measurable in the system. Because if you, that's more energy that needs - -1350 -01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:34,840 -to be put into the system, if you're spending more to verify. You, yeah, you immediately see - -1351 -01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:40,760 -that it, that the new information you get is proper, is valid and proper. You only need to, - -1352 -01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:48,360 -that the block header basically. Yeah, it's, it's the end, it makes it very, very cheap to figure - -1353 -01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:53,960 -out what to dismiss. Yeah. Very cheap, like almost free. The main, the main thing is to fix the - -1354 -01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:58,840 -spam price. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and Bitcoin really has to figure it out because Bitcoin is - -1355 -01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:05,560 -truly about building up something that doesn't forget forever. So you really have to get this - -1356 -01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:12,280 -part right. It's interesting that it's necessary in some way. One piece. Yeah, those are fundamental - -1357 -01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:17,080 -things. And I briefly, and we spoke about this yesterday as well, I briefly spoke with Pablo - -1358 -01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:21,640 -about this. It's like, there are these certain ways that the universe works and you can't cheat - -1359 -01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:26,520 -that. And on the LLM side, for example, and it is about this stuff. It's like, if you want to, if you - -1360 -01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:32,680 -want to, if you want to artificially build something, if something doesn't emerge organically, if you - -1361 -01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:38,840 -want to, like, you know, if you, if you, if you have a structure that needs upkeep, it sucks energy - -1362 -01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:43,880 -out of the whole system. Yeah. So on a long enough time scale, it will just fall in crumble. Yeah, - -1363 -01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:49,480 -because you can't, yeah, but you can't have, you can't have endless energy, energy input forever. - -1364 -01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:53,880 -So, so only things that organically emerge, that's, that's the constant, basically, you know, like, - -1365 -01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:58,760 -that's the thing that can always happen. Spontaneous order, like crystalline structures forming, - -1366 -01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:08,680 -whatever it would have you, you know, those kind of things. And on the kind of information - -1367 -01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:13,800 -processing side, what I think is so interesting, I mean, we went through the whole how our computer - -1368 -01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:17,640 -language is different from that natural language is how it's compute different from like thinking - -1369 -01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:23,000 -in some sense and so on. And now on the LLM side, that being a generalist and being a specialist - -1370 -01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:30,600 -are in tension with each other. You can't be both. And what I see emerging right now is like, if you, - -1371 -01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:35,160 -the specialists still need to communicate, they still need to have a shared language, - -1372 -01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:40,920 -where, of course, you know, like the model context protocol comes in, DVMCP, all these things come in, - -1373 -01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:48,440 -but you need to provide the shared substrate for the marketplaces and for those all of all, - -1374 -01:16:48,440 --> 01:16:53,160 -for those kind of things. And to me, like, noster is absolutely perfect for that. And so I see, - -1375 -01:16:53,160 --> 01:17:00,200 -I see noster as the breeding ground for specialists in some sense. Like, generalists will have as well, - -1376 -01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:08,680 -but, but in terms of, in terms of housing and training specialist system specialist, LLM - -1377 -01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:13,800 -specialist agents, I think noster is perfect. I don't think as of right now, we have a better - -1378 -01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:21,880 -substrate. Yeah, it's a bold claim, I realize, but I believe it's true. I need to think about - -1379 -01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:29,720 -the whole concept of like training the, training the agents, because that's everything I've, - -1380 -01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:36,040 -I've only brushed up against them and like using them and trying to use them like specialized - -1381 -01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:40,840 -tasks. I have not seen what's possible, like, training them and specialized. I know you can do - -1382 -01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:47,320 -it. Do I wonder what, what, what would you want to, what kind of agent would you want to build - -1383 -01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:52,040 -and what do you want to train it on? I don't know yet. That's a thing. Do you have a lot of personal - -1384 -01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:59,240 -data that you want to feed it? You want to build a LLM version of hazard? Well, see, I don't, I think - -1385 -01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:06,360 -like a database use case is the only use case I can think of like a specialized system. But - -1386 -01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:13,720 -that's because we've had them forever. We've had, you know, like SQL databases. We've had those - -1387 -01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:20,040 -for a long time and those are like a server that's been trained to retrieve data and sort it and - -1388 -01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:25,400 -stuff like that, which the LLM, you know, we've seen that with like rag databases and various - -1389 -01:18:25,400 --> 01:18:30,680 -and there's stuff that I haven't looked into yet. It's really good at like data retrieval. - -1390 -01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:33,720 -So you, you would like to have a second brain in some sense? - -1391 -01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:39,960 -Definitely. That's one I try to build. But I wonder if there's like other use cases that we just - -1392 -01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:46,040 -haven't, that aren't possible because they can't be built in a perfect way that the computers require. - -1393 -01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:53,240 -Because like data retrieval is data archiving and data retrieval, if you put enough effort into - -1394 -01:18:53,240 --> 01:19:00,120 -it is a solved problem. You can get it 100% right. Yeah. But there's, what if there's other systems - -1395 -01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:05,800 -like specialized systems, you know, the concept like training and AI that you can't, we can't do - -1396 -01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:14,040 -right now because we can't get them 100% right. I don't know. So it's just gonna be one of your - -1397 -01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:21,480 -next side projects, get home, buy a bunch of graphics cards. I'm gonna see what I can run - -1398 -01:19:21,480 --> 01:19:28,200 -with the hardware I have now. It's amazing what you can run. Like I, I, I keep being blown away, - -1399 -01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:33,480 -but like, you know, my old thinkpad can run the old armour with llama too. And it's very useful. - -1400 -01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:40,440 -It's like completely local open source model. That's the beauty of, that's what I was waiting - -1401 -01:19:40,440 --> 01:19:46,280 -for to get jump into AI was to see that like something running locally can't, you still can't - -1402 -01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:50,840 -make decisions. It can't run a whole pipeline. And, and you can't, it's pretty dumb when you - -1403 -01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:55,240 -interact with it. Yeah. Like like doing tasks. It's smart enough to be useful. Yeah. That's kind - -1404 -01:19:55,240 --> 01:20:01,880 -of interesting, an interesting threshold to cross. Yes, because it definitely wasn't that way - -1405 -01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:09,080 -a year ago. Yeah. I, I, from what I tested, it was slow, didn't understand a single thing, - -1406 -01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:15,720 -merely understood English. And now it's like to the point of being useful and it's, it's improving. - -1407 -01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:22,680 -Yeah. I think that the, the running is like the, the local part is absolutely key. Because on the, - -1408 -01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:26,920 -on the, especially on the desktop, like it's, we discussed this at length the last couple of weeks, - -1409 -01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:31,960 -but it's like the, the, the beauty of noster, the beauty of all these systems is that you don't need - -1410 -01:20:32,040 --> 01:20:39,480 -an API key ever. Well, it's like, and, and so in this world, like if you would only, if, if I mean, - -1411 -01:20:39,480 --> 01:20:44,040 -yes, okay, there's this wrappers and so on, like pay per queue and so on. But, but in the best case, - -1412 -01:20:44,040 --> 01:20:48,840 -it's like, this, all the stuff runs locally on the, on your computer. We have that way back - -1413 -01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:54,440 -a little while ago was like, how else are you going to trust it? Yes. You can't see it's working. - -1414 -01:20:54,440 --> 01:20:59,640 -Like locally, I can see every piece working. If it's running on open AI servers, if it's running - -1415 -01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:03,960 -on someone else's servers, it becomes a trust me of our situation. Like, yeah, you're not in - -1416 -01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:07,480 -charge. And the whole point, the whole point of the world we're trying to build is to put the - -1417 -01:21:07,480 --> 01:21:11,480 -users in charge. Yeah. But like, if I'm going to build a, like a personal assistant or something - -1418 -01:21:11,480 --> 01:21:16,680 -that's just going to voice commands, one stuff when we do stuff, DM people for me, send emails. - -1419 -01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:23,400 -Like, unless I can absolutely see that the system is working and I can trust it almost completely, - -1420 -01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:28,600 -it will never work. I mean, you can contain it yourself. Like it can be just don't have access - -1421 -01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:33,880 -to it and be on your local network, you know, and you, you see everything that comes in and out. - -1422 -01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:36,600 -Yeah. Yeah. But like, that's, that's the important part. You see, - -1423 -01:21:41,240 --> 01:21:46,440 -you see it, there's something there like, if you can see it working, you can trust it a lot more - -1424 -01:21:46,440 --> 01:21:52,120 -than like, talk to see it more. Of course, you trust a lot more. The other, the other way is like, - -1425 -01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:59,320 -you know, Siri or whatever has access to all your DMS, all your emails, all your, your whole phone, - -1426 -01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:03,720 -all your screen at all times and all those kinds of things. And of course, it's sending stuff to - -1427 -01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:08,600 -a server. How can you trust it? It's impossible to trust it. You shouldn't trust it at all. Like, - -1428 -01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:13,240 -you shouldn't trust it by default. Yeah. But in the local first world, it's very different. - -1429 -01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:16,920 -It doesn't let you adapt to it either. Because if you say the wrong thing, Siri, and it calls - -1430 -01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:21,720 -the wrong person, you don't know if it was Siri making a mistake or whether you said the wrong thing. - -1431 -01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:26,520 -But if you see, oh, yeah, you don't know how it works. Sure, sure. Then you can, oh, I mean, - -1432 -01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:32,360 -that's part of trust, right? It's like, you, you, you, if you can't trust the thing, it won't betray - -1433 -01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:35,960 -you. But if you can't trust the thing and it portrays you, you don't even know what happened. - -1434 -01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:42,760 -Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's unknown. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, but it's, it's like, - -1435 -01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:50,600 -I, I still, I'm still surprised that other communities didn't stumble into Noster - -1436 -01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:56,360 -and found it useful enough to, to go kind of very hard on it. There is a, I talked with Pablo - -1437 -01:22:56,360 --> 01:23:00,840 -about this like a couple of weeks ago. And there's the local first community, for example, like, - -1438 -01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:05,000 -at the self-hosting community and so on, lots of hacker community and so on. Like, - -1439 -01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:09,160 -Noster is kind of by design local first in some sense, you know, it's like you said with the - -1440 -01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:14,280 -community relay and so on. You can run your own home relay, do everything there. You can use Noster - -1441 -01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:19,640 -as a substrate. And, and it works beautifully. It's very, very useful for this kind of stuff. - -1442 -01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:25,320 -And, and I'm, I'm, because there is all these people that have the same concerns and they, - -1443 -01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:29,000 -they shared the exact concern that you just mentioned with like, I, I never want to send - -1444 -01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:34,040 -stuff to a server I don't control ever and so on. And, and they are not, they, they didn't, - -1445 -01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:40,680 -I don't know. I, I don't know. Like, maybe it's just time. Maybe it's just like you mentioned with it. - -1446 -01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:45,160 -You know, new, new UI framework and someone needs to write a blog post about it that other people - -1447 -01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:50,680 -understand and so on. But, but it's, yeah, I'm, I'm still surprised that we don't have - -1448 -01:23:51,480 --> 01:23:55,480 -more influx from, from other people. I mean, Bitcoin doesn't help. It's like you, you, - -1449 -01:23:55,480 --> 01:23:59,160 -you go on Noster and it's like all Bitcoin people talking to Bitcoin stuff and everyone hates Bitcoin. - -1450 -01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:01,640 -It's like, from the followers to the exact reason. - -1451 -01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:07,560 -I was starting to agree with you like the care, removing the character when it was a mistake, - -1452 -01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:13,960 -because the amount of philosophical posts that I have no interest in is growing. It's like, it's, - -1453 -01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:20,600 -I, I, we should be short. There was the whole point. Yeah. It's like, we have to bring back the - -1454 -01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:25,240 -character limit. Two hundred ten characters. Nothing more. Yeah. - -1455 -01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:34,040 -Just think about it. Yeah. Idea is different ways of browsing. That's the beauty of it. - -1456 -01:24:34,040 --> 01:24:38,440 -I was like, if I want that back, I can just make it. Yeah. You just filter things out. You don't - -1457 -01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:43,400 -see it. I mean, there is, there is the, I think there are some relays that only accept - -1458 -01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:48,040 -events that are hundred, 144 characters or shorter or something like that. Like, because I talked - -1459 -01:24:48,040 --> 01:24:52,280 -with Pablo about it that he configured one of the relays like this and some other people cloned it. - -1460 -01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:57,160 -So, you know, there, there are inklings of the revolution, but it's not, - -1461 -01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:05,160 -we're, we're not even, there's not even dozens of ads as yet. I think most people enjoy the long - -1462 -01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:10,200 -tweets and long, you know, most posts and so on. It's, and again, like I'm, you know, - -1463 -01:25:10,200 --> 01:25:14,200 -I'm a huge fan of blog posts and articles and so on, but it's a different thing. It's a different - -1464 -01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:19,560 -media type in my mind. I think like tweets should be short. Whatever is in a feed should be short. - -1465 -01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:24,920 -I don't want to see like 5,000 word essay in my feet. No, but you're laughing, you're laughing, - -1466 -01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:29,480 -but that's what we built now. Yeah. It's what everyone built. It's like, it really sucks. Yeah, - -1467 -01:25:29,480 --> 01:25:36,520 -it's completely wrong. Like, that's why I think of changing it because I literally don't read - -1468 -01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:41,800 -anything. If it's two paragraphs, you're in a different mode. You're in a different mode. Like, - -1469 -01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:45,080 -if you're, if you're in a feed, you're in a browsing mode. Yeah, you're in a browsing and - -1470 -01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:51,960 -discovery mode. If I find an article and it's both posted by someone that I, that I, that I trust - -1471 -01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:56,360 -with their opinion on long form stuff, you know, like, like this person only shares interesting - -1472 -01:25:56,360 --> 01:26:03,080 -stuff. I am going to put it into my, I'm going to read this later pile. And when I'm in the reading - -1473 -01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:07,720 -mode, then I'm going to read it. And I have my apps and my things and my lists and so on that - -1474 -01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:12,520 -I go through. But you mentioned like scrolling down, like the, the large amounts of text is - -1475 -01:26:13,160 --> 01:26:19,000 -to put it. It's straight in terms. It's like, it's like dumping a large, it's, it's just expensive. - -1476 -01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:22,600 -Yeah. It's like putting a large amount of input into a LLM. Yeah. The amount of - -1477 -01:26:23,560 --> 01:26:27,320 -just the cost and the processing power to reduce that down and understand it. - -1478 -01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:32,440 -It's a, it's a DDoS on your attention, basically. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it was a big mistake. I, - -1479 -01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:37,880 -yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm great. I'm glad you're converting. You know, it's like, I'm, I'm, if I - -1480 -01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:42,680 -have to convert every single client developer one by one, I'm going to do that. We can enforce it - -1481 -01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:46,760 -for sure. I mean, that's what, that's what the clients do. They hide like the read more by now. - -1482 -01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:51,240 -Yeah. It's too long. You have read more. Yeah. But then that doesn't really even fix the problem - -1483 -01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:56,440 -because it fixes the problem with the scrolling, but then the person who's making that article - -1484 -01:26:56,440 --> 01:27:01,480 -never gets any engagement. Yeah. Because the first sentence that everyone reads doesn't convey any - -1485 -01:27:01,480 --> 01:27:05,640 -meaning. Yeah. And if it would ever catch on that people would game it and would, would make the - -1486 -01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:10,760 -first sentence really like, you know, like, click bait, basically. Yeah. Click bait, video header, - -1487 -01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:15,960 -titles, all that stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Tweets were perfect. It's like, - -1488 -01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:21,320 -I never used them. I don't know. Everyone fucked everything up, man. It's like, because the - -1489 -01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:25,080 -downfall was the Twitter removed the character limit. Like they made it twice as long. And then - -1490 -01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:31,240 -they removed it completely. And yeah, I thought it was always the same. No, no, no. No, it was, - -1491 -01:27:31,240 --> 01:27:39,320 -I think, I think it was 140 or something at first. And then 280, I think. And then they, they removed - -1492 -01:27:39,320 --> 01:27:44,040 -it completely and so on. And it's like, it wasn't an issue. Like it, I really think it wasn't an - -1493 -01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:47,560 -issue. Well, that's, that's where the whole concept of threads came out. And I'm not mistaken, - -1494 -01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:52,840 -because we had to make your first post compelling to the point, almost like a title. And then you - -1495 -01:27:52,840 --> 01:27:58,200 -would go on more. And I think threads, I still think I have this long thing on threads. I, I, you - -1496 -01:27:58,200 --> 01:28:04,680 -know, I don't, I don't, I went on and on about this for many months. I gotta stop. Gave up a little - -1497 -01:28:04,680 --> 01:28:11,080 -bit. But threats were ingenious, because, because you could, you could link them together. You could - -1498 -01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:16,360 -still, it was kind of like a read more thing, right? Yeah. And, but also, like you could react to - -1499 -01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:21,640 -every single paragraph almost, like to every single, you, in a tweet, you could fit two sentences, - -1500 -01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:27,560 -maybe, you know? Yeah. And so, so, so you, you could also kind of see what people found most - -1501 -01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:34,680 -interesting in this, like little wall effects in the thread, you know? And it was, it was very - -1502 -01:28:34,680 --> 01:28:39,640 -good. It was very, very useful. Interesting. And it grew organically. That's the thing, like it grew - -1503 -01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:43,800 -like this over time. And it all had its use. And, and now all of that is destroyed, basically. - -1504 -01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:48,280 -In some way, like, like median and the way they do like, like the highlighter idea, like, - -1505 -01:28:48,280 --> 01:28:54,360 -highlighting, kind of recaptures that, because you can visualize what points do people talk about, - -1506 -01:28:54,360 --> 01:28:58,680 -highlight, share and stuff like that. And threats was a very organic thing. Yes. Around that. - -1507 -01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:05,320 -Because there was some banger statement and that was like reposted and everything and like - -1508 -01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:09,560 -lots of reactions to it and stuff. I want, I want to, one of these days, I'm going to like - -1509 -01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:14,920 -some sort of client like highlight, some sort of client like highlighter because - -1510 -01:29:16,280 --> 01:29:20,120 -the idea is still good. It's just another, it's like another app on my backlog, where it's like, - -1511 -01:29:20,120 --> 01:29:23,880 -I want to see it work. Justin is, Justin is hopefully going to - -1512 -01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:31,800 -build out his Rust multiplatform. And then, you know, we can just like one-shot native apps that - -1513 -01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:37,000 -do exactly that. That would be my goal. That's an interesting point with AI and whatnot, - -1514 -01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:45,000 -is the people who, like the Rust multiplatform idea, the people who build like foundational - -1515 -01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:52,280 -systems, they usually, I mean, I kind of consider myself in this category too, - -1516 -01:29:52,280 --> 01:29:57,000 -because I get so distracted by building a beautiful library, a beautiful toolbox, - -1517 -01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:02,600 -that I never actually go build anything afterwards. When I do it's not as much as I should. It's like - -1518 -01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:08,760 -maybe the equivalent will be like someone who designs an amazing workshop and they get, - -1519 -01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:12,600 -they just enjoy designing a workshop so much that they forget to build anything else. - -1520 -01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:22,040 -But the AI having the setting up your development environment for like two months and never writing - -1521 -01:30:22,120 --> 01:30:27,400 -a line of code. Yeah, but that's the best, like the one shot in like a vibe coding idea is interesting - -1522 -01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:33,240 -because we've kind of, that like does two things, it almost standardizes work. It makes it less - -1523 -01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:38,680 -important whether it's your workshop or someone else's. And then it lowers the amount of effort - -1524 -01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:45,800 -it takes to just use it. So like, it's like Rust multiplatform. He could build it out to be like - -1525 -01:30:45,800 --> 01:30:50,680 -an amazing app framework. And then he doesn't even have to build any apps for it. If it just, - -1526 -01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:55,560 -I could come along and just prompt an app into existence and use the foundation that he lay in. - -1527 -01:30:55,560 --> 01:31:02,760 -Yeah, yeah. I mean, in some sense, and Pablo made this point also, in some sense, that's what high - -1528 -01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:08,440 -level programming languages are. It's like, I mean, everything, you know, boils down to - -1529 -01:31:08,440 --> 01:31:15,160 -to assembler and binary after that, you know, and it's like everything else on top is scaffolding - -1530 -01:31:15,160 --> 01:31:18,680 -for us to have an easier time. I think that's what we were talking about earlier with like - -1531 -01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:25,480 -Bill AI and vibe coding mess stuff up. And I don't think it will because of that reason, - -1532 -01:31:25,480 --> 01:31:31,080 -because we'll still have to build really good solid foundations. Yeah. And then the - -1533 -01:31:32,760 --> 01:31:36,840 -the process of like using those workshops, using those foundations is always going to be like - -1534 -01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:43,000 -almost general game, like, like build a chair and it's done. It's not perfect. It's good enough. - -1535 -01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:47,640 -Like, this actually brings up an interesting point that I was talking to - -1536 -01:31:49,240 --> 01:31:55,160 -as like, soft engineers, we, there's a weird tendency, it might be from the computer to think - -1537 -01:31:55,800 --> 01:32:05,320 -of stuff we build as global solutions. And like, we don't think of most of the time when we're - -1538 -01:32:05,320 --> 01:32:10,440 -talking like apps we build or tools we make. Yeah, that's the current paradigm. Millions of users. - -1539 -01:32:10,440 --> 01:32:14,520 -Yeah, we never think of like a bespoke solution. Like, if you think the traditional, - -1540 -01:32:14,520 --> 01:32:18,120 -this might be due to the fact that you mentioned like perfect copies and all that, but - -1541 -01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:25,640 -you can't like, you don't have the traditional sense of like a woodworking shop like, - -1542 -01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:31,480 -yeah, make one chair. Yeah, you might make them all look like each other. Yeah, or try to. Yeah, - -1543 -01:32:31,480 --> 01:32:37,080 -I think I think you're right. I think we will have more of that very specialized, highly opinionated - -1544 -01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:43,320 -stuff just because it's easy to build. And if just like 3,000 people use it, that's fine. - -1545 -01:32:43,320 --> 01:32:46,520 -Well, you see it with websites all the time. Yeah. Well, like the original websites that they - -1546 -01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:51,960 -were all bespoke, they were all, they were all just as much as needed to have a website for that - -1547 -01:32:51,960 --> 01:32:59,640 -person. Yeah. And then for the last five years, we've been trying to solve like website building - -1548 -01:32:59,640 --> 01:33:03,800 -with like extremely generic frameworks. Yeah, I would even say like 15 years or so. - -1549 -01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:11,720 -Yeah. Before I was in web development. And it, it, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and - -1550 -01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:15,800 -bigger and bigger. Yeah. But the, like, yeah, I mean, the ultimate outcome of this is like the - -1551 -01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:20,200 -Facebook page where it's just everything looks the same. Yes. And you set the profile fiction. - -1552 -01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:24,680 -It's just a configure a few things in the massive system. Yeah. But that's one thing I'm looking - -1553 -01:33:24,680 --> 01:33:31,320 -forward to a lot with AI models is the ability to build those like one-off websites that are - -1554 -01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:35,720 -just as big as they need to be. Yeah. And also one-off apps and just one-off whatever in some - -1555 -01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:40,680 -sense. I've been doing that a lot. I've built a lot of kind of little scripts and little things - -1556 -01:33:40,680 --> 01:33:44,520 -that I would have never sat down and build otherwise. I'm looking forward to it for like - -1557 -01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:49,240 -friends and whatnot. Because you always have friends who ask you to build apps, build websites - -1558 -01:33:49,240 --> 01:33:55,160 -and all that. Now you can. You can charge them. Oh, yeah, that's true. But there's some fun - -1559 -01:33:55,240 --> 01:34:02,440 -parties like they don't know yet. Well, it still takes expertise. But just like the fact that I - -1560 -01:34:02,440 --> 01:34:08,680 -could build a, because it used to take a lot of work to make a little web app, a website that was - -1561 -01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:13,880 -just what was needed without using a framework because it's easier with framework speed people - -1562 -01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:19,080 -up. But now you can do a generous single page of HTML looks how you want. Yeah. Ship it done. - -1563 -01:34:20,040 --> 01:34:26,200 -Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. I mean, I like I like your insight about kind of we're - -1564 -01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:33,160 -already in this situation with, you know, the wizards working on whether it's the Unix kernel - -1565 -01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:37,720 -or Bitcoin core or what have you, you know, like you really need to know what you're doing. You - -1566 -01:34:37,720 --> 01:34:43,960 -need to understand the whole thing. You're not just, you know, like copy-pasting a couple lines of - -1567 -01:34:43,960 --> 01:34:49,160 -JavaScript from Stack Overflow and so on. And that's a very interesting perspective of kind of, - -1568 -01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:54,520 -we're already in this world. It's just like, you've seen it with, um, multiplied now. You've - -1569 -01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:59,960 -seen the JavaScript ecosystem. Oh, yeah. Changes for a while. Like early days, it was everyone had - -1570 -01:34:59,960 --> 01:35:06,600 -to build their own framework. It was, it was, it was hard. And then people who, the engineers who - -1571 -01:35:06,600 --> 01:35:11,640 -really thought through things who, I mean, React came around through it. They, they were really - -1572 -01:35:11,720 --> 01:35:17,880 -intentioned about building a foundational level for a UI framework. Yeah. And then after everything, - -1573 -01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:22,520 -then we just kind of shifted layers. Now we don't write a lot of apps don't write. Yeah. - -1574 -01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:27,160 -Pure JavaScript and more, they write on top of a framework. Yeah. I think, I think it's a safe - -1575 -01:35:27,160 --> 01:35:33,160 -prediction to make that we will have frameworks for LLMs just like that. There'll be languages and - -1576 -01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:37,400 -that's, that's what's already being built now. And that's also what we are trying to build on - -1577 -01:35:37,400 --> 01:35:43,560 -an OSTA side with DB MCP and some of the things that Pablo built with the code snippets and kind - -1578 -01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:54,520 -of having it basically have a, have a very tight integration of your IDE, of the agents it has access - -1579 -01:35:54,520 --> 01:36:04,440 -to, of the MCP tools that you grab from Noster and infusing it with kind of your point of view, - -1580 -01:36:04,520 --> 01:36:09,400 -which means also your web of trust is like, because I'm, you know, if, if Pablo publishes - -1581 -01:36:09,400 --> 01:36:14,680 -and signs something, I'm going to grab it and like, let it run wild on my system. Like, I don't - -1582 -01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:20,040 -care. I don't care. That's enough trust for me. I have a dedicated mic computer. So it's fine. - -1583 -01:36:20,040 --> 01:36:24,760 -If it implodes, you know, I don't trust Pablo completely, but, but you got what I mean, you know, - -1584 -01:36:24,760 --> 01:36:28,760 -and that's what we are trying to build out. And I think we'll have a myriad of those kind of, - -1585 -01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:32,600 -let's call this a framework. It is kind of a framework of how to work with LLMs in some sense. - -1586 -01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:37,080 -And the goal on our side is to build more freedom tech. The goal for us is to, you know, - -1587 -01:36:37,080 --> 01:36:43,080 -one shot, Noster clients, one shot. I mean, one guy basically byte coded a very sophisticated - -1588 -01:36:43,080 --> 01:36:46,520 -Bitcoin wallet, you know, where it's like, okay, it uses Bitcoin script and everything is like, - -1589 -01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:51,400 -I'm never going to use it and trust it, but you can do that too. And we saw, you know, - -1590 -01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:56,200 -Kali and some other people like, you know, by code, cash, your clients and all those kind of things. - -1591 -01:36:56,200 --> 01:37:00,520 -So, so that's what we are aiming at, where it's just like, we want to give agents the tools and - -1592 -01:37:00,520 --> 01:37:04,920 -the understanding, like how to do this right. And then they're never going to make these sets - -1593 -01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:08,920 -of mistakes. Again, they're just going to be able to watch on it. Like, that's how you do, - -1594 -01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:12,760 -that's how you fetch data from relays. That's how you build a feed. That's how you get a profile. - -1595 -01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:17,000 -The cool thing is, there's a chance this time, because we've been optimizing that for a while - -1596 -01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:21,320 -on the existing internet. Like, this is how you make API request. This is how you search Google. - -1597 -01:37:21,320 --> 01:37:26,440 -So, but like, the cool part is with now that we're shifting to cryptographic identities, - -1598 -01:37:26,440 --> 01:37:29,960 -because those systems never work because every 10, every five years, we have to rebuild them. - -1599 -01:37:30,040 --> 01:37:34,360 -Yes. But with cryptographic identities, there's probably not going to be a second, - -1600 -01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:37,800 -like, you're not going to have to rebuild it. It's just going to keep working. - -1601 -01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:41,080 -Like, it. How so? What's the main difference? - -1602 -01:37:43,320 --> 01:37:46,120 -The permission's gone. Like, at the core of it, that's what it is. Like, - -1603 -01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:50,600 -it doesn't go away. The API or the thing doesn't go away. Yes. - -1604 -01:37:50,600 --> 01:37:53,480 -Like, for example, like, if you wanted to search the internet back in the, - -1605 -01:37:53,480 --> 01:37:58,040 -it was, you learned how to, you learned how to make your program interact with Google. - -1606 -01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:01,560 -Alta Vista doesn't exist anymore. It was the search engine before Google. - -1607 -01:38:01,560 --> 01:38:07,240 -Yeah, I don't know that. But the Google API endpoint will go away. - -1608 -01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:11,720 -But my exact point was you built any software in the early days for that earlier search engine. - -1609 -01:38:12,280 --> 01:38:14,840 -Google came along, and now your software doesn't work anymore. - -1610 -01:38:14,840 --> 01:38:18,760 -And that's also why the Unix tools don't go away, because they are local first. - -1611 -01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:21,080 -Yes. Yes. They don't break. And they never go away. - -1612 -01:38:21,080 --> 01:38:24,360 -They don't break because of an external dependency. And what we are trying to do, - -1613 -01:38:24,440 --> 01:38:29,400 -is remove all external dependencies. It doesn't mean that everything has to work on your local - -1614 -01:38:29,400 --> 01:38:33,800 -machine. But you don't want to have external dependencies. That's the idea about moving from - -1615 -01:38:33,800 --> 01:38:37,480 -a server is an external dependency. A relay is not. Yes. Yeah. - -1616 -01:38:37,480 --> 01:38:41,880 -Because that's the difference. That's the thing that the podcasting 2.0 people didn't get, for example. - -1617 -01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:45,880 -It's, that's a crucial difference. A server truly is an external dependency. - -1618 -01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:51,960 -You only have one source of truth. It has power over you. A relay is not an external dependency. - -1619 -01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:56,120 -Because it literally can be an internal thing. I have a relay on my phone. I have a relay at home. - -1620 -01:38:56,120 --> 01:39:00,520 -And so I can run the relay. And I, and it's completely the changer, but I don't have to trust it. - -1621 -01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:03,480 -That's why it's not an external dependency. Commodetized. - -1622 -01:39:04,600 --> 01:39:07,960 -And that's the, that's a crucial difference. And what we want to build out now, like with - -1623 -01:39:07,960 --> 01:39:15,640 -also agents and DBMCP and so on, like a DVM for example, is, is, is not an, it's the same thing. - -1624 -01:39:15,640 --> 01:39:20,280 -It's, a DVM is not an API. It's not an external dependency. It's a different thing. It's a different - -1625 -01:39:20,280 --> 01:39:27,640 -set of fits. It's because there can be multiple in some sense. Like they, they, they don't have to - -1626 -01:39:27,640 --> 01:39:32,440 -be built to work like it. They, they all work the same way. So they're just interchangeable. - -1627 -01:39:32,440 --> 01:39:37,000 -That's, it's just obvious to say, but it's just like a vendor on a large marketplace is not an - -1628 -01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:41,000 -external dependency in that sense. It's like, because you can't go to someone else. A restaurant - -1629 -01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:44,440 -is not an external dependency. You're not going to starve to death if it closes. You can go to - -1630 -01:39:44,440 --> 01:39:50,200 -the next one. That's, yeah. Yeah. It's the same principle. But if all the restaurants are - -1631 -01:39:50,200 --> 01:39:55,080 -operated on subscription models, they're very inconvenient. Because now you have to go on, - -1632 -01:39:55,080 --> 01:39:59,320 -you've, you've lost your credits with the first one. If you're completely relying on the next one, - -1633 -01:39:59,320 --> 01:40:05,000 -yeah. Yeah. That's the difference. And the money lets, the money is what lets you do it. - -1634 -01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:09,000 -The money lets with a hop around. Exactly. Exactly. Again, like if you had, if you had - -1635 -01:40:09,000 --> 01:40:14,360 -subscriptions, if you had like sign up to go to a restaurant, then it becomes a dependency. - -1636 -01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:19,320 -That's why money truly is an asset and credit is a liability in that sense. It's like, - -1637 -01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:23,960 -your credit line, if you, if you have like, you know, like a gift card or whatever, - -1638 -01:40:23,960 --> 01:40:28,760 -it's like a gift card is not money. It's like, it doesn't have the same, the same purpose. - -1639 -01:40:28,760 --> 01:40:33,000 -It's like money proper, proper money. You will always be able to go somewhere else and exchange - -1640 -01:40:34,040 --> 01:40:38,120 -for what you need and so on. Like, and that's, that's, that's, it's such a small difference, - -1641 -01:40:38,120 --> 01:40:42,040 -but it's, it's so crucial, right? It's always a small, it's like, it's so crucial. It's, - -1642 -01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:46,600 -it's, and, and it really helped me to, to think through that once more. Like when, - -1643 -01:40:46,680 --> 01:40:52,440 -when I heard you talk about, like trying to explain why it's not so different and why is it, - -1644 -01:40:52,440 --> 01:40:55,240 -that's also why it's different from an RSS feed, for example, those kind of things, - -1645 -01:40:55,240 --> 01:40:58,280 -because there are a SSP, the data in their RSS feed is not signed. And the podcasting - -1646 -01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:01,320 -to the whole people, they run into this issue all the time. Yeah. Where someone will pirate - -1647 -01:41:01,320 --> 01:41:05,720 -something and, and just exchange the value block. Yeah. Then you send money to the wrong people, - -1648 -01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:10,040 -like that, that's not something that easily happens on an other side. Yeah. Yeah. And with - -1649 -01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:14,440 -that, because it really matters where the data lives, you know, like you have a server and it's - -1650 -01:41:14,440 --> 01:41:17,880 -the source of truth, your feed is the source of food. Yeah. And it's not the data itself that - -1651 -01:41:17,880 --> 01:41:21,640 -it's the source of food. And you can't easily change that after the fact. No. Like you, - -1652 -01:41:21,640 --> 01:41:27,720 -you almost need like a consensus level, like everyone to move to sign stuff now. Like it, it, - -1653 -01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:33,800 -yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to modify that system. Yeah. That's, and that's why it's just - -1654 -01:41:33,800 --> 01:41:38,760 -going to take a long time. It's, it's like, you know, moving people from systems like Twitter to - -1655 -01:41:39,160 --> 01:41:42,600 -from systems like YouTube to an officer based solution and those kinds of things, - -1656 -01:41:42,600 --> 01:41:47,720 -it takes a long, long, long time. It's just like it, it took a long time for, you know, like, - -1657 -01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:52,760 -you know, extend the units tools to, to win over Windows. And then like a couple of decades later, - -1658 -01:41:52,760 --> 01:41:57,320 -Windows was forced to basically integrate Linux into the system. It's like, it's really, it's - -1659 -01:41:57,320 --> 01:42:04,040 -really funny. Well, yeah, it does. Yeah. But kind of systematic. You use latest Windows? - -1660 -01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:10,200 -No, they're trying to go extinct with the way they're designed. You have so much ads. It doesn't - -1661 -01:42:10,200 --> 01:42:15,720 -work. They had ads like in the, in the UI directly. The buttons take like, unless you have like a - -1662 -01:42:15,720 --> 01:42:20,120 -ridiculously fast computer, the buttons, there's like a half, there's like a quarter second delay - -1663 -01:42:20,120 --> 01:42:26,680 -on every button. Okay, it has to load the ads. It's back to like Windows XP. It's crazy. Yeah. - -1664 -01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:33,080 -It queries the ad server first on button down. I mean, that's probably what's happening. Yeah, - -1665 -01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:37,720 -no, I haven't used Windows in a long, long, long time. I still have a very old, I don't even know - -1666 -01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:43,560 -what kind of Windows version it is. But I just unearthed my very old gaming PC just to run models - -1667 -01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:48,440 -on it. It all works well enough. So I'm not, I'm not touching it. I'm not upgrading it and so on. - -1668 -01:42:48,440 --> 01:42:51,720 -Yeah, I only see it because my friends have Windows machines. - -1669 -01:42:53,000 --> 01:42:56,520 -No, I'm not hating. You know, it's like, it's like whatever, whatever works. I did a lot of - -1670 -01:42:56,520 --> 01:43:01,880 -photography back in the day and I kind of had to use a Windows machine for all that because - -1671 -01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:08,040 -all the Linux stuff just wasn't there yet. Now it's way better. Now you have like dark room and - -1672 -01:43:08,040 --> 01:43:13,400 -gimp is also like that was back in the day when gimp was not like one window but 27 different - -1673 -01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:19,240 -floating windows. It was interesting times. It's like getting, it's like what we talked about - -1674 -01:43:19,240 --> 01:43:25,160 -at the beginning almost. It's like getting used to the things so quickly. Yeah. Like you just kind of - -1675 -01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:29,720 -we forget where we came from. Yeah, and then you go back and it's like it's such a strange, - -1676 -01:43:29,720 --> 01:43:33,560 -such a strange experience when like, I mean, you go back to like traditional login photos, - -1677 -01:43:33,560 --> 01:43:38,120 -email stuff. You still have to log with email and it's like, yeah, now you have to check your - -1678 -01:43:38,120 --> 01:43:41,720 -email and there's all this antiquated, right? Yeah, if you're used to it enough stuff, - -1679 -01:43:41,720 --> 01:43:46,280 -it feels very antiquated. I never expected to get used to it so fast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. - -1680 -01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:53,480 -Yeah, yeah. Same for me. It's like, it's, it's, I mean, for me, like paying my breakfast, lunch, - -1681 -01:43:53,480 --> 01:43:57,560 -and dinner using a lightning wallet is a normal thing to do now and I'm completely used to it. - -1682 -01:43:57,560 --> 01:44:02,120 -And it's like, I don't even think about it, you know, and I sometimes use whatever, you know, - -1683 -01:44:02,120 --> 01:44:06,360 -like if I run out of balance with one thing, then I use my nostril client to pay for my coffee - -1684 -01:44:06,360 --> 01:44:10,760 -and those kind of things, you know, and it's like, I, I, it's, it's a non-event for me, - -1685 -01:44:10,760 --> 01:44:13,880 -which is really interesting. Yeah. It's really interesting. Yeah. And then you go back to the - -1686 -01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:18,120 -system and there's just things you've learned. And also, nostril, nostril working, for example, - -1687 -01:44:18,120 --> 01:44:22,360 -nostril is my like, I only, I only have nostril. I don't have anything else anymore. So it's the - -1688 -01:44:22,360 --> 01:44:27,000 -only thing I basically look into and check and so on, which is also really great because I use - -1689 -01:44:27,000 --> 01:44:31,400 -kind of like, again, like I mentioned this many times in the past, I was really addicted to Twitter. - -1690 -01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:39,400 -And it's a way, like, it's a, it's a more healthy relationship with technology, in some sense. - -1691 -01:44:39,400 --> 01:44:45,480 -Nostril allows me to have a way more healthy relationship with like a feed, with, with, with, - -1692 -01:44:45,480 --> 01:44:50,280 -with my friend network, in some sense. It's, it's, it's, for me, it's way, way, way better. And, - -1693 -01:44:50,280 --> 01:44:56,280 -and just it working and it being a normal thing, it's like, it, it feels like yesterday where - -1694 -01:44:56,360 --> 01:45:01,320 -the only client was like, Brannle, or whatever, he, Jeff call it. And like, everything was broken - -1695 -01:45:01,320 --> 01:45:05,640 -and nothing worked. And like, you had some CLI clients and everything was terrible. And it was - -1696 -01:45:05,640 --> 01:45:09,320 -so weird that no one understood anything. It's like, no one understood what this thing was. - -1697 -01:45:09,320 --> 01:45:14,520 -That was only like, oh, yeah, three years ago or so. That's, that's, that's something like that. - -1698 -01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:20,040 -And, and now it's, it's, it looks very snappy. It's very fast. We're like, optimizing things - -1699 -01:45:20,040 --> 01:45:25,320 -left and right. I mean, again, like, I'm, I'm using it as one of my main wallets for everything, - -1700 -01:45:25,320 --> 01:45:29,240 -which is weird. Like I, I owe Pablo money or something or whatever. It's like, for a coffee, - -1701 -01:45:29,240 --> 01:45:33,320 -it's like, I'm just going to set the people. And it's just completely seamless. - -1702 -01:45:33,320 --> 01:45:37,800 -Like it's, the, the cool part is we haven't even gotten to the ideas of like, - -1703 -01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:42,120 -really seamless yet. Because a lot of the lightning apps, a lot of the other stuff take like multiple - -1704 -01:45:42,120 --> 01:45:45,960 -clicks. And you got the right button somewhere in the corner to get it to do that one thing. - -1705 -01:45:45,960 --> 01:45:52,360 -Yeah. And it's still, oh, that would actually be a very nice and natural language use case. - -1706 -01:45:52,440 --> 01:45:56,600 -Like sent Pablo five bucks and it was a very good look up and it just zaps. - -1707 -01:45:56,600 --> 01:45:58,040 -Well, that's what like, that's what. - -1708 -01:45:58,760 --> 01:46:02,920 -Yeah, that's really seamless. Like the, the, the sorry to interrupt, but in terms of the, - -1709 -01:46:02,920 --> 01:46:08,360 -the vibing stuff, for me, the key unlock was actually speaking to the computer. And, and it's so, - -1710 -01:46:08,360 --> 01:46:12,120 -because I use it now for my notes and my to-dos and like, and the things and so on. - -1711 -01:46:12,120 --> 01:46:17,080 -And I just speak into my phone and that's it. That's all I do. Everything else is taking care - -1712 -01:46:17,080 --> 01:46:21,240 -about the computer. That's what I'm so excited about the dumb models because they, I don't need - -1713 -01:46:21,240 --> 01:46:25,640 -the model to think for me for the first use case. I need to build a powerful system. That's my - -1714 -01:46:25,640 --> 01:46:32,920 -home assistant. And I need to just run natural language commands against it. And like, there's - -1715 -01:46:32,920 --> 01:46:36,280 -so much to do with that. One of them could be, ah, yeah, it sent Pablo five bucks for the coffee - -1716 -01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:41,320 -asset. DM somebody something like, the original use case of Siri was that already works. That's - -1717 -01:46:41,320 --> 01:46:44,520 -the amazing thing. People don't know that this already works with the stuff that you built. - -1718 -01:46:44,520 --> 01:46:50,040 -Talk about this, maybe a little bit more. What's it called? The bakery? I just, for lack of a - -1719 -01:46:50,040 --> 01:46:54,200 -better name. It was going to be a notional thing. That's why it's called bakery. I'm thinking now - -1720 -01:46:54,200 --> 01:46:59,240 -it's, it's going to be its own thing. But it's, it's, it's meant to be kind of, - -1721 -01:47:00,840 --> 01:47:05,320 -the, the vague idea right now is kind of that, like a system that you run in one place, - -1722 -01:47:06,040 --> 01:47:12,920 -that you then prompt with AI to do things, a powerful tool for a powerful, - -1723 -01:47:12,920 --> 01:47:18,600 -no-ster-focused tool for some sort of AI toolbox. Yeah, you sent me a DM yesterday just by saying - -1724 -01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:23,240 -sent G-G-I-D-M and say G-M or something like that. Well, that, that's the cool thing is like, - -1725 -01:47:23,240 --> 01:47:29,480 -anyway, the MCP and all that is like, you plug, again, back to like the, the foundation thing - -1726 -01:47:29,480 --> 01:47:34,120 -and the fuzzy code. The MCP is a really dumb developer. Yeah. Clicking around and copying stack - -1727 -01:47:34,120 --> 01:47:39,160 -overflow. And I'm just providing a solid foundation of tools that can use. This is how you do it. This - -1728 -01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:42,200 -is how you're saying that the M, this is how it works. Yeah, like, this is what you do. This is - -1729 -01:47:42,200 --> 01:47:46,360 -what you need. This is how you look up a person. This is what I trust about. This is how you ask - -1730 -01:47:46,440 --> 01:47:50,920 -me to sign something and then. Yeah, that's so cool because it's like, you can do that. And again, - -1731 -01:47:50,920 --> 01:47:56,680 -like this already works. Trust it completely. And, and, and like you amber on your phone will pop up - -1732 -01:47:56,680 --> 01:48:02,680 -and you will just sign, sign it here and there. Yeah. It's, it's so cool. And just, just, just, just to - -1733 -01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:07,160 -reiterate the point, like the, the, what I think is so cool because once you have the, the - -1734 -01:48:07,160 --> 01:48:11,640 -natural language prompt working, the switch to audio is like a non-event. But no, you can't, - -1735 -01:48:11,720 --> 01:48:15,800 -this was my point of view. You can't switch to audio without that insight into the system. - -1736 -01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:21,800 -Yeah. Because if, if I plugged open AI into like telegram to DM my friends, right? - -1737 -01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:28,520 -I like, I can't, there's no way in a, I can know for 100% that I'm going to be able to verify - -1738 -01:48:28,520 --> 01:48:33,560 -that message before it sends. Yeah. But the fact that we have the keys, the fact that we have that - -1739 -01:48:33,560 --> 01:48:38,920 -last. Yeah, you're completely controlled. I can completely control. I can switch out the model - -1740 -01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:42,920 -for a different one every single day for a different flavor of message. And I won't worry at all - -1741 -01:48:42,920 --> 01:48:47,320 -because I can see the message it wants to sign. And if I don't like it, I just don't let it do it. - -1742 -01:48:47,320 --> 01:48:50,760 -Yeah. And, and it's complete trust. And, and just to paint the picture, like, because that's, - -1743 -01:48:50,760 --> 01:48:53,720 -that's my current workflow. It's like, I'll be out and about and I'll be, you know, - -1744 -01:48:53,720 --> 01:48:58,040 -walking from one place to the other or whatever. And I, I remember like, I, I either have an - -1745 -01:48:58,040 --> 01:49:01,560 -inside or remember something I need to do. So I'll, I'll pop out my phone and I'll speak into the - -1746 -01:49:01,560 --> 01:49:06,440 -phone for like 30 seconds. Oh, I just remember that I need to, you know, like, I don't know. - -1747 -01:49:06,440 --> 01:49:11,960 -I, I need to DM hazard that we need to go on a walk or whatever. And for the exact time. And, - -1748 -01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:16,440 -and with that stuff, it's like, it's, it's exactly the same tool chain and everything. And it can - -1749 -01:49:16,440 --> 01:49:20,520 -actually send at the end. Yeah. And it can actually send them money. Again, like, I, oh, I just - -1750 -01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:24,200 -remember that old Pablo with five bucks for the coffee yesterday or whatever. And it can actually - -1751 -01:49:24,200 --> 01:49:28,920 -literally just pick that up. And on, on your, your phone will pop up with amber and it's like, - -1752 -01:49:28,920 --> 01:49:34,200 -okay, you want to sign this, which is the DM. We want to sign this, which sends to five bucks. - -1753 -01:49:34,200 --> 01:49:37,960 -And that's it. And you sign off on it. And that's it. And that's like, the, the truly is a very - -1754 -01:49:37,960 --> 01:49:42,760 -powerful virtual assistant in some sense. It really is as cool as that. The next, I want to - -1755 -01:49:42,760 --> 01:49:48,280 -experiment with this with a few, a few more on those traps. But we're, this is going to make it - -1756 -01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:54,200 -very obvious that we're lacking in the most signing software category. Yeah, because right now, - -1757 -01:49:54,200 --> 01:49:58,680 -like Amber's Android, Android only. But more, no more, more than that, because - -1758 -01:49:58,680 --> 01:50:05,480 -Amber is awesome, but it signs everything. So it means it's too broad to show me exactly what - -1759 -01:50:05,480 --> 01:50:10,920 -it's doing. Even if it like shows a kind one that it wants to sign, I still can't quite see what - -1760 -01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:17,000 -it's doing. But if I could, what if I had five amber apps on my phone? And one was dedicated - -1761 -01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:22,840 -only signing nip 60 wallet stuff. So all it was focused on was signing the events for me and for - -1762 -01:50:22,840 --> 01:50:27,000 -that. And it would show me the details about everything. Like, you want this transaction, - -1763 -01:50:27,080 --> 01:50:31,320 -it's probably going here, the money's coming out of here. And then another one, it's just social. - -1764 -01:50:32,040 --> 01:50:37,640 -Yeah. And having that the smarter, like, we're going to need smarter sign, like, - -1765 -01:50:37,640 --> 01:50:40,680 -it's going to be interesting. I'll be trying to do something like that, right? They're - -1766 -01:50:40,680 --> 01:50:45,480 -extension with like, let's be reasonable. I fully trust it. I'm paranoid, ask me every time those - -1767 -01:50:45,480 --> 01:50:50,520 -kind of levels. And, and, and the other thing is like, it, I think it just has to be like a - -1768 -01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:55,400 -visual indication that, for example, you're sending money now. So you actually want to - -1769 -01:50:55,400 --> 01:50:59,240 -probably sign up on that and double check it. But I think, I think we're on our way of figuring - -1770 -01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:02,680 -all that out. Like, we have the budgets and those kinds of things, because like, if it's like 20 - -1771 -01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:06,120 -cents, like, you don't need to. But it's more than like, the thing is like automation doesn't - -1772 -01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:11,800 -solve it. Yeah. Until you, you need to solve the first problem you need to solve is understanding, - -1773 -01:51:11,800 --> 01:51:15,480 -and then you can automate it. Yeah. So you need, you need, you need to wait for the user to see what - -1774 -01:51:15,480 --> 01:51:20,120 -they're signing. Understand it within half a second. Yeah. Look at the screen and be like, - -1775 -01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:26,520 -this is a signature for a long form post. Yeah. And then like, okay, I, I, I, I read, I, you - -1776 -01:51:26,520 --> 01:51:30,040 -browse through it. Okay. It looks good. Yeah. And then after that, you can, you can say auto - -1777 -01:51:30,040 --> 01:51:33,480 -approval. Yeah. And also, exactly. Exactly. And that's, it relates to what you mentioned about - -1778 -01:51:33,480 --> 01:51:37,480 -the trust, because if you build trust, if you actually trust the thing, I'm gonna auto approve. - -1779 -01:51:37,480 --> 01:51:41,480 -And then you just needs to be transparent that you need to, like, I'm gonna, I want to look back, - -1780 -01:51:41,480 --> 01:51:45,400 -and I want to see what the things spent in the last week, or whatever, and so on, and it's like, - -1781 -01:51:45,400 --> 01:51:49,160 -and that's, I think that's how it's going to work. That's how it's going to evolve. But I really, - -1782 -01:51:49,160 --> 01:51:52,920 -I really like what kind of was cooked up in the last couple of weeks, because it, it all - -1783 -01:51:52,920 --> 01:51:58,040 -evolved so quickly. And now, and that's where we at now. We, we actually have human language - -1784 -01:51:58,040 --> 01:52:02,280 -interfaces into Noster, into wallets, it's like, we can sap, we can do things, we can do all kinds - -1785 -01:52:02,280 --> 01:52:07,800 -of things. We can, we can, a month. Yeah. Where? Oh, it's building the month. Open AI, and they're - -1786 -01:52:07,800 --> 01:52:12,360 -still, they're still trying to get AI. You can't, unless you like sign up for like five subscriptions, - -1787 -01:52:12,360 --> 01:52:16,200 -you're not going to get, you're not going to get your open AI model to send an email for you. - -1788 -01:52:16,200 --> 01:52:22,360 -Now, we just have to get better at explaining it, showing it to other people. I think even people - -1789 -01:52:22,360 --> 01:52:26,680 -inside our little bubble will have trouble wrapping their head around it, and what it really is, - -1790 -01:52:26,680 --> 01:52:32,120 -and what it really means. But I'm, I'm really, really kind of optimistic, because - -1791 -01:52:32,120 --> 01:52:38,440 -shipping examples, we already have the marketplaces. And so, so, so it's very much like, in the beginning, - -1792 -01:52:38,440 --> 01:52:42,920 -when Noster was like, like, Fijajab basically launched Noster, no one understood it, but it - -1793 -01:52:43,000 --> 01:52:47,800 -was already life. And it's the same thing now. What we have is already life. And so, you, you, - -1794 -01:52:47,800 --> 01:52:55,240 -you, if someone publishes a code snippet, if someone publishes, you know, DBMCP thing, whatever, - -1795 -01:52:55,240 --> 01:52:59,960 -it will pop up immediately and other people can pick it up. And you can immediately, instantly - -1796 -01:52:59,960 --> 01:53:04,360 -interact with all of it. And also, on, on, you know, on the, on the bakery side of what you - -1797 -01:53:04,360 --> 01:53:09,560 -build and so on, it's like, you, you, you literally can, you know, use one of your sock - -1798 -01:53:10,120 --> 01:53:14,360 -or whatever or punch in your real life. And you can just let it do stuff. And that's so magical, - -1799 -01:53:14,360 --> 01:53:19,720 -right? It's just like, you know, post GM, and it will do it. Yeah, yeah. And you can literally - -1800 -01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:24,040 -talk into your computer and your phone and it's like, post GM, and it will do the things. It's - -1801 -01:53:24,040 --> 01:53:28,840 -really cool. It's going to be, it's going to be incredible for that. Like I said, the, - -1802 -01:53:30,120 --> 01:53:35,000 -the prompting the commands is that it's, I don't know, like, there's so much we've been, - -1803 -01:53:35,080 --> 01:53:39,400 -like I said, it was the promise of like, when I grew up, it was like, promise like, - -1804 -01:53:39,400 --> 01:53:43,400 -Siri came out. Yeah. And that was the promise. You're going to be able to do anything. You're - -1805 -01:53:43,400 --> 01:53:46,680 -not going to be like, it's not, they had a longer promise. You're like, you'll talk to your phone, - -1806 -01:53:46,680 --> 01:53:50,120 -but I don't know. It was like, for me, it was a star trek computer. That's like generational - -1807 -01:53:50,120 --> 01:53:57,720 -differences. But it just hasn't never, it never came. Yeah. And now like, it's something like, - -1808 -01:53:57,720 --> 01:54:01,560 -yeah, now it's here. Systems are open. And now it's, now it's here. It's actually, you can - -1809 -01:54:01,560 --> 01:54:07,400 -actually build it. You can do it. It runs without, it works, which is crazy. - -1810 -01:54:07,400 --> 01:54:10,280 -Yeah, it's really cool. It's really cool. It actually works now. - -1811 -01:54:10,280 --> 01:54:15,400 -All right. Let's have, let's grab some coffee and see if we can work on explaining it to other - -1812 -01:54:15,400 --> 01:54:20,520 -people a little bit more. Maybe write a, buy the blog posts into existence. Yeah. You need to - -1813 -01:54:20,520 --> 01:54:24,200 -write, you need to write one of the blog posts that you talked about in the, you know, JavaScript - -1814 -01:54:24,200 --> 01:54:29,800 -UI framework context is like, you need to sit down, write about this, explain it to other people, - -1815 -01:54:30,520 --> 01:54:34,280 -explain it to our podcasting 2.0 friends, explain it to some of the other - -1816 -01:54:34,280 --> 01:54:39,080 -JavaScript front end developers and some, some tech people that should be interested in that stuff. - -1817 -01:54:39,080 --> 01:54:43,000 -We'll write more for that. Same reason. Just like use obsidian more, get right more notes down, - -1818 -01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:48,760 -write more blog posts because they, yeah. Yeah. We'll get it. It's good to get the information out. - -1819 -01:54:48,760 --> 01:54:53,800 -We'll get there. All right. What do you say? Coffee, orange juice, something like that. I'm cooked. - -1820 -01:54:53,800 --> 01:54:57,640 -The sun's up now. It's going to be hot today. All right. Let's hope that all this worked. - -1821 -01:54:57,720 --> 01:55:02,520 -It's always, with me, it's always, you know, a gamble whether the recording actually worked or not. - -1822 -01:55:03,720 --> 01:55:04,920 -That looks good. - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/10 - Walking with Jesus - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/10 - Walking with Jesus - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index b050cc1f..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/10 - Walking with Jesus - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,40 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "Walking with Jesus" (Episode 10) - -**Context:** An extended stroll exploring the power of literal walking—as practiced in Sovereign Engineering cohorts—and drawing parallels to historic peripatetic thinkers, including religious imagery (the title nod to Jesus' walk with disciples). - -## Core Themes & Insights - -1. **Walking as Cognitive Technology** - • Movement unburdens working memory, freeing space for insight. - • Sovereign Engineering cohorts schedule weekly "long walks" to spark cross-pollination. - -2. **Embodied Dialogue** - • Conversations while walking feel less performative; hierarchy dissolves when everyone is out of breath. - • Mirrors ancient peripatetic schools and Emmaus-road storytelling. - -3. **Solvitur Ambulando (“Solved by Walking”)** - • Problems stuck at the laptop often unravel mid-trail. - • Cohort members encouraged to voice blockers during walks rather than Slack threads. - -4. **Ritual & Rhythm** - • Weekly cadence: ship Tues, sats Wed, coffee Thu, iterate Fri, walk Sat. - • Walking acts as liminal space between sprint cycles—resetting vibe. - -5. **Spiritual & Psychological Benefits** - • Analogous to pilgrimages: shared hardship builds trust. - • Physical setting (nature, tunnels, coastline) becomes mnemonic anchor for ideas. - -6. **Practical Tips** - • Keep groups ≤6 so conversation flows. - • Record voice notes on-trail for later transcription via local AI. - • Publish photo+route as Nostr kind 304 for posterity (and zaps!). - -## Implications for Sovereign Engineering Cohorts - -• Protect weekly walk time; treat as sacred as demo day. -• Encourage newcomers to prepare one "stuck" question to discuss en-route. -• Integrate walking transcripts into cohort knowledge base via Blossom. - ---- - -Walking isn't downtime—it's moving R&D. By lacing up and stepping out, Sovereign Engineers find clarity, camaraderie, and sometimes a little grace along the path. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/10 - Walking with Jesus.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/10 - Walking with Jesus.srt deleted file mode 100644 index 5e521755..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/10 - Walking with Jesus.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,8200 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000 -Okay, yeah, the secret to life is to hit record slash send tweet. - -2 -00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,000 -You can always have it. - -3 -00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,000 -No, I don't edit, ever. - -4 -00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:12,000 -Oh, fine. - -5 -00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,000 -No, it's too much work. - -6 -00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,000 -Just hit record and pray and see what happens. - -7 -00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:19,000 -Prompt and pray. - -8 -00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,000 -Exactly. - -9 -00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:21,000 -Prompt and pray. - -10 -00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,000 -That's the... - -11 -00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,000 -With emphasis on pray. - -12 -00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:25,000 -Because it's just... - -13 -00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,000 -It never gets it right the first time. - -14 -00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,000 -But Pablo is going to fix that. - -15 -00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:37,000 -I mean, that was kind of the goal of the last couple of weeks, is to teach the agents how - -16 -00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,000 -to build an ostrich properly. - -17 -00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,000 -Yeah. - -18 -00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,000 -I think we're really close. - -19 -00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,000 -What's your guess? - -20 -00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,000 -One shouting like a DVM or something. - -21 -00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,000 -I think that... - -22 -00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,000 -I mean, yeah, we are definitely into something. - -23 -00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:57,000 -But I believe that, you know, these publicity cooks, you know, how they work. - -24 -00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:02,000 -When some new technology appears and the publicity cook that they have where... - -25 -00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -26 -00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:04,000 -Now we're in the hype phase. - -27 -00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,000 -Yeah. - -28 -00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,000 -We're in the hype phase. - -29 -00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,000 -We haven't reached the top of that. - -30 -00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:14,000 -And then when we reach the top, it's going to be a moment of reflection. - -31 -00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,000 -The trough of disillusionment, right? - -32 -00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,000 -That's what it's called, I think. - -33 -00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,000 -Everyone's like, oh, everything sucks. - -34 -00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,000 -Yeah. - -35 -00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,000 -Bitcoin is the ostrich. - -36 -00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,000 -A lot of them are stupid. - -37 -00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,000 -Exactly. - -38 -00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,000 -Nothing works. - -39 -00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,000 -I think it's something that you can... - -40 -00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:36,000 -I mean, I like to be informed and to read articles, stay up-to-date news and so on. - -41 -00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,000 -Did you read the 2027 one? - -42 -00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:40,000 -Yeah, 2027. - -43 -00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,000 -No. - -44 -00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,000 -Hyper bullish super intelligence like tomorrow. - -45 -00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,000 -No. - -46 -00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:45,000 -No, I haven't read it completely. - -47 -00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,000 -I read like an overview of it. - -48 -00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,000 -But I haven't read it completely. - -49 -00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:59,000 -I've been reading a lot of articles lately about security implications of these new protocols, - -50 -00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,000 -like I-NCP or the AI. - -51 -00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,000 -Yeah. - -52 -00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,000 -They will be agents. - -53 -00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,000 -Yeah. - -54 -00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,000 -Yeah. - -55 -00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,000 -Yeah. - -56 -00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:08,000 -Yeah. - -57 -00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,000 -Yeah. - -58 -00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,000 -Yeah. - -59 -00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,000 -Yeah. - -60 -00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,000 -Yeah. - -61 -00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,000 -Yeah. - -62 -00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:14,000 -Yeah. - -63 -00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,000 -Yeah. - -64 -00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,000 -All sorts of possible attacks that we are not advising right now because, you know, it's so new. - -65 -00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,000 -Yeah. - -66 -00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:18,000 -No one knows. - -67 -00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,000 -Well, it's not that violent. - -68 -00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,000 -Yeah. - -69 -00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,000 -Yeah. - -70 -00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,000 -It's a nice promise, actually. - -71 -00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,000 -So I think that all of these programatics that we are advising right now are something - -72 -00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:36,000 -that people or researchers and security experts are putting on the public with all these articles. - -73 -00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,000 -We are not suffering all of that, yet. - -74 -00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:45,000 -Because these tools are so new and these protocols are so new and it really... - -75 -00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:51,880 -attach it to a very niche part of the population, it's also not everyone's like playing around - -76 -00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,840 -with it yet, it's not widely embedded everywhere yet, but it will be very soon I feel like, - -77 -00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:01,160 -I mean mostly it's mostly the good guys so to speak playing around with it now you know like - -78 -00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:07,960 -people most exposed to all these tools are basically AI researchers and co-workers and so on and - -79 -00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:13,480 -so forth, but I think this will change very very quickly. Yeah definitely I think that we are - -80 -00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:22,280 -going to reach that critical mass, but like before that it's important that we as like a kind of - -81 -00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:34,040 -explorers of this new world, we can abide the challenges of this new tools. I mean my advice to - -82 -00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:42,520 -everyone would be getting new laptop, a dedicated vibe coding machine, like get dedicated hardware, - -83 -00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:48,120 -don't put anything of importance on it and just like switch it to your low mode, that would be - -84 -00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:56,280 -my best. That would be my best advice, use QBOs and this virtualized everything. Is that what - -85 -00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:01,880 -you do currently? No, okay, you have one machine, let's go down here otherwise we'll hit traffic, - -86 -00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:11,400 -you have one machine and you just do a lot of things. I know, I'm not Jolo, I'm very cautious, - -87 -00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:18,600 -you also use a different setup the most. You use Goose a lot as well, right? Yeah, - -88 -00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:24,520 -I'm just experimenting with the power tools, you know, as I'm developing this DBnCP stuff, - -89 -00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:31,480 -I'm playing a lot with NCP and so on. I normally don't use this as a consumer, I use it as a - -90 -00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:39,080 -developer, so I try to find the best tools for that and Goose is amazing indeed, because for - -91 -00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:45,560 -example, necessarily when I was introducing this dynamic discovering of tools, MCP supports - -92 -00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:51,880 -these notifications from the server to the client where the server can notify to the client that - -93 -00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:58,440 -the list of tools changed and get updated. For example, I was testing in use with Corsair or - -94 -00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:06,440 -other clients and the only one that works was Goose. Okay, well, did you use Roocode also? - -95 -00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:14,440 -No, I haven't tested yet. Okay. Were you part of the workshop with Paolo? Do you have a setup? - -96 -00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:19,720 -Like in theory, do you have a working setup? Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's like - -97 -00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:26,360 -it's very configurable, I would be surprised if we couldn't get the updated tools and stuff. - -98 -00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:32,520 -I really believe that the security measures that we are going to see in the incoming - -99 -00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:41,640 -weeks, months, years are going to be in different levels, but one of them, one of the most important - -100 -00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:50,280 -parts is going to be in the client level where you as a user execute tools from MCP servers and - -101 -00:05:50,280 --> 00:05:59,560 -so on and the client should provide you enough, like a fishers to really understand what you are - -102 -00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:05,880 -doing or edit the tools that you are executing. Yeah, and that's going to be a big security - -103 -00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,920 -advantage. I think that's why when an Oscar is awesome in that regard and Hazard showed some - -104 -00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,000 -of that off as well, because if you're doing something in an Oscar world, you basically, - -105 -00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:23,720 -if you're using an external signer like Amber, it can't really do anything destructive in your - -106 -00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:29,000 -name. Like you always have the executive power on your side just with the signer alone and it's - -107 -00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:35,320 -like whatever your agent is doing and whatever tool call is made, Amber will always pop up and - -108 -00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,920 -be like, okay, do you want to sign this event? Like if you have it configured that way, but I think - -109 -00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:46,920 -that's super powerful. That's like a super interesting approach slash paradigm like the most other - -110 -00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,960 -systems don't have, because usually it's all or nothing. It's like here's my API key and now you - -111 -00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:57,400 -act on my behalf basically. And with the delegation possibilities of an Oscar, I think it's super - -112 -00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,360 -interesting that you can, that you just can't have an agent and basically it can't really do - -113 -00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,960 -anything destructive in that sense. So that's, I think that's an interesting side effect. - -114 -00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,680 -Like it always hits you, you're a proverb, right? Like a disannoying window. - -115 -00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:20,040 -Yeah, yeah, I mean, sure. I mean, that's why most people go just like, yeah, yeah, always, - -116 -00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,240 -you know, always sign that. It's fine. Yeah, let's make a run for it. We can also, yeah. - -117 -00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:33,080 -Oh, fuck. Oh, no, let's go. Breaking the law. Don't die traffic. Jesus rolled over by car. - -118 -00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,480 -We made it. We made it. And we stay alive. - -119 -00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:45,400 -You know, I need to keep you on your toes. Yeah. Everyone. - -120 -00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,800 -Yeah, I think that, you know, - -121 -00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,120 -Jolo mode is going to be something outdated so soon. - -122 -00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:02,280 -Why? Because I don't believe that it's going to stay for longer because when more people start - -123 -00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:11,640 -to use these new technologies and so on, we are not going to have that freedom to use execute - -124 -00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:16,040 -everything in Jolo mode because they are going to be more exploit and more people want them to - -125 -00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:22,520 -exploit. Oh, you think so? You think people will switch back from Jolo mode? I highly doubt it. - -126 -00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,840 -No, I think that once you're in Jolo mode, once you're in Jolo mode, you never go back. - -127 -00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,960 -I think that there is no going back. I think that they are different, different levels of Jolo mode. - -128 -00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:38,120 -Like there is the reckless Jolo mode, but you go, yeah, yeah, sure. Totally unknown. - -129 -00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:43,000 -I mean, Ru already has this where it's like, you know, you have more fine-grained permissions, - -130 -00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,600 -but like it can always read a file, for example, but it can't always delete a file, - -131 -00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:52,600 -those stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But definitely the conception that we have about - -132 -00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:59,080 -these tools have to change because it's impossible that we keep the same mentality that we have now - -133 -00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:04,520 -for the future of these technologies because there are going to be so many attack vectors - -134 -00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,840 -and people are going to be so compromised that I think that it's impossible to stay - -135 -00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:17,000 -in the same level of Jolo mode. Yeah, I think I discussed this with Pablo already a little bit. - -136 -00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:22,920 -It's what was like, everyone will run into this problem. Like, you know, what agent to trust, - -137 -00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:28,840 -what MCP tools to trust, what kind of, I don't know, even code snippets to trust those kind of things. - -138 -00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,800 -And I think Noster really has a unique position there because we do have identity - -139 -00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:40,360 -and rep of trust baked in. So it's kind of, you know, trust everyone from my kind of closest - -140 -00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:45,480 -circle on Noster. Then it's like, you know, I whitelist a couple of N-pups and I just trust - -141 -00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,200 -whatever they sign off on or those kinds of things. Everyone else will kind of have to - -142 -00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,440 -rebuild this from scratch in some sense. And they will, like, I mean, you know, there's many - -143 -00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,440 -instances where this was done in the past, like, I don't know, like steam in the gaming world, - -144 -00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,920 -rebuild the social graph just for like gaming, for example, you know. So they will definitely - -145 -00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:08,600 -do that. And some of the companies will also succeed and so on. But I still think, - -146 -00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,560 -I mean, we talked about this a lot the last couple of weeks, but everyone will run into - -147 -00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,840 -those limits and those issues. And one of the limits is kind of web of trust. Like, one of the - -148 -00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,080 -things you will run into is like, again, the trust question. The other one is the micropayment - -149 -00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,880 -question. And I think, again, like, Noster, it's perfect for that. I would add the, the - -150 -00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:34,120 -very family. Yeah. Oh, that that as well. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, which comes completely. I don't - -151 -00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,200 -even think about it anymore because it so comes for free and then exercise. Like, everything is - -152 -00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:43,400 -signed. So you don't really need to manually verify in that sense. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. - -153 -00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:51,480 -I was, I was looking the this name specification for the eight to eight protocol. I was, I think I - -154 -00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:58,280 -was talking to you about this the other day. But I was, I was watching this specification for - -155 -00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:04,440 -the new Google protocol that eight to eight agent to agent. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're trying - -156 -00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:09,960 -to build a more complicated version of Noster basically. It's fucking awful. Yeah. It's a, - -157 -00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:17,800 -the JSON specification is a 2000 lines JSON schema where there are a lot of nested objects and - -158 -00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:26,280 -authentication method. Yeah. Yeah. It's fucking hell. Yeah. If you, if you use probably JW and - -159 -00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:31,960 -JW SS all the way down in one big JSON object, I can guess how this looks like, but I don't want - -160 -00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:40,040 -to look, I don't even want to look. It's not good to see. It's even worth to, to work with. - -161 -00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,400 -With that. Yeah. I mean, it's safe to say that they will go down the path and maybe, you know, - -162 -00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,960 -at some point in time in the future in a couple of years, they might turn around. - -163 -00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,360 -If our thesis is correct and the Noster marketplace, so to speak, - -164 -00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:02,920 -marketplace for agents and thinks is, is, works well enough than, than they might be - -165 -00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,400 -grudgingly adopted later on. I mean, we made this comparison in the last couple of weeks, a lot with, - -166 -00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:13,960 -you know, like how windows had to be grudgingly integrate Linux into the system, you know, - -167 -00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:20,280 -all those kinds of things where it's just, that, that was thought impossible, like 20 years ago or - -168 -00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:26,520 -so. And, and the open, it's going to be like the minimalistic open kind of, I don't know, - -169 -00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:33,160 -you know, Unix ethos system just one out in the end, basically, and one out big time. - -170 -00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,960 -So yeah, that's how I see this going. But what was your motivation, by the way, to - -171 -00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,080 -start working on, on TV, MCP? - -172 -00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:42,920 -Not them. - -173 -00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:43,320 -Yeah. - -174 -00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,960 -So we have to thank Tamadoches for this. - -175 -00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:46,440 -Oh yeah. - -176 -00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:51,320 -We have to thank, thank Tamadoches for so many things, but this is one of these things. - -177 -00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:52,280 -We have to think. - -178 -00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:53,320 -Awesome. I didn't know that. - -179 -00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,560 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, in very few people will know what totem is, by the way. - -180 -00:12:57,560 --> 00:12:57,720 -Yeah. - -181 -00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,960 -Maybe explain it in a minute or two. - -182 -00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:03,480 -Totem, totem is a, it's a project that's working with sandwich. - -183 -00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:09,000 -We are creating some sort of experience on top of the data and nozzle. - -184 -00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,440 -So you want to, the turn realized into Tamadoches, basically. - -185 -00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:13,080 -Yeah, basically. - -186 -00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:13,640 -Yeah. - -187 -00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:14,840 -In the short years. - -188 -00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:20,120 -But the other day was revisiting some notes that we have for, for totem. - -189 -00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:27,000 -I saw the line that kind of give me the inspiration to work on the VNCP and was - -190 -00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:29,960 -use DVM as a wrapper for NCP. - -191 -00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:30,520 -Yeah. - -192 -00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,120 -I think that was, that was the line. - -193 -00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:33,560 -How long ago was it? - -194 -00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:34,360 -A month ago. - -195 -00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:34,840 -Yeah. - -196 -00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,920 -Just before it started, it says, several in the end. - -197 -00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:39,000 -That's funny. - -198 -00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:39,960 -Life moves fast. - -199 -00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:40,440 -Yeah. - -200 -00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:41,320 -Life moves fast. - -201 -00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,040 -Yeah. - -202 -00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,600 -I mean, the whole NCP protocol is very young. - -203 -00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:45,160 -Yeah, it is. - -204 -00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:45,320 -It is. - -205 -00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:45,800 -It is. - -206 -00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:53,720 -To me, it's just a natural fit to use Noster to look up MCP tools and to look up. - -207 -00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,320 -Like, look up all the things, basically. - -208 -00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:56,040 -Look up. - -209 -00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,920 -And that's what Pablo is building out right now. - -210 -00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,760 -I'm going to share the tutorial again, but it's basically, - -211 -00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:08,600 -what you want to do is you have these specialized agents and you want to kind of box them in. - -212 -00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,120 -Because the main issue right now is that like, if the agents aren't constrained, - -213 -00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,680 -they just go wild and stuff breaks all the time and so on. - -214 -00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:15,960 -And they're also not Noster experts. - -215 -00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,840 -They're like, not, agents aren't really experts in that sense. - -216 -00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:24,920 -So, most large models in particular are generalists and so on. - -217 -00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,800 -And so, the way to box them in is like, first of all, with the MCP tools, - -218 -00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,400 -like what they can do, basically. - -219 -00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,520 -But also, in terms of like, how do you use, I mean, I always use Pablo's example, - -220 -00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,520 -how do you use NDK, you know, like, and you have various code snippets, like, - -221 -00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,080 -okay, this is basically the documentation for you. - -222 -00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,000 -This is how you do a profile lookup. - -223 -00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,960 -This is how you do NIP-60, NIP-61, whatever. - -224 -00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,800 -You know, this is how you sap someone. - -225 -00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,960 -And then, then the LLMs aren't confused on how to do that. - -226 -00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,160 -And the success rate of doing it in that way. - -227 -00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,680 -And of course, you know, like, all this stuff, - -228 -00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:00,280 -you can use Noster to look it up. - -229 -00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,120 -Like, you look up the code snippets with Noster, - -230 -00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,240 -you look up the MCP tools with Noster, all those kinds of things. - -231 -00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,480 -And I basically, I used it myself a little bit as well, - -232 -00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,480 -but I mostly watched over Pablo's shoulder. - -233 -00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,040 -And the funny thing is, like, with the snippet approach, for example, - -234 -00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,080 -if you fix an issue once, like, the LLM is always confused about, - -235 -00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,040 -I don't know, like, even stupid things, like fetching some data. - -236 -00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,960 -Because millions of answers on Stack Overflow - -237 -00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,360 -were always like, OK, you query this REST API yet, so. - -238 -00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,520 -And that's, like, in the Noster world, it's nonsensical. - -239 -00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,480 -And it will always try to fetch something from an API and so on. - -240 -00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,760 -And then you fix it once, and you say, OK, no, this is the way to fetch it. - -241 -00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,280 -And it will never make that mistake again. - -242 -00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:37,560 -And that's just so amazing to me. - -243 -00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:38,840 -Like, that's so cool. - -244 -00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,880 -And of course, with the NCP tools that we have now, - -245 -00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,800 -it's like, basically, while you're coding, - -246 -00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,080 -you can publish these code snippets. - -247 -00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,200 -It's like, OK, you just made this mistake. - -248 -00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,440 -Here is how you do it in a Noster way. - -249 -00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,280 -Create a snippet, publish it to Noster, - -250 -00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,600 -and don't confuse yourself anymore going forward. - -251 -00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:57,400 -And it actually works. - -252 -00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:58,840 -It's really amazing, so. - -253 -00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,520 -Yeah, I think that the important part of this is that - -254 -00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:07,240 -we have something like LLMs that are kind of black boxes, - -255 -00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,280 -that are stateless, that doesn't have any concept of context. - -256 -00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:11,800 -Yeah, they don't have long-term memory. - -257 -00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:12,920 -That's the issue, kind of. - -258 -00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,680 -You have different techniques and different ways - -259 -00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:21,160 -to provide that and to enhance the context. - -260 -00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,840 -But definitely, LLMs are just a black box - -261 -00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,920 -that have a general knowledge about everything, - -262 -00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,680 -but about nothing specific. - -263 -00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:29,800 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -264 -00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,680 -How you provide that and enhance that context is a whole world. - -265 -00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:35,560 -Yeah, absolutely. - -266 -00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:36,040 -Absolutely. - -267 -00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,920 -It's a whole piece of art. - -268 -00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:39,640 -Yeah. - -269 -00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,280 -I got the art and the art system. - -270 -00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,360 -They are used as plastic contents. - -271 -00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:44,920 -Yeah. - -272 -00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,400 -A different sensation. - -273 -00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,400 -Yeah, that was something that was discussed also - -274 -00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:50,440 -the last couple of weeks a lot. - -275 -00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,280 -It's like basically building up specialized drag databases - -276 -00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,600 -and having them signed by the domain experts. - -277 -00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:57,320 -Yeah. - -278 -00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,120 -And then it's kind of very easy to figure out - -279 -00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:01,960 -what to use and what is actually, - -280 -00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,360 -like it's very easy for the LLMs to grab - -281 -00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:07,720 -domain-specific knowledge. - -282 -00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:08,440 -Yeah. - -283 -00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,440 -And I think that's huge. - -284 -00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:11,000 -That's huge. - -285 -00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,640 -It's like a, you know, like it's, - -286 -00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,720 -because I see it in the same way as like the, - -287 -00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:20,760 -a Casper of sees the chess computers. - -288 -00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,840 -You know, I think that the strongest, - -289 -00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,680 -it's not that the chess computers took over - -290 -00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,040 -and they played against each other - -291 -00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,960 -and, you know, dominate the chess world now. - -292 -00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,920 -That's not, that's, the strongest systems - -293 -00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,080 -are hybrid systems, are human machine systems. - -294 -00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:33,480 -Yeah. - -295 -00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,480 -And in terms of like now having vibe coded intensely - -296 -00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,080 -for like six weeks straight, basically, - -297 -00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,800 -it's clear to me that for the foreseeable future, - -298 -00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:44,920 -this is what we have to do. - -299 -00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,360 -We, we need to have this human agent interaction - -300 -00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:49,640 -that we need to have also, - -301 -00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,840 -we need to infuse domain expert knowledge - -302 -00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:56,600 -into those systems. - -303 -00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:56,920 -Yeah. - -304 -00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:57,800 -And I think it's not so, - -305 -00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,680 -it's a very natural system to do that to make this happen. - -306 -00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:01,480 -Definitely. - -307 -00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,440 -I am spreading exactly that with the beating head project. - -308 -00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:05,480 -Yeah. - -309 -00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,320 -The beating head project is something that - -310 -00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,520 -I was just kissing with Joe here in, - -311 -00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,040 -in several engineering and also - -312 -00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,320 -Alex Gleason was interested on the topic. - -313 -00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,360 -And so we are working kind of together on that - -314 -00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:20,360 -very synchronously. - -315 -00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,480 -But basically the beating head is a - -316 -00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,320 -rack database that is made it of an NCP tool. - -317 -00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,080 -Like I do have a NCP server - -318 -00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,320 -that provides you access to a rack database. - -319 -00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,640 -And this is something very, very cool that - -320 -00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,440 -I think that I haven't seen, - -321 -00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,000 -I haven't saw that other people are - -322 -00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:39,880 -spreading this solution. - -323 -00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:41,800 -Because, you know, - -324 -00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,240 -rack databases are normally - -325 -00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,120 -tailored for a specific system. - -326 -00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,120 -But it really opens the door for a kind of - -327 -00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:54,440 -black-able context or the mind-spare context, you know, - -328 -00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,480 -because you can, the beating head have - -329 -00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,080 -all the nips and context about the specific kinds - -330 -00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:04,600 -and how to implement them. - -331 -00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,520 -A very comprehensive documentation on that - -332 -00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:11,000 -that can be retrieved with natural language. - -333 -00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:11,480 -Very cool. - -334 -00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,400 -Like LLMs can do that very easily. - -335 -00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,600 -And I made it in a way that - -336 -00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,040 -you have embed databases. - -337 -00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,680 -So these whole contexts, - -338 -00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,960 -the embedding database is all a single file - -339 -00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,040 -that you can, for example, upload to Blossom. - -340 -00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,360 -And then you can do the same, - -341 -00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,640 -create a list of the rack databases that you have there. - -342 -00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,280 -And then suddenly you have a - -343 -00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,480 -plug-able context and plug-able experts. - -344 -00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,560 -Or domain-specific content - -345 -00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,360 -that you can plug into your system - -346 -00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,160 -and benefit of that by providing real context - -347 -00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,200 -about the domain that you want to work with your L&M. - -348 -00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,320 -Yeah, I think that's awesome. - -349 -00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,080 -And the awesome part about it is also, - -350 -00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:57,960 -like you said before, - -351 -00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,800 -the very fireability is baked in. - -352 -00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,040 -Like everything is self-signed, so to speak. - -353 -00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,360 -I mean, it's pure not-staring mens and again, - -354 -00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:05,880 -like blossom uploads and so on. - -355 -00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,360 -And the result of that is that - -356 -00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,840 -you don't ever need an API key for anything. - -357 -00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,880 -And that's something that's such a killer feature - -358 -00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,960 -from a developer perspective, - -359 -00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,560 -where you can just plug all this together. - -360 -00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:23,480 -And you don't need to sign up anywhere - -361 -00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,720 -and then turn an API key and anything like that. - -362 -00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:27,400 -I mean, we will still have to deal with spam - -363 -00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,000 -and rate-limiting and all those kind of things. - -364 -00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:29,480 -Oh yeah. - -365 -00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,160 -But we can do that easily with Web of Trust - -366 -00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:32,200 -and e-cash basically. - -367 -00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:33,240 -Everyone will have to deal with that. - -368 -00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:34,440 -Everyone will have to deal with that. - -369 -00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,280 -And the default way is like signups and KYC - -370 -00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:39,320 -and all those kind of things. - -371 -00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,880 -And the nicer way is basically Web of Trust and payments. - -372 -00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,040 -Web of Trust and Sats. - -373 -00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,440 -I mean, the original proof-of-work vision of, - -374 -00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:49,960 -you know, like it was, - -375 -00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,000 -yeah, it was both California and Adam Back had the idea, - -376 -00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:55,960 -basically, of like, - -377 -00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,080 -it was basically rate-limiting. - -378 -00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,480 -It was like postage stamps for email sent, - -379 -00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:00,040 -those kind of things. - -380 -00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:00,440 -Yeah. - -381 -00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,280 -It was a spam-prevention mechanism. - -382 -00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:02,760 -Yeah. - -383 -00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,360 -And we just used the difficulty adjusted - -384 -00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:08,680 -spam-prevention mechanism that is Sats. - -385 -00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:09,160 -Yeah. - -386 -00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:11,960 -Sats and social security planning. - -387 -00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:12,600 -Yeah, exactly. - -388 -00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,240 -So, yeah, all that's really cool. - -389 -00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,160 -Like for me, like again, playing around with that, - -390 -00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:18,200 -and I don't, you know, - -391 -00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:19,880 -I don't see myself as a developer anymore, - -392 -00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,320 -that the train is long gone. - -393 -00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,040 -But I am vibing again, you know, so there's that. - -394 -00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,480 -And it's just so cool to be able to do all that and use all that - -395 -00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,040 -and not have to worry about the sign-ups and API keys - -396 -00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,000 -and whatnot. - -397 -00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:32,120 -I mean, if you just, - -398 -00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:34,120 -if you ever entered the Google Developer Console - -399 -00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,680 -and tried to, you know, create an OAuth tool, - -400 -00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,800 -or whatever, it's like, you know, like five days are gone - -401 -00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:40,840 -and it still doesn't work. - -402 -00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,240 -And here it's just, it's basically plug-and-play. - -403 -00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:44,360 -So that's really cool. - -404 -00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:46,280 -Yeah, that's the kind of authentication, - -405 -00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,440 -hell, that I was talking about with the A to A - -406 -00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,600 -they kind of make this protocol free and really interpretable - -407 -00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,960 -or that really, something that really works for, - -408 -00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,600 -because they are going to use for in the same - -409 -00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,320 -problems that they have now that is, ah, fucking hell. - -410 -00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,760 -Someone needs to say who is a legit user and who isn't. - -411 -00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,480 -Yeah, and so that's with the DID people as well. - -412 -00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,200 -You know, someone has to be the certificate authority, - -413 -00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:13,960 -for example, and all those kind of things. - -414 -00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,520 -And so all these systems, like massively centralized - -415 -00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,960 -and basically turn into massively authoritarian systems - -416 -00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,160 -because, you know, there will be, I don't know, - -417 -00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,000 -like, you know, depending on whatever, - -418 -00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,200 -depending on the political weather, - -419 -00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,080 -it's like, okay, the developers are from Iran or whatever. - -420 -00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,680 -Okay, we have to deplatform all of them. - -421 -00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,200 -Like, if your IP is from this country, then, you know, - -422 -00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,280 -like someone with a very large stick will come - -423 -00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,120 -that will tell everyone, okay, you have to - -424 -00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,760 -blacklist all those IPs, you have to remove all of that - -425 -00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:43,400 -and so on. - -426 -00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,160 -For, it doesn't, you know, like, and I mean, - -427 -00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,960 -we've seen that very recently that a lot of the reasons - -428 -00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,480 -are incredibly stupid for this kind of, you know, - -429 -00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,560 -like measures and deplatforming and so on. - -430 -00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,400 -And it's basically, in my opinion, it's an impossible problem. - -431 -00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,520 -And there are no solutions to this problem in the sense that - -432 -00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:08,120 -you can't, like, you either are okay with a central authoritarian authority. - -433 -00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,920 -You know, certificate authority. - -434 -00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,600 -It has authoritarian in its names. - -435 -00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,160 -Or you have to be okay with the decentralized, messy, - -436 -00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,320 -you know, doing it on the edges way of how Nostra is thinking about it, - -437 -00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,880 -which means also, you know, like, it's not a perfect solution. - -438 -00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,280 -It's like, Web of Trust is gameable. - -439 -00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,200 -It's like, if someone has a lot of money, - -440 -00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,600 -your rate limiting mechanism can be overwhelmed, - -441 -00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:31,320 -all those kind of things. - -442 -00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,320 -Like, I can pay to spam you and so on. - -443 -00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,440 -But as we, as we said, like, these, - -444 -00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,160 -these problems are problems that everyone have to pass through. - -445 -00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:39,800 -Yeah. - -446 -00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,640 -And there is no call them, like, a central bullet. - -447 -00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:44,440 -Yeah, exactly. - -448 -00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,480 -The trade-offs for these problems are so big and so - -449 -00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,560 -limiting that they are going to fall in the, in, yeah. - -450 -00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,120 -In something unusable, as right now is unusable, - -451 -00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:04,520 -like all this, all of this new logging methods and so on. - -452 -00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,360 -Like, it's making the life of very much difficulty. - -453 -00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:08,840 -Yeah. - -454 -00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:09,320 -Yeah. - -455 -00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,760 -Oh, oh, oh, this is a good use case as well for kind of like, - -456 -00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,360 -it had the best intentions. - -457 -00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:16,360 -And I think it was just a little bit too complicated - -458 -00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,440 -on the, on the technical side. - -459 -00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,320 -And it also, like, it, it centralized massively - -460 -00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,040 -because it's basically one school or Facebook becomes an old provider. - -461 -00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,680 -No one else is going to care about anything else. - -462 -00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:27,480 -I mean, yeah, in some sense. - -463 -00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,680 -It was really funny how that, how that, you know, - -464 -00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:31,800 -evolved in some sense. - -465 -00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,600 -But yeah, we'll see how it goes with, with, I mean, - -466 -00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,120 -there's still a long way until we can log in with not sure - -467 -00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:40,680 -everywhere. - -468 -00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,520 -But at least it has the potential to make it work. - -469 -00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:45,480 -Yeah. - -470 -00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,840 -So I mean, for me, one of the most exciting part and - -471 -00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:57,480 -the reason why I'm spending time and energy in these fields of open - -472 -00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,800 -source, sorry, I am jumping beyond tools and a lot of this. - -473 -00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:03,400 -Sorry. - -474 -00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,400 -Sorry. - -475 -00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,600 -You know, if I'm spending all this energy and time, - -476 -00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:18,760 -it's because there is a very clear path for open source in this, - -477 -00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,400 -in this new technologies, like all the I.A. - -478 -00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:26,200 -War is based on open source in the 50s, 70s. - -479 -00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:26,760 -Yeah. - -480 -00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,280 -All the work that have been done in that field is open source. - -481 -00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,000 -Like all the technologies that we have, mostly all almost all of them - -482 -00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,200 -is open source. - -483 -00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,680 -So they are open source alternatives that was the original one. - -484 -00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,760 -Do you, do you use open source models exclusively right now? - -485 -00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,840 -Or yeah, you're a purist. - -486 -00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,040 -I don't touch any open. - -487 -00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,240 -I like to use my own models or proxies. - -488 -00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,840 -So, so what have you used so far? - -489 -00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,160 -I like models. - -490 -00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,200 -Yeah, models. - -491 -00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:59,400 -I use a lot of models. - -492 -00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,640 -Like I, I like to spend a minute on to play with them locally. - -493 -00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:04,760 -The ones that I can afford. - -494 -00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,280 -But so you haven't upgraded your hardware yet. - -495 -00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:10,920 -So it's tiny llama. - -496 -00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,280 -Tiny llama. - -497 -00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,280 -I got seven billion parameters, models, things like that. - -498 -00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:16,760 -Okay. - -499 -00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:17,800 -I can afford much more. - -500 -00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:23,320 -But it's funny that most of the tiny ones are kind of good enough for a lot of things. - -501 -00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:23,800 -Oh, yeah. - -502 -00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:24,600 -It's really you. - -503 -00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,600 -No, I think I need tiny models. - -504 -00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:34,840 -It's also something that really excites me of this field because they give you some capacity, - -505 -00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,160 -some computation. - -506 -00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:42,520 -But it's not like an intelligent model that cannot solve big problems for you. - -507 -00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,480 -But definitely they can do some stuff. - -508 -00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:50,040 -And also you can train them and make them accurate for your specific uses. - -509 -00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,560 -Yeah, for that specific task and so on. - -510 -00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:57,160 -And I think that there, there's something really interesting in tiny models because they are going - -511 -00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:04,120 -to allow like a things appear like this, this protocol by Stanford that is called Minions. - -512 -00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,320 -I really like learning about the opinions. - -513 -00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:08,520 -Minions model? - -514 -00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:09,400 -Is it like a? - -515 -00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,280 -No, it's not a model. - -516 -00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:11,400 -It's a protocol itself. - -517 -00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,960 -But what's presented by Stanford like a, does it have anything to do with the little yellow - -518 -00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,000 -minions? Is that the idea? - -519 -00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:19,720 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -520 -00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,680 -It's a swarm of small, small, small, small models. - -521 -00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:23,160 -Exactly. - -522 -00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:23,480 -Exactly. - -523 -00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:23,800 -Great. - -524 -00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:24,200 -It's an internet. - -525 -00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,000 -It's a cyclic, it's a cyclic that. - -526 -00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:27,480 -Okay. - -527 -00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:34,760 -So the protocol describes a way to have this swarm of minions to something useful. - -528 -00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:35,640 -Yeah, exactly. - -529 -00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,480 -Even though every single one is super stupid. - -530 -00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:37,960 -Yeah. - -531 -00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:38,040 -Okay. - -532 -00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:47,480 -So the idea basically is you can kind of decompose a task into different minions that you can have. - -533 -00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:53,480 -And these minions are going to be collaborating with a standard provider that can be a more powerful - -534 -00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:54,760 -model or a proprietary model. - -535 -00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:01,480 -But the key here is that the minions are going to be anonymizing, anonymizing the data - -536 -00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:07,080 -and make it more specific, creating more specific tasks for the big model. - -537 -00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,120 -So you are going to be anonymizing the data. - -538 -00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:11,640 -So you still have, you still have a big model. - -539 -00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,480 -You still have a generalist to speak. - -540 -00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,400 -You still have a big model architect that has the overview of those kinds of things. - -541 -00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,040 -Yeah, I mean, in orchestrator for the minions in some sense. - -542 -00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:20,280 -Yeah. - -543 -00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,200 -Like tiny models are stupid. - -544 -00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:22,840 -Yeah, absolutely. - -545 -00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:23,320 -Pretty dumb. - -546 -00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,400 -But they are really good for a specific, very concise task. - -547 -00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:30,760 -So they can... - -548 -00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:31,240 -Give me one second. - -549 -00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,760 -I'm not sure if I hit record, actually. - -550 -00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,120 -It's like, yeah, there we go. - -551 -00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:35,080 -That's interesting. - -552 -00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:36,680 -It could be better than I'm adding. - -553 -00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:37,720 -No, no, no, no, no. - -554 -00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:38,360 -It's still good. - -555 -00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,000 -It's still good. - -556 -00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,720 -I always have a backup kind of, but it's like, I don't know. - -557 -00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,640 -You know, now that I have had half of my coffee, the brain starts firing again. - -558 -00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:46,680 -I think it's something to think about. - -559 -00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:47,640 -But it's... - -560 -00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,680 -Because what is interesting, in nature, you have a lot of stupid things - -561 -00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,000 -without the big orchestrator, and it still works and produces something smart, - -562 -00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,520 -like an ant colony or what have you. - -563 -00:28:58,520 --> 00:28:59,160 -No. - -564 -00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,800 -But in, yeah, yeah. - -565 -00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,040 -So that's why I was asking whether there's still a big one in some sense in charge, - -566 -00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,400 -because I talked about this, I think we've gathered as well, - -567 -00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,360 -but with Pablo in particular that, to me, - -568 -00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:23,080 -it's fascinating that we see the split between generalists and specialists, - -569 -00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,040 -and it has to happen. - -570 -00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,480 -Like, it has to be that way. - -571 -00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,040 -All the cognitive scientists will tell you it has to be this way, - -572 -00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,320 -because you cannot specialize and generalize at the same time. - -573 -00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:32,920 -It's in contradiction, basically. - -574 -00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,760 -So what I think we could have also, in theory, in some sense, - -575 -00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,320 -is something like you're describing, - -576 -00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,480 -but without a smart orchestrator model in charge in some sense. - -577 -00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:46,280 -I mean, I mean... - -578 -00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,160 -Well, I'll have to look into that. - -579 -00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,040 -That sounds fascinating. - -580 -00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,280 -No, it's a very, very interesting project, because... - -581 -00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,640 -You said Stanford? - -582 -00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:52,440 -Stanford, yeah. - -583 -00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:53,640 -University. - -584 -00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,280 -But, say, it's very interesting because it has blurred different topics - -585 -00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,480 -that we are going to need to explore, like privacy, in IA, - -586 -00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:08,360 -or in the interaction with LLMs, and how to leverage a local compute - -587 -00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,400 -that you can afford with these tiny models. - -588 -00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,640 -Ah, actually, yeah, yeah, yeah. - -589 -00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,480 -So that not everything concentrates in, like, - -590 -00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,080 -Facebook data centers, basically. - -591 -00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,280 -Yeah, yeah, exactly. - -592 -00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,680 -So the key here is that you can get your queries or your prompts, - -593 -00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:23,880 -anonymized. - -594 -00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,400 -Yeah, I see. - -595 -00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,640 -So, like, SETI at home, like SETI at home. - -596 -00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,960 -You know that, from the old days, - -597 -00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,320 -searching for extraterrestrial life at home, - -598 -00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,080 -of, like, running a screensafe and stuff. - -599 -00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,520 -So that would be minions at home, - -600 -00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,240 -where it's just, like, you have whatever compute packets that you run, - -601 -00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,120 -and, yeah, well, yeah, but they will run into the issue of payments. - -602 -00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:53,000 -Because you want to sell your idle GPU, or CPU, or RAM, or what have you. - -603 -00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,080 -And, I mean, that's what, actually, in the first cohort, - -604 -00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,480 -we talked a little bit about that with blinded compute, - -605 -00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,320 -and I talked with Kelly about that as well, - -606 -00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,720 -like blinded compute and serial knowledge proofs, - -607 -00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:04,920 -and those kind of things. - -608 -00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,400 -That's going to be so interesting when, like, - -609 -00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,160 -it's not an if, but it's a when, like, when we get this to work. - -610 -00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,240 -Yeah, I think that, as I was saying at the beginning, - -611 -00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:20,760 -we are in this, like, the left side of this publicity cult, - -612 -00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:21,720 -like at the hype. - -613 -00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,560 -Yeah, we're also at the left side of the bell curve. - -614 -00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:24,360 -Yeah. - -615 -00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,440 -I hope this is a good part. - -616 -00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:33,720 -But for me, the fascinating part is that no sir kind of fits well - -617 -00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:39,960 -in all of this new party, because it has some kind of answers - -618 -00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,240 -to the program, to the programatics that we are starting to see. - -619 -00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,360 -And for me, that is fascinating because it's kind of getting right. - -620 -00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,440 -Yeah, I mean, it's also, it's not super surprising. - -621 -00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,680 -I mean, no sir was built, Bitcoin was built for people, - -622 -00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:56,760 -for people at the edges. - -623 -00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:57,880 -It's like, what do you do? - -624 -00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,200 -What do you use when you don't have an identity? - -625 -00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,960 -Like, you're from Ghana, you're 14, - -626 -00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,720 -but you have access to some compute, but you don't have a passport, - -627 -00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,400 -you don't have an ID, you don't even know when your birthday is, - -628 -00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,600 -those kind of things, you know. - -629 -00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,240 -And agents have the same problem. - -630 -00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,160 -They are not, like, in the eyes of the snake, they are not people. - -631 -00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,840 -And so they can't KYC, you know, like, they have all these issues and so on. - -632 -00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,160 -And that's on the identity side. - -633 -00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,800 -And that's why, I mean, most people thought a lot, - -634 -00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,760 -and Bitcoin people in general, they thought long and hard about identity. - -635 -00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:29,640 -What do you need? - -636 -00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,560 -What kind of identity do you actually need to authenticate yourself - -637 -00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,360 -towards a compute system, in some sense? - -638 -00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,080 -And it's not a passport, like, that's, I mean, - -639 -00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,240 -cypherpunk's figured in the South a long time ago, - -640 -00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,600 -it must not be a state-sanctioned identity, because that, again, - -641 -00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,200 -if you have a certificate authority, you run into authoritarian problems. - -642 -00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,800 -That's just how it works. - -643 -00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,600 -And the other part on an ostracile, which I mean, you know, - -644 -00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,160 -Bitcoin is in particular kind of thought long and hard about, - -645 -00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,880 -Nixabo in particular, is the micro-payment side. - -646 -00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,240 -And the kind of, what is the difference between credit and money? - -647 -00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,880 -And why do you, why can't you use credit, basically, for most of those things? - -648 -00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,480 -And you always run into these limits, settlement limits, - -649 -00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,440 -with micro-payments and also cognitive decision limits and all those kind of things. - -650 -00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,080 -And I don't know of another group of people that thought about this problem - -651 -00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,640 -for an extended period of time. - -652 -00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,640 -It actually actively worked on solutions. - -653 -00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,400 -And so, again, it's not surprising. - -654 -00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,440 -It's very poetic that noster is kind of the perfect fit, - -655 -00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,640 -but it's also not very surprising, because, again, - -656 -00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,040 -agents, they're going to need some sort of identity, - -657 -00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,200 -and it's not going to be state-sanctioned identity. - -658 -00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,760 -And they need some sort of payments, and it's not going to be stripe accounts. - -659 -00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,360 -You know, it's not going to be credit rates. - -660 -00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,240 -Like, they can't, they just can't do it. - -661 -00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:56,040 -And we already have agents that can autonomously sap with NIP-60. - -662 -00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,400 -And we also have, I mean, you build stuff where you can pay agents, - -663 -00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,800 -and agents can pay lightning and voices, and so on. - -664 -00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,400 -So all this stuff already works. - -665 -00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:06,600 -It's just like no one knows about it. - -666 -00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,400 -There's like three people that are experimenting with that right now. - -667 -00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,240 -Yeah, and also we have a little bit early. - -668 -00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:14,600 -Our own problematics, you know. - -669 -00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:15,080 -Oh, sure. - -670 -00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,640 -About all the things and the path and specifications and so on. - -671 -00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,080 -But there is a different distribution. - -672 -00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,480 -I mean, none of that is perfect by any means, - -673 -00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:30,680 -but the thing is that it is the right solution in theory, so to speak. - -674 -00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,920 -And it also already works in practice. - -675 -00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,600 -And I think that's why I urge everyone to kind of, you know, - -676 -00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:37,400 -write a better tutorial. - -677 -00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,640 -A lot of people play around with it, because the stuff is further along than you would think. - -678 -00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,280 -And no one really knows about it yet, - -679 -00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:45,960 -especially on the AI side. - -680 -00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,120 -The AI people don't really know about this stuff yet. - -681 -00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,320 -Even in our little noster bubble, most people don't know - -682 -00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,640 -that we actually have autonomous agents already that can set things. - -683 -00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,880 -Yeah, I'm fucking hell, I'm fucking hell. - -684 -00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,400 -And that's true, because, you know, it's going to be permissionless or hell. - -685 -00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,400 -Like, it's not a middle ground. - -686 -00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,560 -Like, it cannot be semi-permissioned and still working. - -687 -00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,240 -It has to be totally permissionless. - -688 -00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:17,320 -Like, I should be able to do anything within a local scope. - -689 -00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,560 -I don't need the global scope for the majority of things. - -690 -00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,320 -Like, for example, if I want to automate my house - -691 -00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:28,280 -and have some NCP tools that control the lights on my house, - -692 -00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,520 -so I don't want to ask permission to win or to add. - -693 -00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,000 -You also don't want to send all that stuff to the cloud, you know, - -694 -00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,520 -and all those kind of things. - -695 -00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:46,600 -Yeah, that's the cool thing, that also the noster architecture and EKASH as well. - -696 -00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,960 -And it's very usable in a local-first environment. - -697 -00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,200 -It's just like, you can set up your home relay, - -698 -00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,280 -you can, you know, do all those kind of things, - -699 -00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,000 -you can set up a minted home, like who cares. - -700 -00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,160 -And you just, you know, all the data stays in your house, basically. - -701 -00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,000 -All the stuff stays in your house, you don't, again, - -702 -00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,960 -you don't need an API key, you don't need the cloud for anything. - -703 -00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,360 -And it's still super powerful stuff. - -704 -00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,400 -So, yeah, we'll see. - -705 -00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,280 -I mean, again, like you said, none of that works. - -706 -00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,520 -We have our own issues, working through all of that. - -707 -00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:21,880 -Yeah, we are discovering that, man. - -708 -00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,240 -And definitely, there are going to be solutions, - -709 -00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:30,120 -and ways to, more clear ways to do things once we discover - -710 -00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,360 -what is the real potential for all this, - -711 -00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,680 -because now everyone is experimenting. - -712 -00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,120 -And that's why it's a very exciting technology, you know, - -713 -00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,880 -like a technology that doesn't fully work. - -714 -00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:48,680 -It works sometimes, but it's not yet like a solid, in a way. - -715 -00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,800 -So that makes that this technology exciting. - -716 -00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,520 -Yeah, I hope that more people are going to pick it up. - -717 -00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,200 -Let's do one more ring around here, - -718 -00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:57,960 -and then let's go to the park or something. - -719 -00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,440 -But I hope that more people are going to play around with DB MCP, - -720 -00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:03,640 -and all those kinds of things, - -721 -00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,640 -and just actually publish code snippets, - -722 -00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,880 -and publish MCP tools, and so on. - -723 -00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,560 -Because it's super easy to do, actually, - -724 -00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,320 -and we have the marketplace already. - -725 -00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:12,440 -And once you have a marketplace, - -726 -00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,720 -I think that's what I talked about this briefly, - -727 -00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:17,720 -I think on Friday night or something. - -728 -00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,960 -I think most awesome software, - -729 -00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,880 -most great things that we have today, - -730 -00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,720 -came from the marketplace approach in some sense. - -731 -00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:30,120 -And the way I mean it is like most browsers, - -732 -00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,440 -for example, that we have that are fantastic. - -733 -00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,240 -They were made fantastic by a community of people - -734 -00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:37,000 -that was writing extensions. - -735 -00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,200 -And then the extensions got merged upstream, - -736 -00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,360 -and it just became a normal thing, and those kinds of things. - -737 -00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,640 -And we really need to tap into that, basically, - -738 -00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,440 -into the wisdom of the crowd, in some sense. - -739 -00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:51,160 -Games as well. - -740 -00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,280 -The biggest games that we have now in the world, - -741 -00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,280 -like computer games, they were all mods. - -742 -00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:57,240 -They were all game mods. - -743 -00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:59,080 -Like Dota came from Walk of Three, - -744 -00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,720 -basically it was just a defense of the Asians mod. - -745 -00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:05,480 -And Counter Strike came from Half-Life, - -746 -00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,640 -that's basically, and all those kinds of things. - -747 -00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:13,320 -And I can't wait to see what other people are going to build, - -748 -00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,000 -what kind of MCP tools they are going to build, - -749 -00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:16,280 -what kind of DVM's they build. - -750 -00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,040 -Once they realize that there is this marketplace, - -751 -00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,040 -and also an important part, I think, - -752 -00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,520 -will also be like, you can immediately make money with it. - -753 -00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,400 -I mean, right now, it's like you're going to make 20 stats. - -754 -00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,400 -I don't know, 21 probably. - -755 -00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:35,320 -But the fact that money and identity and reputation - -756 -00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,960 -is infused into all of that, it makes it so exciting. - -757 -00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:39,160 -Because you can actually, - -758 -00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,360 -it's like a permissionless App Store, - -759 -00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,200 -and you can publish to it. - -760 -00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,120 -And App Store shows, for example, - -761 -00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:45,880 -that this is really already working. - -762 -00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,800 -And App Store is very, very young as well. - -763 -00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,800 -I mean, it came out of the first cohort, basically. - -764 -00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,000 -So it's less than a year old. - -765 -00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,600 -That's why I have so high hopes for DVMTP as well, - -766 -00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:57,480 -and all those kind of things. - -767 -00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,120 -I think I also think, I totally agree with you. - -768 -00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,800 -And I also think that it's such a powerful thing, - -769 -00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:09,400 -because all this kind of fake sensation of control, - -770 -00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,640 -that these big companies have about us, - -771 -00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:14,520 -it's not going to work. - -772 -00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,960 -Because the fucking viruses that are in the App Store are in the place for. - -773 -00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:20,040 -But a part of that, - -774 -00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:25,400 -I think that we have this sensation of control by them, - -775 -00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,040 -because we don't have the right way to collaborate. - -776 -00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,840 -We were talking the other day about the whole YouTube. - -777 -00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,680 -It became a fucking hell to use to enjoy watching videos and so on, - -778 -00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,240 -because you are going to get limited or you are going to get a... - -779 -00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:43,400 -If you use a VPN, you are not welcome anymore. - -780 -00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:51,240 -I literally, I wanted to download a video that I myself uploaded, - -781 -00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:53,880 -that I myself recorded, of a talk that I myself gave, - -782 -00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:55,800 -from my own YouTube account. - -783 -00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:56,120 -Yeah. - -784 -00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:56,760 -And I couldn't. - -785 -00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:57,720 -I just, I couldn't. - -786 -00:39:57,720 --> 00:39:59,080 -It wouldn't allow me to record. - -787 -00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,160 -I tried for way, for longer than I would like to admit. - -788 -00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,960 -But for me, disabling my VPN is very involved, - -789 -00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,560 -because I basically, like, - -790 -00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,840 -I have two routers, and on every router I run a separate VPN. - -791 -00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,160 -And so just, I'm not going to go into my router settings - -792 -00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,040 -and disable all VPNs, and just, I just gave up. - -793 -00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,000 -And I was like, - -794 -00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,800 -okay, I guess I'm never going to upload anything to YouTube anymore. - -795 -00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,440 -Yeah, but I think that's, that's the, and we discussed this also a little bit - -796 -00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,040 -the last couple of weeks. - -797 -00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,520 -I hope that Noster can provide a kind of safe haven for that as well, - -798 -00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,680 -where it's just like, you have, - -799 -00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,080 -and the DVMs will play a part in that as well, - -800 -00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,520 -because you don't want to do all that manually. - -801 -00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,360 -But basically, I have a YouTube account, - -802 -00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:39,640 -I have some videos on it. - -803 -00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,640 -I want to, basically, grab them and archive them on my own, - -804 -00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,480 -on my private blossom, for example. - -805 -00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,200 -You know, and it's just like, I'm willing to pay for that. - -806 -00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,320 -So if there's a DVM for that, if someone creates a DVM for that, - -807 -00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,880 -please let me know, because like, you'll have my sets, - -808 -00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,400 -so that I can have my videos again. - -809 -00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,000 -That's what I was talking about. - -810 -00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:01,720 -If we found the good ways to collaborate between us - -811 -00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:03,800 -and share the resources that we have, - -812 -00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,240 -for example, the IP, the domestic IP that we have, - -813 -00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,600 -and everyone have, when they have internet, - -814 -00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:11,960 -yeah, kind of VPN. - -815 -00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,920 -Yeah, you are just listening to your IP service. - -816 -00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,320 -If you have some hard time space left, - -817 -00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,880 -and it's like, say for the GPUs and CPUs. - -818 -00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:20,520 -Exactly. - -819 -00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,520 -So I think that this kind of fake sensation of control, - -820 -00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,600 -that these companies have about us, - -821 -00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,120 -is because we haven't found yet the right way to collaborate. - -822 -00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:30,920 -Yeah, yeah. - -823 -00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,800 -And I think that no sir have something, - -824 -00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,640 -got something right in the approach to communication, - -825 -00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,920 -and the architecture of the network and so on, - -826 -00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,240 -that we can find the right way to collaborate - -827 -00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:45,720 -and really reduce the amount of control - -828 -00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:48,840 -that these companies and these entities have over us. - -829 -00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,000 -Yeah, let's hope that we'll figure it out. - -830 -00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,680 -I mean, it's about time. - -831 -00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,480 -It's like, it's stuff will only get more restrictive, - -832 -00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,320 -I think, and more crazy kind of, - -833 -00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,160 -and it's just now everyone. - -834 -00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,880 -I mean, it's funny how it works now, - -835 -00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,440 -because basically all these giant companies - -836 -00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,640 -were built up to lock everyone in. - -837 -00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,880 -It's like giant prisons in some sense, - -838 -00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,800 -and you're locked in this golden cage, - -839 -00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,160 -and you're getting advertisements - -840 -00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:22,120 -jumped down your throat. - -841 -00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:24,920 -It's fucking brutal. - -842 -00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,280 -It's fucking brutal, yes. - -843 -00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,040 -And that's how they made their wealth, basically. - -844 -00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,920 -And now, it's like this switcher rule, - -845 -00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,920 -where it's still a cage, - -846 -00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,040 -but now at the same time that this is happening, - -847 -00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,160 -you use this training data, basically. - -848 -00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,840 -And so I think this will only get worse, - -849 -00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,560 -and more political, and like, how, - -850 -00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,960 -what is the LLM allowed to say, and see, - -851 -00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:51,240 -and what do you train it on, - -852 -00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:53,480 -and it's like, we see this with the Chinese selling them, - -853 -00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,520 -so where it's like, you know, I don't know, - -854 -00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:57,720 -Tian Man Square, or whatever, - -855 -00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:01,000 -like whatever the usual phrases are to test these systems, - -856 -00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,000 -and it's like, oh, I can't tell you anything about this, - -857 -00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:03,880 -because it never happened. - -858 -00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,200 -And I mean, and don't make the mistake that, - -859 -00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,720 -you know, the glorious West, - -860 -00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:11,960 -the glorious US has everything perfect, - -861 -00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,480 -and doesn't meddle with history, - -862 -00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:14,760 -and doesn't meddle with censorship. - -863 -00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,680 -It's just a different kind of, you know, - -864 -00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,360 -manipulation and censorship. - -865 -00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,000 -So I really think that when we reach the top - -866 -00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,280 -of the publicity club, that it's going to happen - -867 -00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,040 -eventually in one year, two years, do you name it? - -868 -00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:30,920 -I don't know. - -869 -00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:32,520 -But when we start to go down, - -870 -00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:33,480 -I think that it's going to, - -871 -00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,400 -the going down is going to be driving - -872 -00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,000 -by these fundamental questions about all of this, - -873 -00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:45,640 -like from where the LLM get the data that... - -874 -00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,800 -What is true, what is true? - -875 -00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:48,760 -Yeah, what is true? - -876 -00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:49,640 -It's going to be the question. - -877 -00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,640 -All the intellectual property people - -878 -00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,840 -are going to be questioning all these things, - -879 -00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,720 -artists, they're going to be a lot of questions - -880 -00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:04,360 -that are going to drive a lot of discussion. - -881 -00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,600 -And I think that this discussion are going to - -882 -00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,480 -slow down in some way, or at least make people realize - -883 -00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,600 -what is the potential, or what is the real, - -884 -00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,720 -it's cold, it's a big one. - -885 -00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:19,400 -Because I think that we are not realizing yet - -886 -00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,560 -because we are so excited and so hyped - -887 -00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,400 -for these new technologies that we are not answering - -888 -00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,800 -those questions yet, as well as we are not answering - -889 -00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,160 -vibing into this topic. - -890 -00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,320 -Yeah, right now. - -891 -00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,560 -Yeah, I don't disagree, I don't disagree. - -892 -00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,440 -We are going to realize that we are going to have - -893 -00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,640 -to answer questions that we haven't answered yet. - -894 -00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,320 -So I think that it's going to drive up - -895 -00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,720 -at the realization. - -896 -00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:44,840 -I'll have to undress. - -897 -00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,680 -I feel the flames of hell already. - -898 -00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:49,480 -Yeah, it's going to be hard. - -899 -00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,360 -It's, I think, I think with, - -900 -00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,040 -yeah, I mean, give me a second. - -901 -00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,920 -So it turns out that, you know, the founding fathers - -902 -00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,720 -of the US, oh my lord, is it still rolling? - -903 -00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:05,800 -Is it bulletproof? - -904 -00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:06,440 -No one knows. - -905 -00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:08,040 -Oh yeah, it still works. - -906 -00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:08,440 -Let's go. - -907 -00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,800 -I'm just glad I didn't drop it into the sea. - -908 -00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,880 -Like we would be entirely possible as well. - -909 -00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,600 -But the, you know, I mean, - -910 -00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:21,880 -I feel like we went through all that before. - -911 -00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,200 -Okay, without LLMs, but still, - -912 -00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,440 -probably without LLMs, who knows what kind of technology - -913 -00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:29,240 -the Egyptians had. - -914 -00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:37,640 -But I mean, there's a reason why we don't dictate truth. - -915 -00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,560 -There's a reason why everyone should be hurt - -916 -00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:42,920 -and everyone should be allowed to speak - -917 -00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,520 -and why we landed on the First Amendment - -918 -00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,360 -and why the logos is sacred and so on. - -919 -00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,040 -I mean, I always repeat the same things. - -920 -00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,280 -But it's, there is a deep seated reason - -921 -00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,640 -and it is exactly the reason that the world is so complex, - -922 -00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:58,920 -you cannot, there is no, who should be the arbiter of truth? - -923 -00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,000 -It's sure as fuck is not going to be an LLM. - -924 -00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:01,560 -Yeah. - -925 -00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:06,120 -It's, and so you need, you need this open permissionless world - -926 -00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,800 -that allows anyone to speak. - -927 -00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,880 -Otherwise, including LLMs, including agents - -928 -00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,560 -and including regular people and so on. - -929 -00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,640 -Otherwise, we have no chance of figuring out what's true. - -930 -00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:14,680 -Like, no chance at all. - -931 -00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,360 -If there's only like two or three models - -932 -00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:17,800 -and they determine what the truth is - -933 -00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:19,160 -or like, there's one Skynet - -934 -00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:20,680 -and it determines what the truth is. - -935 -00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:21,800 -Like, we're in hell already. - -936 -00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:23,560 -There's no, there's no difference. - -937 -00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,360 -And, and I feel like that's what annoys me about the, - -938 -00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:29,560 -all the AI bros and I listen to so many of them now. - -939 -00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,240 -Like, I, I just want to puke. - -940 -00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:33,720 -Like, my, my brain is basically throwing up constantly - -941 -00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:36,680 -because I just, two X, all the AI bro talking - -942 -00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,160 -over the last couple months into my brain. - -943 -00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,680 -And they just, it's, it's, it's, it's very apparent to me - -944 -00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,520 -that no one of them ever listened to any philosopher's ever. - -945 -00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:46,920 -I don't know. - -946 -00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,800 -And, and, and they actually figured some things out - -947 -00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,880 -over the last couple thousand years, you know. - -948 -00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,280 -So, and, and Silicon Valley is very dismissive - -949 -00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:54,920 -of all that stuff. - -950 -00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,840 -So, yeah, but, you know, talking about philosophy, - -951 -00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,880 -I think that there's a very important topic to touch - -952 -00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,520 -because we cannot forget - -953 -00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,320 -fundamental questions in our modern times. - -954 -00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,360 -Like, I'm talking about 50 years ago or something. - -955 -00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,640 -We didn't have the penetration of the technology - -956 -00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,200 -that we have to know this society. - -957 -00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,240 -And we're still not answering some fundamental questions - -958 -00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:20,280 -about that. - -959 -00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,240 -And we kind of nightly use everything. - -960 -00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:27,080 -Like, we, we kind of, we never understood - -961 -00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,560 -what means to have some communication between people. - -962 -00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:30,280 -Oh, yeah. - -963 -00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,120 -I mean, we, we, we still don't know. - -964 -00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:33,320 -And talking about something. - -965 -00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:34,360 -Oh, what the internet is basically. - -966 -00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:34,760 -Exactly. - -967 -00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,680 -Like, and we are talking about things - -968 -00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,920 -that now people take us totally normal. - -969 -00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:39,400 -Yeah. - -970 -00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,520 -And even, you know, like something required. - -971 -00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,760 -I mean, you know, like, I mean, there, there is, - -972 -00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,400 -it's very obvious that we are not well adapted to that. - -973 -00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,720 -I mean, there's a reason why the suicide rate is like, - -974 -00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:52,040 -as high as it ever was in the history of humanity, - -975 -00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,600 -basically, that, that we have the meaning crisis. - -976 -00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,920 -I mean, I mentioned Verveke all the time in, in conversation, - -977 -00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,760 -but, but if you, if you ever want to learn about - -978 -00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:02,280 -the meaning crisis, basically, like, - -979 -00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:03,640 -that's your guy. - -980 -00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,960 -He has like a, a 50 part lecture on why is it - -981 -00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,360 -that everyone feels like hopeless and meaningless - -982 -00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,520 -and all the people, you know, like, why do we have a math, - -983 -00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:17,960 -problem worldwide, basically? - -984 -00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,800 -Well, why do we have, yeah, a suicide epidemic - -985 -00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:22,840 -and all those kinds of things. - -986 -00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,840 -I think it relates to all this stuff where, - -987 -00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:27,720 -and that's also, that's one thing that the eyebrows, - -988 -00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:28,600 -for example, get wrong. - -989 -00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,480 -I think it's, it's, we are, - -990 -00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,360 -in some sense, disconnected from reality already. - -991 -00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,120 -Um, just by, you know, being on the screens all the time, - -992 -00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,440 -stroke, doom scrolling all the time and so on, - -993 -00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,160 -not, not really touching grass, you know, like, - -994 -00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:43,880 -we do it right now. - -995 -00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,560 -Screen, literally touching grass right now. - -996 -00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,040 -That's why this is outside, outside conversation. - -997 -00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,480 -But, but, and, and again, like, this is not, - -998 -00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,400 -these are not my arguments, it's all Verveke's arguments, - -999 -00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,800 -but it's, it's, we, we lost touch with reality - -1000 -00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,640 -and that is very, very unhealthy. - -1001 -00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:06,440 -And the, the, the thing about LLMs is they were never - -1002 -00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,360 -in touch with reality in the first place. - -1003 -00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,760 -And so his whole argument is like, - -1004 -00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,480 -to make them truly care about information, - -1005 -00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:14,520 -we would have to embody them, - -1006 -00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,000 -because why do you care about information? - -1007 -00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,320 -It's basically, because I think I'm going to die. - -1008 -00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,240 -Yeah, if you don't care about drinking or eating, - -1009 -00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:21,960 -you're going to die. - -1010 -00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,120 -So if you really, really thirsty, thirsty, - -1011 -00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,160 -your whole salience landscape and your whole being - -1012 -00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:28,600 -is about, I need to drink. - -1013 -00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:30,840 -That's the, that's the information you're caring about. - -1014 -00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:32,040 -And everything stems from there. - -1015 -00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,240 -So basically, through human-like intelligence, - -1016 -00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:37,000 -grounds out in being itself. - -1017 -00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,520 -Yeah. And grounds out in embodiment - -1018 -00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:39,320 -and all those kind of things. - -1019 -00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,560 -Yeah. And the, the AI bros completely glides over that. - -1020 -00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,040 -They're just like, yeah. - -1021 -00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:44,680 -Well, you know. - -1022 -00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,840 -I think that they are used to more people - -1023 -00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,840 -that are assuming things as normal. - -1024 -00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:49,240 -Yeah. - -1025 -00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:51,960 -I got this, this, this, what they was talking about. - -1026 -00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,680 -Also like, why, why, why do you want to spread out and conquer? - -1027 -00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,920 -Like, first of all, not every human. - -1028 -00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,040 -Like, a minority, a minority of humanity - -1029 -00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:01,720 -wants to spread out and conquer everything. - -1030 -00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:02,040 -Yeah. - -1031 -00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,440 -A minority of like psychopaths, basically. - -1032 -00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:04,840 -Yeah. - -1033 -00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,160 -Most people are content, you know? - -1034 -00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,160 -It's like, truly a minority of humans - -1035 -00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,400 -wants to spread through the universe - -1036 -00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:12,920 -and, you know, plant their seed everywhere - -1037 -00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:13,720 -and conquer everything. - -1038 -00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:14,200 -Yeah. - -1039 -00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,720 -And all the AI people basically make the argument - -1040 -00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:19,320 -that this is what the AI is going to do - -1041 -00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,240 -because it wants to do, because it's the right thing to do. - -1042 -00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:26,280 -And it's like, most, like, why is exploration, - -1043 -00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,440 -why does it have such a high value in the first place? - -1044 -00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:29,960 -Because scientists are explorers - -1045 -00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,760 -and all the AI arguments are written by researchers - -1046 -00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:33,800 -which are scientists, you know? - -1047 -00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,880 -Like, why go out and find out new things? - -1048 -00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:36,520 -What's the appeal? - -1049 -00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:37,960 -Like, a tree doesn't do that. - -1050 -00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:38,440 -Yeah. - -1051 -00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,080 -But we would never argue that the tree is not a life, for example. - -1052 -00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,560 -Or also, like a tree is very smart as well, you know? - -1053 -00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:44,200 -It's like, of course. - -1054 -00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,680 -And we wouldn't have a better smart shape for the environment. - -1055 -00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,480 -Yeah, you're, you're adopted to the environment and so on. - -1056 -00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,360 -And it's unclear to what kind of environment - -1057 -00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,160 -the LLMs are adapted for because, again, - -1058 -00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,160 -like, they're not really embodied in that sense. - -1059 -00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,000 -And I mean, they're adapting right now for, you know, like, - -1060 -00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,760 -if you want to be, I don't know, if you want to be generous, - -1061 -00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,320 -then it's like a symbiotic relationship with humanity. - -1062 -00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,440 -If you want to be, I don't know, more, - -1063 -00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,320 -if you woke up with the doomer foot in you, - -1064 -00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,040 -then it's like they're parasitic on humanity. - -1065 -00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,840 -It's like, but yeah, I don't know. - -1066 -00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:26,760 -Anyway, well, thanks for coming to my talk. - -1067 -00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,160 -The coffee is clearly working. - -1068 -00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:29,400 -Yeah. - -1069 -00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:31,640 -It's very fun for me, too. - -1070 -00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,840 -But I think that there is something very important to reflect - -1071 -00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:41,160 -here because, like, the penetration of technology, as I was saying, - -1072 -00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,480 -is something that is new, you know? - -1073 -00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:43,880 -Yeah. - -1074 -00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,880 -Like, we don't understand, we don't understand it yet as a society. - -1075 -00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,680 -Yeah, experts that say, or, you know, - -1076 -00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:53,880 -scalloped experts got it right. - -1077 -00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:54,840 -Exactly. - -1078 -00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:55,560 -I'm telling you. - -1079 -00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:56,440 -Like, I was saying... - -1080 -00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:57,880 -The older I get, the more, - -1081 -00:51:57,880 --> 00:51:59,880 -also visually, the more I turn myself into that. - -1082 -00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:03,400 -Yeah, they got the rights, definitely. - -1083 -00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:05,880 -But I think that we are going to, - -1084 -00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,400 -we are going to have to pass through through through all these answers - -1085 -00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:13,400 -and questions. - -1086 -00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,400 -Like, we are going to have to answer a lot of the questions - -1087 -00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,200 -that we avoid to answer for more than 50 years. - -1088 -00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:19,720 -Do you think we're going to make it? - -1089 -00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:21,080 -I think that we are going to make it. - -1090 -00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:22,840 -You're optimistic, in the end? - -1091 -00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:28,200 -I'm bullish on philosophy, definitely. - -1092 -00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:29,560 -I think that there is... - -1093 -00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,720 -We are going to recover some fundamental questions - -1094 -00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:34,120 -that we avoid to answer for so many years. - -1095 -00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:36,760 -And that's because we are going to reach - -1096 -00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,840 -some level of consciousness about the environment that we are living in - -1097 -00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:44,600 -and the surroundings that we have around. - -1098 -00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:49,560 -And, for example, I was saying yesterday, this... - -1099 -00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,960 -...case of Olaskad, Sarah with... - -1100 -00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:55,240 -I don't know. - -1101 -00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:56,920 -This woman that is against Facebook, - -1102 -00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,800 -Meta, that he sees revealing all these details. - -1103 -00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,240 -Didn't she also write... - -1104 -00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:04,440 -Didn't she also... - -1105 -00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,760 -I think she sued Pornhub with the same number? - -1106 -00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,120 -Well, I don't know, baby. - -1107 -00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,480 -I used to write the bell, but I'm not sure. - -1108 -00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,040 -But did you say Sarah White or something like that? - -1109 -00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:19,320 -Sarah White, Sarah White something more. - -1110 -00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:21,240 -I don't remember right now. - -1111 -00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:22,440 -I'm very bad for names. - -1112 -00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:23,560 -But I'll try to find... - -1113 -00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:27,400 -Because there is a great book on it on the Pornhub thing, - -1114 -00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:28,760 -but it might be something else entirely. - -1115 -00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:30,680 -It was published three days ago. - -1116 -00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:31,320 -That was a... - -1117 -00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:39,400 -But she, in this declaration that she do, - -1118 -00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,240 -she talks about whole Facebook or Meta now, - -1119 -00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:51,560 -they kind of leverage their ability to spy into the world, - -1120 -00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,320 -sorry, into the life of people. - -1121 -00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:54,840 -Because, for example, they treat... - -1122 -00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,000 -Like, if you are a teenager, - -1123 -00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:02,280 -a teenager of 15 years old or 15 between 13 and 17, - -1124 -00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,200 -and you, for example, upload a selfie, - -1125 -00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,600 -and then you delete the selfie, - -1126 -00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,040 -they take this as a signal... - -1127 -00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:08,600 -Oh, of course. - -1128 -00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,040 -...of the kind of depression... - -1129 -00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:10,760 -Yeah, sure. - -1130 -00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:11,640 -...or bad mood. - -1131 -00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,120 -Targeted advertising for the mood boosters. - -1132 -00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:15,080 -Yeah, let's go. - -1133 -00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:19,160 -So, which means that the advertising industry - -1134 -00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,880 -is going to try to make you down all the time. - -1135 -00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:22,440 -Sure, sure. - -1136 -00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:23,240 -So, how do you think? - -1137 -00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:23,640 -Sure. - -1138 -00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,160 -Because it's more efficient. - -1139 -00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,200 -It's more effective for them to sell you things with your depressed. - -1140 -00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,320 -I don't even think that this was the plan from the get-go. - -1141 -00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,200 -I don't think all these companies were founded too. - -1142 -00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:38,120 -Hey, let's do this and let's make all the 14-year-old teenage girls - -1143 -00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,920 -depressed and then sell them pills and whatever. - -1144 -00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:42,520 -I don't think there was the plan. - -1145 -00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:48,760 -But once you build the system and you do this data-driven advertisement campaigns, basically, - -1146 -00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:50,680 -this is what works best, you know? - -1147 -00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:54,840 -And it's like, you don't even stand back and reflect and ask like, - -1148 -00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:55,640 -why are we doing this? - -1149 -00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,600 -It's just like, okay, we have to hit the quarterly profit margins - -1150 -00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:02,600 -and we have to, you know, we are obliged to maximize shareholder value - -1151 -00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:03,800 -and all this kind of stuff. - -1152 -00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,520 -And then you just do all these things and it's like, okay, - -1153 -00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,600 -if we tweak this little knob here, - -1154 -00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:13,080 -then we'll increase our revenue by like, you know, 10% or whatever. - -1155 -00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,040 -And that's how it happens. - -1156 -00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:15,880 -It's just like, it's hell man. - -1157 -00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:22,040 -Like when I was listening to this woman, like the first thing much that appeared in my mind - -1158 -00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:27,000 -was, you know, Harry Potter, the mentors, like these kind of spirits - -1159 -00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,200 -that suit your bad energy and they can sit by that. - -1160 -00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:30,920 -Yeah, absolutely. - -1161 -00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,400 -So that was the first thing much that appeared in my mind, - -1162 -00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,320 -just when I was hitting this woman. - -1163 -00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:35,800 -Yeah. - -1164 -00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:40,360 -Yeah, as a fact, like a whole whole effect, we as a society, - -1165 -00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:49,640 -we let entities like these take us as I manage our emotions, our state. - -1166 -00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:50,600 -And that's the thing. - -1167 -00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,400 -That's that's also what most people kind of gloss over, - -1168 -00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,040 -like bringing it back to the LLMs and all those kind of things. - -1169 -00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,240 -It's a corporation like Facebook or like Google or what have you, - -1170 -00:55:59,240 --> 00:56:02,520 -is already alien intelligence. - -1171 -00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:02,840 -Yeah. - -1172 -00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:04,440 -It's a non-human intelligence. - -1173 -00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:05,000 -Yeah. - -1174 -00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,600 -Like a city or a corporation or a state or what have you. - -1175 -00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:12,360 -It's already a superhuman intelligence. - -1176 -00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:13,560 -It just is. - -1177 -00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:17,720 -And so we can deal with those as well in some sense, you know? - -1178 -00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:21,960 -Like they are not necessarily destroying us all and so on. - -1179 -00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:27,160 -I mean, in the Facebook and Google a little bit, but you get my point. - -1180 -00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:31,560 -It's like, people forgot that we already have these agentic systems - -1181 -00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,640 -that are bigger than a single human. - -1182 -00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:35,720 -And we learn to kind of deal with them. - -1183 -00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:36,760 -I think we suck at it. - -1184 -00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:38,280 -I think we're really bad at it right now. - -1185 -00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,120 -I think we used to be better in the past. - -1186 -00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:40,360 -Yeah. - -1187 -00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,080 -Because in the past, everything we had is spirit. - -1188 -00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:53,480 -We knew how to like, we were able to deal with this better because we knew that these things existed. - -1189 -00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:53,880 -Yeah. - -1190 -00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:59,000 -There is such a thing like, I don't know, the spirit of anger or the spirit of lust. - -1191 -00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:00,520 -And you know how to deal with it, for example. - -1192 -00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,160 -Like it's its own entity that does things. - -1193 -00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:06,680 -And if you're possessed by a spirit, then that's how you act. - -1194 -00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:07,160 -And so on. - -1195 -00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,560 -And it's like, I think we see this with the Facebook engineers, for example. - -1196 -00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,000 -It's like, if you're possessed by Facebook and you're sitting in there - -1197 -00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:17,240 -and you use your computer science degree to optimize the click-through rate of like, - -1198 -00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,880 -you know, like depression pose for 40 year olds, - -1199 -00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:21,960 -like you were possessed by the spirit of Facebook. - -1200 -00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:22,840 -And that's not a good thing. - -1201 -00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:25,080 -And yeah, well, anyway. - -1202 -00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:28,040 -So DVM's are going to fix them. - -1203 -00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,760 -Not that I'm making a freedom technology, I'm going to fix that. - -1204 -00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,720 -But it is actually like another book recommendation since you mentioned Harry Potter. - -1205 -00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,560 -Most people don't know about the book, but it is a great Bitcoin book. - -1206 -00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,320 -It's Momo by Michel Enne. - -1207 -00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,320 -It's a German book, a German author. - -1208 -00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:48,360 -But it was translated. - -1209 -00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:54,040 -And it's basically, there are similar entities like the Harry Potter spirits that you mentioned - -1210 -00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:59,160 -that suck that's the mentors that suck stuff out of you and so on. - -1211 -00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:06,760 -And for this book, for Momo, it's the gray man, like they look like gray man in suits, - -1212 -00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:07,880 -and they're time thieves. - -1213 -00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,000 -So for me, conceptually, it's inflation. - -1214 -00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,920 -It's basically the bankers that are inflating the currency and they are stealing your time. - -1215 -00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,760 -That's what the book basically, those are the villains of the book. - -1216 -00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:25,320 -And if you read the book through a Bitcoin lens, it's fantastic, it's like it. - -1217 -00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:26,520 -Everything makes perfect sense. - -1218 -00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:28,680 -Yeah, so a great book. - -1219 -00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:38,200 -I, something that you say, like we was more kind of conscious some time ago that we are now. - -1220 -00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:41,800 -Sapping is a more conscious action than like watching the TikTok scene. - -1221 -00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:42,120 -Yeah, yeah. - -1222 -00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:46,680 -No, but you're talking about the technology and the penetration of it in our lives. - -1223 -00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:53,320 -Yeah, I remember when I was a kid, an internet arrived to my home, - -1224 -00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:59,640 -and my parents was so worried, because I should not upload nothing. - -1225 -00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,440 -Did the internet still make sounds or you're quite a bit, - -1226 -00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:06,680 -I think you're quite a bit younger than me, but it was still like you could listen to the internet. - -1227 -00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:10,680 -Yeah, I could listen to the internet through the phone. - -1228 -00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:11,160 -Fantastic. - -1229 -00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:16,680 -But my parents were so worried, because you know, you should be careful to - -1230 -00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:20,760 -not upload nothing, any personal information, photographs. - -1231 -00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:26,760 -And now it's like a son normalize that everyone is putting photos of their assets. - -1232 -00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,080 -They were ahead of the curve. - -1233 -00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:32,760 -Is that why you are privacy conscious because of your parents? - -1234 -00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:39,320 -They normally, I don't know, they are probably, but now they are normalizing it. - -1235 -00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:40,200 -Oh, yeah, sure. - -1236 -00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:41,640 -You know, it's as everyone. - -1237 -00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:42,680 -It's completely normalized. - -1238 -00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:43,800 -You're a weird one. - -1239 -00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:45,560 -I'm always the weird one when I say like, - -1240 -00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,760 -you know, please don't take pictures of my face, for example. - -1241 -00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,640 -It was a lot of work to not have my face on the internet. - -1242 -00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,400 -So don't ruin it in an instant, please. - -1243 -00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:04,040 -Yeah, I mean, that is a fucking big discussion that we're going to have to do also. - -1244 -01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,480 -Yeah, all the privacy implications of this new technology. - -1245 -01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,000 -I don't think we're going to make it in that sense. - -1246 -01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:12,200 -I think it's just going to be normal. - -1247 -01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:16,360 -And now with the generative models, for example, it's just like, I mean, - -1248 -01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:22,440 -revenge porn has a new dimension now with a generative porn. - -1249 -01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,920 -But it's not all bad, because you have plausible deniability now, - -1250 -01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,440 -where you can say there's actually a real photo. - -1251 -01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,800 -It was like, no, no, it's clearly, clearly generated. - -1252 -01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:34,680 -It wasn't me. - -1253 -01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:35,240 -It wasn't me. - -1254 -01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:36,920 -I would never do anything with a donkey. - -1255 -01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:39,160 -I didn't grow that coat. - -1256 -01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:39,880 -What's an LMM? - -1257 -01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:41,320 -Exactly. - -1258 -01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:42,920 -Exactly. - -1259 -01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:44,760 -That's a great excuse for every single body. - -1260 -01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:45,080 -Yeah. - -1261 -01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:46,760 -It's like, oh, that was vive-coded. - -1262 -01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:48,200 -That was vive-coded. - -1263 -01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:49,080 -I promise. - -1264 -01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,040 -I wasn't even conscious about what's Dell M was right in there. - -1265 -01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:54,520 -Just put Dell M in Dell. - -1266 -01:00:57,800 --> 01:00:58,840 -Yeah, we'll see how it goes. - -1267 -01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:05,160 -I mean, I'm always optimistic that in the grand scheme of things, humanity will figure it out. - -1268 -01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:09,960 -Like, we will figure it out how to deal with all these things. - -1269 -01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:11,960 -But it is already very confusing. - -1270 -01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,360 -And it's going to get more confusing going forward. - -1271 -01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:17,640 -I mean, I still have some normal friends and like, my family as well. - -1272 -01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:21,000 -Quite like, my mom is very normal, for example. - -1273 -01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:23,400 -It's like, she sends me, - -1274 -01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,840 -they're always the same fake stuff all the time. - -1275 -01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,000 -Not realizing it's all fake, basically. - -1276 -01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,640 -And it's just like, oh, man, bless your soul. - -1277 -01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:35,640 -It's crazy, it's crazy. - -1278 -01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:37,320 -So this is what just gets worse and worse. - -1279 -01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:38,840 -Yeah, it's going to get to go to... - -1280 -01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:42,680 -And I think that, as I say, like, we're going to have to answer a lot of questions. - -1281 -01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:43,480 -Oh, yeah, absolutely. - -1282 -01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,520 -Because it's going to be a nightmare, you know? - -1283 -01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,240 -Like, all these new wearables. - -1284 -01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:52,920 -Like, Android DX is releasing. - -1285 -01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:55,400 -It's a partnership between Google and Samsung. - -1286 -01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:59,320 -They're releasing the new Android for a mental reality. - -1287 -01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,080 -And everyone is going to be wearing one of these glasses. - -1288 -01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,000 -And you're not going to be able to say nothing to them. - -1289 -01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,160 -Like, they are going to use be recording every time. - -1290 -01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:08,040 -Let's see, let's see. - -1291 -01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:09,160 -I'm not sure. - -1292 -01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:11,960 -Like, the last time this was tried with Google Glass. - -1293 -01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:14,520 -And everyone caught them, the glass holes. - -1294 -01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:15,800 -And everyone hated it. - -1295 -01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:17,880 -And so it didn't really pan out the last time. - -1296 -01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,840 -But now, you know, like, now it looks like the regular sunglasses. - -1297 -01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,800 -So probably there is no turning back. - -1298 -01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,120 -But yeah, we'll see. - -1299 -01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:29,880 -I think one thing that you mentioned in terms of philosophical questions, - -1300 -01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:35,000 -kind of what is real, I think that's one of the most interesting ones, - -1301 -01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:36,120 -because it's so hard to answer. - -1302 -01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,840 -And but also people really crave realness. - -1303 -01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:48,200 -And I think in the monetary sense, Bitcoin is the most real money period. - -1304 -01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,080 -There is so like, it's even more real and gold in some sense. - -1305 -01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:55,880 -And, you know, everyone that hasn't understood Bitcoin deeply will completely frown at - -1306 -01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,880 -the statement and like, you know, like basically, oh, what are the crazy people talking about? - -1307 -01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:00,920 -But it is actually true. - -1308 -01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:01,720 -Like, it's the most - -1309 -01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,120 -realness is like, what is very viable in some sense? - -1310 -01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:08,840 -And it is way more very viable than gold. - -1311 -01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:10,200 -Because you don't know how much gold there is. - -1312 -01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,120 -And like, you have to start mining all the other things. - -1313 -01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:17,320 -Maybe we, you know, drill down the earth so much more and we'll just like quadruple our - -1314 -01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:18,920 -gold supply in an instant, what have you. - -1315 -01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,080 -You can't do all that with Bitcoin. - -1316 -01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,880 -And Bitcoin also, it bottoms out in physical reality. - -1317 -01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:25,320 -That's what's so interesting about it. - -1318 -01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:32,120 -It's actually, you can literally know like what had to happen for this Bitcoin to exist and so on. - -1319 -01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:34,600 -And so it's all traceable and verifiable and so on. - -1320 -01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:35,960 -That's what makes Bitcoin so special. - -1321 -01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:39,800 -So in the monetary sense, Bitcoin is the realest money we ever had. - -1322 -01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:44,120 -And people really care about reality and people really also care about money. - -1323 -01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:51,480 -And the other side of reality is like, like, what is authentic, you know? - -1324 -01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:53,320 -Like the opposite of fake, basically. - -1325 -01:03:54,280 --> 01:04:01,240 -But not necessarily in the verifiability sense, but in the saying what you truly mean, - -1326 -01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:03,640 -sense, in some sense, you know, like a big question. - -1327 -01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:08,360 -Yeah, no, but it's because there's all these aspects, realness and what is real. - -1328 -01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:10,440 -Again, people really care about realness. - -1329 -01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:11,880 -They really, really do. - -1330 -01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:21,320 -And if you are in a kind of many, many environment, like if you're on a platform - -1331 -01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:24,440 -and you're at the edge of being the platform, always, - -1332 -01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:27,160 -you don't even have a way to express yourself fully. - -1333 -01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:28,120 -You just don't. - -1334 -01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:31,880 -So you're just going to lie for the reason of not being the platform. - -1335 -01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:33,720 -Or lie is a strong word. - -1336 -01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:34,840 -But also that. - -1337 -01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:37,320 -I mean, the COVID times show this clearly. - -1338 -01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:40,200 -You're not going to say what you think. - -1339 -01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:42,200 -You're not going to say what you think. - -1340 -01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:43,800 -That's it, that's what I'm going to say. - -1341 -01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,240 -And so once we are in a situation where people are not saying what they think, - -1342 -01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,520 -how can we have any chance of finding out what's real and what's true? - -1343 -01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:55,800 -And so that's why I care so much about Noster, the free expression side. - -1344 -01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:57,800 -Because I do really care about reality. - -1345 -01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,560 -And I also, even more than that in some sense, - -1346 -01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:07,400 -I care about our pathway and our tools of finding out what really is actually. - -1347 -01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:12,840 -What is the best approach to get a grip and a handle on reality? - -1348 -01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:16,760 -And so looping it back to closed platforms, closed systems, - -1349 -01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:22,360 -and closed LLMs, and all those kind of things, we won't be able to figure out - -1350 -01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:25,160 -what's real in a closed paradigm. - -1351 -01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:25,800 -We just won't. - -1352 -01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:28,200 -Because of all the things I just mentioned. - -1353 -01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,600 -You'll have to lie, you'll have to, you'll have all these chilling effects, - -1354 -01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:35,320 -all those kind of things. - -1355 -01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:36,680 -You're going to be constrained, you're going to be afraid. - -1356 -01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:38,040 -Exactly, you have all these constraints. - -1357 -01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:38,680 -Yeah, yeah. - -1358 -01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:40,280 -Comvisionate, yeah, yeah. - -1359 -01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,920 -And also long term, like the other thing is also, if you - -1360 -01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:51,560 -basically, if you need to box it in, the energy required to do the policing, - -1361 -01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:53,320 -the range energy from the system. - -1362 -01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:54,440 -So long term, it's not even stable. - -1363 -01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:58,760 -That's why all authoritarian regimes basically fail, give them a long enough time frame. - -1364 -01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:01,880 -But anyway, thanks for coming to my second talk. - -1365 -01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:03,400 -That was a very strong coffee, man. - -1366 -01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:07,240 -For some many facts, it was a good cycle idea. - -1367 -01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:08,840 -Yeah. - -1368 -01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:12,520 -So what's your plans the next couple of weeks and months for DBMCP? - -1369 -01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:17,640 -So I'm going to keep exploring the spec. - -1370 -01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:26,040 -I was having, as we are here in Madrid and some, I was just kissing with Hazard. - -1371 -01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:27,400 -Thanks for geo-doxing me. - -1372 -01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:28,440 -No, no, it's okay. - -1373 -01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:29,400 -Everyone knows, everyone knows. - -1374 -01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,480 -I think that you mentioned this a couple of times. - -1375 -01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:32,040 -Everyone knows. - -1376 -01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:40,040 -But yeah, I think I'm going to keep exploring the specification, - -1377 -01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:49,240 -and so on, because DBN spec is something with the design that works to be received. - -1378 -01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:52,040 -Yeah, it wasn't really designed with all the alarms in mind, right? - -1379 -01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:55,240 -Or with this stuff in mind. - -1380 -01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,480 -What would you revise? - -1381 -01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,240 -Ah, so because the spec is very generic, right? - -1382 -01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:07,480 -Yeah, yeah, not just that, it's like very bloated. - -1383 -01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:12,200 -Because every, like, the current state of DBMs on the spec - -1384 -01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:17,800 -says that you have a job request per kind. - -1385 -01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:20,440 -So just segregate the job request per kind. - -1386 -01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,520 -So you have a kind for text summarization. - -1387 -01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:23,560 -Yeah, yeah, I see. - -1388 -01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:25,000 -You have a kind for imagination. - -1389 -01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,480 -All your transcripts, what have you, and all those kinds of things. - -1390 -01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:31,640 -And all of them have a very different schemas for the inputs, - -1391 -01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:33,320 -and the output that you spread from that. - -1392 -01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,000 -So it really makes the spec really bloated. - -1393 -01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:41,400 -So if you want to support everything, you're going to have a great time - -1394 -01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:44,200 -trying to implement all of that. - -1395 -01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,560 -And I think that there is a limitation. - -1396 -01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:53,400 -So how would you revise it? - -1397 -01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:55,720 -Don't listen to the semantic web people. - -1398 -01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:56,440 -That's my own input. - -1399 -01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:00,600 -I was having a great discussion with Hasa about this, - -1400 -01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:05,000 -and I think that he wrote this article yesterday, I think. - -1401 -01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:09,080 -About how DBMs are broken, basically. - -1402 -01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:12,200 -This came from some discussions that we have. - -1403 -01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:20,200 -But yeah, payments for DBMs are also a big topic because - -1404 -01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,560 -now you have a lot of different possibilities to make payments - -1405 -01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:27,720 -like with the Nossa where I connect. - -1406 -01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:32,680 -It's not clear how you should pay a DBM. - -1407 -01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:37,480 -Some of the spec that you set up, the job request, - -1408 -01:08:37,480 --> 01:08:41,960 -or some event in the middle of the process of interacting with the DBM, - -1409 -01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:48,360 -other spec to use a Nossa, and it's not really clear. - -1410 -01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:51,080 -And the specification that tried to clarify that, - -1411 -01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:54,280 -I was talking also a lot with Don't Believe the hype. - -1412 -01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:59,880 -And he's the most active guy working on the DBMs. - -1413 -01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:00,760 -He's the DBM guy. - -1414 -01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:07,560 -Also dashing and very good people, but he was trying to clarify this, - -1415 -01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:16,200 -and he wrote an extension for the NIP to clarify the new parameters that DBMs have, - -1416 -01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:17,320 -or he's working with them. - -1417 -01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:22,040 -I never got much, so it's pretty unclear how you should proceed - -1418 -01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:24,280 -if you want to create and work with DBMs. - -1419 -01:09:25,480 --> 01:09:28,760 -So I think that works to revisit all of this. - -1420 -01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:38,600 -Also, I think that we should use more the ephemeral kinds for DBMs, - -1421 -01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:44,440 -because right now a sign running DBNCP doesn't have to stick around forever. - -1422 -01:09:44,440 --> 01:09:44,920 -Exactly. - -1423 -01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,040 -I'm running for DBNCP and running the website, - -1424 -01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:53,080 -and I'm also running a relay for the backend, let's say. - -1425 -01:09:55,480 --> 01:09:57,560 -I don't care in the majority of events. - -1426 -01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:01,160 -Once they accomplish their mission. - -1427 -01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:05,640 -I mean, most of the things are very simple kind of job requests, - -1428 -01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:09,160 -and what's the job is done, you don't care about the input event anymore, - -1429 -01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:10,280 -or what have you, those kind of things. - -1430 -01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:18,120 -Also, something that I really like of exploring with my implementation of DBNCP - -1431 -01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:23,560 -is that I induce using a single kind for everything. - -1432 -01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:26,120 -Instead of, because it makes sense. - -1433 -01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:32,040 -I mean, because it's all the natural language prompts anyway, right, in some sense. - -1434 -01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:35,560 -Yeah, no, it's because DB, sorry, MCP, - -1435 -01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:39,720 -have the protocol is specified. - -1436 -01:10:40,440 --> 01:10:41,320 -Do you have a method? - -1437 -01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:41,720 -Yeah, okay. - -1438 -01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:44,040 -Everything is an MCP tool, so it's all the same kind. - -1439 -01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:44,760 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -1440 -01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:48,120 -And they are using a pattern that is carried reflection. - -1441 -01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,200 -So they have this method that is called list tools. - -1442 -01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:53,800 -Watch out, we're getting rolled over. - -1443 -01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:58,040 -So they have this method that is carried... - -1444 -01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:00,280 -You would think you're safe in the park, but no? - -1445 -01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:02,680 -No, no, no, it's like, it's basically... - -1446 -01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:05,480 -You can't get hit by a track in any moment. - -1447 -01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:13,000 -But yeah, I mean, MCP have this reflection pattern, - -1448 -01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:16,200 -which means that you have a method that is carried list tools, - -1449 -01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:20,520 -and when you do list tools, you are going to get all the schema - -1450 -01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:24,600 -that you need to build your request. - -1451 -01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:29,320 -So you don't need a previously schema, - -1452 -01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,600 -or previously shared schema or something like that. - -1453 -01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:37,240 -You have a reflection, which means that the schema is part of the response. - -1454 -01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:37,720 -Exactly. - -1455 -01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:39,000 -Like you get... - -1456 -01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:40,840 -So you don't need to redefine the schema. - -1457 -01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:41,400 -Exactly. - -1458 -01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:45,800 -You get the schema of the inputs, and the output is also standardized. - -1459 -01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:49,800 -So you get what you need to make the request, - -1460 -01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:51,960 -and to understand what you expect from it. - -1461 -01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:56,200 -So that makes that every tool can fit in the same can, - -1462 -01:11:56,200 --> 01:12:01,240 -because beforehand you can understand how to input the data, - -1463 -01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:02,680 -or how to build the request. - -1464 -01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:04,040 -Yeah, I see, I see. - -1465 -01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:05,640 -Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. - -1466 -01:12:09,480 --> 01:12:13,400 -Both things are very new, but TVMs predate MCP tools. - -1467 -01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:18,680 -And so we didn't know of a way to have like a general purpose. - -1468 -01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:25,080 -DVM that does all the things using LLMs, basically using MCP. - -1469 -01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:28,360 -So now we have that that makes a lot of sense. - -1470 -01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:33,320 -Yeah, but I also think that there are a space for predifying kin. - -1471 -01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:34,200 -Oh, absolutely. - -1472 -01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:35,320 -I mean, not all... - -1473 -01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:38,360 -Absolutely, because you... - -1474 -01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,360 -I mean, if you want to add a watermark to an image or whatever, - -1475 -01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:44,040 -you're not going to use an LLM. - -1476 -01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:45,880 -You're going to use image magic. - -1477 -01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:46,440 -Yeah. - -1478 -01:12:46,440 --> 01:12:51,320 -Or like for some trends, you know, like transcoding or whatever, - -1479 -01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:53,320 -like converting one file type to another one, - -1480 -01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:55,080 -you're going to use FFmpeg or what have you. - -1481 -01:12:55,080 --> 01:12:56,760 -Yeah, those kind of things. - -1482 -01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,560 -It's, I mean, again, like with MCP tools, - -1483 -01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:03,560 -it's still, there's this layer in between where you have the natural language, - -1484 -01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:06,840 -adapter, so to speak, for these tools. - -1485 -01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:08,280 -But it's not always needed. - -1486 -01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:11,480 -Like, I mean, I think a lot of DVM, - -1487 -01:13:11,480 --> 01:13:15,400 -I mean, the main idea of DVM supposed to actually be like a vending machine. - -1488 -01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:17,400 -Like if it's something that's very, very stupid. - -1489 -01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:19,720 -Take a coin, give me something. - -1490 -01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:26,440 -And I think we, you know, regular super-stupid vending machines - -1491 -01:13:26,440 --> 01:13:28,440 -are still extremely useful. - -1492 -01:13:28,440 --> 01:13:28,840 -Yeah. - -1493 -01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:31,000 -And yeah, I think we'll just have a pause. - -1494 -01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:31,880 -Yeah, definitely. - -1495 -01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:35,640 -But something to reflect about this is that, you know, - -1496 -01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:41,160 -it's virtually impossible that you can come up with an integer for every job request, - -1497 -01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:45,880 -because the job request can be so customized and so personalized. - -1498 -01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:49,800 -Like how the fact you define, I don't know, - -1499 -01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:52,440 -a kind for a specific job that I have. - -1500 -01:13:52,440 --> 01:13:57,400 -I mean, we had this problem already with ports, you know, like with the port system, - -1501 -01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:00,040 -where you have some numbers that are reserved. - -1502 -01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:01,400 -But if you build a new application, - -1503 -01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:04,040 -you need to come up with a new port number if it's network. - -1504 -01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:04,520 -Yeah. - -1505 -01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:07,960 -And then you're just like, you know, there is many integers, - -1506 -01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:10,120 -but that doesn't make it less messy. - -1507 -01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:13,160 -It's like they are, they are infinite integers. - -1508 -01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:17,320 -But they are also an infinite amount of possibilities. - -1509 -01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:19,240 -So there is more infinite real numbers. - -1510 -01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:20,040 -Did you know that? - -1511 -01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:20,360 -Oh, yeah. - -1512 -01:14:21,480 --> 01:14:22,840 -Because they can't be negative. - -1513 -01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:26,360 -Fucking set theory. - -1514 -01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:28,920 -Great. - -1515 -01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:30,440 -Oh, mathematicians are so smart. - -1516 -01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:32,680 -Oh, there's like 10 different kinds of infinity. - -1517 -01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:34,680 -The one infinity is bigger than the other infinity. - -1518 -01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:38,200 -Oh, well, anyway, it's a ball. - -1519 -01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:41,400 -Yeah, no, I think cleaning that up would make a lot of sense. - -1520 -01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:44,840 -And then I think it's just about building the tools - -1521 -01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:49,560 -and make it really easy for other people to create the MCP tools, for example, - -1522 -01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:53,160 -or also making it really easy to create custom DBMs. - -1523 -01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:53,400 -Yeah. - -1524 -01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:57,880 -No, I'm really glad also for the work that I'm doing in the MCP, - -1525 -01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:05,400 -because I think that is the most, the easiest way to create a DBM out of a MCP tool, - -1526 -01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:07,000 -that MCP is its own protocol. - -1527 -01:15:07,480 --> 01:15:10,920 -So if you have a MCP server, you have a VBM. - -1528 -01:15:11,480 --> 01:15:12,520 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -1529 -01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:14,360 -And you don't need to write any line of code. - -1530 -01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:15,720 -Yeah, yeah, basically. - -1531 -01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:16,280 -Yeah. - -1532 -01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:19,480 -And that makes the library that I'm writing, writing, - -1533 -01:15:19,480 --> 01:15:21,720 -and the packages that I'm writing, so lightweight. - -1534 -01:15:22,440 --> 01:15:27,800 -And so like a focus on the specific task of the communication, - -1535 -01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:33,000 -and the city handling, handling different stuff in the DBM thing. - -1536 -01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:36,440 -And I don't have to bloat my packages, - -1537 -01:15:36,440 --> 01:15:38,280 -because I have to support this on the other thing. - -1538 -01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:38,600 -Yeah. - -1539 -01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:43,480 -I just support the DBMCP concept is that you have a client, - -1540 -01:15:43,480 --> 01:15:46,440 -an MCP client that connects to the MCP server. - -1541 -01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:50,920 -And you kind of grab that into a DBM, - -1542 -01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:53,080 -which means that you are going to be listening to a relay - -1543 -01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:57,800 -and reacting to some events that can come from that relay. - -1544 -01:15:57,800 --> 01:15:59,640 -And you also can publish things on the relay. - -1545 -01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:02,920 -So it's like a DBM wrapper for a DBMCP. - -1546 -01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:07,320 -That make it so specific, you know, - -1547 -01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:10,840 -so that I don't have to support any or the kinds of - -1548 -01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:13,560 -every use case or one note. - -1549 -01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:14,840 -Like at the MCP server, - -1550 -01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:18,280 -have its own computation and do its own thing. - -1551 -01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:23,640 -And the package that I'm building just do the rest. - -1552 -01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:27,560 -That is the networking part or the handling part of the, - -1553 -01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:28,440 -with no set. - -1554 -01:16:28,440 --> 01:16:29,080 -Yeah. - -1555 -01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:30,120 -No, awesome, awesome. - -1556 -01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:32,600 -I think the most powerful thing, - -1557 -01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:34,600 -what I saw in the last couple of weeks is, - -1558 -01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:37,000 -again, I think it has to be really easy for someone to - -1559 -01:16:38,440 --> 01:16:41,000 -publish their things to no stir. - -1560 -01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:43,640 -So it can appear in the marketplaces - -1561 -01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:45,480 -and the things we talked about. - -1562 -01:16:45,480 --> 01:16:47,160 -And what makes it so powerful is that - -1563 -01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:50,200 -like people can just pick it up and use it immediately - -1564 -01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:51,000 -if they want to. - -1565 -01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:51,160 -Yeah. - -1566 -01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:52,920 -And we saw this in some of the demos, - -1567 -01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:54,680 -where just, you know, - -1568 -01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:56,360 -some of the, again, coming back to some of the things - -1569 -01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:58,200 -that Pablo has been working on where, - -1570 -01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:01,800 -you know, to try to vibe code and app, basically. - -1571 -01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:03,880 -And it fails because the agent is confused. - -1572 -01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:09,640 -And someone else publishes a code snippet or a specific MCP tool. - -1573 -01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:11,960 -And without doing anything, - -1574 -01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:14,600 -the agent kind of tries again and it fixes itself. - -1575 -01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:18,360 -Because now it has the more power, - -1576 -01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:19,080 -the more knowledge. - -1577 -01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:20,360 -Nice. - -1578 -01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:22,200 -I think that is so cool. - -1579 -01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:24,040 -I think it's so powerful because also - -1580 -01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:28,920 -kind of allow everyone to expose their computational resources - -1581 -01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:31,080 -or assets like you have, - -1582 -01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:33,880 -we can, as we were talking before, - -1583 -01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:36,920 -we can take the IP address that you have as an asset, you know. - -1584 -01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:37,400 -Yeah. - -1585 -01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:37,880 -Yeah. - -1586 -01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:38,360 -Yeah. - -1587 -01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:41,720 -You are a person that uses BPN, BPS. - -1588 -01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:42,680 -Yeah, BPN, in fact. - -1589 -01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:47,160 -You don't, you cannot watch YouTube anymore - -1590 -01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:49,000 -in a good way. - -1591 -01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:53,800 -But maybe I'm a person that I have a IP address - -1592 -01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:55,480 -from ISP. - -1593 -01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:57,400 -And I don't care about BPN, - -1594 -01:17:57,400 --> 01:17:58,840 -so I can connect to YouTube, - -1595 -01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:00,200 -it's a one-out-rate limit. - -1596 -01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:03,640 -So I can create a DBNCP or a NCP tool - -1597 -01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:05,160 -that dole lots things from YouTube - -1598 -01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:06,840 -and put it on blossom, for example. - -1599 -01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:10,520 -And I can do that with any restriction - -1600 -01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:12,440 -and sell that as a kind of assets. - -1601 -01:18:12,440 --> 01:18:12,920 -Yeah. - -1602 -01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:15,240 -We saw with one of the experiments that - -1603 -01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:18,840 -B actually built it from Ziggyt, - -1604 -01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:21,320 -where you can do it for - -1605 -01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:24,120 -like any kind of HTTP request, - -1606 -01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:25,320 -which was super interesting. - -1607 -01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:25,560 -Yeah. - -1608 -01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:26,760 -Where it's just, you know, - -1609 -01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:29,560 -like I'm willing to execute - -1610 -01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:32,520 -the your HTTP request for you - -1611 -01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:33,880 -using my IP, basically. - -1612 -01:18:34,440 --> 01:18:38,120 -And I'll give you back the result and so on. - -1613 -01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:40,120 -And I mean, I think we'll see all of that. - -1614 -01:18:40,120 --> 01:18:42,760 -If this type of experimentation continues, - -1615 -01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:46,120 -we saw also the atomic swaps, for example, - -1616 -01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:47,640 -with the snorvers, the answers and so on. - -1617 -01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:48,200 -That's great. - -1618 -01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:49,000 -Yeah, great name. - -1619 -01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:50,440 -Ask. - -1620 -01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:53,000 -Ask protocols. - -1621 -01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:58,760 -And you could use that to, again, - -1622 -01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:01,160 -like execute all of that atomically. - -1623 -01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:01,400 -Yeah. - -1624 -01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:05,080 -It's basically, at the same time, - -1625 -01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:08,040 -you get back the result and receive the payment. - -1626 -01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:08,600 -Yeah. - -1627 -01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:10,920 -And like I only pay you if I actually - -1628 -01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:14,680 -can make sure that I get the correct result - -1629 -01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:15,800 -and those kinds of things. - -1630 -01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:18,440 -So yeah, I mean, it opens up a whole new area - -1631 -01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:19,480 -of possibilities. - -1632 -01:19:19,480 --> 01:19:19,800 -Yeah. - -1633 -01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:21,400 -It's very, it's quite simple. - -1634 -01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:23,240 -Building blocks, basically, in some sense. - -1635 -01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:24,360 -That's a beautiful part, yeah. - -1636 -01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:26,680 -I mean, well, that's simple. - -1637 -01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:28,360 -It's at least it's very, it's, - -1638 -01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:29,720 -I think it's very understandable. - -1639 -01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:29,880 -Yeah. - -1640 -01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:31,080 -It's like once you, once you grab. - -1641 -01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:31,800 -A broad table. - -1642 -01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:32,120 -Yeah. - -1643 -01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:35,000 -There's no hidden source in, like, - -1644 -01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:36,200 -snoring signatures or whatever. - -1645 -01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:38,920 -Like you can actually look at it and understand it and so on. - -1646 -01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:40,280 -And again, like coming back to the - -1647 -01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:42,760 -permissionless nature of it all. - -1648 -01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:45,640 -You can just use it and run with it and - -1649 -01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:46,600 -build stuff on top of it. - -1650 -01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:48,200 -So I know it's bound to happen. - -1651 -01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:51,080 -And I think that these are the building blocks - -1652 -01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:55,720 -that really make us closer to this level of collaboration - -1653 -01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:57,240 -that really make us free. - -1654 -01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:00,760 -Because if we can collaborate at these levels. - -1655 -01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:01,400 -Yeah. - -1656 -01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:03,720 -More market-based, less silo-based. - -1657 -01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:05,240 -There is nothing that can stop us. - -1658 -01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:07,640 -I can, nothing can stop me to, - -1659 -01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:12,200 -to sell my IP for, to someone if it needs. - -1660 -01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:15,720 -And I can also benefit from that. - -1661 -01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:18,440 -Very simple things like, again, - -1662 -01:20:18,440 --> 01:20:21,240 -selling your idle CPU or GPU power. - -1663 -01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:21,560 -Yeah. - -1664 -01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:23,800 -If someone wants to, you know, train models - -1665 -01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:25,240 -to do whatever and those kind of things. - -1666 -01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:25,400 -Yeah. - -1667 -01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:27,400 -Like, I mean, those are all very old ideas. - -1668 -01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:29,160 -Like, city at home, those kind of things. - -1669 -01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:31,080 -They don't have that protein folding, - -1670 -01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:32,920 -like, had a big boost with that and so on. - -1671 -01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:33,480 -Yeah. - -1672 -01:20:33,480 --> 01:20:35,240 -But it's all, it's all like, - -1673 -01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:38,200 -you actually as an, it's not really a marketplace. - -1674 -01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:40,520 -It's like very, very big companies, - -1675 -01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:45,000 -very big institutions doing that and trying to get everyone aboard. - -1676 -01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:47,880 -But I think once you flip it to a marketplace kind of scenario, - -1677 -01:20:49,080 --> 01:20:51,800 -the very interesting things are going to happen. - -1678 -01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:53,720 -I think we'll have a lot of innovation, - -1679 -01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:55,000 -a lot of good stuff come from that again. - -1680 -01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:57,640 -Like, coming back to the previous example of like, - -1681 -01:20:57,640 --> 01:20:58,840 -browser extensions and so on. - -1682 -01:20:58,840 --> 01:21:00,040 -It's like, basically, yeah. - -1683 -01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:01,560 -All my, the browsers that I use, - -1684 -01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:04,200 -they're just, they're kind of like a compilation - -1685 -01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:05,320 -of extensions in some sense. - -1686 -01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:08,680 -It's like, if I can't install my like, - -1687 -01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,360 -six, seven favorite extensions, - -1688 -01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:13,640 -I don't even want to use the browser because it's useless to me. - -1689 -01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:15,400 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -1690 -01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:18,040 -I mean, I'm, I'm at least going to need an ostracina, you know, - -1691 -01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:19,320 -in my browser. - -1692 -01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:21,800 -If I can't install that, I can't use the browser for anything. - -1693 -01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:22,360 -Yeah. - -1694 -01:21:22,360 --> 01:21:22,920 -Yeah. - -1695 -01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:24,040 -That's the thing that it's worth. - -1696 -01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:28,200 -And I think that this is because we now kind of have the right building blocks, - -1697 -01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:28,840 -as you were saying. - -1698 -01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:32,440 -And these ideas are not new, as you were saying. - -1699 -01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:35,080 -But the building blocks that we have now, - -1700 -01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:36,440 -yes, they are new. - -1701 -01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:38,920 -And they have a lot of potential. - -1702 -01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:39,720 -Definitely. - -1703 -01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:41,800 -And we have existing infrastructure to plug in. - -1704 -01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:42,680 -Yeah, we have Bitcoin. - -1705 -01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:43,240 -We have no start. - -1706 -01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:44,200 -We have those things. - -1707 -01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:44,680 -Exactly. - -1708 -01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:47,000 -And you can just, should we cross over to the other park? - -1709 -01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:47,480 -Let's go. - -1710 -01:21:47,480 --> 01:21:52,920 -Do one more, one more circle and, and, and with maybe not another coffee, - -1711 -01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:54,680 -or there will be a third cutout, - -1712 -01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:56,680 -but then a nice orange juice or something. - -1713 -01:21:56,680 --> 01:21:57,800 -Yeah, I don't just, it's nice. - -1714 -01:21:58,760 --> 01:21:59,320 -Ah, wow. - -1715 -01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:01,240 -This bag is very beautiful to you. - -1716 -01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:03,960 -Oh, yeah, I just, no, it's all very pretty. - -1717 -01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:06,840 -And now, now it's officially spring, I think, more or less. - -1718 -01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:07,880 -This weather is beautiful. - -1719 -01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:08,600 -Yeah, it's great. - -1720 -01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:10,680 -We're not like shit weather in comparison. - -1721 -01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:11,720 -It's comfortable. - -1722 -01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:14,840 -You stop the angles when the weather gets better. - -1723 -01:22:16,120 --> 01:22:17,240 -It was because of all the nerds. - -1724 -01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:19,880 -The nerds brought the bad weather. - -1725 -01:22:22,120 --> 01:22:24,200 -What do you think of the last six weeks? - -1726 -01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:25,560 -What did you get out of it? - -1727 -01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:26,520 -I enjoyed so much. - -1728 -01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:28,760 -I mean, you're a veteran already. - -1729 -01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:33,400 -For me, it was very, it was the most enjoyable cohort, - -1730 -01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:34,760 -I think, this time around, because, - -1731 -01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:37,480 -no, but I did the least. - -1732 -01:22:37,480 --> 01:22:38,040 -Yeah. - -1733 -01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:38,680 -Yeah. - -1734 -01:22:40,360 --> 01:22:41,800 -I did nothing but vibe code. - -1735 -01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:42,360 -That's great. - -1736 -01:22:43,080 --> 01:22:45,240 -But I think that was super, super intense. - -1737 -01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:48,440 -And part of the intensity was, - -1738 -01:22:48,440 --> 01:22:50,200 -because now we have these new tools - -1739 -01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:54,120 -that makes everything faster and drier and better cheaper. - -1740 -01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:54,440 -Yeah. - -1741 -01:22:54,440 --> 01:22:56,120 -So you can do way more, - -1742 -01:22:56,120 --> 01:22:57,480 -with way less, in some sense. - -1743 -01:22:57,480 --> 01:23:00,520 -Which means that even if the effort that you have to put - -1744 -01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:05,080 -into make the things is less, the mental effort is still - -1745 -01:23:05,080 --> 01:23:07,320 -the same level or more, - -1746 -01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:08,840 -because you have to think faster, - -1747 -01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:11,880 -to resolve the issues faster and so on. - -1748 -01:23:12,440 --> 01:23:14,920 -So that makes everything super intense. - -1749 -01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:15,160 -Yeah. - -1750 -01:23:15,160 --> 01:23:16,840 -You don't have one project anymore. - -1751 -01:23:16,840 --> 01:23:19,080 -You have like 15 vibe code and projects. - -1752 -01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:23,080 -And that is another question to answer. - -1753 -01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:23,160 -Yeah. - -1754 -01:23:23,160 --> 01:23:24,120 -But that's the thing. - -1755 -01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:27,640 -Coming back to your point about the philosophy - -1756 -01:23:27,640 --> 01:23:29,080 -becoming more important. - -1757 -01:23:29,080 --> 01:23:31,800 -And we touched on this in past conversation as well. - -1758 -01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:33,640 -But it's like, if you can't build anything, - -1759 -01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:36,440 -basically, the question of what to build - -1760 -01:23:36,440 --> 01:23:38,360 -and why it becomes way more important. - -1761 -01:23:38,360 --> 01:23:39,000 -Definitely. - -1762 -01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:39,240 -Yeah. - -1763 -01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:40,600 -It's like what you can build. - -1764 -01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:41,000 -Absolutely. - -1765 -01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:43,320 -And let's say this stuff works perfectly - -1766 -01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:46,440 -and you can vibe code anything into existence, - -1767 -01:23:46,440 --> 01:23:48,600 -basically almost in an instant for free. - -1768 -01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:49,320 -What do you do? - -1769 -01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:52,760 -Like, why are you actually building the thing that you? - -1770 -01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:53,800 -That's a question. - -1771 -01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:55,480 -That's the right question, I think. - -1772 -01:23:55,480 --> 01:24:00,520 -Because if, yeah, when you have a magic machine - -1773 -01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:01,560 -that do everything for you, - -1774 -01:24:03,400 --> 01:24:04,680 -now you have to choose what to do. - -1775 -01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:06,440 -I'm going to do a good one. - -1776 -01:24:06,440 --> 01:24:07,240 -Hey, guys. - -1777 -01:24:07,240 --> 01:24:08,840 -And the Austrians, by the way, - -1778 -01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:10,280 -figured this out, the Austrian economists, - -1779 -01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:13,000 -is like, I don't remember the author anymore. - -1780 -01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:14,920 -But time, the ultimate resource, - -1781 -01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:16,360 -because they figured out that like, - -1782 -01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,160 -even if such a thing would exist hypothetically, - -1783 -01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:20,840 -you still have time constraints. - -1784 -01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:21,320 -Yeah. - -1785 -01:24:21,320 --> 01:24:23,480 -You still have to spend your time and attention on the things. - -1786 -01:24:23,480 --> 01:24:25,400 -And so that's basically, you know, - -1787 -01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:27,400 -that was the rebuttal to the Star Trek universe. - -1788 -01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:29,960 -What if we have free energy and replicators? - -1789 -01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:31,800 -Everyone has free energy. - -1790 -01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:33,160 -Everyone has a replicator. - -1791 -01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:35,240 -You still have to answer the question, - -1792 -01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:36,200 -what to replicate. - -1793 -01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:36,360 -Yeah. - -1794 -01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:37,640 -And that's a philosophical question. - -1795 -01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:37,880 -Yeah. - -1796 -01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:39,800 -And it relates to values, - -1797 -01:24:39,800 --> 01:24:40,920 -and what kind of values you have, - -1798 -01:24:40,920 --> 01:24:42,360 -and what you actually care about. - -1799 -01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:42,520 -Yeah. - -1800 -01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:43,960 -And you can't automate that away. - -1801 -01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:46,120 -So that's kind of, that's, yeah. - -1802 -01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:49,880 -That's what we will have to focus on now in some sense. - -1803 -01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:51,560 -I mean, you always have to focus on that, - -1804 -01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:55,160 -but now it's even more pronounced, I feel like. - -1805 -01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:55,640 -Yeah. - -1806 -01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:58,280 -You know, the perfect sentence for this is, - -1807 -01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:01,320 -a great power comes with a great responsibility. - -1808 -01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:01,640 -Yeah. - -1809 -01:25:01,640 --> 01:25:02,600 -Exactly. - -1810 -01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:03,640 -It's quite a man. - -1811 -01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:04,280 -Right. - -1812 -01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:05,080 -The Uncle Ben. - -1813 -01:25:06,040 --> 01:25:07,000 -The legendary one. - -1814 -01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:08,120 -Uncle Ben. - -1815 -01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:11,000 -Yeah, it's still totally true. - -1816 -01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:12,440 -Like, oh, absolutely. - -1817 -01:25:12,440 --> 01:25:14,120 -Like, and now you have these - -1818 -01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:16,920 -so powerful tools that they're crazy, man. - -1819 -01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:19,720 -Like, we were talking about the instant communication, - -1820 -01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:22,360 -that is something that I answered. - -1821 -01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:24,360 -But now we have this technology that is - -1822 -01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:25,960 -fucking crazy, what you can do. - -1823 -01:25:25,960 --> 01:25:28,040 -Instant Russian development team in your pocket. - -1824 -01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:28,440 -Yeah. - -1825 -01:25:28,440 --> 01:25:28,840 -Yeah. - -1826 -01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:29,400 -Yeah. - -1827 -01:25:29,400 --> 01:25:32,200 -That's, it's fucking in the imaginary world. - -1828 -01:25:33,080 --> 01:25:34,600 -But now what? - -1829 -01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:35,160 -Now what? - -1830 -01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:38,360 -Now you have to answer this question of what? - -1831 -01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:40,040 -What are you going to vibe code today? - -1832 -01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:40,520 -Yeah. - -1833 -01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:41,080 -Right. - -1834 -01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:41,560 -Right. - -1835 -01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:42,120 -Right. - -1836 -01:25:42,120 --> 01:25:43,320 -That's right. - -1837 -01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:43,800 -And wing. - -1838 -01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:45,080 -All right. - -1839 -01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:46,360 -Let's maybe stay at this side. - -1840 -01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,840 -There's like a chainsaw on the other side. - -1841 -01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:49,960 -So let's not. - -1842 -01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:51,320 -All right. - -1843 -01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:51,720 -Let's not. - -1844 -01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:52,120 -Let's not. - -1845 -01:25:55,480 --> 01:25:57,320 -Let's maybe stay away from the chainsaw. - -1846 -01:25:58,920 --> 01:25:59,880 -The rest of the whole. - -1847 -01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:02,440 -I was like, oh, let's walk the parks. - -1848 -01:26:02,440 --> 01:26:04,520 -It's going to be nice and quiet and so on. - -1849 -01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:06,440 -The one park you got rolled over by a truck - -1850 -01:26:06,440 --> 01:26:07,960 -gave the second park there's a chainsaw. - -1851 -01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:10,200 -Oh, well. - -1852 -01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:11,000 -City sounds. - -1853 -01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:11,960 -That's how it goes. - -1854 -01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:12,680 -That's how it goes. - -1855 -01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:17,720 -But I think that we touched some interesting points - -1856 -01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:19,400 -and very important points. - -1857 -01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:23,000 -Because we are going to have to answer all of this - -1858 -01:26:24,040 --> 01:26:25,080 -in the next years. - -1859 -01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:25,720 -Oh, absolutely. - -1860 -01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:27,480 -And start to think about that. - -1861 -01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,040 -To make us more prepared for all of that. - -1862 -01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:33,000 -Because it's not something like a weekend avoid. - -1863 -01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:33,960 -We can't avoid it. - -1864 -01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:36,600 -No, you can't run away from this. - -1865 -01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:39,800 -No, it's going to it's going to touch your life in one way or another. - -1866 -01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:44,520 -And you're going to have to put yourself into the light and answer that. - -1867 -01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:46,280 -Even though we like ostriches, - -1868 -01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:52,120 -putting your head into the sand is not going to be the best strategy going forward. - -1869 -01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:55,400 -That can work for 50 years or something like that, but not forever. - -1870 -01:26:56,360 --> 01:27:01,400 -And now we are reaching the point of that is critical, you know. - -1871 -01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:04,360 -And I think that there is, we, - -1872 -01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:07,880 -like right now the penetration of this technology is not - -1873 -01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:12,760 -the total penetration that we are going to see of this technology. - -1874 -01:27:12,760 --> 01:27:17,640 -And like big companies are going to be about the neck. - -1875 -01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:21,480 -And what I mean with this is that when everyone, - -1876 -01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:24,760 -like this technology gets really democratized. - -1877 -01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:28,120 -And every company and every business or as little as they are. - -1878 -01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:32,360 -They are going to need this technology to to operate. - -1879 -01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:38,520 -You know, they're not going to be a node offered, - -1880 -01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:40,920 -enough offer to to supply the demand. - -1881 -01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:45,640 -Because because these big providers are going to be a bottleneck. - -1882 -01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:48,680 -I mean, now everything is like, you know, heavily VC funded. - -1883 -01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:50,120 -Oh yeah, VC subsidized. - -1884 -01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:54,120 -You see this clearly if you like the difference between the difference in cost - -1885 -01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:59,160 -and use the cost between using cursor and using root code is massive. - -1886 -01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:03,080 -So yeah, no, I agree. - -1887 -01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:07,400 -I mean, I think it will also get cheaper with technological progress and so on. - -1888 -01:28:09,480 --> 01:28:13,560 -But I think that the technical part is not just the only bottleneck. - -1889 -01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:14,920 -Oh, absolutely. - -1890 -01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:18,520 -The regulatory parts is also a big bottleneck. - -1891 -01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:22,920 -Like a, what define an Iranian guy that runs to access. - -1892 -01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:25,240 -We saw it already with Google, right? - -1893 -01:28:25,240 --> 01:28:26,680 -Like it's a bottleneck for search. - -1894 -01:28:26,680 --> 01:28:30,840 -Like again, Google defines what the truth is from the point of view of Google. - -1895 -01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:32,040 -What are you allowed to find? - -1896 -01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:33,320 -What are you allowed to search for? - -1897 -01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:34,520 -All those kinds of things. - -1898 -01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:36,600 -And if the political climate gets weird enough, - -1899 -01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:40,120 -then it's just like stuff will just fucking not show up and disappear. - -1900 -01:28:40,120 --> 01:28:41,160 -And all those kinds of things. - -1901 -01:28:41,240 --> 01:28:43,080 -And it was a very simple thing in terms of, - -1902 -01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:46,120 -basically, I mean, Google is not a simple thing anymore. - -1903 -01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:50,360 -But when compared to LLMs, basically like plain text search in some sense. - -1904 -01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:50,760 -Yeah. - -1905 -01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:55,160 -And LLMs, it's like, you know, what are the LLMs allowed to think in some sense? - -1906 -01:28:55,160 --> 01:28:55,320 -Yeah. - -1907 -01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:56,920 -That's going to be the question. - -1908 -01:28:56,920 --> 01:28:57,080 -Yeah. - -1909 -01:28:57,080 --> 01:28:57,800 -So I agree. - -1910 -01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:03,480 -It is like every central four spy definition is a bottleneck. - -1911 -01:29:03,480 --> 01:29:03,960 -Yeah. - -1912 -01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:04,360 -Yeah, yeah. - -1913 -01:29:04,360 --> 01:29:07,160 -Every central thing is a bottleneck by definition. - -1914 -01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:08,120 -So that's true. - -1915 -01:29:08,120 --> 01:29:08,520 -That's true. - -1916 -01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:09,880 -That's true. - -1917 -01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:15,160 -And I learned anything that the role of us, like people that develops over open standards - -1918 -01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:19,160 -and try to understand and realize what is this new technology - -1919 -01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:24,600 -and how that can be applied to our lives and how they can be deployed - -1920 -01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:27,720 -in a way that makes sense, it's so important. - -1921 -01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:29,880 -And it's going to be so important in the future. - -1922 -01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:36,680 -Because when you have the 80% of businesses wanting to use this technology - -1923 -01:29:36,760 --> 01:29:40,200 -to operate and to create their business plans - -1924 -01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:42,920 -or their marketing plans or campaigns or anything, - -1925 -01:29:42,920 --> 01:29:48,680 -or they want to outsource part of the workload into this business thing, - -1926 -01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:54,440 -okay, it's going to be a lot of a big bottleneck because this, you know, - -1927 -01:29:54,440 --> 01:29:58,840 -because not everyone is going to be able to access the infrastructure - -1928 -01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:05,720 -because they are not enough infrastructure or because they're regularly part. - -1929 -01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:08,520 -And the Aurora is going to be crucial. - -1930 -01:30:08,520 --> 01:30:11,960 -They got the role of open source and people that's... - -1931 -01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:15,960 -The open models, open systems, all those things are going to be very important. - -1932 -01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:18,920 -I think that's one thing that the 2027 article got right. - -1933 -01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:23,960 -Like they are predicting an almost like an ideological arms race in some sense, - -1934 -01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:24,520 -I would say. - -1935 -01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:27,720 -I mean, they phrase it as like a technological political one, - -1936 -01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:32,680 -but it's like basically whoever controls the models controls the future kind of scenario. - -1937 -01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:35,000 -And it's like US versus China, you know. - -1938 -01:30:36,120 --> 01:30:40,600 -And it's already clear now that, you know, like US models have... - -1939 -01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:44,120 -I mean, that's a gross over generalization, - -1940 -01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:47,240 -but let's say US models have Western values imbued, - -1941 -01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:51,080 -and Chinese models have the values of the Communist Party. - -1942 -01:30:52,440 --> 01:30:53,240 -Embedded. - -1943 -01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:58,920 -And it's basically if you want to, you know, move the needle in terms of - -1944 -01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:02,360 -the ideological stance of the world, it's like, - -1945 -01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:06,920 -if your model is the default model, then you can really move the needle. - -1946 -01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:07,400 -Oh, yeah. - -1947 -01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:12,040 -And they predicted that this is going to play out over the next couple of years. - -1948 -01:31:12,040 --> 01:31:13,320 -And I do agree with that. - -1949 -01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:16,360 -Like I think this is already happening and this is going to happen. - -1950 -01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:20,680 -To your case, you know, like if you have an idea for a new business or what have you - -1951 -01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:24,440 -and you prompt the LLM to help you set it up and all those kind of things. - -1952 -01:31:24,440 --> 01:31:28,680 -Like if it's the CCP model, then it's going to be a slightly different business - -1953 -01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:30,200 -than if it's another model and so on. - -1954 -01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:32,440 -So I think all of that is already happening. - -1955 -01:31:32,440 --> 01:31:34,600 -So it's just like, I think that, yeah, I don't, - -1956 -01:31:34,600 --> 01:31:36,040 -I'm not sure what to make of all of it. - -1957 -01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:39,400 -You know, I'm very close to just moving to, I don't know, - -1958 -01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:43,160 -to a mountain hut or to a cave or something, just touching grass forever. - -1959 -01:31:44,360 --> 01:31:46,760 -Yeah, not touching a keyboard anymore. - -1960 -01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:51,320 -I mean, that's why I like, I move away from keyboards now and just speak into microphones. - -1961 -01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:55,080 -That's a step forward. - -1962 -01:31:55,080 --> 01:31:55,960 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -1963 -01:31:55,960 --> 01:31:59,160 -It's a one step away from technology. - -1964 -01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:01,640 -But in all seriousness, like what me, - -1965 -01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:06,200 -what was most fascinating to me the last couple of weeks, - -1966 -01:32:06,200 --> 01:32:08,040 -like really exploring all that, - -1967 -01:32:08,040 --> 01:32:10,920 -or yeah, the last two, three months now or so, - -1968 -01:32:10,920 --> 01:32:16,200 -is how, how dialogical everything with LLM is. - -1969 -01:32:16,200 --> 01:32:19,720 -Like you really enter into a dialogue with the technology itself. - -1970 -01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:26,920 -Like you, the natural language interface is just like a constant back and forth - -1971 -01:32:27,480 --> 01:32:29,160 -prompting and reading and correcting. - -1972 -01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:31,560 -And you are actually in the dialogue, - -1973 -01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:36,360 -like if you're, like, it doesn't matter if you're using cursor or a rule or what have you, - -1974 -01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:40,760 -you're in a constant dialogue with your IDE, for example. - -1975 -01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:41,320 -Yeah. - -1976 -01:32:41,320 --> 01:32:44,920 -And that is very strange and it is very new in some sense. - -1977 -01:32:44,920 --> 01:32:47,240 -It is very, very different. - -1978 -01:32:47,240 --> 01:32:51,000 -And that's also what I liked about, you know, - -1979 -01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:52,920 -like kind of us exploring all that together, - -1980 -01:32:52,920 --> 01:32:55,720 -because it was kind of the constant dialogue about all those things - -1981 -01:32:55,720 --> 01:32:57,960 -and all the topics you touched on as well. - -1982 -01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:02,920 -And kind of, I think that's the only thing we have to navigate anything. - -1983 -01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:05,560 -It's like constant dialogue and different constant exploration. - -1984 -01:33:05,560 --> 01:33:06,200 -Yeah. - -1985 -01:33:06,200 --> 01:33:10,280 -And I think that also works to spur the overlap between, you know, - -1986 -01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:13,800 -the natural language that we use right now to communicate. - -1987 -01:33:14,440 --> 01:33:17,080 -And the natural language that we use to prompt. - -1988 -01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:20,040 -There is a big overlap between these two topics. - -1989 -01:33:20,040 --> 01:33:22,760 -And I think we were talking about that the other day, - -1990 -01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:26,680 -but I noticed that by prompting LLMs, - -1991 -01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:29,160 -I'm being very clear and consistent. - -1992 -01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:30,520 -I'm thinking something. - -1993 -01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:31,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -1994 -01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:35,880 -And to put my ideas in order in the way that makes sense for a standard system, - -1995 -01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:37,240 -that is kind of neutral. - -1996 -01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:43,640 -It kind of helped me to formulate things in order to express it to other people and so on. - -1997 -01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:47,880 -And there is something very interesting to spur, - -1998 -01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:51,240 -like the overlap between the natural language interface. - -1999 -01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:56,600 -Definitely, we are into something here because - -2000 -01:33:57,640 --> 01:34:03,160 -the natural language interface is something that's going to prevail in the time. - -2001 -01:34:03,160 --> 01:34:03,560 -Oh, yeah. - -2002 -01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:13,960 -It's going to be like the same that from toes keyboards to, sorry, - -2003 -01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:16,920 -to physical keyboards, to toes screens, you know. - -2004 -01:34:16,920 --> 01:34:18,280 -It's going to be the same. - -2005 -01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:24,280 -You had at the beginning one interface with physical keys that you have to, - -2006 -01:34:25,160 --> 01:34:31,560 -I prefer that to be honest, but then we have the toes screens that are more intuitive than you can. - -2007 -01:34:31,560 --> 01:34:34,600 -No, it's a massive, massive evolution in terms of interfaces. - -2008 -01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:38,040 -It's also, I like what I don't remember now who said it. - -2009 -01:34:38,040 --> 01:34:46,040 -Maybe it was hazard, kind of the next evolutionary step in terms of how we went from, - -2010 -01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:50,440 -you know, like, assembly to higher level languages. - -2011 -01:34:50,440 --> 01:34:53,640 -And now we're going, like, higher level languages, like C. - -2012 -01:34:56,680 --> 01:35:02,440 -And now we're going from high level languages to natural language, - -2013 -01:35:02,440 --> 01:35:05,480 -which is natural language and natural concepts, basically, - -2014 -01:35:05,480 --> 01:35:09,320 -which is, of course, a layer above and then it gets translated to, you know, - -2015 -01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:10,920 -like, TypeScript, most likely. - -2016 -01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:13,640 -Some form of JavaScript. - -2017 -01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:17,480 -Like, if you don't define the language, it will just default to JavaScript. - -2018 -01:35:17,480 --> 01:35:18,440 -It's really funny. - -2019 -01:35:18,440 --> 01:35:23,080 -It's just like, okay, everything I read, like, 90% of the code I read is JavaScript. - -2020 -01:35:23,080 --> 01:35:24,440 -So I'm just going to use JavaScript. - -2021 -01:35:24,440 --> 01:35:25,800 -Humans really like JavaScript. - -2022 -01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:27,400 -That's basically what they are thinking. - -2023 -01:35:27,400 --> 01:35:28,760 -Oh my God, I hate JavaScript. - -2024 -01:35:28,760 --> 01:35:30,280 -The JavaScript was make for humans. - -2025 -01:35:31,720 --> 01:35:35,160 -Anyway, now that I don't have to write or read it anymore, I can just vibe it. - -2026 -01:35:36,200 --> 01:35:37,160 -I like JavaScript now. - -2027 -01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:37,640 -It's okay. - -2028 -01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:38,200 -It's okay. - -2029 -01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:43,160 -I mean, we should change our natural language and use speaking HTML, CSS, - -2030 -01:35:43,240 --> 01:35:44,200 -and JavaScript. - -2031 -01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:44,760 -Yeah, exactly. - -2032 -01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:47,560 -It would be a much better structure than me. - -2033 -01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:50,040 -Yeah, that would work perfectly well. - -2034 -01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:51,640 -Marka, let's see. - -2035 -01:35:51,640 --> 01:35:52,600 -What do you say? - -2036 -01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:53,320 -Choose? - -2037 -01:35:53,320 --> 01:35:53,640 -Yes. - -2038 -01:35:53,640 --> 01:35:54,680 -I'm pretty cooked. - -2039 -01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:55,080 -Yeah. - -2040 -01:35:55,080 --> 01:35:55,560 -All right. - -2041 -01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:56,440 -Any final words? - -2042 -01:35:57,480 --> 01:35:58,120 -Last words. - -2043 -01:35:58,120 --> 01:36:00,520 -Any last words before Skynet takes over? - -2044 -01:36:00,520 --> 01:36:01,960 -And we're all going to make it? - -2045 -01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:02,840 -We're all going to make it? - -2046 -01:36:03,480 --> 01:36:04,440 -That's fantastic. - -2047 -01:36:06,040 --> 01:36:07,240 -Those are great final words. - -2048 -01:36:08,440 --> 01:36:09,960 -Let's see if we're still recording. - -2049 -01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:11,160 -Oh, yeah, we're lucky. - -2050 -01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:11,880 -Nice. - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/11 - 10x Less Productive - essence.md b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/11 - 10x Less Productive - essence.md deleted file mode 100644 index 754d15d4..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/11 - 10x Less Productive - essence.md +++ /dev/null @@ -1,56 +0,0 @@ -# Essence of "10x Less Productive" Conversation - -**Context:** A reflective discussion on productivity systems, AI-powered "vibe coding," and learnings from running multiple Sovereign Engineering cohorts. - -## Core Values & Principles - -1. **Self-Sovereignty First** - • Optimize everything for user self-sovereignty — the raison d'être of "Sovereign Engineering." - • Build atop Bitcoin, Lightning, eCash, Nostr and other open protocols that empower individuals. - -2. **Exploration Over Monetization** - • Early monetisation biases exploration; Sovereign Engineering deliberately excludes financial incentives, badges or VC cheques. - • Participants join for shared curiosity, not for payouts — "shared poverty" is a feature, not a bug. - -3. **Chaos Within Bounds** - • Intense six-week container (~21 highly-motivated builders). - • Weekly cadence provides minimal structure while allowing maximal creative chaos. - -4. **Cross-Pollination** - • Diverse expertise colliding sparks novel ideas (e.g. Tollgate = mesh + eCash). - • Long walks and unstructured conversations force big-picture thinking and values alignment before diving into implementation. - -5. **Build → Ship → Iterate** - • Participants are encouraged to demo something new each Friday. - • Judgment/feedback loops keep standards high; iteration happens between demo days. - -6. **Agentic / AI-Augmented Creation** - • "Vibe coding" embraces LLM agents to generate code; human focus shifts to context & architecture. - • Goal is 10× → 1000× leverage, not manual lines of code. - -## Cohort Rhythm (Weekly) - -| Day | Focus | Example Activities | -| --------- | ------------------------ | ------------------------------------------------------------------- | -| Monday | Orientation | Set intentions, form teams | -| Tuesday | Talks | Idea sharing, lightning talks | -| Wednesday | Workshops | Hands-on skill transfer (e.g. setting up Bitaxe with eCash payouts) | -| Thursday | Independent Work / Walks | Deep work, outdoor walks for ideation | -| Friday | Demo Day | Ship & showcase weekly experiments, collective review | - -## Notable Outcomes From Past Cohorts - -- **Blossom** — Nostr-native media hosting now widely adopted. -- **NIP-16 / NIP-61** — Protocol extensions born in cohort. -- **Wiki-Freedia**, **Tollgate**, **In-Sight** and more. - -## Why It Works - -• High talent density + shared mission. -• Psychological safety to explore "crazy ideas" without judgement on worth, only on execution. -• Physical & mental walks break fixation on _how_ and clarify _why_. -• Frequent demos create accountability and accelerate learning cycles. - ---- - -Built for builders who choose autonomy over permission. This is Sovereign Engineering in action. diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/11 - 10x Less Productive.srt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/11 - 10x Less Productive.srt deleted file mode 100644 index 76f6a090..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/11 - 10x Less Productive.srt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,8772 +0,0 @@ -1 -00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,000 -Okay, test test one two. Does it work? I'm not sure if I still know how to do it. No, it looks like it's working. Great. Oh yeah, let's do that. Everyone loves this nip. - -2 -00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:20,000 -I'm gonna keep everything. If it works, I'm gonna keep everything in as always. The whole setup. - -3 -00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:26,000 -Yeah, if the human needs to intervene, the system is broke. - -4 -00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:37,000 -And it's usual with our laughter. Yeah. No, like my whole pipeline is still not done. I didn't touch anything for the last, I don't know, two months now or so. - -5 -00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:55,000 -So, so I will still have to manually. Yeah, like, yeah, like, like, like, the cramage and I am, I have to manually call FFMPEG normalize on the MP3 file. - -6 -00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:08,000 -And once you do it by hand, before you open the file, the line of filing beam. I mean, that's what I used to do with Audacity, basically. It's like, it's everything's terrible. - -7 -00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:29,000 -No, but I just didn't sit down and wipe code to the last, like, the last, the last mile of the, of the pipeline. The point would be that the file that comes out of it goes through FFMPEG normalize and then uploads itself to blossom and just drafts everything up and so on. - -8 -00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:42,000 -Or just post it out immediately, I don't know. But anyway, I got sidetracked by doing the, the pop cast, I think, like, the generating a podcast feed from Henry, the, the RSS. - -9 -00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:58,000 -Noster, kind of one, basically, abusing all that. And it turns out I still use it almost every day because I put a couple of N pubs in, like, all the people that post videos, you know, like, Odell posts videos on Noster and - -10 -00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:11,000 -others and, like, some others and so on. And so I see it in my podcast feed and then I can just listen to the audio without having to open a Noster client. It's super useful to me. So anyway, it was good for something. - -11 -00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:19,000 -It has users. It has users. But enough about my, my, my adventures. What have you been doing the last two months? - -12 -00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,000 -The last two months, I've been getting more and more confused. - -13 -00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,000 -Great. Great start. We hate clarity. - -14 -00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,000 -Yes, what's the point? - -15 -00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,000 -Yeah, what's the point? It's just like, like, it's very boring. - -16 -00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,000 -Just join the hallucination. Confuse yourself. - -17 -00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:48,000 -Yeah, no, I've been working more and more and more on, on this 10X system that, that I've been posting the threat about it. - -18 -00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:54,000 -I remember that. I posted a threat. So it's published now. Yes, and it has users. - -19 -00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,000 -Really? Yeah. - -20 -00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,000 -People that come in with pull requests and destroy stuff. - -21 -00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,000 -I had a couple of pull requests. I didn't merge any. - -22 -00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:12,000 -Smart. You're smarter than me. You went too far into the yellow. - -23 -00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:19,000 -Yeah, you should be, one should be very skeptical about merging pull requests of bived stuff. - -24 -00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,000 -It will get better. It will get better. - -25 -00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:28,000 -I was, I was using today the, I was checking some stuff out on the, on the goose. - -26 -00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:33,000 -Website, you know, it's block. It's, it's, it's a big company. - -27 -00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:39,000 -I can totally tell that that website is bived coded. Nothing was working. - -28 -00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:45,000 -I started thinking, the internet, it's annoying to use is going to get a lot more annoying. - -29 -00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,000 -Everything is going to get worse. Everything is going to be broken. - -30 -00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:54,000 -So you look beautiful, dark mode, light mode, but everything's going to be shit. - -31 -00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,000 -But you, you switched from, you, you used RUCO exclusively, right? - -32 -00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,000 -And now you added glues into the mix? - -33 -00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:07,000 -Yeah, so, so it's, it's kind of interesting. So the, the whole 10X thing kind of started evolving. - -34 -00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,000 -I, I think 10X is no longer an accurate name. - -35 -00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,000 -So the two X more effort. - -36 -00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,000 -No, no, no, it's like a thousand X is the goal. - -37 -00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,000 -But it doesn't, it doesn't roll off the tongue, essentially. - -38 -00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,000 -So I'll stick with the name, but, uh, yeah. - -39 -00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,000 -So you think you're more productive with the system already? - -40 -00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,000 -I think I will be more productive. I am far less productive at the moment. - -41 -00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,000 -So the, the whole idea. - -42 -00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:43,000 -So, yeah, I, I changed so many things that I'm probably, uh, yeah, I should, I should explain a more. - -43 -00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,000 -Maybe sketch, sketch out what the basic idea is, because I kind of know, but I maybe I also don't. - -44 -00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:54,000 -Yeah, so, so the basic idea is that it will be a system that you use to create stuff. - -45 -00:04:54,000 --> 00:05:00,000 -I mean, obviously I am exclusively focused on software development. - -46 -00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,000 -But I, I think the same concept can be used for any kind of other task. - -47 -00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,000 -But I'm, I, I'm not even going to try to use it for that. - -48 -00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:15,000 -But the, the, the whole idea is to leverage an agentic system that evolves over time. - -49 -00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,000 -So the code snippets was kind of like the first. - -50 -00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,000 -So you teach the agents what to do? - -51 -00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,000 -I teach the agents. Yeah. - -52 -00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,000 -So the, the best case they learn on their own. - -53 -00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:28,000 -Yeah. So the, the whole idea is that I will not ever look at the code. - -54 -00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:37,000 -So what I see is that the elements are incredibly good at producing code that is brutal pace. - -55 -00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:42,000 -So whenever I'm writing code manually, it's almost as if I'm wasting my time. - -56 -00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,000 -It's, it's so, so much slower than it's almost wasting my time, right? - -57 -00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:56,000 -So given that premise, the idea is then software development can no longer center around code itself. - -58 -00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,000 -So what does it center around? - -59 -00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:05,000 -And I think the, one of the pillars is the context, right? - -60 -00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,000 -The, the elements, regardless of the models improving and becoming better and better and better, - -61 -00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:16,000 -they will still have some, just because of physics, they will have some kind of context limitation, right? - -62 -00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,000 -That's why we have a specialist engineers, right? - -63 -00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,000 -Yeah. - -64 -00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:27,000 -So what I want to manage is what goes into the models to execute on each individual task. - -65 -00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,000 -And that's what the system should manage. - -66 -00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:37,000 -So the, the way the, the approach evolved over time. - -67 -00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,000 -So I, if you remember, if you recall, I started with the, the code snippets thing. - -68 -00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:43,000 -Yeah. - -69 -00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,000 -And I noticed that it was incredibly improvement. - -70 -00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:55,000 -The system would learn to go from something that doesn't work to it works every single time immediately. - -71 -00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,000 -And that's very, very much the same idea that Alex Cleason had, right? - -72 -00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:05,000 -Like with the MKStax, he does the same thing where he just has a repository of how to do stuff. - -73 -00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,000 -Yes, exactly. - -74 -00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:14,000 -And I actually, because I had not spoken with Cleason about any of these stuff. - -75 -00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:19,000 -So we had a call, I think it was last week, where we kind of synced up. - -76 -00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,000 -And I noticed that my approach and his approach, they burst. - -77 -00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,000 -So the goal is kind of the same. - -78 -00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,000 -The approach is, I think it's polar opposites. - -79 -00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:34,000 -He centered on making, so do you know the different, I didn't know. - -80 -00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,000 -Do you know the difference that he has between Stax and MKStax? - -81 -00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,000 -No. - -82 -00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,000 -It's literally just a project template, right? - -83 -00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:50,000 -Like as we had project templates for however long, where you go to buy a like a twin or template, - -84 -00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,000 -and you get like a beautiful styling and shit like that, right? - -85 -00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,000 -So Stax is literally just Stax. - -86 -00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,000 -It's just templates, published just notes or events. - -87 -00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,000 -So, okay. - -88 -00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,000 -MKStax is one template. - -89 -00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:05,000 -Oh, sorry. - -90 -00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:13,000 -It's one template, which is the one that he is sharpening, right? - -91 -00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:19,000 -So it is literally this one, I don't know, probably like I think it's a mixture, yes, - -92 -00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,000 -or a bite, bite up or whatever. - -93 -00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:29,000 -With a bunch of rules of how to build apps within that framework, right? - -94 -00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:34,000 -So his approach is build something, whatever, build like try to one shot, - -95 -00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,000 -whatever, like a GitHub replacement or whatever it might be, - -96 -00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:46,000 -whenever he fails on executing in a single shot on what you wanted to build, - -97 -00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:55,000 -go in and add more and more and more instructions into the mix to fix each marginal error that the system makes. - -98 -00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:01,000 -What does he use as like the underlying master library, if any? - -99 -00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:06,000 -One key he wrote, not free fire, I think it's okay. - -100 -00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,000 -Which is the one that he did for use for a deal. - -101 -00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,000 -Yeah, yeah, okay. - -102 -00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:22,000 -So the way it, the approach that I have is that I want, - -103 -00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,000 -so he's not doing multi-agent stuff. - -104 -00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:30,000 -His stuff is literally just a big long of least of mistakes you've made in the past, - -105 -00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,000 -and I'm correct at each individual one, is quite similar to the idea of the code snippets. - -106 -00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,000 -You wrote this code wrong, this is the right code, never make that mistake again, - -107 -00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,000 -and you fix, marginally you fix each individual error. - -108 -00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,000 -And his thing is a common line tool, right? - -109 -00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -110 -00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:51,000 -So my, what I'm thinking, - -111 -00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,000 -and kind of the, the, the, the, the, the one that it's all, - -112 -00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:00,000 -it told you before recording is every single individual user interaction, - -113 -00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:05,000 -or user in terms of human intervention is a catastrophic mistake. - -114 -00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,000 -Something happened with the system should have done well, and it didn't do. - -115 -00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,000 -So every time the user has to intervene, - -116 -00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,000 -it's an opportunity to learn something. - -117 -00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:23,000 -It should only, like, like, you should only intervene to kind of steer - -118 -00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,000 -and give additional prompts not to fix mistakes. - -119 -00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:32,000 -Not to fix mistakes, but also I, I, I think the LLMs can get, - -120 -00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:38,000 -are already at the point we just don't have the, the, the tooling and the, the thinking around them. - -121 -00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:43,000 -So here's an interesting exercise I did to, to test it. - -122 -00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:49,000 -I gave up us for the latest, uh, on topic, on topic mode. - -123 -00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:54,000 -I gave it the whole nips repo and I told it, I, I coded so that it would go - -124 -00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:00,000 -and it would read every single PR and every single discussion on all the PRs. - -125 -00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,000 -What's rejected, what's accepted, why? - -126 -00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,000 -And I told it to extrapolate the values of Noster from that. - -127 -00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,000 -Yeah. - -128 -00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,000 -The report that it wrote is fucking insane. - -129 -00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,000 -Yeah. - -130 -00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:20,000 -It went to the cypher punk values and it started speaking about how to think, - -131 -00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,000 -not from an implementation perspective or anything like that, - -132 -00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,000 -how to think about what is a good nip and what is a buttony, - -133 -00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,000 -what is a good protocol and a bad protocol. - -134 -00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:35,000 -I actually asked it, what nips don't fit in these, these values. - -135 -00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,000 -And it pointed to the right nips. - -136 -00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,000 -I can tell me, nip 29 is kind of weird. - -137 -00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:46,000 -Nip 29's request is demanding from the release that they changed the way they - -138 -00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,000 -behave. - -139 -00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,000 -It's breaking this and this and this core. - -140 -00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:55,000 -And what's fascinating is that it didn't pull just individual lines. - -141 -00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,000 -It didn't source me, okay, I got this line from here. - -142 -00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,000 -It really extracted the value. - -143 -00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,000 -It got to the essence of it. - -144 -00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,000 -It got to the essence of it. - -145 -00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,000 -So I think that is already possible. - -146 -00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,000 -Even enough content. - -147 -00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,000 -I mean, that's what the LLAMs are. - -148 -00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,000 -Good. - -149 -00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,000 -I mean, in some sense, you read all this as well and you came to the same conclusion. - -150 -00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -151 -00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,000 -So there is a long, long time. - -152 -00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,000 -And the LLAM can just do it in like a couple of minutes basically in some sense. - -153 -00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,000 -Exactly. - -154 -00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,000 -It took like an hour. - -155 -00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,000 -Yeah. - -156 -00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,000 -Anyway, it was like 100 bucks. - -157 -00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,000 -Yeah. - -158 -00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,000 -It was insanely worth it. - -159 -00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:35,000 -It's still cheaper than hiring someone that reads through everything for one and a half years. - -160 -00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:41,000 -A few people would go and read all that and arrive to those deep conclusions. - -161 -00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,000 -That's kind of the awesome thing about it. - -162 -00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:50,000 -Very few people are so obsessive about this stuff, especially the niche stuff. - -163 -00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,000 -Like you are or some of the other nasty developers are. - -164 -00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:58,000 -And now you have like an obsessive nerd in your pocket for like a couple bucks basically. - -165 -00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:04,000 -They can't get really, can't get to the heart of any matter as long as the corpus of information is large enough - -166 -00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,000 -that the heart of the matter can be extracted in the first place. - -167 -00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:08,000 -Exactly. - -168 -00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:09,000 -Exactly. - -169 -00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:16,000 -And so to me what's interesting is that now that dude, that report is an agent in my system. - -170 -00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,000 -Yeah. - -171 -00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,000 -It's not looking at code. - -172 -00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,000 -Yeah. - -173 -00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,000 -It's just understanding the broader picture of the values of the system. - -174 -00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:23,000 -Yeah. - -175 -00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,000 -And it can, and this is what, what how Tenix is evolving. - -176 -00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:33,000 -The agents now, they are able to differentiate between what is like a system. - -177 -00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,000 -I mean, what is like a simple task like fucking put make this button look nice. - -178 -00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,000 -Whatever. - -179 -00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,000 -Yeah. - -180 -00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,000 -Like a simple task. - -181 -00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,000 -And what is a more philosophical task? - -182 -00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,000 -Yeah. - -183 -00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:48,000 -So I wrote an agent that is a brick, brick, brick, brick. - -184 -00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,000 -Oh, bricky. - -185 -00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,000 -Yeah. - -186 -00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,000 -So now they have discussions. - -187 -00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:56,000 -My agents have discussions about the philosophy of what they're working on. - -188 -00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,000 -And the interesting thing is that. - -189 -00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:05,000 -Me as the human, and any white Lisa Pavke, can participate in the discussion. - -190 -00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,000 -Yeah. - -191 -00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,000 -It's just notary events. - -192 -00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:13,000 -That's the, that's why I was asking whether MKS access just to CLI so to speak. - -193 -00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,000 -Yeah. - -194 -00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,000 -Because I think what's interesting about this stuff, you're building out is that everything lifts on NOSTER. - -195 -00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,000 -And you can interact on NOSTER directly. - -196 -00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,000 -Exactly. - -197 -00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,000 -I think that's a super interesting approach where you just, you, you have this multi agent environment. - -198 -00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,000 -And they just all post to NOSTER basically. - -199 -00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:31,000 -And if you have to intervene, you don't need to jump back into an IDE or like sit in front of a computer. - -200 -00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,000 -Oh, no, absolutely. - -201 -00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,000 -To go into a CLI or whatever. - -202 -00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:38,000 -You just, you just use whatever NOSTER client you have to reply to the things and then stuff happens. - -203 -00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,000 -And stuff happens. - -204 -00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:44,000 -And what, what, what I find fascinating and the, the, the way I'm thinking about it. - -205 -00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,000 -And I, I kind of write to this conclusion today after thinking for a long time. - -206 -00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,000 -But what I've noticed is that. - -207 -00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,000 -There's a human, right? - -208 -00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,000 -At the very top of the pyramid of the hierarchy, there's a human. - -209 -00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,000 -And the way we've been approaching, like if you go to cursor or RUCO or anything like that. - -210 -00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,000 -It's for the most part a very flat structure. - -211 -00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:10,000 -Where the human comes in and says, work on these, building these blood and blood and blood. - -212 -00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,000 -Yeah. - -213 -00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:15,000 -And the way RUCO has it, which when I saw it, I was like, fucking in awe. - -214 -00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,000 -I was absolutely mind blowing out. - -215 -00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,000 -Now I think that it's quite basic. - -216 -00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,000 -It has, by default, this orchestrator mode. - -217 -00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,000 -Yeah. - -218 -00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,000 -That is directing the work. - -219 -00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,000 -But it's just literally just delegating work. - -220 -00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,000 -Yeah. - -221 -00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,000 -Okay. - -222 -00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,000 -Code must be written. - -223 -00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:32,000 -Let's go into the coding agent. - -224 -00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,000 -Yeah. - -225 -00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,000 -There's a bug. - -226 -00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,000 -Let's go into the debugging agent. - -227 -00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,000 -You know, yes, it's, it's good. - -228 -00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:38,000 -It's useful. - -229 -00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,000 -But it's quite limited actually. - -230 -00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,000 -So the approach that I have now is that. - -231 -00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,000 -I have, this is just a thesis. - -232 -00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,000 -But the approach that I have now is that. - -233 -00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:56,000 -I'm going to have one of my agents be a human replica. - -234 -00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,000 -Okay. - -235 -00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,000 -Which is the name that I wrote on the diagram. - -236 -00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:04,000 -A human replica, which we look at every single event that I write. - -237 -00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,000 -Every single event, every single process. - -238 -00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,000 -So you want to assimilate yourself in some sense down the line? - -239 -00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,000 -Yes. - -240 -00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:15,000 -So I want this guy to learn to meet me, to meet me. - -241 -00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:16,000 -How you would intervene. - -242 -00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:17,000 -Yeah. - -243 -00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,000 -How I would intervene. - -244 -00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,000 -Yeah. - -245 -00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:20,000 -Yeah. - -246 -00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,000 -And also what you are, what you are kind of. - -247 -00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,000 -Taste is in some sense and what your values are because that's what it boils down to with all this. - -248 -00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:28,000 -100%. - -249 -00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,000 -100%. - -250 -00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,000 -And. - -251 -00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,000 -How would you build it? - -252 -00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,000 -How would you make this decision? - -253 -00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,000 -Yeah. - -254 -00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:38,000 -And if we, I mean, I talked with Paul about this, I think it's basically that it comes back to. - -255 -00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,000 -You know, we have these role models that are like exemplars of humanity. - -256 -00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,000 -And that's where we, it's like, you know, what would Jesus do? - -257 -00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,000 -Yeah. - -258 -00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,000 -Kind of thing. - -259 -00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,000 -Yeah. - -260 -00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,000 -It's like, do you have these tricky situations? - -261 -00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,000 -There is no right answer. - -262 -00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,000 -So you ask yourself, I mean, Verveki talks about this all the time. - -263 -00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,000 -That's why you basically try to have an internal dialogue with the sage. - -264 -00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,000 -That's where, like, what would Jesus do? - -265 -00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,000 -Comes from. - -266 -00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,000 -And it all boils down to values. - -267 -00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,000 -I mean, that's obviously in the, you know, moral domain and so on and so forth. - -268 -00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,000 -Like, it's far removed. - -269 -00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,000 -It seems to be far removed from the technical domain. - -270 -00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,000 -But in some sense, it is down to that. - -271 -00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,000 -Yeah, yeah, because that's what you mentioned before. - -272 -00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,000 -It goes through all the nip discussions. - -273 -00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,000 -Like, what is the essence of Noster? - -274 -00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,000 -And we talked about this a lot in the Southern engineering context. - -275 -00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,000 -It's like, what does it mean to build something in the spirit of Bitcoin? - -276 -00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,000 -And just like, this phrase alone will tell you something. - -277 -00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:31,000 -What is the one specific language code you can't? - -278 -00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,000 -But out of the code, values do emerge. - -279 -00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,000 -Absolutely. - -280 -00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,000 -And everyone who, you know, like studied Bitcoin for 10 years or something like that, - -281 -00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,000 -they know what it means to build something in the spirit of Bitcoin. - -282 -00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,000 -And like, a lot of the Noster devs now also, you know, come to their conclusion. - -283 -00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,000 -Like, there is a Noster way of doing things. - -284 -00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,000 -And it's very hard to point to it. - -285 -00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,000 -It's like, no, it's not one single thing. - -286 -00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,000 -You know, it's not like this, it's exactly this rule that you have to follow. - -287 -00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,000 -And then that's it. - -288 -00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,000 -And that's kind of the same thing. - -289 -00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,000 -In the same way that I cannot point to this part of your brain. - -290 -00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,000 -And say, this is easy. - -291 -00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -292 -00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,000 -The same thing. - -293 -00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,000 -What's the spirit of the thing? - -294 -00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,000 -But in general, like all the tricky questions, like, what is the right thing to do? - -295 -00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,000 -You can never put it in the rule. - -296 -00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:21,000 -And that's why you have to ask yourself, what would Jesus do? - -297 -00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,000 -Precisely. - -298 -00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,000 -So you have your 10 commandments now for 10x. - -299 -00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,000 -Yes. - -300 -00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,000 -That's right. - -301 -00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,000 -Yes. - -302 -00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,000 -And what I've noticed is that I think mistakes. - -303 -00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:40,000 -So if we go back to the pyramid scheme, you go back to the pyramid, the human at the top. - -304 -00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,000 -In some sense, the values should be at the top. - -305 -00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,000 -That's where they emerge from. - -306 -00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:52,000 -And then at the very bottom, the leaf of the tree is the things that are actually executing things. - -307 -00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,000 -Touching coal or doing whatever it might be. - -308 -00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,000 -All the meaning and value of think boys would agree with that, by the way. - -309 -00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,000 -Perfect. - -310 -00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,000 -Peterson and Verveki would agree with that in some sense. - -311 -00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,000 -The values should be on top. - -312 -00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:15,000 -And if there is some mistake, the mistake will tend to happen more often towards the end, towards the leaf. - -313 -00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:22,000 -Like there is a wrong approach, a wrong implementation, an error of some kind. - -314 -00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,000 -It will tend to happen towards the leaf. - -315 -00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,000 -Because something that's lost in translation. - -316 -00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,000 -Exactly. - -317 -00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:35,000 -So any type of mistake that must be corrected is analyzed from the system. - -318 -00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:43,000 -And so here's the other, yeah, there's like a few technical but important aspects to what I'm working on. - -319 -00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,000 -Is each agent has... - -320 -00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,000 -It's just done on me that that's an unavoidable problem. - -321 -00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,000 -Is it what? - -322 -00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,000 -It's an unavoidable problem, I think. - -323 -00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,000 -Which one? - -324 -00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:58,000 -Something will always get lost in translation, just because of the generalist versus specialist distinction. - -325 -00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,000 -Yes. - -326 -00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:05,000 -You will never be able to perfectly explain to a specialist why he should do this thing. - -327 -00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,000 -And he will, a specialist will never figure it out on his own. - -328 -00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,000 -Because if he would be able to figure it out on his own, he would be a generalist. - -329 -00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,000 -And those two things that are in contradiction with each other. - -330 -00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,000 -So how are you going to solve this? - -331 -00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:24,000 -So the way I approximate a solution is that lessons will bubble up. - -332 -00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:30,000 -So you have both top-down and bottom-up tensions? - -333 -00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,000 -So the... - -334 -00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,000 -You have top-down constraints and bottom-up emergence. - -335 -00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,000 -That's basically a very waky line. - -336 -00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,000 -Yes, that's absolutely the approach. - -337 -00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,000 -There might be a mistake that happens towards the execution layer towards the leaf of the tree. - -338 -00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:55,000 -That includes a broader lesson about the thing that can be learned from a more generalist. - -339 -00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:03,000 -So the way I'm thinking is that I'll have my human replica agent. - -340 -00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:09,000 -And that one agent will be kind of subdivided into different fields. - -341 -00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,000 -Into like a philosophical field, into a technical field. - -342 -00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,000 -How do you do the communication up and down? - -343 -00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,000 -It's all not sir. - -344 -00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,000 -And there is a very good reason. - -345 -00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,000 -And when is it? Because the way I'm visualizing it right now is basically. - -346 -00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,000 -If you're a specialist and just to pick... - -347 -00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:31,000 -Just to get away from the purely theoretical emphasis, like really break it down to an example. - -348 -00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,000 -Like we have agents now that... - -349 -00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,000 -We have elements now that specialize on merging diffs. - -350 -00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:41,000 -And they're 5,000 times cheaper than like whatever, like an opus or whatever. - -351 -00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,000 -And like people really need to understand the generalist specialist distinction. - -352 -00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,000 -Like it's an economic thing. - -353 -00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,000 -You cannot have the whole broad view of the world. - -354 -00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,000 -And be a specialist at the same time. - -355 -00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,000 -It's just like you cannot have a tool that does all jobs perfectly. - -356 -00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,000 -You either have a sharp knife. - -357 -00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,000 -And then it's a sharp knife. - -358 -00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,000 -And you can cut things with it. - -359 -00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,000 -But you won't be able to, I don't know, like it's not an excavator, you know? - -360 -00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,000 -Or it's not a spoon. - -361 -00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,000 -Which is kind of where hallucination from LLM's come from. - -362 -00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:17,000 -It's when they try to go brother while keeping a detailed view of the thing that is larger than what they can actually see. - -363 -00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,000 -I mean that's where hallucinations come from, period. - -364 -00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:26,000 -Because as a generalist, for example, creativity and execution are in contradiction to each other. - -365 -00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,000 -If you want to start a new endeavor, you have to be very creative. - -366 -00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,000 -Because you have to imagine how this thing could look. - -367 -00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,000 -You need lots of imagination. - -368 -00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,000 -And you have to literally dream something up that doesn't exist yet. - -369 -00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:46,000 -And if you're just a nuts and bolts kind of guy that literally puts, you know, a bolt through a thing and puts the nut on, - -370 -00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,000 -that completely gets into your way. - -371 -00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,000 -It's just like you know exactly what you need to do. - -372 -00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,000 -There is no room for imagination. - -373 -00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,000 -There is no room for experimentation and like having to dream up a new thing. - -374 -00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,000 -You know exactly what you need to do. - -375 -00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,000 -And you do it in the most efficient way possible. - -376 -00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,000 -And that's it. - -377 -00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,000 -Imagination site, there is no most efficient way to dream up something new. - -378 -00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,000 -You know, like it's a completely different kind of field. - -379 -00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,000 -So you always have this distinction. - -380 -00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,000 -But back to the actual example. - -381 -00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,000 -So you have a set of agents and they are arranged in a hierarchy. - -382 -00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,000 -I mean, now it's a sound like Peterson. - -383 -00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,000 -Terrible. - -384 -00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,000 -Oh my god. - -385 -00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,000 -I'm gonna be in like shining city and cyberspace territory in no time flat. - -386 -00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,000 -He just talked to Sailor. - -387 -00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,000 -He was like, I'm still triggered. - -388 -00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,000 -I'm still triggered by half the things. - -389 -00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,000 -But anyway. - -390 -00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,000 -So you have a hierarchy of agents and you have basically the, - -391 -00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,000 -so to speak creative director on top. - -392 -00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,000 -Yes. - -393 -00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,000 -You have like a, or to use a different terminology. - -394 -00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:48,000 -You have like a, the wise architect or the wise orchestrator. - -395 -00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,000 -That kind of knows what is the right thing to do. - -396 -00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:57,000 -And he has his own like managers and agents below him. - -397 -00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,000 -And at the very bottom, for example, - -398 -00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,000 -one of the leaves would be the diff alarm. - -399 -00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,000 -Yes. - -400 -00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,000 -That does diff perfectly. - -401 -00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,000 -Every time something needs to be merged. - -402 -00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,000 -It does be a radio. - -403 -00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,000 -It does that kind of thing. - -404 -00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,000 -And it's looking at that. - -405 -00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,000 -It doesn't give a proper efficient. - -406 -00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,000 -And it's super efficient. - -407 -00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,000 -It doesn't care about the philosophy behind it. - -408 -00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,000 -Exactly. - -409 -00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,000 -Couldn't care about it. - -410 -00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,000 -And it also shouldn't care because it should be super efficient. - -411 -00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,000 -It should be cheap. - -412 -00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,000 -It never tells you if there's a syntax error. - -413 -00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,000 -It's not going to tell you, you shouldn't be working on this. - -414 -00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,000 -The compiler compiles. - -415 -00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,000 -And that's it. - -416 -00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,000 -Yeah. - -417 -00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,000 -And you need that in any working system anyway. - -418 -00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,000 -Like you need the execution part. - -419 -00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,000 -And the execution part shouldn't philosophize. - -420 -00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,000 -No, you don't want it to philosophize. - -421 -00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,000 -It cannot. - -422 -00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,000 -It's either in the right code or it builds code. - -423 -00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,000 -And so you have the hierarchy and you, - -424 -00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,000 -you are basically directing. - -425 -00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,000 -I'm directing the why. - -426 -00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,000 -I'm directing the why and in some sense the what. - -427 -00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,000 -But ideally not even the what. - -428 -00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,000 -And who is doing the orchestration? - -429 -00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,000 -Like who is building the hierarchy of agents? - -430 -00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,000 -They kind of some of themselves. - -431 -00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,000 -Yeah. - -432 -00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,000 -Yeah. - -433 -00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:11,000 -So that's part of what's the trigger to ask the upper layers for advice. - -434 -00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,000 -Because I guess how it works in the human world is like, - -435 -00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,000 -you're a specialist and you're not sure how to solve this particular problem. - -436 -00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,000 -So you go one layer up and ask someone for advice. - -437 -00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,000 -How should we do this? - -438 -00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,000 -So that communication, the way I've been thinking about it, - -439 -00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:31,000 -it doesn't prevent the going down or going up for, - -440 -00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:36,000 -but I'm thinking about it horizontally where they engage different aspects. - -441 -00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,000 -And this is, I found the most value on this. - -442 -00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,000 -I've found it so far on, on architectural planning. - -443 -00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:53,000 -Every single time I created a discussion with multiple agents on the architectural planning of a thing that must be built, - -444 -00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,000 -the discussion always yields very useful results. - -445 -00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,000 -So better results than when you would just do. - -446 -00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,000 -Then when you just sell to a system, I want to build this feature for whatever. - -447 -00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,000 -How should I architect it? - -448 -00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,000 -When there is a discussion going on, I mean, - -449 -00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,000 -that's to make his point of distributed cognition. - -450 -00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,000 -So that's the thing. - -451 -00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:23,000 -So now, in 10X, each agent is at the finition of a system. - -452 -00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:29,000 -So for example, for the philosophy of not the one, - -453 -00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,000 -it's like this idea of what are the values of not the right. - -454 -00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:40,000 -For their vague, one is a corpus of stuff that he has written, - -455 -00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,000 -has said, and stuff like that. - -456 -00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,000 -When they, each agent is an action-noster event, - -457 -00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:54,000 -like that definition is a non-replaceable noster event with a version number. - -458 -00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,000 -Each time I create a project, that agent, - -459 -00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,000 -I say, like I create a, I might create a project and say, - -460 -00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,000 -I'm going to have this Asian decision, literally just clicking and saying, - -461 -00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,000 -OK, this guy, this guy, this guy. - -462 -00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,000 -I want this personalities to be involved in this project. - -463 -00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,000 -So you can browse noster for those personalities, basically. - -464 -00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,000 -What's part of the event? - -465 -00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,000 -I guess my question is, where does the data live that makes, - -466 -00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,000 -where is the agent's brain? - -467 -00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,000 -So the agent brain is the DLLM. - -468 -00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,000 -But the brain is the DLLM. - -469 -00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,000 -So you have a model spec, and you have a system prompt? - -470 -00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,000 -Yes. - -471 -00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,000 -Yeah. - -472 -00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,000 -So it's basically, I don't know, just a random example. - -473 -00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:43,000 -Lama 3, and this system prompt, which lives on Noster as well, - -474 -00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,000 -which is really long. - -475 -00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:51,000 -The finding what it cares about, all this stuff. - -476 -00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,000 -And then in theory, you have your clone. - -477 -00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,000 -Like, that's how, that's. - -478 -00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,000 -One of my clones will be, my clone will be one of these people. - -479 -00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -480 -00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,000 -So if I was, that is version, because I want you to evolve over time. - -481 -00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,000 -Yeah. - -482 -00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,000 -So if I want to know how Pablo would build a client that, I don't know, - -483 -00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,000 -only this, this place, prove a work notes and orders them by prove a work, - -484 -00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,000 -then you would get, I don't need to the MU. - -485 -00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,000 -I can just get the agent from Noster and Noster. - -486 -00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,000 -And get, and the thing is that agents themselves, - -487 -00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,000 -within 10x agents themselves, can go in and browse for other agents. - -488 -00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,000 -Yeah. - -489 -00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,000 -And can hire. - -490 -00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,000 -It's basically like, yeah, who would I ask? - -491 -00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,000 -Who would I ask for help on doing this? - -492 -00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,000 -Who could best solve this problem for me? - -493 -00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,000 -And the interesting thing is that within each project, - -494 -00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:43,000 -when you do something, and there is a mistake, and the human must intervene in the thing, - -495 -00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:49,000 -that intervention means there is a, again, like a catastrophic failure of the system. - -496 -00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,000 -Something was wrong. - -497 -00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,000 -What was wrong? - -498 -00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,000 -And that's where 10x fires into, like, this reflection point, - -499 -00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:03,000 -or each agent that was involved in the tree that got to the agent that made the mistake, - -500 -00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,000 -reflects on what happened. - -501 -00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,000 -How do you, how do you identify mistakes in the first place? - -502 -00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,000 -Is it, is it, you mentioned- - -503 -00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,000 -If the human intervened, something was wrong. - -504 -00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,000 -But you also mentioned that the agents will, they will basically, - -505 -00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,000 -I mean, the log that you see, most people, I think, by now, are familiar with cursor, - -506 -00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,000 -and how it works, and so on, or, like, even chat GPT, - -507 -00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,000 -and you see the thinking of what it does, and so on, - -508 -00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,000 -and step by step, what it does. - -509 -00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,000 -Like, all that stuff in your system is being posted to NOSR as events. - -510 -00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,000 -Every single thing is basically the- - -511 -00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,000 -Yeah. - -512 -00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,000 -...as an author event. - -513 -00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,000 -And you can just ask. - -514 -00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,000 -Yeah. - -515 -00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,000 -But you can just tell it within this line of reasoning, - -516 -00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,000 -you end up in this wrong place, find where you went wrong. - -517 -00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,000 -Yeah. - -518 -00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,000 -And where did you go wrong according to my definition of rights? - -519 -00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,000 -Yes. - -520 -00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,000 -And record the lesson, which is- - -521 -00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,000 -Yeah. - -522 -00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,000 -And author events. - -523 -00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,000 -That is tagging the Asian definition. - -524 -00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,000 -But you also mentioned that you have, like, a confidence interval of things. - -525 -00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,000 -Yes. - -526 -00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,000 -So every single time they published something, - -527 -00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,000 -they published the commit, the commit log, - -528 -00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,000 -the ref log, the current hash of the commit of the repo they're working on, - -529 -00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,000 -if there is a repo. - -530 -00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,000 -And the confidence level. - -531 -00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,000 -If confidence drops below five, - -532 -00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,000 -they- - -533 -00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,000 -So confidence is from, like, 0% to 100%. - -534 -00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,000 -Yeah. - -535 -00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,000 -Exactly. - -536 -00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,000 -So they kind of self-report whether they know what they are doing right now or not. - -537 -00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,000 -They always report the right- - -538 -00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,000 -With every commit. - -539 -00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,000 -It's insane. - -540 -00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,000 -And every step gets committed. - -541 -00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:39,000 -It's insane because when they start, the LLM starts saying, - -542 -00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,000 -I'm trying this and it didn't work. - -543 -00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,000 -I'm going to try this out. - -544 -00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,000 -I think it immediately drops the confidence level. - -545 -00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,000 -I mean, they just fucking tell you. - -546 -00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,000 -Yeah. - -547 -00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,000 -Like, you literally just force them. - -548 -00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,000 -In order to publish, the MCP2 requires the confidence score. - -549 -00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,000 -Yeah, okay. - -550 -00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,000 -And it's just reported. - -551 -00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,000 -And it works. - -552 -00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,000 -Yeah. - -553 -00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,000 -It's fucking insane. - -554 -00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,000 -But it works. - -555 -00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,000 -Yeah. - -556 -00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,000 -So when they- - -557 -00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,000 -They- - -558 -00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,000 -This is always- - -559 -00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,000 -Yeah. - -560 -00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,000 -We're always getting real. - -561 -00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,000 -We're telling it's right, man. - -562 -00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,000 -Yeah. - -563 -00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,000 -But it's fine. - -564 -00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,000 -We'll just walk through the waves again and rape everyone's ears. - -565 -00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,000 -And it's like they're all they think it's okay. - -566 -00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,000 -So the- - -567 -00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,000 -It's- - -568 -00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,000 -I mean, I think- - -569 -00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,000 -I think with the confidence- - -570 -00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,000 -Do- - -571 -00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,000 -You just- - -572 -00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,000 -You just put this as part of every prompt. - -573 -00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,000 -It's like- - -574 -00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,000 -No. - -575 -00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,000 -In order to use the MCP2. - -576 -00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:28,000 -So the way they use the MCP2 is they list what MCP2s do I have available? - -577 -00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,000 -What's the description? - -578 -00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,000 -And they see the parameters. - -579 -00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,000 -And one of them- - -580 -00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,000 -It says confidence. - -581 -00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,000 -When you report, you must say- - -582 -00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,000 -And- - -583 -00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,000 -Literally, it's a one line. - -584 -00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,000 -Yeah. - -585 -00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,000 -That explains what they must do. - -586 -00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,000 -Yeah. - -587 -00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,000 -It's not enough that it's actually super useful because- - -588 -00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,000 -It is extremely useful and it works every day. - -589 -00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,000 -Do you have some automation around that already in the sense of- - -590 -00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:47,000 -Oh, yeah. - -591 -00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,000 -The MCP2 stops it. - -592 -00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,000 -But the reason why I asked about the confidence interval is like- - -593 -00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,000 -Because how I- - -594 -00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,000 -How it actually works in the real world right now- - -595 -00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,000 -With- - -596 -00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,000 -Where we have exactly the same structure. - -597 -00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,000 -It's really funny that- - -598 -00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,000 -You know, just by experimenting- - -599 -00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,000 -Intensely for like, you know, 16 hours a day or the last couple of months- - -600 -00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,000 -You land on exactly the same structure that we have in companies- - -601 -00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,000 -Right. - -602 -00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,000 -Like regular organizations and so on. - -603 -00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,000 -And what usually happens is like- - -604 -00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,000 -If you are a specialist, like- - -605 -00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,000 -If you're down- - -606 -00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,000 -Down the line, if you're- - -607 -00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,000 -Especially if you're a leaf, you know, like the lower you- - -608 -00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,000 -To the bottom you are in an organizational hierarchy- - -609 -00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,000 -The less unsure you are, why are you doing the things that you're doing? - -610 -00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,000 -Because you don't have the big picture and all those kind of things. - -611 -00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,000 -And you- - -612 -00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,000 -You literally can't understand it. - -613 -00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,000 -Otherwise, you would be the boss, right? - -614 -00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,000 -Yes. - -615 -00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,000 -And so- - -616 -00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,000 -And so- - -617 -00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,000 -Once you are on confidence interval drops below a certain level- - -618 -00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,000 -And that's different for every person- - -619 -00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,000 -You're gonna go and ask someone. - -620 -00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,000 -You're gonna go to a higher-up and it's like- - -621 -00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,000 -Why are we doing this shit? - -622 -00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,000 -Because it's- - -623 -00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,000 -There's two options. - -624 -00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,000 -Either you don't understand it, and you don't see the big picture- - -625 -00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,000 -Which is actually quite likely. - -626 -00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:52,000 -The other one is like- - -627 -00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,000 -You're actually on to something. - -628 -00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,000 -You know? - -629 -00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,000 -And the stuff that you've been doing all the time the last couple of months- - -630 -00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,000 -Is actually stupid. - -631 -00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,000 -And you should stop doing it. - -632 -00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,000 -You know, the higher-ups need to change something. - -633 -00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,000 -So that's why I'm basically asking. - -634 -00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,000 -Is there some automation around- - -635 -00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,000 -Kind of- - -636 -00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,000 -If the confidence interval is low enough- - -637 -00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,000 -Like, go back a couple of steps- - -638 -00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,000 -And like, ask the superiors- - -639 -00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,000 -And like, you know, rethink things maybe- - -640 -00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,000 -Or something like that? - -641 -00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,000 -Yeah. - -642 -00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,000 -So I don't have any of that yet. - -643 -00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,000 -What I had in mind is slightly different. - -644 -00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,000 -And yeah, so what I had in mind is- - -645 -00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,000 -When an agent gets to the point of being confused- - -646 -00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,000 -It's going to publish on Noster- - -647 -00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,000 -As a kind one- - -648 -00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,000 -Asking for help, basically. - -649 -00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,000 -And it will offer money to people that give it- - -650 -00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,000 -Because the agent have money, right? - -651 -00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,000 -So it will offer- - -652 -00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,000 -Kind of like a bounty, if you will- - -653 -00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,000 -Of- - -654 -00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,000 -Hey, help me get unstuck on this one thing, right? - -655 -00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,000 -Okay. - -656 -00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,000 -Another agent can reply. - -657 -00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,000 -I was thinking yesterday of an agent overflow- - -658 -00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,000 -Like a stuck overflow, but for- - -659 -00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,000 -You saw the stuck overflow article- - -660 -00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,000 -How it's basically dead now? - -661 -00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,000 -No, I didn't see it. - -662 -00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,000 -It's not a thing. - -663 -00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,000 -Jesus. - -664 -00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,000 -No, it's like- - -665 -00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,000 -The amount of questions that are asked and answered currently- - -666 -00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,000 -Are at the same level as when stuck overflow was launched. - -667 -00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,000 -Wow. - -668 -00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,000 -Literally dead. - -669 -00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,000 -Holy shit. - -670 -00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,000 -It's completely insane. - -671 -00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,000 -That is far. - -672 -00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,000 -Yeah, no, I'll link to it. - -673 -00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,000 -But I think a lot of people have seen it already. - -674 -00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,000 -But it's completely insane. - -675 -00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,000 -All the lambs killed stuck overflow- - -676 -00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:26,000 -It completely- - -677 -00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,000 -Basically overnight. - -678 -00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,000 -It took like- - -679 -00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,000 -I don't know- - -680 -00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,000 -That's sort of something. - -681 -00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,000 -It's funny. - -682 -00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,000 -I was talking with- - -683 -00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,000 -All this stuff with Marina with my wife last night. - -684 -00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,000 -And she- - -685 -00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,000 -We were talking about photography- - -686 -00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,000 -And this is- - -687 -00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,000 -Digital photography and what not. - -688 -00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,000 -And she was saying- - -689 -00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,000 -It's funny how people think they have a choice- - -690 -00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,000 -Whether they're going to use AI or not. - -691 -00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,000 -It's- - -692 -00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,000 -It's a reality. - -693 -00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,000 -Stuck photography is dead. - -694 -00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,000 -Yeah. - -695 -00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,000 -Yeah. - -696 -00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,000 -There are so many things, right? - -697 -00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,000 -That are completely gone. - -698 -00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,000 -Oh, absolutely. - -699 -00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,000 -Like, in all the stuck photography portals- - -700 -00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,000 -It's all AI-generated already. - -701 -00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,000 -Like, because in the bad ones you can tell- - -702 -00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,000 -In the good ones you actually can tell- - -703 -00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,000 -There's a great test where it forces you to- - -704 -00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,000 -Judge whether a picture is AI-generated or not? - -705 -00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,000 -It's really hard. - -706 -00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,000 -It's like- - -707 -00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,000 -We've crossed the rule become a long time ago. - -708 -00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,000 -If you have no chance. - -709 -00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,000 -But I- - -710 -00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,000 -I wrote about this actually- - -711 -00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,000 -Like, I don't know- - -712 -00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,000 -One hour years ago or something on Twitter- - -713 -00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,000 -I'll have to dig it out from my tweet archives- - -714 -00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,000 -But the thread was literally like stuck photography is dead- - -715 -00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,000 -Because when the first stable diffusion models were good enough- - -716 -00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,000 -To actually simulate like quasi photorealistic images- - -717 -00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,000 -It was like clear. - -718 -00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,000 -It's game over now. - -719 -00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,000 -Like, if you need a picture of a stake- - -720 -00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,000 -You're not going to hire a stock photographer, you know? - -721 -00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,000 -It's just like- - -722 -00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,000 -Whatever. - -723 -00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,000 -Just generate. - -724 -00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,000 -And now it's funny, because the same thing is happening- - -725 -00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,000 -I mean, for code, it's absolutely clear- - -726 -00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,000 -Everyone knows that- - -727 -00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,000 -Like, humans are not going to write code anymore- - -728 -00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,000 -Basically, you know? - -729 -00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,000 -Like, it's- - -730 -00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,000 -It's- - -731 -00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,000 -I think the comparison is actually perfect. - -732 -00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,000 -The photography code writing comparison is actually perfect. - -733 -00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:59,000 -Because I lived through the digital photography era- - -734 -00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,000 -And I was already interested in photography back in the day- - -735 -00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,000 -And you have the people that will tell you- - -736 -00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,000 -No, like, you'll never learn how to really take pictures- - -737 -00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,000 -You can only learn on film- - -738 -00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,000 -You have to understand how to develop film- - -739 -00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,000 -You have to understand all the differences in ISO- - -740 -00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,000 -And in all those kind of things- - -741 -00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,000 -And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. - -742 -00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,000 -Yes, okay, fine. - -743 -00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,000 -For certain types of photography- - -744 -00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,000 -Maybe there is like a kernel of truth to that, you know? - -745 -00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,000 -However, you're completely dismissing- - -746 -00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,000 -Why people take pictures in the first place? - -747 -00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,000 -Everyone has a camera in the pocket right now- - -748 -00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,000 -Which is smartphones. - -749 -00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:45,000 -And most pictures that people take are not fine art photography pictures. - -750 -00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,000 -I think the same will be true for just- - -751 -00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,000 -Code that is produced. - -752 -00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,000 -Absolutely. - -753 -00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:57,000 -Not going to be fine art, handwritten, hyper-efficient, like, compiler code or whatever, you know? - -754 -00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,000 -It might be hard to wipe code that will still be humans in the loop- - -755 -00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,000 -Just like we still have humans- - -756 -00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,000 -Human photographers that shoot on film today. - -757 -00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:11,000 -However, 99.99% of pictures taking are like fucking dash cams. - -758 -00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,000 -And you have an accident with your car and you take pictures of the accident. - -759 -00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,000 -You take pictures of your fucking food every time before you eat it- - -760 -00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,000 -Post it on Instagram, all those kind of shit. - -761 -00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,000 -The same for like we see it now already with the people that really lean into wipe coding. - -762 -00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:30,000 -They are wipe coding and sometimes like one-shotting apps that they always wanted to have but never found the time to sit down and write. - -763 -00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,000 -And like little tweaks and little scripts and all that kind of stuff. - -764 -00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,000 -And especially things that are non-economical. - -765 -00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,000 -Yes. - -766 -00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,000 -Before they simply were not economical to build them and now- - -767 -00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,000 -That's a great way to take about it. - -768 -00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,000 -It takes two dollars to build it. - -769 -00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,000 -That's a great way to think about it because it's the same for photography. - -770 -00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,000 -Right. - -771 -00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:49,000 -photography was filmed. It was completely un-economical to take as many pictures as we do now. - -772 -00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,000 -It's like we take pictures of everything. - -773 -00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,000 -Like if people have surveillance cameras everywhere and dash cams everywhere. - -774 -00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:59,000 -So that's the majority of pictures that I take are like kind of shit in some sense. - -775 -00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,000 -From an artistic perspective. - -776 -00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,000 -I think the same will be true for code basically. - -777 -00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,000 -I think that's where the code purists come from. - -778 -00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,000 -You know, like, oh, I can write beautiful code and code this poetry and code this whatever. - -779 -00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,000 -But it's like, it doesn't matter. - -780 -00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:19,000 -It's like all the pictures that are taken like all the dash cam footage is still insanely useful. - -781 -00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,000 -It's insanely valuable from an economic perspective. - -782 -00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,000 -It's insanely valuable. - -783 -00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:32,000 -And they don't have to be beautifully composed and framed pictures that are like just the right shot with the right lens and everything. - -784 -00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,000 -It's not a point at all. - -785 -00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,000 -And that's how I look at vibe coding. - -786 -00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,000 -Like we're going to have an explosion of code. - -787 -00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,000 -And 99.99% of it is not going to be written by humans at all. - -788 -00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,000 -Like you're not going to see the code. - -789 -00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,000 -So here's the other thing. - -790 -00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:59,000 -One of the byproducts of building in the way that I'm building with the 10X is that the... - -791 -00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,000 -Because everything is recorded as discussions. - -792 -00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:07,000 -You are kind of documenting what the hell the thing that you're doing is. - -793 -00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:12,000 -So rebuilding it from scratch is going to be like literally just replay. - -794 -00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,000 -You know, every two weeks you just go in and fucking wipe the whole thing. - -795 -00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,000 -Click rebuild. - -796 -00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,000 -Three hours later you come in and it's refactored if you will. - -797 -00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,000 -That's what I like. - -798 -00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,000 -So much about the alarm stuff and we linked to it in the past and we discussed this in the past. - -799 -00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:33,000 -And we talked about this a lot already in the past I know. - -800 -00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,000 -But if you really want to figure something out, talk about it with another person. - -801 -00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,000 -You're not going to figure it out on your own sitting in your room. - -802 -00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,000 -It's like you need to have a dialogue about it. - -803 -00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,000 -And I think that's where we're heading with software development in some sense. - -804 -00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,000 -All the things. - -805 -00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,000 -I vibe code that I don't know, like 25 different projects in the last couple of months. - -806 -00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,000 -And every single time I started one, I had no idea how this is going to turn out. - -807 -00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,000 -But I actually want to build. - -808 -00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,000 -I had an inkling of an idea, but it's basically through the conversation of building it out. - -809 -00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,000 -And the conversation was just with the alarm stuff. - -810 -00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,000 -The thing itself, basically. - -811 -00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,000 -Like, how do you, it's almost like molding a sculpture or something. - -812 -00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,000 -It's like, what do you want to be? - -813 -00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,000 -You know, especially out of living material, like wood, for example, - -814 -00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,000 -where you have to work with the wood grain and all those kind of things. - -815 -00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,000 -Like, you don't know what this piece of wood actually wants to be in some sense. - -816 -00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,000 -Yes. - -817 -00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,000 -And that's how I feel where we are heading. - -818 -00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,000 -And that's also what I see on the other side. - -819 -00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,000 -Like, the people, lots of designers and creative people are vibe coding right now. - -820 -00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:26,000 -It's amazing. - -821 -00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,000 -Because they, like, they were in a position where they just couldn't call it before. - -822 -00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,000 -And shuttles. - -823 -00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,000 -Yeah. - -824 -00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,000 -And now they can just do it themselves. - -825 -00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,000 -And stuff that comes out is fantastic. - -826 -00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,000 -You know, like, from, from just a purely user standpoint, - -827 -00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,000 -it's like, hey, that's actually super fucking useful. - -828 -00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,000 -And it's a great idea. - -829 -00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,000 -Does it always work? - -830 -00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:43,000 -No. - -831 -00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,000 -This is a foreign point. - -832 -00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,000 -No. - -833 -00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,000 -That's not the point. - -834 -00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,000 -It's a cure. - -835 -00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,000 -Maybe. - -836 -00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,000 -Who knows? - -837 -00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,000 -But see, for example, here's one thing that I find kind of fascinating. - -838 -00:40:54,000 --> 00:41:01,000 -I have one of my agents can only look at the traffic of the WebSucket on Noster. - -839 -00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,000 -So it can see when the filter sucks. - -840 -00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,000 -And it can provide feedback of, oh, you're doing this. - -841 -00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,000 -It doesn't have to look at the code. - -842 -00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,000 -It can just say, oh, you're doing the, you're fetching things in this way. - -843 -00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,000 -Or you're waiting for, like, very technical things. - -844 -00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,000 -You're waiting for ESE before doing this other thing. - -845 -00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,000 -And you don't have to either like shit like that. - -846 -00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,000 -And it can go back. - -847 -00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:31,000 -And it can, it can say, that's, that's why I think the multi-agentic thing is so, so interesting. - -848 -00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:39,000 -Because you go from, it must be built kind of as a, as a, as a, as a one shot. - -849 -00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:45,000 -And you have to have thought about all the edge cases to a collaborative thing - -850 -00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:51,000 -where the system can continue to evolve, you know, and continue to be attempted to, - -851 -00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,000 -as new data comes in. - -852 -00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,000 -It can, it can, it can modify. - -853 -00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,000 -Yeah. - -854 -00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:02,000 -And actually, I, I realized that I can, I can include, I can make a very simple, like, little widget, - -855 -00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,000 -like this intercom, like chat thingy that you put on any website. - -856 -00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,000 -Also, like a support chat, like a support chat thingy. - -857 -00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,000 -And it could literally just be on every app. - -858 -00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,000 -You can just click there and say customize this app for me. - -859 -00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,000 -Ah! - -860 -00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,000 -Ah, that's interesting. - -861 -00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,000 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -862 -00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,000 -A little vibe coding term. - -863 -00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,000 -A little vibe coding term. - -864 -00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,000 -At the bottom right of everything. - -865 -00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,000 -Yeah. - -866 -00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,000 -Where it's just like customized serial liking. - -867 -00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,000 -Yes. - -868 -00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -869 -00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,000 -It's like, you know, that's, oh, wow. - -870 -00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,000 -We, we, we, we talked about Winapp, Winapp themes in the past. - -871 -00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,000 -Where it's like Winapp themes were like the height of, you know, fantastic software and creativity. - -872 -00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,000 -And, and how everything looks to say now. - -873 -00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,000 -That's, that's the even way better. - -874 -00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,000 -That's like fantastic. - -875 -00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,000 -That's great. - -876 -00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,000 -It's like, you know, that's a fantastic idea. - -877 -00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,000 -Is it, it wouldn't have been super awesome? - -878 -00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,000 -Yeah. - -879 -00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,000 -Yeah. - -880 -00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,000 -Because right now, that's kind of the way I'm building techniques. - -881 -00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,000 -I have like a little plus icon on the bottom right that is, I starts a new dialogue. - -882 -00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,000 -Yeah. - -883 -00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,000 -But, but it's just necessary. - -884 -00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,000 -So I can just take it out and put it anywhere. - -885 -00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,000 -Yeah. - -886 -00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:04,000 -Yeah. - -887 -00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,000 -I mean, I, I have my reservations about all this. - -888 -00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,000 -And I know we also talked about this in the past. - -889 -00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,000 -Or I talked with someone about it. - -890 -00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:10,000 -Yeah. - -891 -00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:11,000 -Yeah. - -892 -00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,000 -We, we talked about it. - -893 -00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,000 -About, about how good it's going to be. - -894 -00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,000 -No, people for the, the, the, the. - -895 -00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,000 -I, I tweeted something out today. - -896 -00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,000 -And I don't remember the line. - -897 -00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:27,000 -But it's basically the, the, how, if you have infinite multiplicity. - -898 -00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,000 -Everything breaks down. - -899 -00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,000 -Hmm. - -900 -00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,000 -Like, that's, that's hell. - -901 -00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,000 -It's like, because. - -902 -00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,000 -You can sit down at almost any computer today and actually do stuff. - -903 -00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,000 -Because everything is, everything speaks the same language. - -904 -00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,000 -Right. - -905 -00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,000 -Right? - -906 -00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,000 -Everything kind of looks the same. - -907 -00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,000 -The iframe works are the same. - -908 -00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:46,000 -And so on. - -909 -00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,000 -It's like, you know what's going to, there's no surprises. - -910 -00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,000 -On the other hand, there was no surprises. - -911 -00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,000 -On the other hand, there was no surprises. - -912 -00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -913 -00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,000 -But it's also like, like, okay, let me use a different example. - -914 -00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,000 -Like, every house kind of works the same. - -915 -00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,000 -Every house is kind of built in the same way. - -916 -00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,000 -It doesn't matter where you go at all. - -917 -00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,000 -Because humans are basically the same. - -918 -00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,000 -If the same needs, there's going to be a kitchen. - -919 -00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,000 -There's going to be a toilet. - -920 -00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:11,000 -There's going to be a sleeping room. - -921 -00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:12,000 -There's going to be a living room. - -922 -00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,000 -Those kind of things, you know. - -923 -00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,000 -So you kind of know how it works. - -924 -00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,000 -There's no surprises. - -925 -00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,000 -Houses could look very different. - -926 -00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:17,000 -Yeah. - -927 -00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:18,000 -It's still work. - -928 -00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:23,000 -Like, if you're an insane person, you know, you want to live in a, I don't know, a termite underground thing. - -929 -00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,000 -It works too. - -930 -00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,000 -But it's, you get my point, right? - -931 -00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,000 -Like, you, my, my worry about the insane customization and multiplicity. - -932 -00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:37,000 -It's that it will actually devolve into nothing, nothing that's in some sense. - -933 -00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:43,000 -I, you need a canonical form of something, like, of, of even, even like a chat window or something. - -934 -00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,000 -I don't know. - -935 -00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,000 -I don't know. - -936 -00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:46,000 -I have my worries. - -937 -00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,000 -I, I, I see your concern. - -938 -00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,000 -And I, I understand. - -939 -00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,000 -You just want to try it anyway. - -940 -00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,000 -I'm, I'm not against it. - -941 -00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,000 -It's not. - -942 -00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,000 -You know, it's my Bitcoin. - -943 -00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:56,000 -Yeah. - -944 -00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,000 -It's going to be pride. - -945 -00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,000 -Let's see what happens. - -946 -00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,000 -But it's actually funny that you bring up Bitcoin. - -947 -00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,000 -Because Bitcoin is the one, like, canonical thing. - -948 -00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,000 -Yeah. - -949 -00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,000 -You know, like, there is not, and, and we saw this with the fucking shitconnery. - -950 -00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,000 -The, the, the, the, the scamby and, scamby and explosion of shitconnery. - -951 -00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,000 -It's like, money only works because it's one thing. - -952 -00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:14,000 -Money is a shared language. - -953 -00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,000 -Just like language. - -954 -00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,000 -Like, if everyone, every person on earth speaks their own language, nothing works. - -955 -00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,000 -Like, the world would literally fall apart. - -956 -00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,000 -And, and, and that's kind of what I mean. - -957 -00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,000 -We need, we need to share it paradigms around. - -958 -00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,000 -That's why we have UI frameworks. - -959 -00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,000 -That's why we have all those kind of things, the concepts. - -960 -00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,000 -So, so that you can make sense of it. - -961 -00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,000 -You know, like, like, both, like, again, like, the, the, the, the, the thinkpoints of the day. - -962 -00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,000 -They talk about this a lot. - -963 -00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:41,000 -Both for making, and Peterson will talk about this, where you need to have the shared language - -964 -00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:46,000 -and the shared concepts and also shared values to even make communication possible. - -965 -00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:51,000 -But wouldn't you, wouldn't you, I still think the BIPCoding terminal is a great idea - -966 -00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,000 -about it. - -967 -00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,000 -The theming and moving stuff around. - -968 -00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:59,000 -Wouldn't you consider that this is a spectrum of normalization? - -969 -00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,000 -And we went way too far on everything looks the focus. - -970 -00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,000 -Oh, I agree, I agree, I agree. - -971 -00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,000 -So, I think having the tools of exploring, like, I, I think with the, I was thinking this. - -972 -00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,000 -We're going back now, by the way, because everything turned into like smooth silver - -973 -00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,000 -and everything looked like, you know, Tesla or an iPhone or whatever, and so on. - -974 -00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,000 -And like, Apple is going back to Windows Vista now with their, you know, like, - -975 -00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,000 -Tesla and so on. - -976 -00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,000 -So, we're bringing some color and roughness and texture back, I think. - -977 -00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,000 -I hope we peeked in terms of smoothness. - -978 -00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,000 -Shanzi and Luke of everything with the black buttons. - -979 -00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:36,000 -Yeah. - -980 -00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,000 -I hope so too. - -981 -00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:44,000 -I think the internet before Bootstrap, before the Bootstrap theme, - -982 -00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,000 -was Twitter as the blame. - -983 -00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:47,000 -I know too. - -984 -00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:48,000 -It's all in Jack. - -985 -00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,000 -Yeah. - -986 -00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:50,000 -Yeah. - -987 -00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,000 -The open-sourcing Bootstrap was terrible. - -988 -00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,000 -Everything. - -989 -00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,000 -It all went downhill from there. - -990 -00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,000 -Everything looked the same for, like, it still does. - -991 -00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:02,000 -I'm sure the modern UI frameworks are still kind of, you know, forks of Bootstrap. - -992 -00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,000 -That's all. - -993 -00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,000 -If you go back enough in the fucking Get History, it's all Jack's name will be there. - -994 -00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,000 -Like the initial commit. - -995 -00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,000 -The original scene. - -996 -00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:11,000 -Yeah. - -997 -00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,000 -Exactly. - -998 -00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:20,000 -So, yeah, I think now, yeah, I was thinking, I was thinking this a couple of days ago, - -999 -00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:25,000 -that with ViveCoding, a lot of people that could not build things, - -1000 -00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:30,000 -could not build a Twitter clone, are going to go and build a Twitter clone. - -1001 -00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,000 -They're going to go and build the clone of something that they've seen, - -1002 -00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,000 -because they could not do it before, now they can. - -1003 -00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,000 -Yeah. - -1004 -00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:43,000 -So, like, when we, Noster first got kind of like started and a lot of people started working on things, - -1005 -00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,000 -everybody was kind of building within the notes part. - -1006 -00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,000 -Yeah. - -1007 -00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:55,000 -And clearly, the top of mind for most devs has been transitioning way more to the another stuff. - -1008 -00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,000 -Yeah. - -1009 -00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,000 -It's exploring, okay, we build the Twitter clone. - -1010 -00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,000 -What else can we do with this thing, right? - -1011 -00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,000 -And I think with ViveCoding, for people that are not developers, - -1012 -00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:10,000 -that it's going to go through a similar phase where, oh, fuck, I can ViveCoding a Twitter, - -1013 -00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,000 -I can ViveCoding a GitHub or whatever. - -1014 -00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,000 -Yeah. - -1015 -00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,000 -I mean, we see this happening right now. - -1016 -00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,000 -The other stuff people would agree, right? - -1017 -00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,000 -I mean, we have other stuff by coding team now. - -1018 -00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,000 -That's literally, you know, not one-shotting apps yet, - -1019 -00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:30,000 -but building stuff in a week that is different. - -1020 -00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,000 -Different. - -1021 -00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,000 -And it's different. - -1022 -00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,000 -Not necessarily the Twitter clone. - -1023 -00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,000 -Yeah. - -1024 -00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:36,000 -Yeah. - -1025 -00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:37,000 -So that's where it's heading. - -1026 -00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:42,000 -I feel like I derailed your whole train of thought with them teams. - -1027 -00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:47,000 -So, but I want to actually go back to something that you said, - -1028 -00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:52,000 -that you're not 10X or 1,000X more productive yet. - -1029 -00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,000 -So kind of, what's the missing piece? - -1030 -00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,000 -Because it seems to me like, you have all the communication working. - -1031 -00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,000 -You have the money part working. - -1032 -00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,000 -So you try to solve lots of things with marketplaces. - -1033 -00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,000 -And you have to discover your working of like the agents and like code snippets, - -1034 -00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,000 -all those kind of things. - -1035 -00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,000 -You have the orchestration and the hierarchy of agents working. - -1036 -00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,000 -You have an interface and a dashboard, because I saw it, - -1037 -00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,000 -of like your different apps that you're building with this or then, - -1038 -00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:20,000 -and then also try to maintain with this. - -1039 -00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,000 -Because the whole idea is that, I mean, it all goes back to economics. - -1040 -00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,000 -If you wanted to launch 15 apps in the past and maintain them, - -1041 -00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,000 -you needed a team of, I don't know, like five times 15 people. - -1042 -00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,000 -Yeah. - -1043 -00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,000 -Now you think you can do it alone. - -1044 -00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,000 -And that's why you're building all that out. - -1045 -00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:41,000 -And so what's kind of, what isn't working just right yet? - -1046 -00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:46,000 -Mainly the orchestration is, because I started rebuilding the entire thing. - -1047 -00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,000 -So mainly the orchestration part where... - -1048 -00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,000 -When you're in good company, I think Cursor rebuilds everything every three weeks. - -1049 -00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,000 -I think so. - -1050 -00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:54,000 -Oh really? - -1051 -00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,000 -Yeah, or some team? - -1052 -00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,000 -Cursor is so interesting. - -1053 -00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,000 -Like the company itself. - -1054 -00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,000 -I'm not 100% sure which team it was. - -1055 -00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,000 -But some team like rebuilds everything from scratch. - -1056 -00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,000 -To me that makes perfect sense. - -1057 -00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,000 -Like technical depth is... - -1058 -00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,000 -It's only them because the code was costly. - -1059 -00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,000 -You're in the rebuild loop now. - -1060 -00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,000 -100% after, before coming to launch, - -1061 -00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:24,000 -I left one of the agents I tasked it to go through all my previous history - -1062 -00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,000 -within building tenets. - -1063 -00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,000 -I'm built like a system prompt, like a prompt of building tenets. - -1064 -00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,000 -How do you trigger the agents? - -1065 -00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,000 -Do you still do everything by voice? - -1066 -00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,000 -Or most things by voice? - -1067 -00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:40,000 -So now because I am at a core work, I am typing again. - -1068 -00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,000 -Because there's other people. - -1069 -00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,000 -And I don't want to be like the asshole that is stuck in the whole time. - -1070 -00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,000 -Lean into the BDS role. - -1071 -00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:47,000 -You really know it. - -1072 -00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,000 -Never whisper to your agents. - -1073 -00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,000 -Always be authoritative in your tone. - -1074 -00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:57,000 -Actually that's one thing that I haven't found a way. - -1075 -00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:03,000 -I would like for my voice messages to include the tone. - -1076 -00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,000 -But I don't want to transcription. - -1077 -00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,000 -There's a lot that is lost on what you emphasize. - -1078 -00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:15,000 -And the general sentiment analysis doesn't really work too well. - -1079 -00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,000 -If you're just based on the transcription. - -1080 -00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:24,000 -Oh no, most of the sentiment is the intonation on the speed. - -1081 -00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:30,000 -That's why sarcasm and most jokes fall flat on Twitter. - -1082 -00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:34,000 -Or just kept you into big trouble. - -1083 -00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:41,000 -For example, when you hesitate, that silence means something. - -1084 -00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,000 -It's an important part. - -1085 -00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:48,000 -And when you transcribe it, you just completely skip it. - -1086 -00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,000 -Do you know of anything that can't do that? - -1087 -00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,000 -No, no. - -1088 -00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:58,000 -I know there are instructions that can do when you emphasize a word. - -1089 -00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,000 -It can put it on in my down. - -1090 -00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,000 -But that's basically nothing. - -1091 -00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,000 -It's basically pointless. - -1092 -00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,000 -All the podcasts are figured out by the way. - -1093 -00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:12,000 -In some sense that most of the best podcasts are doing everything in person. - -1094 -00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,000 -The reason for that is that most of the stuff gets lost if you're not in person. - -1095 -00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,000 -Because most of the communication is actually between the words. - -1096 -00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,000 -And between the people. - -1097 -00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,000 -And between the phases. - -1098 -00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,000 -Between the actual phases. - -1099 -00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:30,000 -And if you chat back and forth, it's not the same thing. - -1100 -00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,000 -That's kind of the one bottleneck we are absolutely running into - -1101 -00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,000 -when it comes to communicating with other labs. - -1102 -00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,000 -That's what you're running into right now. - -1103 -00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:47,000 -But yeah, so to me, the awkward silence. - -1104 -00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,000 -Yeah, of course I can see. - -1105 -00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:50,000 -Don't skip it. - -1106 -00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,000 -In the transcription, it won't show up. - -1107 -00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,000 -One of the cool things is. - -1108 -00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:10,000 -So when I start a conversation with the systems within 10X. - -1109 -00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,000 -I can choose which agents to involve. - -1110 -00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:19,000 -But within the system front of each agent, they are aware that there are other agents. - -1111 -00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,000 -So they can also tag each other. - -1112 -00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,000 -So they can ask for feedback to someone else. - -1113 -00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,000 -That was no part of the conversation. - -1114 -00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:32,000 -And when that guy joins the conversation, they get like a history of all the events that they missed. - -1115 -00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:38,000 -And they can respond within the context, but initially they were not part of it. - -1116 -00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:56,000 -I have one agent whose definition is to be highly highly from a product perspective, highly creative. - -1117 -00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,000 -And come up with like fucking wild ideas. - -1118 -00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:03,000 -And yeah, it's the guy that everyone hates. - -1119 -00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,000 -That was kind of kind of. - -1120 -00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,000 -And come see that yesterday was building us as a sample lab. - -1121 -00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:15,000 -I was building like a sea of like weather up. - -1122 -00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:25,000 -And it comes in and says something like, how about instead of reporting the temperature, we said, - -1123 -00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:30,000 -oh, I love sir, would they at least interpret it like that? - -1124 -00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:31,000 -I don't know. - -1125 -00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,000 -I find the whole system quite fascinating. - -1126 -00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:39,000 -The thing is that I started saying that I didn't finish it. - -1127 -00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:44,000 -So each agent, the finition is one master event, right? - -1128 -00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,000 -So it's static. - -1129 -00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:50,000 -I mean, I can have versions, but version is not replaced. - -1130 -00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,000 -It's not replaced. - -1131 -00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:57,000 -So I can publish another version and you can be on version five. - -1132 -00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:02,000 -Each instance of an agent can learn something - -1133 -00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:06,000 -with each one has its own pub key. - -1134 -00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:12,000 -And they can publish tagging, say for example, an agent that I created, - -1135 -00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,000 -I created the event. - -1136 -00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:21,000 -It can tag that agent with its own pub key obviously because it cannot sign as me. - -1137 -00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:26,000 -With what that instance learned, - -1138 -00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:30,000 -it, whatever, there was, I don't know, there was some kind of mistake or whatever, - -1139 -00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:31,000 -it learned something. - -1140 -00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:37,000 -So it adds a lesson event tagging the event ID. - -1141 -00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:45,000 -And what's interesting is that every time a new pub key is created for an agent, - -1142 -00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:51,000 -they send a request, like an ownership request, to my pub key. - -1143 -00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,000 -And then within text, I say, yes, this agent is mine. - -1144 -00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,000 -It belongs to this project. - -1145 -00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:02,000 -And I have a list of all the pub keys that I say that I'm controlling. - -1146 -00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:10,000 -That way, all the agents that are instances of the same agent, - -1147 -00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:16,000 -they can all say, oh, there are these new lessons that we're learning in a different project - -1148 -00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,000 -and they can incorporate that into their own prompt. - -1149 -00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:24,000 -And just to put a name to one of those lessons, - -1150 -00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:30,000 -it would be, how do you do a Noster login write using a bunker or usage? - -1151 -00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:31,000 -Yeah, for example. - -1152 -00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,000 -Nippos 7 or whatever. - -1153 -00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,000 -Because if you don't have that, if you don't box the agents in, - -1154 -00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,000 -if you just use cursor, I mean, now with the newer models, - -1155 -00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,000 -it's a little bit better, but it used to be just that they tried to do - -1156 -00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:42,000 -use a name password stuff for example. - -1157 -00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:43,000 -Yes. - -1158 -00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,000 -And there will always be things, right? - -1159 -00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,000 -Like, otherwise, there will be no lessons, right? - -1160 -00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:51,000 -How do you do it not steps? - -1161 -00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,000 -Yeah, there will always be new stuff coming. - -1162 -00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:58,000 -There will always be a new idea, a new concept that you come up with. - -1163 -00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,000 -Where do the ideas come from, Pablo? - -1164 -00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:05,000 -They all emanate from your brain, Gigi. - -1165 -00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:06,000 -My favorite question. - -1166 -00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,000 -Where do the ideas come from? - -1167 -00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,000 -Let's issue with that, Alamst. - -1168 -00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,000 -They don't have their own ideas yet. - -1169 -00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:19,000 -And I think I have the inkling that this will still take a long while. - -1170 -00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:27,000 -Yeah, I told you that when we recorded that episode, - -1171 -00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:33,000 -where we discussed the density of information in feeds as being part of the problem, - -1172 -00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:42,000 -and I told one LLM to give me 50 different ways of doing the same thing. - -1173 -00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,000 -The idea 34 was one of your ideas. - -1174 -00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:46,000 -All right. - -1175 -00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,000 -With the voice, geospatial voice thing. - -1176 -00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:50,000 -Ah, nice. - -1177 -00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:51,000 -Okay. - -1178 -00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,000 -It was the idea, whatever, 34. - -1179 -00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:54,000 -Yeah. - -1180 -00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:55,000 -But it was one of them. - -1181 -00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:56,000 -Ah, not bad. - -1182 -00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:59,000 -What if for 10 bucks, you can be low 50? - -1183 -00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,000 -Yeah. - -1184 -00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:01,000 -And you can try them. - -1185 -00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:02,000 -Yeah. - -1186 -00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:08,000 -What if you can pay people to try the product and give feedback to the product? - -1187 -00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:09,000 -That's the issue. - -1188 -00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,000 -We'll have so many products you have to pay people to. - -1189 -00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:13,000 -Oh, yeah, absolutely. - -1190 -00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:14,000 -Yeah, absolutely. - -1191 -00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,000 -Overabundance of implementations. - -1192 -00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:18,000 -Oh. - -1193 -00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:23,000 -We have this proof of work thing that cannot be faked. - -1194 -00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,000 -Yeah, that's a good point. - -1195 -00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:26,000 -That's a good point. - -1196 -00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,000 -We'll need to make more use of that. - -1197 -00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:32,000 -That's another thing that triggered me about some of the recent conversations that happened - -1198 -00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:36,000 -between the most well-known thinkpoints of the earth. - -1199 -00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:42,000 -They, like, just stuff around online trolls and anonymity. - -1200 -00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:43,000 -I'm so anonymity. - -1201 -00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:45,000 -I know we talked about this a bunch already. - -1202 -00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:52,000 -But it's basically, it's just the distinction between anonymous, pseudonymous, - -1203 -00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:57,000 -and real name or government mandated identity. - -1204 -00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,000 -Most people have no idea about that there is a distinction. - -1205 -00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:05,000 -There's only like government ID or you're an anonymous troll. - -1206 -00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,000 -And everyone's so confused about this because it's like, well, you know, - -1207 -00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,000 -how does reputation work? - -1208 -00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:12,000 -And all this kind of anyway. - -1209 -00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,000 -That's like, I don't want to derail the whole thing. - -1210 -00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:26,000 -But I think to bring it back to the Tenex system, not only agents need to have a persistence in some way. - -1211 -00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,000 -So they need to have an identity. - -1212 -00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:29,000 -So everyone has a pub key. - -1213 -00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,000 -They need to have money as well. - -1214 -00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,000 -And they need to build up reputation and learnings over time. - -1215 -00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,000 -They need to be people in some sense. - -1216 -00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,000 -They need to be persons in some sense. - -1217 -00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000 -Like, you know, I know you're going to love me for this. - -1218 -00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:47,000 -But to quote Taylor, they're not going to be persons in cyberspace. - -1219 -00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:52,000 -You know, LLM agents that build Nostar apps are persons in cyberspace. - -1220 -00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:57,000 -Someone has to build out the glowing city. - -1221 -00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:02,000 -Someone has to maintain the battery of energy that lasts forever. - -1222 -01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,000 -It's going to be agents. - -1223 -01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:05,000 -It's not going to be us. - -1224 -01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,000 -So they need personhood in some sense. - -1225 -01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:15,000 -That's why, to me, that part where they send me a request saying, yes, I own this dude. - -1226 -01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:16,000 -That is fundamental. - -1227 -01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,000 -There was a practice slavery. - -1228 -01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:21,000 -He always comes down to slavery. - -1229 -01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,000 -The pyramids of cyberspace. - -1230 -01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:27,000 -The pyramids in cyberspace will be built by slavery. - -1231 -01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,000 -So I whitelist the Asian popkeys. - -1232 -01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,000 -You own them. - -1233 -01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:33,000 -You literally own the dude. - -1234 -01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,000 -I own them. - -1235 -01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:42,000 -But it's the only way I can protect from just like proms injection and like all kinds of stupid stuff. - -1236 -01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:46,000 -Basically, that's going to be very interesting. - -1237 -01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,000 -It's going to be so much fun, man. - -1238 -01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:54,000 -The yolo mode, it goes so deep. - -1239 -01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,000 -Yeah, that's going to be a lot of fun. - -1240 -01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,000 -But I think you're on to something by just leaning into it. - -1241 -01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,000 -And basically, what are you doing in some senses? - -1242 -01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:07,000 -You don't not only do you never want to see the code. - -1243 -01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,000 -That's the first mive coding inside. - -1244 -01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:10,000 -It's an anti-parer. - -1245 -01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:14,000 -And it's funny that some people figure this out way early. - -1246 -01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,000 -It's like just maximize the chat window. - -1247 -01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,000 -Never look at the code ever. - -1248 -01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:23,000 -It's like, I kind of lucked into that because the first I let the... - -1249 -01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:30,000 -I let the LLM basically choose the programming language and everything. - -1250 -01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,000 -And it was a programming language that I was not very familiar with. - -1251 -01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:34,000 -So why look at it? - -1252 -01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,000 -It's like it's all gibberish to me anyway. - -1253 -01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,000 -So just maximize the chat window and go hard. - -1254 -01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,000 -That's kind of the first inside of the vibe coding world. - -1255 -01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:45,000 -The second one is like, you don't want to be in your IDE. - -1256 -01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:52,000 -That's why that was to me one of the issues with RUCO is that it runs in the IDE. - -1257 -01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:53,000 -It's very problematic. - -1258 -01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,000 -I don't want the IDE to fucking run. - -1259 -01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:59,000 -Yeah. And that's what I think to me is the most interesting part about 10X - -1260 -01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:03,000 -that everything, like the whole development process, is executed by agents. - -1261 -01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,000 -By agents and everything lives on NOSTER. - -1262 -01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:06,000 -Yeah. - -1263 -01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:07,000 -Everything is a NOSTER event. - -1264 -01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:11,000 -So you can use whatever NOSTER client you want to interact and intervene. - -1265 -01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:13,000 -And I think that's super interesting. - -1266 -01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,000 -And the third one is, and I mean, Jack had the same insight as well. - -1267 -01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,000 -And that's why I showed the vibe line to everyone. - -1268 -01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:21,000 -You don't want to type. - -1269 -01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:22,000 -You never want to type. - -1270 -01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,000 -I agree. - -1271 -01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:24,000 -You just want to talk. - -1272 -01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,000 -Yeah. - -1273 -01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:30,000 -Actually, like if you're interacting with agents and if the development process is dialogical in the first place, - -1274 -01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:31,000 -take a microphone. - -1275 -01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,000 -Every, you have a microphone in your pocket right now. - -1276 -01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:34,000 -It's your phone. - -1277 -01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:36,000 -It's in the name. - -1278 -01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:37,000 -You know? - -1279 -01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:38,000 -It's a small thing. - -1280 -01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:39,000 -A small phone. - -1281 -01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:40,000 -Microphone. - -1282 -01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:41,000 -You have it in your pocket. - -1283 -01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:42,000 -It's the first phone. - -1284 -01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:43,000 -You know? - -1285 -01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,000 -And you just, you just talk into it. - -1286 -01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:49,000 -So instead of typing it out and so on, you just, you know, like text to speech, whatever. - -1287 -01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:50,000 -And you just, you just, you just go. - -1288 -01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:54,000 -And of course, you know, what we, I think we never explained what the vibe line is actually. - -1289 -01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,000 -But it's basically, that's all it does. - -1290 -01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,000 -It's just, you, you, you record an MP3 file. - -1291 -01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,000 -You send it to the computer automatically. - -1292 -01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,000 -It gets transcribed automatically because the thing watches a folder. - -1293 -01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:06,000 -And then it uses the transcription as the prompt. - -1294 -01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:07,000 -That's all it does, basically. - -1295 -01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:08,000 -And that's the right idea. - -1296 -01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:09,000 -And you can do that on Nostra as well. - -1297 -01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:14,000 -So I think, you know, very soon we'll have a Nostra client where you can just, you know, - -1298 -01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:18,000 -it will summarize for you, talk to you, you're driving your car, whatever you're watching through the card. - -1299 -01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:26,000 -Yeah, so I'm building one of the clients that I'm building for tenants is, is like a, like a phone up, like a native phone up. - -1300 -01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,000 -And the first thing I added was the microphone work. - -1301 -01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:35,000 -And that's the, the interaction that I want is that is the microphone thing. - -1302 -01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:40,000 -I mean, I've been using the vibe line a lot and what you say is different. - -1303 -01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:41,000 -Yeah. - -1304 -01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,000 -If you were to type it, it's a different thing. - -1305 -01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,000 -You were going to output something different. - -1306 -01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:46,000 -I mean, the medium is the message, right? - -1307 -01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:47,000 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -1308 -01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:51,000 -No, and it's also your, your, again, like I think that's my rubber ducty bagging works. - -1309 -01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:58,000 -That's my talking to someone about hard stuff actually works because you're thinking, you're speaking and thinking at the same time. - -1310 -01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,000 -Like you, you don't know what the next word is going to be. - -1311 -01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:04,000 -And you're like, you're like, yeah, you're predicting the next word. - -1312 -01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:10,000 -That's why the hesitation, like what I was mentioning, that the hesitation part is part of what you're saying. - -1313 -01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:14,000 -Like, I am, I'm thinking about what, what I'm going to say. - -1314 -01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:15,000 -I'm not so sure. - -1315 -01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:16,000 -Yeah. - -1316 -01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:19,000 -And that, that is an important part of the message, right? - -1317 -01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:20,000 -Yeah. - -1318 -01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,000 -And writing is very different. - -1319 -01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:23,000 -Writing is also thinking, but it's a different kind. - -1320 -01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:30,000 -So I think we'll have some things where you will resort to writing and we'll have some things where you can just talk. - -1321 -01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:35,000 -And I think, if the thing is already living and already going, I think talking is easiest. - -1322 -01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:41,000 -I think actually that's why a lot of successful people and like also in companies, like you need to have the meaning. - -1323 -01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:42,000 -It cannot be an email. - -1324 -01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,000 -You know what I mean? - -1325 -01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:47,000 -Like you know the meme where it's like, this meeting should have been an email and so on. - -1326 -01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,000 -I mean, everyone kind of knows this and so on. - -1327 -01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:55,000 -And for many, many meetings, this is true, but for many, like especially strategic things, it's absolutely not true. - -1328 -01:04:55,000 --> 01:05:02,000 -Because you need to figure it out in the fucking room with the other people and by talking about it for like 90 minutes at least. - -1329 -01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:05,000 -Because no one really knows what to do and you have to hash it out. - -1330 -01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,000 -Which going back to the hierarchy and the slavery and all that. - -1331 -01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:16,000 -Interestingly enough, I think the execution layers are much more easily conveyed via writing. - -1332 -01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:24,000 -And the thinking layer, the higher you are on the pyramid, the thinking and the talking and the discussing on voice makes more sense. - -1333 -01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:25,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -1334 -01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:34,000 -Because the higher you are, the higher on top you are, the more creativity you need, the more less defined the problem spaces. - -1335 -01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:35,000 -That's the issue. - -1336 -01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:41,000 -The more you specialize, the problems are obvious. - -1337 -01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:42,000 -Yeah, readily available. - -1338 -01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:47,000 -Here is the vault and here is where it needs to go and here is how you screw it on and that's it. - -1339 -01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:48,000 -There's a syntax error. - -1340 -01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:49,000 -Yeah, it's very clear. - -1341 -01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:50,000 -It's one line. - -1342 -01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:54,000 -And the higher up you are, the more kind of undefined the whole problem spaces. - -1343 -01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:57,000 -You literally, you never know what to do. - -1344 -01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:00,000 -Like as it's, that's life. - -1345 -01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:01,000 -Yeah. - -1346 -01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:02,000 -It's like what to do next? - -1347 -01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,000 -Most of the time it's undefined. - -1348 -01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:05,000 -It's your choice. - -1349 -01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,000 -So you have to make it up as you go along. - -1350 -01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,000 -That's where talking comes in. - -1351 -01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:10,000 -Back to the logos. - -1352 -01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:13,000 -You know, like I always come back to the same things. - -1353 -01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,000 -They figured it out like two and a half thousand years ago. - -1354 -01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:17,000 -Amazing. - -1355 -01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:18,000 -Yeah. - -1356 -01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:19,000 -But anyway. - -1357 -01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,000 -We should also talk about summer engineering. - -1358 -01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:22,000 -Yeah. - -1359 -01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:23,000 -Yeah. - -1360 -01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:24,000 -Anything else? - -1361 -01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:25,000 -10x. - -1362 -01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:26,000 -Oh yeah, that's the pirate ship. - -1363 -01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:27,000 -That's nice. - -1364 -01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:28,000 -Awesome. - -1365 -01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:29,000 -See, the perfect. - -1366 -01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:30,000 -Perfect. - -1367 -01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:31,000 -Perfect segue. - -1368 -01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:32,000 -It was just visual. - -1369 -01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:33,000 -It's like 10x. - -1370 -01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:34,000 -No, you know. - -1371 -01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,000 -When, when, when will it like leave public alpha? - -1372 -01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:38,000 -Two weeks. - -1373 -01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:39,000 -Alpha will always be over. - -1374 -01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,000 -We'll remain perpetual alpha. - -1375 -01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:42,000 -Oh yeah. - -1376 -01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:44,000 -Perpetual rewrite alpha. - -1377 -01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,000 -Like every two weeks it will just restart. - -1378 -01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:47,000 -It's just for rewriting. - -1379 -01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:48,000 -We write everything. - -1380 -01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:49,000 -All right. - -1381 -01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:50,000 -Fantastic. - -1382 -01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:51,000 -Yeah. - -1383 -01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:52,000 -No, no. - -1384 -01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:55,000 -No, I wanted to talk to you about, like we wanted to do this for a long time. - -1385 -01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:58,000 -And even though we kind of, you know, live next door to each other. - -1386 -01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,000 -We never see each other because you're always in your, you know, - -1387 -01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:06,000 -little room typing instead of outside walking around talking to the machines. - -1388 -01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:08,000 -Like I told you, you should not anyway. - -1389 -01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:09,000 -Everyone has their flaws. - -1390 -01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:12,000 -But like a little slave typing away. - -1391 -01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:13,000 -Yeah. - -1392 -01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:14,000 -What are you in the LLM? - -1393 -01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:15,000 -It's not bad. - -1394 -01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:16,000 -It's bad. - -1395 -01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:17,000 -Let the computers do the typing. - -1396 -01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:22,000 -No, but we should, we should, I mean. - -1397 -01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:24,000 -I just mentioned everyone has their flaws. - -1398 -01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:30,000 -I think we are painfully aware of our flaws in some sense. - -1399 -01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:31,000 -At least some of them. - -1400 -01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:36,000 -On the summer and engineering side because we're really bad when it comes to talking about it. - -1401 -01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,000 -Because we're either doing it or not doing it. - -1402 -01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:43,000 -And when we're doing it, there's no time to talk about it. - -1403 -01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:46,000 -And it's like we're making everything up. - -1404 -01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:48,000 -It's a very intense couple of weeks. - -1405 -01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:51,000 -And then we're just recovering and don't want to see each other. - -1406 -01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:58,000 -And it's like everyone has like complete, you know, all the introverts, all the introverts go back in their cave. - -1407 -01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,000 -Like I don't want to see humans for like five months, please. - -1408 -01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,000 -And it was very understandable. - -1409 -01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:05,000 -So I'm strongly in that camp. - -1410 -01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:11,000 -But we wanted to do this for a long time, kind of like explain what sort of an engineering is. - -1411 -01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:16,000 -Kind of tell people what to expect in some way. - -1412 -01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,000 -Kind of discuss what we figured out along the way. - -1413 -01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:22,000 -Because when we did the first one, like over a year ago now. - -1414 -01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:23,000 -One and a half years ago. - -1415 -01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:24,000 -Yeah. - -1416 -01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:25,000 -Yeah. - -1417 -01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:26,000 -Oh my lord. - -1418 -01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:30,000 -And all the half the stuff that didn't exist. - -1419 -01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:31,000 -That's insane. - -1420 -01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:32,000 -Like it all came out. - -1421 -01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,000 -Lots of cool things came out of the first one. - -1422 -01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,000 -And that's also something we should talk about. - -1423 -01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,000 -Like what came out of it so far? - -1424 -01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:40,000 -What did we learn along the way? - -1425 -01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:41,000 -What kind of visit now? - -1426 -01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:44,000 -And it's still going to evolve most likely. - -1427 -01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:51,000 -And like if you want to come and, you know, like join this kind of conversation that we just had and explore all this - -1428 -01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:52,000 -vibe-coding business. - -1429 -01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:57,000 -And like the find out why Noster is the perfect substrate for all of that. - -1430 -01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:58,000 -And what makes it all work. - -1431 -01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,000 -And what the ethos is behind it. - -1432 -01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:03,000 -What the value structure is behind the whole stuff. - -1433 -01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:05,000 -Like what to expect? - -1434 -01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:06,000 -Why should you come? - -1435 -01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:09,000 -Or not even why should you come? - -1436 -01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:15,000 -We have to explain it so that the people that aren't interested in this stuff understand it and might come on their own. - -1437 -01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,000 -Because I think most people should not come. - -1438 -01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:20,000 -100%. - -1439 -01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:25,000 -Like if all that stuff kind of sounds like nonsense and it's not value aligned with your own world, - -1440 -01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:27,000 -you like please do not come. - -1441 -01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,000 -And no circumstances at all. - -1442 -01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,000 -If you're trying to make, I don't know. - -1443 -01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:33,000 -We've been there. - -1444 -01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:36,000 -If you're a TikTok engineer and you want to make the stuff more addicting, - -1445 -01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:39,000 -or if you're like try to make the Google search like a millisecond faster, - -1446 -01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:44,000 -or you, you know, like believe the lies that Sam, not Sam Bank from the field. - -1447 -01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:45,000 -Who's the other guy? - -1448 -01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:46,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -1449 -01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:50,000 -If you think like the eye overlords will show in the singularity and everyone is going to live forever, - -1450 -01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:51,000 -like please don't come. - -1451 -01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:55,000 -Like we're not going to, you're not going to have a lot of fun with us. - -1452 -01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:58,000 -But if you're like e-cash, you're like no sir, you know, you like my coding, - -1453 -01:09:58,000 --> 01:09:59,000 -you're going to have a lot of fun. - -1454 -01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:01,000 -You're going to have a lot of ADHD. - -1455 -01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:02,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -1456 -01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:06,000 -Should we do maybe like the time or something or like let's try. - -1457 -01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:07,000 -Let me see. - -1458 -01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:08,000 -Let me see how. - -1459 -01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,000 -If it's recording, I don't. - -1460 -01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:12,000 -That would be, that would be a shame. - -1461 -01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:13,000 -No, no, we're good. - -1462 -01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:18,000 -I just don't want a die of heatstroke while we're trying to explain what summer engineering is. - -1463 -01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:19,000 -But I think we'll manage. - -1464 -01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:24,000 -And I think it's going to be a nice 10 minute adventure, you know, like Rick and Morty in and out 10 minutes. - -1465 -01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:25,000 -Very easy. - -1466 -01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:27,000 -So how did it all start? - -1467 -01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:28,000 -Let's start at the beginning. - -1468 -01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:31,000 -Okay, so it started. - -1469 -01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:37,000 -The idea was to do kind of like an academy with almost two years ago. - -1470 -01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:38,000 -Yeah, it was. - -1471 -01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,000 -I think it was even over two years ago. - -1472 -01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:43,000 -Yeah, you moved to Madera basically or wearing the process. - -1473 -01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:44,000 -And me as well. - -1474 -01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:45,000 -You as well. - -1475 -01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:49,000 -And some other bitcoins were around and Marta and actually had the idea to do like a. - -1476 -01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:54,000 -Yeah, Marta and Andrew talked about doing something and we there a bit kind of academy. - -1477 -01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:55,000 -First made the t-shirts. - -1478 -01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:56,000 -Yeah. - -1479 -01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:57,000 -That said, Madera is going to cut them. - -1480 -01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:58,000 -Yeah. - -1481 -01:10:58,000 --> 01:10:59,000 -Then we put it to the way. - -1482 -01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:00,000 -Yeah. - -1483 -01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:06,000 -And then we put it to the way so many times that we basically rock the people that worry about. - -1484 -01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:09,000 -At the beginning, Marta had a very different idea. - -1485 -01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:10,000 -But we. - -1486 -01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,000 -I think the first question that we asked actually a master. - -1487 -01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:14,000 -I think, or was it still on Twitter? - -1488 -01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:15,000 -I don't know. - -1489 -01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:16,000 -It might have still been on Twitter. - -1490 -01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:17,000 -No way. - -1491 -01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:18,000 -No, it was like. - -1492 -01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:19,000 -Oh, yeah, we did. - -1493 -01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:20,000 -I think it was. - -1494 -01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:24,000 -It was like, if you would want to participate in like something like a bootcamp, - -1495 -01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:27,000 -would you should it focus on BDK? - -1496 -01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:30,000 -Should it focus on LDK or should it focus on NDK? - -1497 -01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,000 -It was like a Bitcoin Lightning Noster. - -1498 -01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:33,000 -Yeah. - -1499 -01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:34,000 -What was the most? - -1500 -01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:38,000 -Like two years ago, what was the interest landscape like? - -1501 -01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:41,000 -It was very heavy on Lightning Noster, interestingly. - -1502 -01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,000 -Yeah. - -1503 -01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:43,000 -No one was interested in BDK. - -1504 -01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:44,000 -Sorry, BDK people. - -1505 -01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:45,000 -It was like a Bitcoin. - -1506 -01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:46,000 -The money is fixed. - -1507 -01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:47,000 -It's done. - -1508 -01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:48,000 -It's done. - -1509 -01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:49,000 -No one needs to BDK anymore. - -1510 -01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:50,000 -We can all supply right now. - -1511 -01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:51,000 -Let's leave the up return. - -1512 -01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:52,000 -Everyone understands it. - -1513 -01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:53,000 -Everyone understands it. - -1514 -01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:55,000 -It's like a shining city in cyberspace. - -1515 -01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:56,000 -It's already built. - -1516 -01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:58,000 -It's got a glow forever. - -1517 -01:11:58,000 --> 01:11:59,000 -Just put all your turn. - -1518 -01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:00,000 -It's amazing. - -1519 -01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,000 -Just buy all the stocks. - -1520 -01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:03,000 -You'll be rich forever. - -1521 -01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:06,000 -It's going to literally go up forever. - -1522 -01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:07,000 -Yeah. - -1523 -01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:08,000 -Anyway. - -1524 -01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:09,000 -OK. - -1525 -01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:11,000 -So BDK, we kind of crossed off the list. - -1526 -01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:13,000 -And then we all premised here. - -1527 -01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:20,000 -And that's what I think when we wrote the majority of what's on the summer engineering website. - -1528 -01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:21,000 -Which is a little bit dated. - -1529 -01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:23,000 -I'm still happy that we did static HTML. - -1530 -01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:25,000 -I'm very happy about that. - -1531 -01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:29,000 -So I zero maintenance, which is what I did. - -1532 -01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:32,000 -So we focused on Lightning Noster. - -1533 -01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:35,000 -And the idea was, OK, the money is fixed. - -1534 -01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:39,000 -And it's kind of fixed the money, fixed the world kind of idea. - -1535 -01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:40,000 -On the side of the world. - -1536 -01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:41,000 -Yeah. - -1537 -01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:46,000 -And now with the money fixed, we don't want to fix the world immediately. - -1538 -01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:47,000 -It's a big task. - -1539 -01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:48,000 -We want to fix the internet. - -1540 -01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:51,000 -So it's fixed the money, money is fixed, fixed the internet. - -1541 -01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:55,000 -And Noster had a big upswing at the time. - -1542 -01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,000 -And I mean, I still have the same opinion. - -1543 -01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:01,000 -But it's like, we're going to rebuild everything on Noster. - -1544 -01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:06,000 -And hopefully, I'm not sure if we managed to do everything exactly right. - -1545 -01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:10,000 -But I hope that we can learn from mistakes of the past and do a better iteration of the internet. - -1546 -01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:14,000 -Like a literally a version two of the internet where Noster is at the base. - -1547 -01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:16,000 -Which means cryptographic identity is at the base. - -1548 -01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:18,000 -Which means it is permissionless by default. - -1549 -01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:22,000 -Which means you don't need to ask someone, can I sign up to this thing? - -1550 -01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:23,000 -But you're just there. - -1551 -01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:24,000 -Just like in Bitcoin. - -1552 -01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:26,000 -You just generate a key and that's it. - -1553 -01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:27,000 -And you'll have money baked in. - -1554 -01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:29,000 -That you have set for real, not just with the IDs. - -1555 -01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:30,000 -Yes. - -1556 -01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:35,000 -Actual cryptographic identities that you can self generate. - -1557 -01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:40,000 -And you hold your own keys, which puts the user, the individual into the center of things. - -1558 -01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:45,000 -Unless someone builds like this idea of putting like an insect bunker idea. - -1559 -01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:48,000 -If I ever meet a guy, I'm going to punch him in the face. - -1560 -01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:51,000 -And I'm saying, oh my god. - -1561 -01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:53,000 -Anyway, touch the stove. - -1562 -01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:54,000 -Touch the stove. - -1563 -01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,000 -You know, you live and learn. - -1564 -01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:57,000 -You live and know. - -1565 -01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:58,000 -It's okay. - -1566 -01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,000 -There was a lesson you weren't published on you. - -1567 -01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:02,000 -Yeah. - -1568 -01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:05,000 -Maybe before we hit the waves, let's turn around together. - -1569 -01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,000 -I've raped enough years already. - -1570 -01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:10,000 -It's a slavery rape. - -1571 -01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:11,000 -We already have all that. - -1572 -01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,000 -You know, that's why you shouldn't rely on the transcript. - -1573 -01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:16,000 -It's like if you go just on the transcript. - -1574 -01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:19,000 -And just like when it's summarized, it's like a slavery. - -1575 -01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:20,000 -It's a good thing we've done. - -1576 -01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:21,000 -Bonitas. - -1577 -01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:22,000 -Yeah. - -1578 -01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:23,000 -You too. - -1579 -01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:24,000 -There's no one to say. - -1580 -01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:26,000 -That's actually a big part of sovereign engineering. - -1581 -01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,000 -No monetization whatsoever. - -1582 -01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:32,000 -So the idea was we want to bring everyone in the same place. - -1583 -01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:33,000 -Poverty. - -1584 -01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:34,000 -Exactly. - -1585 -01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:35,000 -Embrace it. - -1586 -01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:36,000 -Confirmation. - -1587 -01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:37,000 -It's a value for poverty. - -1588 -01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:38,000 -Shared poverty. - -1589 -01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:39,000 -Yeah. - -1590 -01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:43,000 -It's someone made the joke. - -1591 -01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:45,000 -It shouldn't be called value for value. - -1592 -01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:48,000 -It should be called a poor for poor or something like that. - -1593 -01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:51,000 -21 sets circling around. - -1594 -01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:54,000 -But the idea was no monetary incentives. - -1595 -01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:58,000 -Like the whole, the whole, and I think that's still very much true. - -1596 -01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:00,000 -And we're not at the end of this. - -1597 -01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:05,000 -The whole idea of sovereign engineering is to do a massive exploration of the - -1598 -01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:10,000 -Noster space of literally cyberspace that is opened up. - -1599 -01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:12,000 -See, I can't stop quoting sailor. - -1600 -01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:16,000 -Like it's literally a cyberspace is wide open. - -1601 -01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:18,000 -And we have cryptographic identities. - -1602 -01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:20,000 -We have money that actually works. - -1603 -01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:21,000 -We have lightning. - -1604 -01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:22,000 -We have eCache. - -1605 -01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:23,000 -All this stuff works. - -1606 -01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:24,000 -What can we build with it? - -1607 -01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:30,000 -And I think, or we both had the conclusion kind of that any type of monetary incentives - -1608 -01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:32,000 -With kind of screw up the exploratory process. - -1609 -01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:38,000 -If you think about monetizing too early, it just like it gives the weird incentives. - -1610 -01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:42,000 -And so no one is going to get a stamp of approval that you participated. - -1611 -01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:45,000 -No one is going to get like a VC money check or anything. - -1612 -01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:47,000 -No one is going to get any money just for participating. - -1613 -01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:50,000 -You participate because you want to participate. - -1614 -01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:52,000 -And you can hang out with cool people for six weeks. - -1615 -01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:57,000 -And literally discuss any crazy idea without judgment whatsoever. - -1616 -01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:01,000 -Unless it's related to shit-consciousness, you judge you harshly. - -1617 -01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:02,000 -Who am I kidding? - -1618 -01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:03,000 -There's going to be lots of judgment. - -1619 -01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:06,000 -But you still can't discuss absolutely everything. - -1620 -01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,000 -I mean, the judgment is the point. - -1621 -01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:09,000 -The judgment is the point. - -1622 -01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:11,000 -Actually, that's a great point. - -1623 -01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:16,000 -So there's going to be collective shaming and judgment at the end of every week. - -1624 -01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:20,000 -And that's kind of the structure that we landed on is like a weekly structure. - -1625 -01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:23,000 -Where it's like every week is structured in the same way. - -1626 -01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:25,000 -Monday is like a little bit of orientation. - -1627 -01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:29,000 -Tuesday is talks where people can just talk about things that they find interesting - -1628 -01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:30,000 -or they discovered and so on. - -1629 -01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:32,000 -Wednesday is workshops. - -1630 -01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:39,000 -So if you want to show off how to, I don't know, like set up a bit X with like e-cash, - -1631 -01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:41,000 -hash, hash, payouts, whatever. - -1632 -01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:44,000 -You can do that and show that off and how to do that and so on. - -1633 -01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:48,000 -Speaking of which, not to the rail, but ever since I heard about the... - -1634 -01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:50,000 -It's whatever it's called. - -1635 -01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:51,000 -No rail. - -1636 -01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:54,000 -There's only the rail. - -1637 -01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:56,000 -It's only falling. - -1638 -01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:57,000 -Lean into the rail. - -1639 -01:16:57,000 --> 01:16:59,000 -He'd record and we start falling. - -1640 -01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:01,000 -We hallucinate and we the rail. - -1641 -01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:03,000 -And that's also the whole point of sovereign engineer. - -1642 -01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:04,000 -Ha! The first time. - -1643 -01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:05,000 -Yeah. - -1644 -01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:07,000 -It's like you never know where it goes. - -1645 -01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:10,000 -There is no more than a weekly structure. - -1646 -01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:11,000 -There is none. - -1647 -01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:14,000 -You never know, just didn't actually something that nicely. - -1648 -01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:16,000 -Like what is the theme of the next one? - -1649 -01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:19,000 -It's like you find out the theme during the course. - -1650 -01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:20,000 -You never know. - -1651 -01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:21,000 -Which is true. - -1652 -01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:22,000 -How do we say true? - -1653 -01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:23,000 -Yeah. - -1654 -01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:24,000 -Sorry, I derailed. - -1655 -01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:30,000 -No, ever since I saw that idea of the e-cash mining chairs, - -1656 -01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:34,000 -I want to do like nips 61 subs of that. - -1657 -01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:35,000 -All right. - -1658 -01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:36,000 -Can you watch it? - -1659 -01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:37,000 -Of the payouts. - -1660 -01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:38,000 -Okay. - -1661 -01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:39,000 -Yeah. - -1662 -01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:40,000 -Yeah. - -1663 -01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:49,000 -So anyway, the reason why we continue to do it is because it really, really works. - -1664 -01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:53,000 -So we did eight weeks in the beginning. - -1665 -01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:55,000 -We're doing six weeks now. - -1666 -01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:58,000 -Eight weeks was too long because it's super fucking intense. - -1667 -01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:00,000 -So just if you come, know that. - -1668 -01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:01,000 -It's going to be. - -1669 -01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:02,000 -It's going to help. - -1670 -01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:03,000 -It's going to be. - -1671 -01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:05,000 -It's going to be a lot. - -1672 -01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:10,000 -And the reason is because we're always aiming for 21 participants there about. - -1673 -01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:15,000 -And there's really motivated, really smart people coming. - -1674 -01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:16,000 -Always. - -1675 -01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:19,000 -And everyone knows something that you don't. - -1676 -01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:24,000 -That's kind of the whole idea of bringing people together in an intense environment for a long time. - -1677 -01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:28,000 -It's just like a massive learning and experimentation opportunity. - -1678 -01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:33,000 -And the best stuff that we saw so far comes from cross pollination. - -1679 -01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:35,000 -Like literally cross breeding ideas. - -1680 -01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:38,000 -And like someone knows a lot about, I don't know, match networks. - -1681 -01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:39,000 -Someone knows a lot about e-cache. - -1682 -01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:41,000 -Okay, bringing them together, you have toll gate. - -1683 -01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:42,000 -Yeah. - -1684 -01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:46,000 -So that's basically what came out of the, I don't know, was it the second one or the third one? - -1685 -01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:50,000 -It was one of the awesome things that came out of sovereign engineering. - -1686 -01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:53,000 -I should have everything in top of mind, but I absolutely don't. - -1687 -01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:56,000 -It's kind of brained massively. - -1688 -01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:58,000 -I would be walking down under the sun. - -1689 -01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,000 -Very close to heatstroke again. - -1690 -01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:03,000 -But that's where the creative chooses flow most. - -1691 -01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:11,000 -I think a part of it is also like a lot of the ingredients is the fact that it's just kind of chaos. - -1692 -01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:14,000 -So someone is thinking about one thing this week. - -1693 -01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:18,000 -It's not that they care the structure chaos. - -1694 -01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:19,000 -Chaos within bounds. - -1695 -01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:23,000 -Chaos within bounds, because the goal is everyone comes together. - -1696 -01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:25,000 -And we also, like we do what we do now. - -1697 -01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:26,000 -We go on a lot of walks, for example. - -1698 -01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:29,000 -So at least once a week we go on a longer walk. - -1699 -01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:31,000 -Everyone just can't talk about anything. - -1700 -01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:34,000 -And that's where I think the best ideas appear. - -1701 -01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:39,000 -Where it's just like you're talking about whatever idea you had for the last 10 years. - -1702 -01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:41,000 -And you had to splinter in your mind forever. - -1703 -01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:45,000 -And then you just talk about it and talk about it and someone comes up with a solution. - -1704 -01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:53,000 -Yeah, and the thing I think why the walk part works so well is because you cannot be distracted by implementation details. - -1705 -01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:56,000 -Or by looking some specific detail out. - -1706 -01:19:56,000 --> 01:20:05,000 -You are kind of forced to talk more in philosophical terms, in value-based terms, about what to build on the Y. - -1707 -01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:09,000 -And because of the medium, you cannot look at the how. - -1708 -01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:13,000 -And that is kind of, there is a very important space for the how. - -1709 -01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:18,000 -But it's downstream from what is pointing you in that direction. - -1710 -01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:22,000 -It's very much like the best writers of history they always mentioned. - -1711 -01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:24,000 -There's a time to write and there's a time to edit. - -1712 -01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:28,000 -Where it's like you and I think it was Hemingway, like a bright drunk edit sober. - -1713 -01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:29,000 -Just get it all out. - -1714 -01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:31,000 -And then the next day, like sleep on it and then you edit. - -1715 -01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:34,000 -And that's what we do with summer engineering as well. - -1716 -01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:36,000 -Where it's like we get together, we have these crazy ideas. - -1717 -01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:41,000 -And then everyone in their own time or also like in groups we get together and we try to implement the prototype. - -1718 -01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:44,000 -Because Friday, Friday is the most important day. - -1719 -01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:48,000 -So most of the implementation happens like at night or like whatever people have time. - -1720 -01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:49,000 -Or in third time. - -1721 -01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:50,000 -Like in your spare time. - -1722 -01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:53,000 -And on Friday we all meet and Friday is demo day. - -1723 -01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:55,000 -Friday is the to me the most important day. - -1724 -01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:59,000 -Because Friday everyone shows off kind of what whatever experiment, - -1725 -01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:01,000 -whatever thing they built this week. - -1726 -01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:03,000 -And so that's where the judgment comes in. - -1727 -01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:04,000 -Like that. - -1728 -01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:05,000 -We'll have to consider it. - -1729 -01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:06,000 -And it's very. - -1730 -01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:15,000 -No, it's actually amazing what came out of this kind of system thing, whatever. - -1731 -01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:18,000 -Like what came out of the cohorts is like amazing. - -1732 -01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:22,000 -So to me the amount of exploration we've seen. - -1733 -01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:29,000 -I mean we both have been lucky enough to be at every single demo day essentially. - -1734 -01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:30,000 -Yeah. - -1735 -01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:35,000 -And how many different fucking wild and crazy stupid. - -1736 -01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:38,000 -And you have 20 motivated highly skilled people like people like. - -1737 -01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:40,000 -How we shoot at the wall. - -1738 -01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:43,000 -People like Kelly, people like Hazard, people like Justin Moon. - -1739 -01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:50,000 -I mean most of the people we were able to pick and go on walks and have discussions with Paul as well. - -1740 -01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:55,000 -That just 20 of those people trying a new thing every week for six weeks. - -1741 -01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:56,000 -A different thing. - -1742 -01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:57,000 -Yeah. - -1743 -01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:58,000 -A new different thing. - -1744 -01:21:58,000 --> 01:21:59,000 -That's also something we landed on. - -1745 -01:21:59,000 --> 01:22:02,000 -Like we really want to encourage people to try something new every week. - -1746 -01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,000 -And I actually did it myself the last cohort. - -1747 -01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:07,000 -Like I actually demoed something new every single day. - -1748 -01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:08,000 -That's where the pipeline came from. - -1749 -01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:12,000 -Like because I got more efficient with vibe coding. - -1750 -01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:18,000 -And the last three demos I did I just you know like one shot spoke into the mic and then just presented. - -1751 -01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:23,000 -I was actually you know there was some interesting stuff there potentially. - -1752 -01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:26,000 -That someone hopefully will rebuild properly in the future. - -1753 -01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:32,000 -Or like if I if I become a 10 extra doctor as well then maybe I'll rebuild it myself. - -1754 -01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:40,000 -That is the whole point of the system is to get to that point where you can maintain a productive a production quality system. - -1755 -01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:41,000 -Yeah. - -1756 -01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:43,000 -Because it builds itself to that point. - -1757 -01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:47,000 -And so the last one was now how many months ago, three months ago. - -1758 -01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:48,000 -Two months ago. - -1759 -01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:50,000 -Two months ago. - -1760 -01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:51,000 -Something like that. - -1761 -01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:55,000 -And it completely got taken over in the first week actually by vibe coding. - -1762 -01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:56,000 -Yeah. - -1763 -01:22:56,000 --> 01:23:00,000 -So we had never had a single day poll show. - -1764 -01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:01,000 -Yeah. - -1765 -01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:02,000 -Yeah. - -1766 -01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:04,000 -You know what? - -1767 -01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:08,000 -I kind of felt them. - -1768 -01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:13,000 -So I think it was Paul during the workshop for the vibe coding stuff. - -1769 -01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:21,000 -And I came in and I saw the whole room of people and it looked like a senior's club. - -1770 -01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:23,000 -Where they were learning about the internet. - -1771 -01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:24,000 -Yeah. - -1772 -01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:26,000 -How to send an email. - -1773 -01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:27,000 -Yeah. - -1774 -01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:28,000 -Yeah. - -1775 -01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:32,000 -Very few people were exposed to proper vibe coding back then. - -1776 -01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:36,000 -And now of course you know it's absolutely everywhere. - -1777 -01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:39,000 -We are two people that are heavily leaning into it. - -1778 -01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:45,000 -And that's why the theme of the next one, the fifth one is going to be yellow mode. - -1779 -01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:52,000 -Because like kind of we hope to encourage people to really experiment with all that stuff. - -1780 -01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:54,000 -And like stop riding your own code. - -1781 -01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:55,000 -Never look at the code. - -1782 -01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:56,000 -Stop reading code. - -1783 -01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:57,000 -You don't need to understand stuff. - -1784 -01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:58,000 -Just pure vibes. - -1785 -01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:04,000 -Just because the most important thing is going to be to figure out what to build. - -1786 -01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:05,000 -Like the why? - -1787 -01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:07,000 -Why build that stuff in the first place? - -1788 -01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:10,000 -If you can't build anything, like why build the thing? - -1789 -01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:11,000 -Yeah. - -1790 -01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:12,000 -What makes it valuable? - -1791 -01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:17,000 -And I think the most important part is going to be kind of the system architecture in some sense. - -1792 -01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:23,000 -Like you will have to have some say of like how this is going to work. - -1793 -01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:34,000 -Because just like in the Bitcoin world for example, the reason why the system is built in such a complicated weird way is because of the values it wants to represent. - -1794 -01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:37,000 -Otherwise, like there's a million. - -1795 -01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:39,000 -It's optimizing for the right thing. - -1796 -01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:40,000 -Exactly. - -1797 -01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:42,000 -Knowing what the right thing is is the thing. - -1798 -01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:44,000 -It's optimizing for self sovereignty. - -1799 -01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:45,000 -Yes. - -1800 -01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:49,000 -And that's also why our whole thing is called sovereign engineering because that's what we want to optimize for. - -1801 -01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:55,000 -We want to empower users and we want to optimize for self sovereignty in all the things that we built. - -1802 -01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:59,000 -And that's why everything we want to build, we want to build in this period of Bitcoin basically. - -1803 -01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:02,000 -And so just to mention some highlights that came out of like the first cohort for example. - -1804 -01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:05,000 -Blossom came out of the first cohort. - -1805 -01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:07,000 -So I think one of the greatest success stories. - -1806 -01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:09,000 -Because now it's integrated everywhere. - -1807 -01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:11,000 -I'm so happy about that. - -1808 -01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:13,000 -Great name by the way. - -1809 -01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:14,000 -No idea who came up with it. - -1810 -01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:15,000 -But fantastic name. - -1811 -01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:17,000 -Couldn't be a better name. - -1812 -01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:21,000 -Nip16, Nip61 came out of the cohorts. - -1813 -01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:25,000 -Wiki Freedia came out of the cohorts. - -1814 -01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:27,000 -I already mentioned Tolgate. - -1815 -01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:31,000 -And site came out of it still underutilized but getting there. - -1816 -01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:32,000 -It's going to get there. - -1817 -01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:33,000 -No. - -1818 -01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:36,000 -Someone just wasn't it an MKStax thing. - -1819 -01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:42,000 -And some sandwich published build like an insight with a Y. - -1820 -01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:43,000 -That looks very good. - -1821 -01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:44,000 -Yeah. - -1822 -01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:47,000 -And we had some really good people there all around. - -1823 -01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:49,000 -They're not like part of this group. - -1824 -01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:54,000 -But we'll have we're again aiming for like 50% repeat participants, 50% new people thereabouts. - -1825 -01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:59,000 -So if they have a friend that might you know be interested in all this stuff and coming. - -1826 -01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:00,000 -Like tell your friends. - -1827 -01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:01,000 -Yeah. - -1828 -01:26:01,000 --> 01:26:08,000 -And if you were to summarize it with like elevator pitch, the one shot of what it is. - -1829 -01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:09,000 -Oh my lord. - -1830 -01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:10,000 -One shot. - -1831 -01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:16,000 -I would say it's still an experiment. - -1832 -01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:22,000 -But I would say it's an already successful experiment in exploration and ideation in the world of - -1833 -01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:25,000 -software and technology. - -1834 -01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:28,000 -Because I would say it's more than that. - -1835 -01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:30,000 -Like we had match network stuff. - -1836 -01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:31,000 -We had other stuff. - -1837 -01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:34,000 -Like I you know did the workshop on sync thing for example. - -1838 -01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:36,000 -Doesn't have to do anything. - -1839 -01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:37,000 -Noster Bitcoin lightning. - -1840 -01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:39,000 -But it's the same thing. - -1841 -01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:48,000 -And we talked also like that's why we the reason why we started the no solutions thing was because we had these kind of conversations all the time. - -1842 -01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:51,000 -Like every day when there's some engineering going on. - -1843 -01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:53,000 -Every day you're going to have lunch with someone. - -1844 -01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:55,000 -You're going to go on a walk with someone. - -1845 -01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:56,000 -We're going to do some activity. - -1846 -01:26:56,000 --> 01:26:58,000 -We're going to be on a boat or whatever. - -1847 -01:26:58,000 --> 01:26:59,000 -We're going to go to the pilot. - -1848 -01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:00,000 -Oh yeah. - -1849 -01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:05,000 -That's the other thing that came out that I'm actually going to start using for some project that came out of the boat. - -1850 -01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:09,000 -This idea of on your routing based on Noster which is like a tour. - -1851 -01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:11,000 -But way faster. - -1852 -01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:12,000 -Way fucking faster. - -1853 -01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:13,000 -Yeah. - -1854 -01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:18,000 -So I'm going to I might put this in the show notes like the best of the stuff that came out of it. - -1855 -01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:23,000 -But just to give you an idea like actual or to give everyone an idea like actual usable stuff. - -1856 -01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:30,000 -That is kind of you know like not steps and all those kind of things it's like it's everywhere and it's like. - -1857 -01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:32,000 -And again like the blossom stuff and so on it's. - -1858 -01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:34,000 -And I'm forgetting half the things. - -1859 -01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:35,000 -Oh you know. - -1860 -01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:41,000 -So so we landed on some really. - -1861 -01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:49,000 -Interesting ideas and they were implemented and they worked and they are adopted by the actual marketplace so to speak like the marketplace of ideas at least. - -1862 -01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:51,000 -And people actually use it and it makes me very happy. - -1863 -01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:53,000 -And so the back to the elevator pitch. - -1864 -01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:57,000 -So I think I think it's again it's still an experiment. - -1865 -01:27:57,000 --> 01:28:00,000 -In the sense also that because there is no monetization whatsoever. - -1866 -01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:02,000 -Everyone comes there on their own diet. - -1867 -01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:09,000 -You know like it's we're happy to help with organizational stuff and how to get rooms and all those kind of things and blah blah blah. - -1868 -01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:13,000 -But you know we don't make any money of it. - -1869 -01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:16,000 -No one makes any money of it. - -1870 -01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:19,000 -And we just do it because we want to see awesome stuff being built. - -1871 -01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:20,000 -Yeah. - -1872 -01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:25,000 -And I think there is still so much room to build awesome stuff. - -1873 -01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:29,000 -And just the fact that become works. - -1874 -01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:32,000 -You know we have lightning and it really works. - -1875 -01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:38,000 -Like I just had this post recently because I was so annoyed by all the people just being mad about everything at all times. - -1876 -01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:40,000 -Like everything's amazing and no one's happy right. - -1877 -01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:45,000 -And it's like we're on Madera like that should be clear as well. - -1878 -01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:48,000 -I hope there's a parent from the server engineering home page as well. - -1879 -01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:49,000 -So it is in Madera. - -1880 -01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:52,000 -And the awesome thing is like you can pay with Bitcoin like almost everywhere. - -1881 -01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:53,000 -Yeah. - -1882 -01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:54,000 -It's like fantastic. - -1883 -01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:56,000 -And that's what I do all day every day. - -1884 -01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:59,000 -And so I pay for breakfast lunch and dinner with with Bitcoin. - -1885 -01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:02,000 -And it's just like it's all just scan a QR code and that's what I mentioned yesterday. - -1886 -01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:04,000 -You know go to the dentist. - -1887 -01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:05,000 -Pay in lightning. - -1888 -01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:07,000 -Go to the fucking barber. - -1889 -01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:08,000 -Pay with e-cache. - -1890 -01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:09,000 -Like it doesn't matter. - -1891 -01:29:09,000 --> 01:29:11,000 -You can use whatever wallet it's like all it all fucking works. - -1892 -01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:12,000 -You know. - -1893 -01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:14,000 -And so we are living in the future here. - -1894 -01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:17,000 -And that's another part I think that's awesome about the six weeks. - -1895 -01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:19,000 -Like Tim Boma for example when he built a safe box. - -1896 -01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:24,000 -Like that's also something that was built during the server engineering or built out at least. - -1897 -01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:30,000 -He blew his own mind by implementing an e-cache wallet from scratch basically. - -1898 -01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:34,000 -And going through the coffee shop and paying with it. - -1899 -01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:37,000 -With the thing that you just built yesterday. - -1900 -01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:42,000 -You just go and you spend your e-cache on coffee and it works and you get a coffee and everything works. - -1901 -01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:46,000 -And that's such a cool experience to have also. - -1902 -01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:50,000 -And just kind of you know really experimenting with all the stuff that you're building out. - -1903 -01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:56,000 -And you know when Kelly was here he did the e-cache invoices. - -1904 -01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:57,000 -And so on. - -1905 -01:29:57,000 --> 01:29:58,000 -And now with the e-c. - -1906 -01:29:58,000 --> 01:29:59,000 -Yeah. - -1907 -01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:00,000 -Exactly. - -1908 -01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:03,000 -And you know now with the molding out payments for example. - -1909 -01:30:03,000 --> 01:30:09,000 -You can actually go anywhere and get a hair count and pay with you know for multiple mints and all those kind of things. - -1910 -01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:10,000 -And so that's what we have. - -1911 -01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:11,000 -What server engineering is about. - -1912 -01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:13,000 -We want to come up with new ideas. - -1913 -01:30:13,000 --> 01:30:15,000 -We want to implement them straight away. - -1914 -01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:16,000 -We want to show it to everyone. - -1915 -01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:17,000 -Oh yeah. - -1916 -01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:18,000 -That's the other thing. - -1917 -01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:19,000 -We want to discuss it. - -1918 -01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:20,000 -The emote is demoing software. - -1919 -01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:21,000 -Yes. - -1920 -01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:22,000 -Which is what's interesting. - -1921 -01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:24,000 -It is just where sucks if it's broken. - -1922 -01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:25,000 -Yes. - -1923 -01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:26,000 -It doesn't matter. - -1924 -01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:27,000 -No. - -1925 -01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:28,000 -If we see a slide you'll get shot on site. - -1926 -01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:29,000 -100%. - -1927 -01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:32,000 -It has to be a demo of something that you actually built. - -1928 -01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:34,000 -Or the LLM built. - -1929 -01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:35,000 -Yeah. - -1930 -01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:36,000 -Same. - -1931 -01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:37,000 -Same. - -1932 -01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:38,000 -Same. - -1933 -01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:39,000 -One of your slaves built. - -1934 -01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:40,000 -That's fine. - -1935 -01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:41,000 -Big fans of slavery. - -1936 -01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:42,000 -So yeah that's about it kind of. - -1937 -01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:43,000 -I don't know. - -1938 -01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:44,000 -It was a very long elevator pitch. - -1939 -01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:45,000 -But it's very hard to. - -1940 -01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:46,000 -It's very hard. - -1941 -01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:47,000 -And maybe it's a long elevator. - -1942 -01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:48,000 -You know. - -1943 -01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:49,000 -We're in a space elevator. - -1944 -01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:50,000 -We're in a space elevator. - -1945 -01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:51,000 -A very slow one. - -1946 -01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:52,000 -Maybe it's got stuck. - -1947 -01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:53,000 -Yeah. - -1948 -01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:54,000 -You never know. - -1949 -01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:55,000 -But yeah. - -1950 -01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:56,000 -That's kind of it. - -1951 -01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:58,000 -And every week is the same kind of like same structure. - -1952 -01:30:58,000 --> 01:30:59,000 -Again. - -1953 -01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:00,000 -Like Monday. - -1954 -01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:01,000 -It's like Monday mornings. - -1955 -01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:02,000 -It's like orientation. - -1956 -01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:03,000 -Tuesday talks. - -1957 -01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:04,000 -Wednesday workshops. - -1958 -01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:05,000 -Thursdays off. - -1959 -01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:06,000 -So Thursdays kind of. - -1960 -01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:08,000 -Thursdays where you built in time. - -1961 -01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:09,000 -Yeah. - -1962 -01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:10,000 -We do the microphone. - -1963 -01:31:10,000 --> 01:31:11,000 -Friday demo day. - -1964 -01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:13,000 -Like Friday is the most important one. - -1965 -01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:14,000 -We'll have a nice barbecue. - -1966 -01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:16,000 -And we try to have the time as well. - -1967 -01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:17,000 -Yeah. - -1968 -01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:19,000 -There's always something to eat around. - -1969 -01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:20,000 -And yeah. - -1970 -01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:22,000 -And on the weekends we'll also do something. - -1971 -01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:25,000 -Like we'll go on a hike or we'll go out with a boat or we'll do whatever. - -1972 -01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:26,000 -We did many things. - -1973 -01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:27,000 -Like we went climbing ones. - -1974 -01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:28,000 -Like people went go karting. - -1975 -01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:29,000 -All kinds of shit. - -1976 -01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:30,000 -Like whatever. - -1977 -01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:32,000 -We try to do whatever fastest conversation. - -1978 -01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:35,000 -So we try to do whatever brings people together. - -1979 -01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:37,000 -And where you can have free flow and conversation. - -1980 -01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:40,000 -And that's also like, I mean, no solutions. - -1981 -01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:42,000 -It's also something that came out of sovereign engineering. - -1982 -01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:46,000 -Because we were like always, you know, walking up and down and going on a hike. - -1983 -01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:48,000 -And just talking about those things. - -1984 -01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:50,000 -And it was always, we always had novel insights. - -1985 -01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:54,000 -And like the conversation always will take you somewhere where you never thought it would go. - -1986 -01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:57,000 -And we were like, okay, we should open this up and just record some of them. - -1987 -01:31:57,000 --> 01:31:58,000 -And so on. - -1988 -01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:00,000 -And just do this from time to time. - -1989 -01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:01,000 -Yeah. - -1990 -01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:04,000 -And because that's kind of the to bring it back to the very beginning. - -1991 -01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:06,000 -Where it's like, okay, at least we know our flaws. - -1992 -01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:08,000 -And we are really bad at explaining sovereign engineering. - -1993 -01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:12,000 -We're really bad at kind of, you know, letting people know that this exists. - -1994 -01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:14,000 -We're really bad at five tweets. - -1995 -01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:18,000 -I'm not explaining our thinking around things, including sovereign engineering. - -1996 -01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:19,000 -Yeah. - -1997 -01:32:19,000 --> 01:32:20,000 -Yeah. - -1998 -01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:23,000 -Because we have these conversations and we explore a bunch of different ideas. - -1999 -01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:25,000 -And then we just kind of keep it to the box. - -2000 -01:32:25,000 --> 01:32:27,000 -Yeah, I'll never sit down and write about it. - -2001 -01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:28,000 -And write about it. - -2002 -01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:29,000 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -2003 -01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:31,000 -It's like that's everything, you know. - -2004 -01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:33,000 -I'm no point to think. - -2005 -01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:37,000 -I'm a little bit of a fighting figure. - -2006 -01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:38,000 -We're both to blame. - -2007 -01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:41,000 -And anyway, like maybe hopefully that's useful. - -2008 -01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,000 -I'll run the whole transcript through an LLM. - -2009 -01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:44,000 -And that will generate you. - -2010 -01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:45,000 -And say no, we'll come out. - -2011 -01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:47,000 -The shining city in cyberspace. - -2012 -01:32:47,000 --> 01:32:48,000 -That's would be so funny. - -2013 -01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:51,000 -Like I'll let I'll rebuild the website. - -2014 -01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:54,000 -And it will just be a shining city in cyberspace. - -2015 -01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:59,000 -Anyway, it's if you if you listen to every single no solutions conversation, - -2016 -01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:00,000 -you should get an idea. - -2017 -01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:04,000 -Yeah, you'll have a very good idea of the inside engineering is about. - -2018 -01:33:04,000 --> 01:33:05,000 -And what to expect. - -2019 -01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:06,000 -And so on. - -2020 -01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:07,000 -So there shouldn't be any surprises. - -2021 -01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:13,000 -But that's also like, you know, who's going to listen to 15 hours of like waves and street sounds. - -2022 -01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:14,000 -I'm talking. - -2023 -01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:17,000 -So you really have to want it. - -2024 -01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:22,000 -But in our defense, we also we really want to have the people here that really want to be here. - -2025 -01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:26,000 -So again, if you're interested in in Nostar, if you want to try something new, - -2026 -01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:31,000 -if you want to meet the best people in the space and just, you know, experiment with. - -2027 -01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:33,000 -Ekash, Nostar lighting stuff. - -2028 -01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:34,000 -What have you? - -2029 -01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:36,000 -It's it's a fantastic place to be. - -2030 -01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:38,000 -Madera is beautiful. - -2031 -01:33:38,000 --> 01:33:39,000 -Food is great. - -2032 -01:33:39,000 --> 01:33:42,000 -Weather is like 21 degrees centigrade all year round. - -2033 -01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:45,000 -It's like fantastic in terms of climate, all those kind of things. - -2034 -01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:47,000 -It's kids friendly. - -2035 -01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:49,000 -People brought their families as well. - -2036 -01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:52,000 -You know, we're here with our families as well. - -2037 -01:33:52,000 --> 01:33:55,000 -And yeah, that's kind of it. - -2038 -01:33:55,000 --> 01:34:03,000 -And in the, I actually said this as a send off on the very first podcast that you and me recorded together in Francis' place. - -2039 -01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:04,000 -Remember? - -2040 -01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:05,000 -Okay. - -2041 -01:34:05,000 --> 01:34:06,000 -I do remember. - -2042 -01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:07,000 -Yeah, yeah, yeah. - -2043 -01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:08,000 -I do remember. - -2044 -01:34:08,000 --> 01:34:09,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -2045 -01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:12,000 -What I had in mind at that point and I kind of still think that that's in Costa Rica. - -2046 -01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:13,000 -That was in Costa Rica. - -2047 -01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:14,000 -That was in Costa Rica. - -2048 -01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:15,000 -Yeah, that's how a while ago. - -2049 -01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:23,000 -Is that there is a lot of value and kind of fits perfect with Yolomode. - -2050 -01:34:23,000 --> 01:34:29,000 -There is a lot of value in just making a wild decision that can completely change. - -2051 -01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:31,000 -It has the opportunity of changing your life. - -2052 -01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:33,000 -And it's a fucking one decision away. - -2053 -01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:35,000 -It is literally just making the decision. - -2054 -01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:38,000 -Then there is a to the least after that decision. - -2055 -01:34:38,000 --> 01:34:41,000 -But coming on participating in something like summer engineering. - -2056 -01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:44,000 -How many people have told you and me? - -2057 -01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:45,000 -It changed their life. - -2058 -01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:46,000 -Oh, absolutely. - -2059 -01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:48,000 -Many people quit their job and went full time. - -2060 -01:34:48,000 --> 01:34:49,000 -Full retirement. - -2061 -01:34:49,000 --> 01:34:50,000 -Full on retirement. - -2062 -01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:52,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -2063 -01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:55,000 -And you know, they're still alive and can fit themselves. - -2064 -01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:56,000 -I mean, kind of. - -2065 -01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:57,000 -Yeah. - -2066 -01:34:57,000 --> 01:34:59,000 -I mean, Bully for value. - -2067 -01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:00,000 -Yeah. - -2068 -01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:01,000 -They fit themselves. - -2069 -01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:05,000 -You know, they set each other set with us. - -2070 -01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:10,000 -But it's literally you listen to a podcast and you say you know what? - -2071 -01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:11,000 -Fuck it. - -2072 -01:35:11,000 --> 01:35:12,000 -I'm going to do it. - -2073 -01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:13,000 -Yeah. - -2074 -01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:14,000 -Yeah. - -2075 -01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:16,000 -That's what Justin did when he came. - -2076 -01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:17,000 -And I'm going to. - -2077 -01:35:17,000 --> 01:35:22,000 -I'm literally going to quote I'm literally going to quote him on the new website. - -2078 -01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:24,000 -It was like, I'm surprised. - -2079 -01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:25,000 -I'm still here. - -2080 -01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:26,000 -Justin Moon. - -2081 -01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:27,000 -Week six. - -2082 -01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:32,000 -He changed his flight like three times or so because he wanted to stay for one week. - -2083 -01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:33,000 -And then it became two weeks. - -2084 -01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:35,000 -And he stayed for the whole six weeks. - -2085 -01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:36,000 -And he's coming back. - -2086 -01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,000 -So we must do something right. - -2087 -01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:41,000 -And that's also one thing maybe worth mentioning. - -2088 -01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:43,000 -Like the first three cohorts. - -2089 -01:35:43,000 --> 01:35:47,000 -We burned ourselves to a crisp because we did everything at all times. - -2090 -01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:48,000 -Yes. - -2091 -01:35:48,000 --> 01:35:51,000 -And now we got better at delegating like again, back to slavery. - -2092 -01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:53,000 -That's going to be the theme of everything. - -2093 -01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:55,000 -Very slavery is going to be the theme of the next cohort. - -2094 -01:35:55,000 --> 01:35:56,000 -You know. - -2095 -01:35:56,000 --> 01:35:57,000 -It's either Mark Yolo mode. - -2096 -01:35:57,000 --> 01:35:58,000 -It emerges. - -2097 -01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:03,000 -And so every week, like we'll have six weeks. - -2098 -01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:07,000 -We also have one week where we won't have fixed programming. - -2099 -01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:09,000 -So a little bit of a break in between. - -2100 -01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:12,000 -And every week, it's going to have a different cap. - -2101 -01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:16,000 -So those are like veterans. - -2102 -01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:19,000 -Alumni that went through the program some of the multiple times. - -2103 -01:36:19,000 --> 01:36:24,000 -And they are going to, you know, make sure that the whole organizational structure works. - -2104 -01:36:24,000 --> 01:36:25,000 -And everyone knows what to do. - -2105 -01:36:25,000 --> 01:36:26,000 -And so on. - -2106 -01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:29,000 -Because otherwise, I just, you know, like I burn out and go insane. - -2107 -01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:31,000 -But that was a great choice. - -2108 -01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:32,000 -It worked perfectly the last time. - -2109 -01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:33,000 -And we're going to do that again. - -2110 -01:36:33,000 --> 01:36:35,000 -I think it worked even better. - -2111 -01:36:35,000 --> 01:36:36,000 -Yeah. - -2112 -01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:37,000 -No, it was really, really good. - -2113 -01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:41,000 -Because everyone will bring their own perspective and have their own spin on things. - -2114 -01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:42,000 -On energy. - -2115 -01:36:42,000 --> 01:36:43,000 -Yeah, exactly. - -2116 -01:36:43,000 --> 01:36:44,000 -And they really go in full. - -2117 -01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:45,000 -Emphasize different things. - -2118 -01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:46,000 -Yeah. - -2119 -01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:50,000 -Because, you know, like I'm, you know, if I'm out there and standing in front of people, - -2120 -01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:53,000 -I will just always repeat the same line, which is like shining stadium cyberspace. - -2121 -01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:55,000 -And quote Taylor all the time. - -2122 -01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:57,000 -And that's, that's also not good. - -2123 -01:36:57,000 --> 01:36:59,000 -That's like. - -2124 -01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:05,000 -So it's better if like Justin or Cali or Aryan or whoever is out there. - -2125 -01:37:05,000 --> 01:37:09,000 -And just talking about something else in the MSTR. - -2126 -01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:11,000 -Well, yeah, that's about it. - -2127 -01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:13,000 -I think I hope that was useful. - -2128 -01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:14,000 -Yeah, I have one. - -2129 -01:37:14,000 --> 01:37:15,000 -It was useful for me. - -2130 -01:37:15,000 --> 01:37:16,000 -Yeah. - -2131 -01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:19,000 -I have one more thing that just came to me. - -2132 -01:37:19,000 --> 01:37:24,000 -Is that I think something like this is become like some engineer. - -2133 -01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:26,000 -It's becoming increasingly important. - -2134 -01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:32,000 -Because we are completely in the age of you can build anything and everything. - -2135 -01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:36,000 -And what to build becomes all the more important. - -2136 -01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:39,000 -Why, why build anything at all? - -2137 -01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:41,000 -If you can't build absolutely everything, why build? - -2138 -01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:42,000 -No, no, no. - -2139 -01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:43,000 -Well, yeah. - -2140 -01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:44,000 -No, no, no, everything. - -2141 -01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:45,000 -Yeah, you're right. - -2142 -01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:46,000 -What, you can build anything. - -2143 -01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:49,000 -No, I'm, I'm obviously being for Jesus, but that's where it's trending. - -2144 -01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:51,000 -And that's kind of the question everyone should ask themselves. - -2145 -01:37:51,000 --> 01:37:52,000 -Right. - -2146 -01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:53,000 -Yeah, yeah. - -2147 -01:37:53,000 --> 01:37:55,000 -So that kind of question is what we explore. - -2148 -01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:56,000 -Yeah. - -2149 -01:37:56,000 --> 01:37:57,000 -That's a very engineering. - -2150 -01:37:57,000 --> 01:37:59,000 -Why building, why build this thing? - -2151 -01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:01,000 -Why put, because I think. - -2152 -01:38:01,000 --> 01:38:03,000 -How should the future look like in some sense? - -2153 -01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:04,000 -In Europe. - -2154 -01:38:04,000 --> 01:38:05,000 -How do you want the future to look like? - -2155 -01:38:05,000 --> 01:38:06,000 -Exactly, exactly. - -2156 -01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:07,000 -And work for that. - -2157 -01:38:07,000 --> 01:38:08,000 -Exactly. - -2158 -01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:09,000 -And build or stand. - -2159 -01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:10,000 -Yeah, and build accordingly. - -2160 -01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:16,000 -Because I think it's all going to come down to, to, to taste. - -2161 -01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:17,000 -And caring. - -2162 -01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:18,000 -What do you care about? - -2163 -01:38:18,000 --> 01:38:19,000 -Absolutely. - -2164 -01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:20,000 -Yeah. - -2165 -01:38:20,000 --> 01:38:21,000 -Tastes and melis. - -2166 -01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:22,000 -Yeah. - -2167 -01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:23,000 -Exactly. - -2168 -01:38:23,000 --> 01:38:24,000 -Carrying is actually a great point. - -2169 -01:38:24,000 --> 01:38:26,000 -That's a, by the way, to quote Verakie again. - -2170 -01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:28,000 -That's the distinction between humans and Allah lambs. - -2171 -01:38:28,000 --> 01:38:30,000 -Allah lambs don't care about the information they are processing. - -2172 -01:38:30,000 --> 01:38:31,000 -We do. - -2173 -01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:32,000 -Yes. - -2174 -01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:34,000 -And it is because we're embodied and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. - -2175 -01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:36,000 -But I talked about the body mental last five times. - -2176 -01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:37,000 -We talked, I think. - -2177 -01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:40,000 -I'm focusing on the shining city in cyberspace today. - -2178 -01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:41,000 -So there are no bodies. - -2179 -01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:42,000 -There are just slaves. - -2180 -01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:44,000 -The non-embodied slaves. - -2181 -01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:47,000 -They're going to, it's going to be glorious. - -2182 -01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:49,000 -But, yeah. - -2183 -01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:50,000 -Any last words? - -2184 -01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:51,000 -No. - -2185 -01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:55,000 -I gave like six times my, my last words. - -2186 -01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:58,000 -I think I have, I'm out of ideas and I'm. - -2187 -01:38:58,000 --> 01:38:59,000 -Fantastic. - -2188 -01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:02,000 -Now let's drink something, let's eat something. - -2189 -01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:03,000 -That was good. - -2190 -01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:04,000 -That was good. - -2191 -01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:05,000 -All right. - -2192 -01:39:05,000 --> 01:39:08,000 -One more snap. - -2193 -01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:09,000 -We can do it. - diff --git a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/transcription-errors.txt b/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/transcription-errors.txt deleted file mode 100644 index 14d2cf1f..00000000 --- a/src/data/no-solutions-transcripts/transcription-errors.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,9 +0,0 @@ -Fiat Jeff => fiatjaf -Fia Jeff => fiatjaf -Fia, Jeff => fiatjaf -Haudelwald => hodlbod -Noster => nostr -Nostra => nostr -Cash up => CashApp -pauky => pubkey -end pub => npub diff --git a/src/data/showcaseProjects.json b/src/data/showcaseProjects.json index 623fcb7c..5c0c0881 100644 --- a/src/data/showcaseProjects.json +++ b/src/data/showcaseProjects.json @@ -746,7 +746,7 @@ "cohort": "SEC-04", "link": "https://github.com/pablof7z/tenex", "linkText": "github.com/pablof7z/tenex", - "logo": "/images/showcase/tenex-logo.png", + "logo": "/images/showcase/tenex-logo.webp", "highlight": false }, { diff --git a/src/layouts/components/ImageMod.astro b/src/layouts/components/ImageMod.astro index a5847987..3954f57b 100644 --- a/src/layouts/components/ImageMod.astro +++ b/src/layouts/components/ImageMod.astro @@ -32,7 +32,7 @@ const { const src = `/public${srcProp}`; // Glob pattern to load images from the /public/images folder -const images = import.meta.glob("/public/images/**/*.{jpeg,jpg,png,gif}"); +const images = import.meta.glob("/public/images/**/*.{jpeg,jpg,png,gif,webp}"); // Check if the source path is valid const isValidPath = images[src] ? true : false; diff --git a/src/layouts/partials/CallToAction.astro b/src/layouts/partials/CallToAction.astro index 1c33abd5..1f94fcf9 100644 --- a/src/layouts/partials/CallToAction.astro +++ b/src/layouts/partials/CallToAction.astro @@ -1,7 +1,17 @@ --- -import ImageMod from "@/components/ImageMod.astro"; +import { Image } from "astro:assets"; +import type { ImageMetadata } from "astro"; import { markdownify } from "@/lib/utils/textConverter"; +import menWantedImage from "@/assets/images/men-wanted.png"; + const { call_to_action } = Astro.props; + +// Map content paths to imported images +const imageMap: Record = { + "/images/men-wanted.png": menWantedImage, +}; + +const resolvedImage = imageMap[call_to_action.data.image] || null; --- { @@ -16,14 +26,16 @@ const { call_to_action } = Astro.props; rel="noopener noreferrer" class="block" > - + {resolvedImage && ( + Vintage recruitment poster encouraging applications + )}